716 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

To be honest this is a risk we all take in any form of entertainment media. I love Peter Jackson's Fellowship of the ring until the end where he does an about face with the source material and has Frodo and Strider say good-bye. Then for me the series goes down hill but it isn't ruined for me until the Green swirly thing of death and Aragorn MURDERING the mouth of Sauron during PARLEY! Even the dark Lord himself never violated parley but the King of the free people's does!?!

I had completely blotted this out of my memory.

[Iakus]

I had completely blotted this out of my memory.

To be fair, though, the Mouth of Sauron is only in the extended version.

[Iakus]

Shinobi talks a bit about Andromeda feeling like a true follow-up to ME1. Obviously, that could just be a tone thing, but I wonder if there's a hint there about when the trip across space actually happens. As in, maybe they embark before the events of both ME2 and ME3.

Hey, if that means ME2 and ME3 are non canon, I'm willing to look into this.

[Killroy]

Isn't this the part where you prove that it is debatable by debating it?

You're saying there was a thematic change, right? So, what was it?

You did say that Adam and Eve symbolism can't work without a galactic dark age, but that was nonsense if meant literally.

 

There is no Adam & Eve imagery/allegory without the galactic dark age since it's otherwise just a gimp walking into the sunset with his sexbot. And the Adam & Eve allegory isn't debatable since even the game's files make it clear that that's what was happening. The whole point of Adam & Eve was that they were starting humanity. This ain't rocket surgery. You don't even need to connect any dots. It just is. 

 

And the thematic change is clear once you stop being pointlessly disingenuous about the whole thing. It was a galactic dark age in every scenario because they were hellbent on making the Adam & Eve/Synthesis ending the "correct" ending. Then the Extended Cut came along and completely changed that, invalidating that entire theme/allegory. As soon as the Normandy takes off again(why did it even crash in the first place if it wasn't meant to show that the galaxy was in a dark age?) the entire ending is changed. Then the slideshow starts and everything's coming up Milhouse, which is clearly not something that the original ending even slightly hinted at, so the "additional clarity" is, in fact, a rewrite. Oh, and the addition of the Refuse scenario makes the "Nothing changed" argument a complete fabrication. 

[Killroy]

Hey, if that means ME2 and ME3 are non canon, I'm willing to look into this.

 

They wouldn't make ME2 and 3 non-canon, but there was a 2-year gap between ME1 and 2. 

[AlanC9]

To be fair, though, the Mouth of Sauron is only in the extended version.

Ah. Thanks.

Someone ought to do a "Phantom Edit" version of the trilogy and cut out the stuff Jackson made up.

[AlanC9]

There is no Adam & Eve imagery/allegory without the galactic dark age since it's otherwise just a gimp walking into the sunset with his sexbot. And the Adam & Eve allegory isn't debatable since even the game's files make it clear that that's what was happening. The whole point of Adam & Eve was that they were starting humanity. This ain't rocket surgery. You don't even need to connect any dots. It just is.

Well, that's better, anyway.

Without the galactic dark age, we still have the organics entering into a new world, since the fundamental fact that has structured the galaxy for all of history has been either erased or transformed. That's what was symbolized. Remember, Genesis isn't about how Adam and Eve stayed in the Garden; it's about how they left.

And the thematic change is clear once you stop being pointlessly disingenuous about the whole thing. It was a galactic dark age in every scenario because they were hellbent on making the Adam & Eve/Synthesis ending the "correct" ending.

I'm not certain what you mean by "correct" in this context. The best outcome?

[dreamgazer]

Hey, if that means ME2 and ME3 are non canon, I'm willing to look into this.

They'd be Shrodinger's canon, existing and not existing at the same time.

[Iakus]

They'd be Shrodinger's canon, existing and not existing at the same time.

WHich still means no return to the MW.

 

Ever  

[von uber]

Ah. Thanks.

Someone ought to do a "Phantom Edit" version of the trilogy and cut out the stuff Jackson made up.

It would be about 30 mins long then in that case.

[Sifr]

Ah. Thanks.

Someone ought to do a "Phantom Edit" version of the trilogy and cut out the stuff Jackson made up.

 

At least Jackson knew not to include Tom Bombadil, easily the most irritating and overpowered character in the entire series.

 

Trying to include that subplot in Fellowship would have completely destroyed the narrative tension that the Hobbits weren't safe until they arrived in Rivendell, raised questions like why can't the weird old guy who can handle the Ring take it instead, as well as forced us to have to endure painful scenes with that character.

[Iakus]

At least Jackson knew not to include Tom Bombadil, easily the most irritating and overpowered character in the entire series.

 

Trying to include that subplot in Fellowship would have completely destroyed the narrative tension that the Hobbits weren't safe until they arrived in Rivendell, raised questions like why can't the weird old guy who can handle the Ring take it instead, as well as forced us to have to endure painful scenes with that character.

The book actually accounted for Bombadil.  The Council of Elrond did consider sending the One Ring to him for safekeeping.  But it was rejected because he wouldn't be a very good guardian.  Because the Ring had no power over him and his rather simplistic "live and let live" attitude, he simply wouldn't comprehend how dangerous the One Ring is and would more than likely just forget about it.  And that's assuming he'd agree to such a guardianship to begin with.

 

Plus it such a plan would really be no more than punting:

 

"But in any case," said Glorfindel, "to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.

[Sifr]

Yeah, but while the book addressed this, it doesn't really fit well within the movie universe, because the question would be in the back of audience's minds until they got to Rivendell and the answer itself might not hold up. Why is sending it to an insanely powerful being any worse of an option than sending a hobbit on a suicide mission to the enemy's front door?

 

Also because as an entity that many fans theorise might be Eru himself in disguise, Tom being overpowered and his childish nature doesn't really fit the tone of the rest of the movie. The Lord of the Rings is more adult-themed, while Tom is a holdover character from Tolkien's other fiction that was aimed more for children.

 

His lack of being influenced by the Ring also didn't thematically fit, since the film established that (almost) everyone who came in contact with the Ring was tempted by it at some point, culminating in Boromir eventually dying after he let the temptation to use it get the better of him.

 

Plus, ya know... Tom Bombadil is an extremely grating character for many people.

[Iakus]

 

Plus, ya know... Tom Bombadil is an extremely grating character for many people.

Well, that's true. 

 

Still I would not have minded a variation of the adventure in the Barrow-Downs.  Rather than Aragorn just happening to have four Numenorean blades on him 

[Hammerstorm]

Plus, ya know... Tom Bombadil is an extremely grating character for many people.

 

Why does people not like him?   I thought he was an interesting character.

[Killroy]

Well, that's better, anyway.

Without the galactic dark age, we still have the organics entering into a new world, since the fundamental fact that has structured the galaxy for all of history has been either erased or transformed. That's what was symbolized. Remember, Genesis isn't about how Adam and Eve stayed in the Garden; it's about how they left.

They left the Garden of Eden and started humanity. If the ending was always supposed to be what the EC made it(and every one of us was just too stupid to see it) then there would be no need for the Adam & Eve allegory, the Normandy crashing, or the Stargazer scene. Literally everything points to a dark age.
Arguing that it wasn't supposed to be a galactic dark age is objectively stupid. 
 

I'm not certain what you mean by "correct" in this context. The best outcome?

The endings were all built around the framework of the Adam & Eve allegory. The Catalyst tells you that Synthesis is the only way and you're supposed to believe him. The Synthesis trigger is in the center and you have to branch way away from it to choose the other two.

[Xen]

Why does people not like him?   I thought he was an interesting character.

......

 

I mean......I guess I liked him in those Battle for Middle Earth RTS games? Dropping him right into the middle of the orc base and watching him run around slaughtering and razing everything to the ground, all the while happily singing and dancing was at least amusing.

 

When I reread Fellowship, though, I literally skipped most of the Barrow Downs section.

[Andrew Lucas]

Since this thread may very well be locked anyways, I'm going put this in just before the jump, that I'd love to see Courtnee Draper do more voice work in video games! She was incredible. And unlike some other voice actors, doesn't have an IMDB page the length of the Great Wall of China.

Yes! *highfives*.

She's such a great VA :3

[Il Divo]

......

 

I mean......I guess I liked him in those Battle for Middle Earth RTS games? Dropping him right into the middle of the orc base and watching him run around slaughtering and razing everything to the ground, all the while happily singing and dancing was at least amusing.

 

When I reread Fellowship, though, I literally skipped most of the Barrow Downs section.

 

Those games were so much fun back in the day. 

[dreamgazer]

That may be reading into it a bit too much, although I have a feeling we will find out in about a month anyway.

 

Sir, of course it's reading into it a bit too much. 

[AlanC9]

They left the Garden of Eden and started humanity. If the ending was always supposed to be what the EC made it(and every one of us was just too stupid to see it) then there would be no need for the Adam & Eve allegory, the Normandy crashing, or the Stargazer scene. Literally everything points to a dark age.
Arguing that it wasn't supposed to be a galactic dark age is objectively stupid. 

Every one of us? My impression was that hysteria over the dark age was confined to a vocal minority. I suppose we can pull up the old threads to check.

Before we continue, we should probably be clearer about what we mean by a "dark age." Without the relays trade would be strangled for..... well, we don't know how long. We don't have a time-scale for the relays being repaired either pre- or post-EC. Could be centuries either way; nobody we see getting home in the EC slides has less than centuries left to live, which is long enough to get back even if the relays were never repaired. Some colonies, particularly the human ones, don't seem likely to have enough population to maintain their technology in this situation -- without economies of scale there are too many pieces you need to keep making -- and would likely revert to much lower technological levels; 19th century, maybe? (FWIW, I was in favor of a sequel where the relays had never been repaired, and large areas of the MW had reverted to barbarism.)

[AlanC9]

Yeah, but while the book addressed this, it doesn't really fit well within the movie universe, because the question would be in the back of audience's minds until they got to Rivendell and the answer itself might not hold up. Why is sending it to an insanely powerful being any worse of an option than sending a hobbit on a suicide mission to the enemy's front door?

Well, I thought the book answer was pretty good. Sauron's going to win without the Ring, so keeping the Ring from him doesn't solve anything.
 
But, yeah, I don't think the film would have worked better with him in it.

[Killroy]

Every one of us? My impression was that hysteria over the dark age was confined to a vocal minority. I suppose we can pull up the old threads to check.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying everyone assumed and was angry that there was a galactic dark age. I'm saying no one did or could have gleaned from the pre-EC ending what the ending was "supposed" to be, as delivered in the EC. I'm calling BioWare liars. The EC is not what the ending was intended to be. It was changed in response to the complaints, clearly. It wasn't an issue of clarity or too much room for speculation, it was an issue of quality.
 

Before we continue, we should probably be clearer about what we mean by a "dark age." Without the relays trade would be strangled for..... well, we don't know how long. We don't have a time-scale for the relays being repaired either pre- or post-EC. Could be centuries either way; nobody we see getting home in the EC slides has less than centuries left to live, which is long enough to get back even if the relays were never repaired. Some colonies, particularly the human ones, don't seem likely to have enough population to maintain their technology in this situation -- without economies of scale there are too many pieces you need to keep making -- and would likely revert to much lower technological levels; 19th century, maybe? (FWIW, I was in favor of a sequel where the relays had never been repaired, and large areas of the MW had reverted to barbarism.)

From a purely logical, lore-based position there is no way they could have gotten the relays functioning again in any sort of timely manner. All of the advanced technology was based on Reaper tech, which is no longer active or usable, so how do relay repairs even begin? If you ignore the fact that the actual logistics/engineering of the relays is still largely unknown at that point you're still left with non-functioning ships, non-functioning equipment, and a crippled galaxy that was already on it's last leg. If the relays were so easy to figure out then the Council and Cerberus would have been making their own relays already. 

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Didn't the Stargazer scene say they didn't have space travel? "We'll get to space some day".

 

It's pretty clear they intended some sort of dark age, and they backed down on that in the EC.

 

They likely didn't think too much about it either, because they backed down on destroying the relays in the EC too. I guess they forgot about Arrival.

[Malanek]

Didn't the Stargazer scene say they didn't have space travel? "We'll get to space some day".

 

It's pretty clear they intended some sort of dark age, and they backed down on that in the EC.

 

They likely didn't think too much about it either, because they backed down on destroying the relays in the EC too. I guess they forgot about Arrival.

No. The kid said, 'When can "I" go to the stars?' And Buzz said, 'One day my sweet.'

 

This does not imply there is a galactic dark age, but rather the kid is deemed too young to go into space. Since you get the scene in synthesis and control it is almost certain that that was not what the writer intended.