28 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

This still annoys me.  You defeat Alexius, take the amulet, you return to Haven, close the Breach, the Red Templars show up, Haven's destroyed, you flee to Skyhold . . . why didn't this happen shortly afterward:

 

Inquisitor: "Dorian, you still know how to work that amulet, right?"

Dorian:  "Uh, sort of . . . "

Inquisitor:  "I want you to send me back in time so that we can save the Templars who weren't turned."

Dorian: "This is incredibly risky."

Inquisitor: "This is a war.  Getting up in the morning is risky."

Dorian:  "Well, I can't argue with that."

 

It would have been so cool, particularly if there was a mechanic where if you screwed up in such a way that it should have borked the Original Timeline, you got a Game Over screen.  "So, tell me, have you been paying attention?"

 

Stuff you couldn't do:

 

Kill Samson (he shows up later)

Kill Knight-Captain Denam (he shows up later)

Allow the rescued templars to interfere with the battle at Haven (they'd have to hide until after)

Kill the Envy Demon (it can show up later)

 

How do you make this interesting instead of just a "solve everything ever" situation:

 

Make it so that you have to kill off several of your companions in order to not do the stuff listed above, because they basically have to sacrifice themselves to distract Samson/Denam/the Envy Demon long enough for you to rescue the templars and get away.  So, you can rescue the templars AND recruit the mages--but three of your companions pay the price for it.  Maybe have some minor options along the way where you  might be able to save one or two depending on who you bring.

 

Cool AND evil.

[Dai Grepher]

Or just leave Redcliffe and go to Therinfal as you would have normally if you had just gone to Therinfal from the start. Redcliffe only holds you up by about five hours, tops.

[nightscrawl]

I'm not sure Dorian would go along with that. It's one thing to use the amulet to go back whence you came, but another entirely to use it to again attempt to manipulate time. Dorian tries to impress upon you the gravity of the situation and the dangers that come with attempting to manipulate time.

[Big I]

Or just leave Redcliffe and go to Therinfal as you would have normally if you had just gone to Therinfal from the start. Redcliffe only holds you up by about five hours, tops.

 

I never thought about this but it is brilliant. You even have Alexius with you to oversee the attempt, and he's proof that it's possible (it's presumably how he managed to get to Redcliffe before you and change Fiona's timeline).

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Better still why can't we go get the Templars to help us deal with the mages in Red Cliff, then have Corypheus and the Venatori, Red Templars that were not at Therenfall and, Calpernia's forces all attack haven together. The proceed as normal with both the mages and Templars united under the Inquisition. Makes more sense to want Templars to help fight magic/ a magister and, of course we aren't letting Tevinter have Red Cliff.

[Toasted Llama]

How do you make this interesting instead of just a "solve everything ever" situation:

 

Make it so that you have to kill off several of your companions in order to not do the stuff listed above, because they basically have to sacrifice themselves to distract Samson/Denam/the Envy Demon long enough for you to rescue the templars and get away.  So, you can rescue the templars AND recruit the mages--but three of your companions pay the price for it.  Maybe have some minor options along the way where you  might be able to save one or two depending on who you bring.

 

Knowing how many players hate Vivienne, Sera and Blackwall to the point of not even recruiting them any longer (or wanting them dead), this is hardly making it interesting for them and mostly a "having your cake and eating it too" situation.

 

Also, certain companions can't be sacrificed because they're mandatory for the story, so if you take a team of Solas, Cassandra and Varric with you, you're basically gonna get out of the situation without losing any companions.

[SgtSteel91]

Isn't Time Travel only possible because of the Breach, which you closed?

[Gervaise]

Correct, if you want to travel in time again you have to do it before closing the Breach.   However, I think Dorian would simply refuse to do it because of the risks involved in tampering with time.   He already said how reality was being dangerously affected before Alexius shunted you forward in time.    In fact I wouldn't be surprised if once you got back safely he didn't destroy the amulet straight away, to ensure know one else could use it.   Or the return journey could have destroyed it anyway.

 

Basically you didn't need time magic to do both paths, simply have the plot written to allow it.    It is likely though that whichever you did second would result in more people from that faction dying but both locations are in Ferelden, so there is no real reason why you could not go to one after the other.    I'd have preferred the reverse route thought.   You go to the Templers to get some magic negating experts before marching on Redcliffe to eject the Magister.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm not sure Dorian would go along with that. It's one thing to use the amulet to go back whence you came, but another entirely to use it to again attempt to manipulate time. Dorian tries to impress upon you the gravity of the situation and the dangers that come with attempting to manipulate time.

 

Without ever mentioning any specific dangers other than the vague-sounding "ripping a hole in time".   Which means what, exactly?

[PsychoBlonde]

Isn't Time Travel only possible because of the Breach, which you closed?

 

No, it's only possible in the TIMELINE that CONTAINS the Breach EVENT, because the initiating event that caused the Breach made the magical power needed to travel through time accessible.  He couldn't undo the Breach event (and thus the Inquisitor's acquisition of the Anchor).  That's not to say that any fade rift wouldn't work just as well as a power source--Alexius was just using minor rifts, after all.

[PsychoBlonde]

Knowing how many players hate Vivienne, Sera and Blackwall to the point of not even recruiting them any longer (or wanting them dead), this is hardly making it interesting for them and mostly a "having your cake and eating it too" situation.

 

Also, certain companions can't be sacrificed because they're mandatory for the story, so if you take a team of Solas, Cassandra and Varric with you, you're basically gonna get out of the situation without losing any companions.

 

Cassandra is only mandatory for the story until you get to Skyhold, so make it wait until you get to Skyhold and no problem.  Varric can leave, so he's not mandatory.  Solas would be problematic, but some clever writing could deal with this problem (and would be quite interesting).  Actually, I see that more as an opportunity than a problem.

Also, the player's misanthropic tendencies don't change the in-game story alternative cost.  Some people hate Templars or Mages, too, but that's still an alternative.

[PsychoBlonde]

Or just leave Redcliffe and go to Therinfal as you would have normally if you had just gone to Therinfal from the start. Redcliffe only holds you up by about five hours, tops.

 

You have no idea how much time passed in the various jumps it took to set up the meeting with Alexius.  You go to Redcliffe, meet with Alexius, meet with Dorian, go BACK to Haven, meet with the War Council, plan the assault on Redcliffe, while you wait for Alexius to receive your agreement and reply, wait for your soldiers to get into position, and then go BACK to Redcliffe to meet with Alexius.  That's not five hours.

 

I suspect that after you send the message to Alexius telling him you agree to meet, he sends a message to the Venatori saying "Herald took the bait, start stage 2" and that's when the Red Templars take over Therinfall Redoubt--because *they know you're occupied*.

 

Plus you had to arrange for a bunch of nobles to get together and bully the Templars into talking to you.  That would have taken even more time, and once you dealt with Alexius the Venatori and Corypheus would know the cat was out of the bag--they wouldn't wait.

 

If you go directly to Therinfall the story is that you arrived only BARELY in time to save the lives of a FEW Templars.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Even if using the amulet again was possible, it wouldn't solve the issue that prevents you from recruiting both in the first place: without Divine Justinia (or maybe some other credibly neutral third party), neither side is willing to work with the other. Period. Full stop.

 

Which makes sense, given the setup. The Templars left because they didn't want someone else overriding their decisions about when and whether they could kidnap, jail, abuse, lobotomize, or kill mages. The mages were fed up with being kidnapped, jailed, abused, lobotomized and killed at the whim of an anti-mage religious army. The Inquisition, prior to dealing with the Winter Palace and perhaps Adamant, arguably doesn't have the reputation to be a credible alternative to Justinia as a peace broker.

 

Time was never the problem. Centuries of systemic abuse and fundamentally incompatible worldviews were the problem.

[MisterJB]

But if you went back in time to before the Templars were corrupted, that would take you to before Dorian has the amulet in his possession thus eliminating the means through wish you accomplished the time travel in the first place and furthermore, the mages would then be corrupted by Alexius because you were busy assisting the Templars.

[Dai Grepher]

I never thought about this but it is brilliant. You even have Alexius with you to oversee the attempt, and he's proof that it's possible (it's presumably how he managed to get to Redcliffe before you and change Fiona's timeline).

No, I mean you deal with Alexius, then go from Redcliffe to Therinfal. It's as if you went to Therinfal from the start since Redcliffe is on the way to Therinfal. Basically, IHW should just be a pit stop for the real quest in Therinfal.

 

You have no idea how much time passed in the various jumps it took to set up the meeting with Alexius.

You received the letter at Haven. Logically you would simply arrive at Redcliffe and see Alexius soon after. Five hours tops.

 

You go to Redcliffe, meet with Alexius, meet with Dorian, go BACK to Haven, meet with the War Council, plan the assault on Redcliffe, while you wait for Alexius to receive your agreement and reply, wait for your soldiers to get into position, and then go BACK to Redcliffe to meet with Alexius.  That's not five hours.

I wasn't referring to all that. Just the part where you decide to go to Redcliffe Castle. That takes five hours at the most.

 

I suspect that after you send the message to Alexius telling him you agree to meet, he sends a message to the Venatori saying "Herald took the bait, start stage 2" and that's when the Red Templars take over Therinfall Redoubt--because *they know you're occupied*.

Impossible. You arrive at Therinfal and Denam confirms that your early arrival has foiled the plan. It had nothing to do with the Herald going to Redcliffe or not, Envy needed time to turn the templars red. It's all about if you get to Therinfal in time or not. Redcliffe wouldn't have delayed you that long.

 

Plus you had to arrange for a bunch of nobles to get together and bully the Templars into talking to you.  That would have taken even more time, and once you dealt with Alexius the Venatori and Corypheus would know the cat was out of the bag--they wouldn't wait.

No, you can arrange for the nobles to go to Therinfal, and then you can go to Redcliffe. Then you should logically be able to leave Redcliffe after you're done and go to Therinfal.

As for Envy knowing, the fact that the Herald is at Therinfal at all is devastating to the plan. It doesn't matter if the Herald knows or not. The Herald was not supposed to be there. The plan to turn the templars red could not be rushed. It had a clearly set timetable. Redcliffe's timetable is much sooner, as you must solve the problem before the Ferelden monarch(s) show up to kick the mages out.

 

If you go directly to Therinfall the story is that you arrived only BARELY in time to save the lives of a FEW Templars.

Nothing indicated that the templars would not have lasted another five hours without you. And if the templars had been at risk, Envy would have initiated the attack before the Herald even arrived. They didn't attack because they couldn't. The only reason they attacked at all is because they were backed into a corner, and because Envy couldn't resist the chance to replace the Herald.

 

Better still why can't we go get the Templars to help us deal with the mages in Red Cliff, then have Corypheus and the Venatori, Red Templars that were not at Therenfall and, Calpernia's forces all attack haven together. The proceed as normal with both the mages and Templars united under the Inquisition. Makes more sense to want Templars to help fight magic/ a magister and, of course we aren't letting Tevinter have Red Cliff.

Because you only solve the problem with Alexius just mere minutes before Ferelden's monarch(s) arrive to kick them out. If you pass by Redcliffe to go to Therinfal, Alistair and/or Anora expel the mages. So we would only be able to do Redcliffe first, and then Therinfal.

[nightscrawl]

Even if using the amulet again was possible, it wouldn't solve the issue that prevents you from recruiting both in the first place: without Divine Justinia (or maybe some other credibly neutral third party), neither side is willing to work with the other. Period. Full stop.

 

Which makes sense, given the setup. The Templars left because they didn't want someone else overriding their decisions about when and whether they could kidnap, jail, abuse, lobotomize, or kill mages. The mages were fed up with being kidnapped, jailed, abused, lobotomized and killed at the whim of an anti-mage religious army. The Inquisition, prior to dealing with the Winter Palace and perhaps Adamant, arguably doesn't have the reputation to be a credible alternative to Justinia as a peace broker.

 

Time was never the problem. Centuries of systemic abuse and fundamentally incompatible worldviews were the problem.

 

Regardless of whether you recruit the templars or mages, there are still some templars and some mages at the same time in the Inquisition. For example, after you recruit the mages, the first dialogue with Vivienne is concerning templars and the possibility of training more. Fiona also has remarks about minor clashes with the Inquisition templars, and there is some stuff later on about them working together.

 

The Divine didn't really have control over the templars, but the Inquisition templars don't have a choice in the matter. If the Inquisition leadership wants to maintain a tight leash over them in regard to their handling of mages, they can and will do that. So there doesn't have to be those same kinds of abuses that led to the conflicts.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Regardless of whether you recruit the templars or mages, there are still some templars and some mages at the same time in the Inquisition. For example, after you recruit the mages, the first dialogue with Vivienne is concerning templars and the possibility of training more. Fiona also has remarks about minor clashes with the Inquisition templars, and there is some stuff later on about them working together.

 

The Divine didn't really have control over the templars, but the Inquisition templars don't have a choice in the matter. If the Inquisition leadership wants to maintain a tight leash over them in regard to their handling of mages, they can and will do that. So there doesn't have to be those same kinds of abuses that led to the conflicts.

True enough; Lysette signs on right away, for example, and doesn't leave even if you recruit the mages as full allies. I should have been more clear that I meant the templars who broke away to follow Lord Seeker Lucius - the Templars who are 'officially' recruited, and the ones who you get a War Table notice about not being able to approach if you go after the mages.

 

I mean, I think it's a cheaply forced either-or. Barris seems perfectly reasonable, as does Fiona absent the exaggerated 'threat' Alexius manufactured to get her onside. I wish it had been a more quarian/geth situation; recruit the vast majority of one and get the reasonable and disaffected dregs of the other, rather than cutting one off as potential allies at all. But the way it's set up you only get to officially recruit one faction (even if you end up with straggler singletons from both), and the reason for that isn't something messing around with the timeline will fix. Not without being able to go past the fixed beginning of the timeline and approach both before the Conclave.

[nightscrawl]

Well it is forced, but it's a gamey thing. You can't have both, they want the player to choose, so the reason you are given is that there is not enough time to go for both.

 

As interesting as the actual CotJ mission is, and the post results in the game (Calpernia instead of Samson), I have problems with the way the lead up is presented to the player and it requires heavy roleplay for me to even consider it; I usually don't bother.

[thats1evildude]

Time travel or no, I agree with what others said: the Templars would not be open to an alliance with the Inquisition if you had allied with the rebel mages.

[Dai Grepher]

How would they know you allied with them?

[thats1evildude]

How would they know you allied with them?

Because of all the rebel mages running around Haven?

[GoldenGail3]

No, cause that'd ruin the timeline and cause a paradox that could destroy the world... I think...

[KaiserShep]

How would they know you allied with them?

 

 

There's absolutely no way that the Inquisition could conceal this fact from the Templars. All it would take is any of the formerly rogue Templars to try to tell any of the mages what to do, and subsequently being told to shove off that would tip them to the fact that they're not prisoners of the Inquisition.

[Dai Grepher]

No no, I mean how would the templars know you allied with the mages before you go the Therinfal? You could have the mages as allies, then go the Therinfal, help the templars, and then they would pledge their service to the Inquisition. They wouldn't learn the mages had become allies until after arriving at Haven, but by then they have already sworn to help you.

[Just Here For Popcorns]

Thing I wanted to do after Redcliff was to execute poor excuse of grand enchanter that is Alistar's mother Shitona...I would be so happy.

I mean common,we get to seal fate of badass by name of Barris but we can't do single thing about that bish?Most disappointing thing ever!