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[The Elder King]

um, disgrace? that's the exaggeration.

 

To be honest, Dragon Age 2 was in a league of its own. You either get it or you don't. I'm disappointed people didn't realize its quality and they'll never have that kind of quality writing again.

 

 

It took me a little while to get that.  Eventually I did.  Then I started to have fun with it and eventually enjoyed the game.  The writing rocks.  The environments, well, they could do better. 

I partially disagree. There were parts with good writing, but the third act is (in my opinion) bad. It's clearly the part of the game (in term of writing) that is most affected by the limited development time, so it's not exactly the fault of the writers, but it's still the weakest part of the game.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Who else hears Laura Bailey's voice in their head?

 

I hear Laura Bailey's voice everywhere. 

 

Should probably get that seen too...

[Laughing_Man]

Considering your opinion of Bioware (or at least yours since their acquisitions, since you keep calling it EAware)/EA, wouldn't you expect the game or their following games to not be that good anyway?

 

At the very least, I expect a game priced at AAA levels and produced by one of the top gaming mega corps not to be rushed to the point that they had to re-use the same dungeon and the same warehouse 20 times, I also expect it not to be full of bugs.

 

um, disgrace? that's the exaggeration.

 

To be honest, Dragon Age 2 was in a league of its own. You either get it or you don't. I'm disappointed people didn't realize its quality and they'll never have that kind of quality writing again.

 

Is a disgrace too bad of a word for you? I'm not really picky. It certainly wasn't good. I think that you are simply nostalgic about it.

 

The art style was dumb strange for the setting. Disney!Darkspawn were terribad. The Elves re-make was horrifying. The story didn't make sense at a few key points, notably the endings where you had to fight both Orsino and Meredith no matter what you chose IIRC. It had other problems, but I won't go into it here and continue derailing the thread.

 

It did have good elements too, Sarcastic Hawke is probably my favorite protagonist ever.

And the idea of not being the "chosen one" and making your own fortune was positively refreshing. (a shame it also came with the curse of fail-in-everything)

[The Elder King]

At the very least, I expect a game priced at AAA levels and produced by one of the top gaming mega corps not to be rushed to the point that they had to re-use the same dungeon and the same warehouse 20 times, I also expect it not to be full of bugs.

 

 

Is a disgrace too bad of a word for you? I'm not really picky. It certainly wasn't good. I think that you are simply nostalgic about it.

 

The art style was dumb strange for the setting. Disney!Darkspawn were terribad. The Elves re-make was horrifying. The story didn't make sense at a few key points, notably the endings where you had to fight both Orsino and Meredith no matter what you chose IIRC. It had other problems, but I won't go into it here and continue derailing the thread.

 

It did have good elements too, Sarcastic Hawke is probably my favorite protagonist ever.

And the idea of not being the "chosen one" and making your own fortune was positively refreshing. (a shame it also came with the curse of fail-in-everything)

1) I agree on that. But with the one year of dev time I think we should've expected that this could've happened. Not that it justifies Bioware or EA in this regards (I recall the latter kind of prompt them to release DA2 early after DAO's success), but I think lowering the expectations would've been best. Same goes for bug and glitches, though to be fair from that point it seems Bioware increased the number of unresolves glitches and bugs in their games, regardless of the development time. The should definitely step up in this, but sadly it seems the norm in this years to release games with tons of bugs/glitchs and fix then with a lot of patches.

 

2)I don't think it's necessarily nostalgia. People values different situations differently. The pros of DA2 might outweight for some people the cons of DA2, so they have a better opinion of it. Same goes for the opposite. Plus, there are several features that some people might consider cons and others might consider as pros.

The nonsense of the double fight made me laugh hard when I saw it the first time. It's a bit worse in the templar one since you have already technically 'won', while in the mage route Orsino goes crazy in the middle of it.

[LinksOcarina]

1) I agree on that. But with the one year of dev time I think we should've expected that this could've happened. Not that it justifies Bioware or EA in this regards (I recall the latter kind of prompt them to release DA2 early after DAO's success), but I think lowering the expectations would've been best. Same goes for bug and glitches, though to be fair from that point it seems Bioware increased the number of unresolves glitches and bugs in their games, regardless of the development time. The should definitely step up in this, but sadly it seems the norm in this years to release games with tons of bugs/glitchs and fix then with a lot of patches.

 

2)I don't think it's necessarily nostalgia. People values different situations differently. The pros of DA2 might outweight for some people the cons of DA2, so they have a better opinion of it. Same goes for the opposite. Plus, there are several features that some people might consider cons and others might consider as pros.

The nonsense of the double fight made me laugh hard when I saw it the first time. It's a bit worse in the templar one since you have already technically 'won', while in the mage route Orsino goes crazy in the middle of it.

 

Much like how people value Inquisition More or less based on said opinions.

 

You are right, the 3rd Act is the weakest act in the end, but it is certainly not unsalvageable either. Considering the high tension of that point, the biggest problem was not letting it simmer a bit longer, maybe even a longer questline with Anders. 

 

I still maintain that if a 18 month development time only yields us a mediocre game that is, for all intents and purposes, still better than some AAA titles with 2-3 years of dev time, is higher praise for BioWare's ability as developers in the end. I agree it's not the best looking or best paced game, but it is still among the best story-driven, personal RPG's on the market.

 

I can only hope that we see something like that with Andromeda. I doubt that is the case. 

[goishen]

I partially disagree. There were parts with good writing, but the third act is (in my opinion) bad. It's clearly the part of the game (in term of writing) that is most affected by the limited development time, so it's not exactly the fault of the writers, but it's still the weakest part of the game.

 

 

Oh yah, I wholeheartedly agree.  In fact, in my first play through of DA2, I quit after defeating the Arishok. because I thought I was done.   Then I saw some youtube footage about 6 months later, and went back and replayed it.

[The Elder King]

Much like how people value Inquisition More or less based on said opinions.

 

You are right, the 3rd Act is the weakest act in the end, but it is certainly not unsalvageable either. Considering the high tension of that point, the biggest problem was not letting it simmer a bit longer, maybe even a longer questline with Anders. 

 

I still maintain that if a 18 month development time only yields us a mediocre game that is, for all intents and purposes, still better than some AAA titles with 2-3 years of dev time, is higher praise for BioWare's ability as developers in the end. I agree it's not the best looking or best paced game, but it is still among the best story-driven, personal RPG's on the market.

 

I can only hope that we see something like that with Andromeda. I doubt that is the case. 

Indeed. People's values affect how they perceive the flaws and good points, or even which parts are flaws or good points, in a game.

Yeah, it was too..rushed. Everything happened so fast. Again, I do understand why it was made that way, since they had no time, probably. Who know, maybe with enough time we'd even got a third route where we'd try to stop the fight between mages and templars without siding.

 

Considering the little we know about the plot, as well as the possible focus on the exploration part, I'm not sure you'll get what you want. 

[AlanC9]

I hear Laura Bailey's voice everywhere. 
 
Should probably get that seen too...

I'm pretty sure I've never heard her voice. Good or bad thing?

[Cyonan]

I'm pretty sure I've never heard her voice. Good or bad thing?

 

You probably have, since she did voice work for a few minor characters in Mass Effect =P

 

As well as Serena in the Dawnguard DLC for Skyrim if you've played that.

[goishen]

I'm pretty sure I've never heard her voice. Good or bad thing?

 

 

Played anything in the past two years?   Then I can guarantee you've heard her voice.  Tales From The Borderlands, WoW, SR franchise, etc etc   Also in a ton of anime.  

 

 

EDIT :   https://en.wikipedia...ice_actress)   Shwa-BAM       *drops mic*

[BSpud]

Also Bianca and Dagna (DAI).

[AlanC9]

Played anything in the past two years? Then I can guarantee you've heard her voice. Tales From The Borderlands, WoW, SR franchise, etc etc Also in a ton of anime.


EDIT : https://en.wikipedia...ice_actress) Shwa-BAM *drops mic*

Oriana Lawson and the DAI characters are literally the only ones of her voices I've heard. (FO:NV is on my list, but I haven't finished Alpha Protocol yet.)

Although I may have been in the room when Naruto or some such was on.

[LinksOcarina]

Indeed. People's values affect how they perceive the flaws and good points, or even which parts are flaws or good points, in a game.

Yeah, it was too..rushed. Everything happened so fast. Again, I do understand why it was made that way, since they had no time, probably. Who know, maybe with enough time we'd even got a third route where we'd try to stop the fight between mages and templars without siding.

 

Considering the little we know about the plot, as well as the possible focus on the exploration part, I'm not sure you'll get what you want. 

 

I'm fine with that. I liked Inquisition as well, although it was mostly finding joy in the story and characters again.

 

In the end I am more of a story guy at heart, even though I have all of this knowledge and know-how about how mechanics work. 

[The Elder King]

I'm fine with that. I liked Inquisition as well, although it was mostly finding joy in the story and characters again.

 

In the end I am more of a story guy at heart, even though I have all of this knowledge and know-how about how mechanics work. 

i understand, and I sort of have the same point of view. I am howewer interested (though concerned) about the return of exploration in ME, and seeing how they might've improved from their last open world (DAI).

[Laughing_Man]

1) I agree on that. But with the one year of dev time I think we should've expected that this could've happened. Not that it justifies Bioware or EA in this regards (I recall the latter kind of prompt them to release DA2 early after DAO's success), but I think lowering the expectations would've been best. Same goes for bug and glitches, though to be fair from that point it seems Bioware increased the number of unresolves glitches and bugs in their games, regardless of the development time. The should definitely step up in this, but sadly it seems the norm in this years to release games with tons of bugs/glitchs and fix then with a lot of patches.

 

2)I don't think it's necessarily nostalgia. People values different situations differently. The pros of DA2 might outweight for some people the cons of DA2, so they have a better opinion of it. Same goes for the opposite. Plus, there are several features that some people might consider cons and others might consider as pros.

The nonsense of the double fight made me laugh hard when I saw it the first time. It's a bit worse in the templar one since you have already technically 'won', while in the mage route Orsino goes crazy in the middle of it.

 

1. Do you know why the norm is bad unpolished video games? Because for some reason people seem to think that they are acceptable, and even defend those games, or claim that they are "not that bad".

 

2. As for Orsino, I could have been more accepting towards this fight if he did that at the beginning of the fight. He literally waits until all the Templars are dead to do it. He is not checking if the others have already arrived, he's not looking for escape, he's not trying to earn time for at least some of his charges to escape.

 

He waits until Hawke kills all the Templars to transform. (the connection between him and the cereal killer seems contrived and rather out of character too, more to give an excuse to the Templar narrative than anything, ditto for Meredith becoming "mind controlled", the standard Bioware "it's not *really* their fault" excuse)

[Addictress]

It's not unpolished. Except for the re-used environments, I never had major bugs or glitches with DA2. Not only that, the combat was like... the most fun, challenging combat in the series, bar none.

 

The city's art style was badass. Stone, metal, sharp edges, austerity. Just my type.

[The Elder King]

1. Do you know why the "norm" is bad unpolished video games? Because for some reason people seem to think that they are acceptable, and even defend them, or claim that they are "not that bad".

 

2. As for Orsino, I could have been more accepting towards this fight if he did that at the beginning of the fight. He literally waits until all the Templars are dead to do it. He is not checking if the others have already arrived, he's not looking for escape, he's not trying to earn time for at least some of his charges to escape.

 

He waits until Hawke kills all the Templars to transform. (the connection between him and the cereal killer seems contrived and rather out of character too more to excuse the Templar narrative than anything, ditto for Meredith becoming "mind controlled", the standard Bioware "it's not *really* their fault" excuse)

1) To be clear, I'm not saying it's normal or good. I'll always point as a negative that the game in unpolished. And i do think Bioware has to step up in this. It is true that a lot of people seem to accept unpolished games.

2)I didn't mean Orsino's reason was good, regardless of the fact that he goes crazy on the death of his friends. It was a  plot device to make you fight both characters, kiil them both, and don't differentiate much the endings. I jsut mean the templar's make less sense, in having Meredith, your former ally (and possibly not only in the last choice) as an enemy.

[The Elder King]

It's not unpolished. Except for the re-used environments, I never had major bugs or glitches with DA2. Not only that, the combat was like... the most fun, challenging combat in the series, bar none.

 

The city's art style was badass. Stone, metal, sharp edges, austerity. Just my type.

Re-used environments aren't really bug or glitches anyway. There were stil la lot of them at release. Including a possible gamebreaking bug with Isabela's and Sebastians' friendship buff.

Combat is a matter of preference. I like the city's artstyle, though Kirkwall has the problem of being really underpopulated.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The ideas behind DA2 were nice. A more personal, smaller scale story, a more relatable protagonist, staying in the same city for years and seeing it change over time, have the Mage vs Templar conflict go full steam ahead.

 

The execution was decidedly less nice. It was clearly rushed, re-used assets like it was a freaking Unity Engine indie game, had several plot holes and events that made little sense, didn't actually change that much in-between timeskips, had abysmal encounter design, and worst of all negated the player's choices several times.

 

In an RPG.

 

I'm sorry, you can't do that. If you want to be like Spec Ops: The Line and make a linear story that berates the player for playing a linear story, fine. But player choice in an RPG is paramount. It's what holds the entire thing together. Having a moral to the tune of "well, you actually didn't change anything. Sorries!" is a terrible way to design an RPG. You can make those choices backfire, certainly. That's very cool. Or have there be no clearly better choice, yay. But make them not matter, and almost seem to even rub it in the player's face? Nope. You lost me, game. I'm not interested anymore.

 

I actually thought other parts of DA2 were good; the visual design was (overall, sans the freaky elves) a step up from Origins's brown blandness, the characters were fun, and I actually liked the combat system a lot in the end, even if it was hamstrung by the encounter design and console-centric controls. But that bit of writing still annoys me. 

[AlanC9]

But player choice in an RPG is paramount. It's what holds the entire thing together. Having a moral to the tune of "well, you actually didn't change anything. Sorries!" is a terrible way to design an RPG. You can make those choices backfire, certainly. That's very cool. Or have there be no clearly better choice, yay. But make them not matter, and almost seem to even rub it in the player's face? Nope. You lost me, game. I'm not interested anymore.

So RPGs have to be power fantasies? The PC must be able to shape the world?

[Giantdeathrobot]

So RPGs have to be power fantasies? The PC must be able to shape the world?

 

Err, I clearly said you can have choices backfire (like Iron Bull in Trespasser, that's great) or be ambiguous enough as to how good or bad they are to be open to interpretation (like Bhelen vs Harrowmount in DA:O).

 

Giving the player a choice, and then not following up on the consequences of that choice (good AND bad) sucks, however. DA2 did a lot of that.

 

RPGs don't have to be power fantasies; you don't always need to be the Inquisitior who saves the world, the Geralt who decides who rules all the continent, or the Bhaalspawn who can become a god. But if you give the player choices, then by jove follow up on them. How lame would it be if I killed Branka and chose Bhelen as king, only for the game's epilogue to go "Well sorry, Branka's actually alive and killed Bhelen so she's queen now, teehee. And that will happen regardless of your choices, too!". Similarily, regardless of your choices in DA2, all hell break loose, your mom dies, both Meredith and Orsino go cray-cray and get killed, your companions scatter, and Hawke is a wanted fugitive. I'm fine with some dramatic stuff happening to the PC no matter what, but that much is just gross overkill for drama's sake.

 

So yes, the player needs power to influence the narrative, in a variety of ways. Else you're just playing a story on rails, which is fine, but not really fitting for an RPG if you ask me.

[Malanek]

So RPGs have to be power fantasies? The PC must be able to shape the world?

I can see what he is getting at here though. I don't expect to change the world but you should be able to accomplish something. Pretty much everything you achieved throughout the game was ruined in the end, it was more bitter than sweet.

 

However overall I liked the game. It was clearly rushed but I enjoyed it. The story in the first two chapters, and even bits and pieces from the third, was my favourite from the series. I thought it was the best cast of characters and It also had by far the best DA DLC. I enjoyed it more than DAI even though that game spent about 4 times as long in development.

[Hazegurl]

I still don't know who Shinobi is, so I basically don't hold his opinion in any level of regard.

 

but it's still the only minuscule amount of information that we've gotten out of the mass silence from BioWare, even if half of it was just a repeat of BioWare's own "Man this game is amazing. You guys are gonna love it!". This thread just serves to show how desperate we are for any and all information about the game.

 

Also, Thessia fell because the Asari were too stupid to share their Prothean beacon and Kai Leng can only ever get a victory via cutscene because he's too incompetent to win on his own merits.

I agree about this Shinobi guy.  Sounds to me like his job is to subtly begin the hype train.  Especially by making it seem like Naughty Dog was somehow involved when it was just one guy who quit the company to work for EA. I'm sure his info is correct so it is some sort of news.  But I'll take the hype sentences such as "Spiritual successor to ME1" with a grain of salt.

 

As for Liara. I never said she is the reason Thessia fell.  They were never there to save that planet.  I said she cracked during the mission causing Leng to gain the advantage.  But I agree that the Asari are to blame for their planet falling.

 

 

Note: Yeah it's a cutscene victory like most of Leng's victories.  But that doesn't negate what happened in the story.  We spent 90% of the mission listening to her whine about Thessia with both Shepard and the extra  Squadmate trying to keep her focused, then she's shown derping out while Leng knock her into the squadmate. Blaming the crappy cut scene alone is just metagaming. I also hate that Shepard derped out during the Thane fight.  Yes, the cut scene sucked and was stupid. It still doesn't change the fact that Shepard just stood there watching Thane fight and die.

 

Note #2( to those saying I hate Asari): I don't hate the Asari.  And Liara has grown on me over the years. I don't get why liking a character/species means they should be immune to criticism. But I'll stop talking about everybody's waifu.

[Hazegurl]

I can see what he is getting at here though. I don't expect to change the world but you should be able to accomplish something. Pretty much everything you achieved throughout the game was ruined in the end, it was more bitter than sweet.

 

However overall I liked the game. It was clearly rushed but I enjoyed it. The story in the first two chapters, and even bits and pieces from the third, was my favourite from the series. I thought it was the best cast of characters and It also had by far the best DA DLC. I enjoyed it more than DAI even though that game spent about 4 times as long in development.

I agree completely. There needs to be some sort of balance.  Having choices blow up in my face is cool, but when it happens all the time then making a choice becomes pointless. DA2 was a fun game, but I didn't care for most of the choices because I knew they weren't gonna go anywhere. A little bit of power fantasy doesn't hurt just don't go overboard with it.

[Andrew Lucas]

@ Anderw Lucas: Then why not just DD the game?

What does that mean?