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[Undead Han]

Apparently LOTR is just Viking Mythology with tea and bits of English.

In fact apparently Viking Mythology is Roman Mythology which is Greek Mythology, which is probably like late Egyptian and Sumerian Mythology or something.

History is weird.

History is often weird but Norse mythology had its roots in ancient Germanic myths, not Roman myths, which also did not evolve out of Sumerian or Egyptian myths.

Norse and Roman mythology share common roots perhaps in evolving out of some lost prehistoric Indo-European tribal religion, but the original Indo-European nomads predate both Rome and the Norse by thousands of years. That's a long time for many distinct and different religious traditions to evolve out of that original root. It's sort of like how Christianity and Islam both sprouted from Judaism, except with even more time and geographical separation for differences to have emerged.

[Legenlorn]

Soo... How did we get to mythology from Shinobis tweets?

[Addictress]

And that's how we get space elves

[Undead Han]

Soo... How did we get to mythology from Shinobis tweets?

Boredom, a cold, and a lack of anything interesting on TV.

[Zazzerka]

Soo... How did we get to mythology from Shinobis tweets?

 

Both are equally dubious, so it makes sense.

[Seraphim24]

History is often weird but Norse mythology had its roots in ancient Germanic myths, not Roman myths, which also did not evolve out of Sumerian or Egyptian myths.

Norse and Roman mythology share common roots perhaps in evolving out of some lost prehistoric Indo-European tribal religion, but the original Indo-European nomads predate both Rome and the Norse by thousands of years. That's a long time for many distinct and different religious traditions to evolve out of that original root. It's sort of like how Christianity and Islam both sprouted from Judaism, except with even more time and geographical separation for differences to have emerged.

 

Well it sounds like you made my point, provided some lost prehistoric Indo-European tribal religion was filtered into Sumerian or Egyptian.

 

The flood story and the Ark, Adam and Eve, lots of similar things were definitely in Sumerian is my understanding for ex... plus Christianity depending on how they view the trinity and other things some people view as a form of polytheism... at least, that's all what I've read.

 

I guess I'm just saying LOTR was a movie is why it shows up in everything, there's nothing really special about the characterization or Bilbo or this person or that person it's all just re-hash.

 

Like I don't think a lot people understand if you read the Edda the names of Dwarves and stuff and people are like "Gandalf" "Gimli" Middle-Earth/Midgard  it's not simply the inspired by huge amounts of central character's names and stuff are like 100% identical.

 

Anyway whatever makes ME unique is not that it descends from re-treading ye olde Shire.....

[Steelcan]

 

Like I don't think a lot people understand if you read the Edda the names of Dwarves and stuff and people are like "Gandalf" "Gimli" Middle-Earth/Midgard  it's not simply the inspired by huge amounts of central character's names and stuff are like 100% identical.

pfft casual Tolkien fan alert.  those names like "Gandalf" and "Gimli" are technically translated by Tolkien from their original names to make them more understandable to an English reading audience.  Names from Dale and Erebor got Norsified, those from Rohan were made into Old English, and some other ones were made Gothic.

 

For example Gandalf's real name is Olorin.

[themikefest]

Boredom, a cold, and a lack of anything interesting on TV.

play ME

[AlanC9]

Well it sounds like you made my point, provided some lost prehistoric Indo-European tribal religion was filtered into Sumerian or Egyptian.

We could also just make a structuralist play there-- these religions are the same because they serve the same social function, not because there was any real common descent. This would work for your general point, if you don't mind getting into Campbell territory.

[Commander Rpg]

Like a swarm of locusts...

More like rats abandoning a sinking ship.

[AlanC9]

pfft casual Tolkien fan alert.  those names like "Gandalf" and "Gimli" are technically translated by Tolkien from their original names to make them more understandable to an English reading audience.  Names from Dale and Erebor got Norsified, those from Rohan were made into Old English, and some other ones were made Gothic.
 
For example Gandalf's real name is Olorin.

Your general point is sound, but I don't think Olorin is an example. "Gandalf" is a Westron-to-Norse translation, but it's not a translation of "Olorin," which was a separate Quenya name.

[Steelcan]

Your general point is sound, but I don't think Olorin is an example. "Gandalf" is a Westron-to-Norse translation, but it's not a translation of "Olorin," which was a separate Quenya name.

His name in Westron wasn't Gandalf though, and since I don't know it off the top of my head I just used his "true" name

[AlanC9]

Gotcha. I'm not sure Tolkien ever gave Gandalf's Westron original -- unlike, say, Samwise's, which shows up in the appendix.

The little I know of actual Westron makes it sound really alien.

[Iakus]

Your general point is sound, but I don't think Olorin is an example. "Gandalf" is a Westron-to-Norse translation, but it's not a translation of "Olorin," which was a separate Quenya name.

"Gandalf" was I believe the Westron term for "Grey Wand"  As Mithrandir was Sindarin for "Grey Pilgrim"

[CronoDragoon]

Just had a creepy thought... if this game is supposed be like what ME1 was intended, the does that mean we'll be getting those long elevator rides back again?  

 

If by elevator rides you mean the descent onto the planet then yes. Considering everything's going to be seamless now I anticipate a lot of banter being spent on travel periods.

[Seraphim24]

pfft casual Tolkien fan alert.  those names like "Gandalf" and "Gimli" are technically translated by Tolkien from their original names to make them more understandable to an English reading audience.  Names from Dale and Erebor got Norsified, those from Rohan were made into Old English, and some other ones were made Gothic.

 

For example Gandalf's real name is Olorin.

 

Sounds like a hokey poke dance to me.

 

Oh I just happened to translate them into a name that is identical to the one from the book that shares the same themes as my book, but really my name wasn't the identical name from that book that happened to describe a Wizard, it was actually something else.

 

Besides, "English reading audience," you mean like his audience? Because I mean Tolkien was English he wasn't writing in Egyptian... unless you mean to suggest my translation of the Edda was done by Tolkien secretly which it wasn't it's Faulkes or something unelss you mean to suggest he translated some Norse version of the Edda into Gandalf and that was appropriated by everyone else in which case, but then then he was still copying the original name or at least the English version of the original name.

 

I mean Quenya is just Tolkien's made up language it's like saying my imaginary friend's true name is Freskalmellina but I translated it into "Barack Obama" because that would make it more understandable to people, but Barack Obama was just a name I also made up just now.

 

The only way what you say makes sense is if Tolkien did the original translation and everyone else was just borrowing from him but I don't see anything that stated he himself did the original translation or any translation that you buy at any rate, and even if he did, well that just makes the point even more clear, he was pretty much just summarizing Norse mythology.

 

Whatever.

 

 

We could also just make a structuralist play there-- these religions are the same because they serve the same social function, not because there was any real common descent. This would work for your general point, if you don't mind getting into Campbell territory.

 

What social function is there in telling a story about a big flood that killed a bunch of people anyway? And that killed pretty much entirely at random? (Apparently)

[AlanC9]

Sounds like a hokey poke dance to me.

Oh I just happened to translate them into a name that is identical to the one from the book that shares the same themes as my book, but really my name wasn't the identical name from that book that happened to describe a Wizard, it was actually something else.

Besides, "English reading audience," you mean like his audience? Because I mean Tolkien was English he wasn't writing in Egyptian... unless you mean to suggest my translation of the Edda was done by Tolkien secretly which it wasn't it's Faulkes or something unelss you mean to suggest he translated some norse version of the Edda into Gandalf and that was appropriated by everyone else in which case, but then then he was still copying the original name or at least the English version of the original name.

Whatever.

Umm... if you're trying to prove that you really don't know what you're talking about, this is the way. Tolkien explains exactly what he was doing in the appendices.

Edit: it's totally OK not to have read those. But then you shouldn't put up a fuss when someone tells you what was in them.

Edit 2: I don't think I've ever seen that "hokey poke dance" metaphor before. What's it mean?

[Seraphim24]

Umm... if you're trying to prove that you really don't know what you're talking about, this is the way. Tolkien explains exactly what he was doing in the appendices.

Edit: it's totally OK not to have read those. But then you shouldn't put up a fuss when someone tells you what was in them.

 

But I'm telling you what's in the Edda here I'm not the only one, "Gandalf" "Oin" "Gloin" of course Gandalf is a Dwarf but you know page 20 or something. That's in Faulke's translation of the Edda, so he was either A) Taking a translation from Tolkien earlier or B ) Translating in the exact same way from the exact point an original name (possibly like others before him) which was then taken by Tolkien.

 

Asinyur/Asgard, Middle Earth/Midgard, there's more than just a few things...

 

I can't remember... oh yeah! Yeah I mean I knew vaguely "Norse mythology" was an inspiration I just never expected to find the exact same names is all. Even a Gandalfr would of sufficed or something. 

 

There's also Alfheim and Light Elves, etc. Elves have been around a kind of super long time though apparently. 

[AlanC9]

Well, of course Tolkien was taking the names from historical materials. Since names of Westron origin were to be used in an English work, they needed to be taken from an ancestor of English. This only applies to Westron names; Quenya or Sindarin names are derived from those languages, and shouldn't be related to English.

Just making names up would have been contrary to his entire project; his concept of languages was that languages can't be properly understood and used unless you know, really know, the culture those languages came from. Put another way, LoTR, the Silmarillion, and so forth are a way to understand Elvish, rather than Elvish being implemented to adorn those stories. (Very few readers appreciate the total craziness of the project.)

One of the interesting problems Tolkien saddled himself with is that, while he's writing the book as if Westron is English because Westron is the common tongue for the people in the books and English is the reader's language, Westron itself isn't much like English. Westron derives from Adunaic, which IIRC is supposed to be Semitic. This is why Numenorean names sound odd to us; the actual Westron names do too, though they only appear untranslated in the ancillary materials.

[Seraphim24]

Well, of course Tolkien was taking the names from historical materials. Since those names need to be used in an English work, they needed to be taken from an ancestor of English.

Just making them up would have been contrary to his entire project; his concept of languages was that languages can't be properly understood and used unless you know, really know, the culture those languages came from. Put another way, LoTR, the Silmarillion, and so forth are a way to understand Elvish, rather than Elvish being implemented to adorn those stories. (Very few readers appreciate the total craziness of the project.)

 

What?! Ancestor of English... Ok so first of all modern day "England" pretty much all "Germans" if I'm not mistaken... due to repeated Viking and Saxon invasions over the course of like 1000 years until like all the "Bretons/Dunmonii" whatever were dead. 

 

Plus Elvish isn't a real language, that's like saying well you need to have this translated name to understand my imaginary name again. Well, we don't really need your imaginary world though, I mean,  hopefully it is interesting, but this is a case of historical materials being essentially the same as the "imaginary" ones.

 

Well unless you value Quenya  merely for the fact that it's an invented language but I don't really care for that aspect. 

 

I think actually my point is that LOTR is like a more extreme Viking version of traditional norse mythology, just like GoT is a hyper-extremist fringe version in many ways to the point of disintegrating into nihilism to be honest... 

[Seraphim24]

Anyway, I just think when it's all said and done Bioware came up with a much more interesting basis for something fun than Tolkien.

 

[AlanC9]

What?! Ancestor of English... Ok so first of all modern day "England" pretty much all "Germans" if I'm not mistaken... due to repeated Viking and Saxon invasions over the course of like 1000 years until like all the "Bretons/Dunmonii" whatever were dead.

Or exiled to Wales and Brittany, yep, although IIRC the genetics data says that they were culturally absorbed rather than outright exterminated. However, the Vikings brought plenty of language elements over, and then the Normans brought French. The fundamental structure of English is a debased version of German, but the vocabulary's a mutt.
 

Plus Elvish isn't a real language, that's like saying well you need to have this translated name to understand my imaginary name again. Well, we don't really need your imaginary world though, I mean,  hopefully it is interesting, but this is a case of historical materials being essentially the same as the "imaginary" ones.

Well unless you value Quenya  merely for the fact that it's an invented language but I don't really care for that aspect.

Yep, he made up Elvish. And yeah, we don't need either. But his concept was that you couldn't have the language without the history and mythology, so making up the language required him to make up the rest too.

As for whether you or I or anyone else cares about that, well, he did not do this for our approval.


Here's an interesting document. Note that Tolkien was being easy on the translators here WRT the word "hobbit;" technically a translator could have been expected to have to make up a new word the way Tolkien himself made up hobbit from Old English elements.
 

I think actually my point is that LOTR is like a more extreme Viking version of traditional norse mythology,

This doesn't strike me as being a particularly useful way to think about the work. At the level of generality we'd need to use to make that stick, I could map it onto just about any religious tradition.

[Seraphim24]

Or exiled to Wales and Brittany, yep, although IIRC the genetics data says that they were culturally absorbed rather than outright exterminated. However, the Vikings brought plenty of language elements over, and then the Normans brought French. The fundamental structure of English is a debased version of German, but the vocabulary's a mutt.
 

Yep, he made up Elvish. And yeah, we don't need either. But his concept was that you couldn't have the language without the history and mythology, so making up the language required him to make up the rest too.

As for whether you or I or anyone else cares about that, well, he did not do this for our approval.


Here's an interesting document. Note that Tolkien was being easy on the translators here WRT the word "hobbit;" technically a translator could have been expected to have to make up a new word the way Tolkien himself made up hobbit from Old English elements.
 

This doesn't strike me as being a particularly useful way to think about the work. At the level of generality we'd need to use to make that stick, I could map it onto just about any religious tradition.

 

Ok how about you just explain to me just why Tolkien is so different from the typical Norse rigamarole, because all I see is the exact same thing, more or less. 

 

Everything in the edda, all the versions of heroism, all powerful beings "divine" forces, it's all there, everything is exactly the same basically, in some instances, right down to the name used. 

 

Perhaps elsewhere so as not to get OT. 

 

I think the reason Norse mythology is so irritating is because all these "heroic" figures are oftentimes weaklings or delinquents and otherwise tedius anti-heroish people that build up cult of personalities and symbolism as well as make use of proxies to achieve their ends, kind of like why I'm here and not on the council of the one ring forums or whatever... 

 

Just like I see the exact same things in Roman stories, Greek stories, etc, although earlier versions of the Greek are sort of different. 

[Teabaggin Krogan]

Arwen looks like Luthian yes. But I think you forget that in the Silmarillian she also is pretty badass, she travels to Morgoth's lair and helps Beren steal a Silmarillian, faces down a werewolf with just herself and Beren's hound, it isn't like she is a wallflower. So Arwen's appearance in the movie is very analogous to Luthian.

 

Bilbo is done well? Really?  Bilbo finds the ring in the books fumbling in the dark before he even knows Gollum exists. In PJ's shitshow Bilbo STEALS the ring which is a complete contradiction of the source material AND it conflicts with Why Bilbo was able to give up the ring because he committed no evil in obtaining it so it was never able to fully take hold of him. And before people say he didn't steal it, I encourage them to watch that scene, again a friend showed it to me years ago just to watch me RAGE lol. Bilbo sees the ring fall out of Gollum's pocket and then takes the ring when he is alone. If I see someone drop their wallet and then wait for them to leave and take it, IT IS STEALING...

 

You're right, liking the films is rather subjective to your own interpretations and I wouldn't wanna drag this to off topic either. However I'll just clarify about Arwen since I feel rather strongly about it.

 

Luthin was a badass no doubt but as I remember it, it was a wholly different sort of badass to the one you tell. True she and Beren did go to Morgoth's layer to steal the silmarillion and it was Sauron himself who attacked beren as the werewolf but Sauron was only subdued by the hound Huan(I think) who was not even Beren's hound actually. After he was beat by Huan, Sauron fled leaving the fort to Luthian but Beren was already dead so Luthian died of sadness and went to the underworld where she sang to the lord there who was so pleased with her song that he allowed them both to live again on the condition that Luthian become mortal. 

 

This is very different to the movie rendition where they straight up made Arwen an elven scythe weilding ninja able to take on the nine herself! Luthian wasn't a ninja but was know for her beauty, her voice and her love for Beren which was mirrored by Arwen in the books.

 

Also I was talking about Bilbo in terms of acting which I feel he did a good job of. But I did forget or rather overlook the part where bilbo sees gollum lose the ring and nicks it. Good point, that is a big difference from the books and of significance later. Anyways I'll stop as well, to each what he finds best. 

 

OT, Shinobi can do all the shady marketing like his namesake suggests but I'll wait till I see more from EA play before I start fangirling. 

[Iakus]

You're right, liking the films is rather subjective to your own interpretations and I wouldn't wanna drag this to off topic either. However I'll just clarify about Arwen since I feel rather strongly about it.

 

Luthin was a badass no doubt but as I remember it, it was a wholly different sort of badass to the one you tell. True she and Beren did go to Morgoth's layer to steal the silmarillion and it was Sauron himself who attacked beren as the werewolf but Sauron was only subdued by the hound Huan(I think) who was not even Beren's hound actually. After he was beat by Huan, Sauron fled leaving the fort to Luthian but Beren was already dead so Luthian died of sadness and went to the underworld where she sang to the lord there who was so pleased with her song that he allowed them both to live again on the condition that Luthian become mortal. 

 

This is very different to the movie rendition where they straight up made Arwen an elven scythe weilding ninja able to take on the nine herself! Luthian wasn't a ninja but was know for her beauty, her voice and her love for Beren which was mirrored by Arwen in the books.

 

Fun fact:  JRR Tolkien and his wife Edith's shared gravestone has "Luthien" and "Beren" inscribed in it.