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[AlanC9]

This is very different to the movie rendition where they straight up made Arwen an elven scythe weilding ninja able to take on the nine herself! Luthian wasn't a ninja but was know for her beauty, her voice and her love for Beren which was mirrored by Arwen in the books.

Though "voice" there does include some outright magical abilities for Luthien. If Arwen had any, we don't see them.

[von uber]

Anyway, I just think when it's all said and done Bioware came up with a much more interesting basis for something fun than Tolkien.

Oh that made me laugh, thanks!

[Adragalus]

Oh, thank the skies. Shinobi is probably one of the most reputable sources out there, and his info has been pretty much spot on in the past.

 

I can rest with a bit of peace, I think. Now Bioware just needs to take the time to get it right and reclaim the series.

[AlanC9]

Ok how about you just explain to me just why Tolkien is so different from the typical Norse rigamarole, because all I see is the exact same thing, more or less.

You're the one seeing the similarity. Define "typical Norse rigmarole" in a way that, say, includes Tolkein but doesn't include the Iliad. Divine beings, heroism in various editions, heroes who are weaklings or delinquents.... It's all there.

You'll come up with some stuff, but it'll be minor tropes.

[Iakus]

You're the one seeing the similarity. Define "typical Norse rigmarole" in a way that, say, includes Tolkein but doesn't include the Iliad. Divine beings, heroism in various editions, heroes who are weaklings or delinquents.... It's all there.

You'll come up with some stuff, but it'll be minor tropes.

Also, Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and that influence can be felt throughout the trilogy and is very different from "Norse rigmarole"

[AlanC9]

Now that I think of it, I remember a spectacularly wrong-headed review of The Silmarillion when it first came out -- might have been in F&SF -- where the reviewer was disappointed in the book because it wasn't pagan enough.

[Seraphim24]

You're the one seeing the similarity. Define "typical Norse rigmarole" in a way that, say, includes Tolkein but doesn't include the Iliad. Divine beings, heroism in various editions, heroes who are weaklings or delinquents.... It's all there.

 

That's still my point it's like all the same stuff. 

 

As for Tolkien being catholic my understanding is Roman Catholicism is well, like the Roman version of Christianity, having adopted the Athenasian Creeds whole cloth and other modifications as well as the Trinity that weren't present in original Christianity, well I don't really want to get into a religious discussion though... 

 

And it is "Roman

catholicism" (or just catholicism) emanating as it does from the same placed birthed Roman mythology and here we are back in the cycle again... 

 

http://www.thescotts...nd-trinity.html

 

Anyway I just don't like characters that are whiners or losers, whatever, give me an actual hero and not a shadow of one.It doesn't matter about religion or other things, not saying inherently bad or something as that part can just be true regardless of whatever religion someone supposedly adheres to...

[von uber]

Tolkein was trying to write a English saga wasn't he?
Anyway the problem with LotR now is that it pretty much was the trope definer, and thus seems unoriginal today.
Although you'd be hard pushed to find something with such a detailed and consistent world.

[Iakus]

Tolkein was trying to write a English saga wasn't he?
Anyway the problem with LotR now is that it pretty much was the trope definer, and thus seems unoriginal today.
Although you'd be hard pushed to find something with such a detailed and consistent world.

He was trying to write myths and legends for the languages he was designing.  

 

And LoTR is pretty much the story that made fantasy acceptable to an adult audience as entertainment rather than as religious or political allegory.

[AlanC9]

That's still my point it's like all the same stuff. 

If you don't mean to say that something is like Norse sagas, specifically and repeatedly talking about how it is like Norse sagas isn't a very good way to get that point across.
 

Anyway I just don't like characters that are whiners or losers, whatever, give me an actual hero and not a shadow of one.It doesn't matter about religion or other things, not saying inherently bad or something as that part can just be true regardless of whatever religion someone supposedly adheres to...

What literature passes your exacting standards?

[von uber]

He was trying to write myths and legends for the languages he was designing.

And LoTR is pretty much the story that made fantasy acceptable to an adult audience as entertainment rather than as religious or political allegory.

I'm sure he was trying to create a missing mythic story for England, unless my memory is going.

And agreed, although I first read it at about age 8 which is far too many years ago.

[Seraphim24]

If you don't mean to say that something is like Norse sagas, specifically and repeatedly talking about how it is like Norse sagas isn't a very good way to get that point across.
 

What literature passes your exacting standards?

 

Well I've always preferred Arthurian fantasy to LOTR for starters, which my understanding is Tolkien himself sort of hated, but that's certainly not the only thing. I think the legend of Ys is pretty interesting too although gets really way too crazy. 

 

Even then you still have some twisted things like Mordred and it all goes to crap but it definitely goes in the direction I prefer... 

 

Anyway one of the reasons I gravitated towards Baldur's Gate was because it didn't feel like the same schtick, and now X numbers of years later it feels like what most people want so I'm just kinda meh is all. The fact that LOTR has similarities to so many other things is why I was probably never very into it.....

 

I mean I honestly liked the Hobbit better anyway... Bilbo > Frodo. 

 

Anyway that's cute you have stuff from FSF I'm guessing that was a magazine you subscribed to or something.. .

[Iakus]

I'm sure he was trying to create a missing mythic story for England, unless my memory is going.

And agreed, although I first read it at about age 8 which is far too many years ago.

Middle Earth was supposed to be something akin to a prehistoric Europe (Numenor was his own version of the fall of Atlantis)  Some unnamed time period before magic faded and the world became mundane.

[Arcian]

Peter Jackson murdered LotR. Literally took it out around the back and shanked it.

I don't know about the rest of the trilogy, but Tom Bombadil really deserved to get shanked.

[Seraphim24]

the world became mundane.

 

Yeah... the present 

[pdusen]

 
As for Tolkien being catholic my understanding is Roman Catholicism is well, like the Roman version of Christianity, having adopted the Athenasian Creeds whole cloth and other modifications as well as the Trinity that weren't present in original Christianity, well I don't really want to get into a religious discussion though... 
 
And it is "Roman
catholicism" (or just catholicism) emanating as it does from the same placed birthed Roman mythology and here we are back in the cycle again... 
 

Holy crap, you've said a lot of wrong things about languages and literature and religion in this thread, but this bit right here is so incredibly wrong that all I can do is point you at Wikipedia and then go hide from the internet for a while.

[Seraphim24]

Holy crap, you've said a lot of wrong things about languages and literature and religion in this thread, but this bit right here is so incredibly wrong that all I can do is point you at Wikipedia and then go hide from the internet for a while.

 

It was all from wikipedia more or less unfortunately, don't blame the messenger here.  

 

I also read some other things that sort of played into all this I'll go ahead and spew, again, this is from wikipedia

 

Spoiler

The origin of the Trinity or the division of "God" into the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was considered by some at various times to be a form of "polytheism," since it wasn't a part of the original doctrines of Jesus Christ.... again just a point that has been leveled by others not me. 

 

Moreover this element found itself into even Protestantism as well, and a variety of other variations on Christianity. Of course, the controversy doctrine found it's way into other discussions and discussions on religion and Christianity generally. For instance, the Methodists were accepting of most of the central creeds however their leader John Wesley was later troubled by the elements specifically in the Athenasian Creed regarding condemnation for all those who were not aware of important elements and thus the only people would be saved were trained clergy and such members, so it would condemn everyone who was not a part of this kind of specialized class. 

 

Others such as the Presybterians or Anglicans or various members of various churches were alternately more accepting or less accepting of the concept of the Trinity and elements of the Athenasian Creed. 

 

Anyway, frustration with Trinitarian elements ultimately found it's most ardent expression in the form of the "Jehovah's Witnesses" who advocated by their own words a return to "1st Century" christianity, which meant denying pretty much most of the creeds and an acknowledgement of the central force behind Christianity "God" himself (or Jehovah). 

 

Obviously, all these religions all have separate elements such as Jehovah's witnesses emphasis on Satan and Armageddon. But anyway, if we're just talking about run-of-the-mill "Catholicism" it seems to wise just what that means in specific different contexts because oftentimes it's hard to understand what that means with so many variations on "Christianity" that people as I say in the wikipedia will say accords with this or that. 

 

Anyway, for my own part, it seemed to me that saying LOTR represents "Catholicism" or that "Catholicism" must automatically mean "Christianity" would be a bit of a stretch based on all the things I've read, some people seem to think the issue is more complicated than that. But as I say, that's not me that's the people who are telling me more or less through wikipedia and such...

 

Going off gut and instinct I don't think Tolkien was trying to make a "Catholic" work or a "Viking" work I think he was combing different elements, the end result is as I've stated apparently more Viking than Christian, but could hardly be easily summarized as belonging to both.