196 ответов в этой теме

[Catilina]

^

Yes, that is the one I was talking about. I usually try not to concentrate on Hawke there. Actually, that scene was the reason I decided to try a female Hawke/Anders romance, but just couldn't get through with it and ended up romancing Fenris instead.

My Hawke's movement was too dainty (or whatever is the correct term) at this scene. I never feel that for example with Fenris (as male too, ofc.) ...

But this is the only lame thing. Anders' story, the relationship beetven them better with male Hawke.

[R0vena]

My Hawke's movement was too dainty (or whatever is the correct term) at this scene. I never feel that with Fenris (with, male too, ofc.) ...

I am not sure, but I think I've read somewhere that Fenris romance was designed with male Hawke in mind. However, I usually romance him with a female (did male once just to see if it would have any difference)  and it felt quite organic in all his scenes.

[Catilina]

I am not sure, but I think I've read somewhere that Fenris romance was designed with male Hawke in mind. However, I usually romance him with a female (did male once just to see if it would have any difference)  and it felt quite organic in all his scenes.

I also heard this (and I feel it with Fenris), but I thought I heard the same thing from Anders romance too... and I say, this supported by a quite important moment and talk with Anders.

[R0vena]

I also heard this (and I feel it with Fenris), but I thought I heard the same thing from Anders romance too... and I say, this supported by a quite important moment and talk with Anders.

Really? I never got any special feeling with Fenris + mHawke romance, but it was a long time ago and I could just forget. Maybe I should try it again sometime.)

 

I wonder sometimes if that famous confession about Karl to male Hawke was there (among other reasons) to show players that Anders was available. I mean, after Awakening most assumed he was straight, talks of pretty girls and all. But since that seems quite important insight into character and f'Hawke doesn't get it at all now it seems more natural to go with Anders + m'Hawke romance.

[GoldenGail3]

Male Hawke; due to the hidden dialogues about Anders and Karl being together; but I played as a Female Hawke while romancing him, so yeah,   

[Sah291]

Chantry destruction has nothing to do with it. He promises you sun, moon and all the stars, but in reality it is Hawke who always has to do something. You love me? Prove it, let me move in with you. You love me? Help me sneak into the Chantry and don't ask questions. I am sure Anders really means what he says in theory, but in reality Hawke will never be his number 1 priority, not even number 2 or 3. The moment Anders will find himself in the situation "Hawke or justice" Hawke will be done for. Anders in this situation will probably not be capable of bearing the choice he had to make and most likely commit suicide. That is not happened yet doesn't change anything. That is why I think it will end in tragedy no matter what and that for both of them it is actually much better chance for happy(ish) ending if they don't romance each other.

But hey, it is just my vision. If somebody is sure that Anders and Hawke will have their happy ever after, I am not going to argue, I am just explaining my own point of view. To each their own.

Hmm, I think Sebastian is right about Anders being selfish...in the sense that he acts insecure and jealous. I think that plays into why he still doesn't trust friended Hawke 100% no matter what you do.

I think he does really love Hawke, but he is afraid Hawke either couldn't possibly really love him back (or shouldn't because he thinks he's a demon/abomination), or that Hawke might value other things over him and his cause (which is an important part of who he is). If you press him later in the quest line he reveals what he really is upset about- Hawke choosing the Chantry and Templars over him. Which, if you remember what happened to Karl, he must really fear. Another reason why male Hawke changes perspective on the romance. Anders' insecurity really makes sense if you know about Karl.

[Lulupab]

Hmm, I think Sebastian is right about Anders being selfish...in the sense that he acts insecure and jealous. I think that plays into why he still doesn't trust friended Hawke 100% no matter what you do.

I think he does really love Hawke, but he is afraid Hawke either couldn't possibly really love him back (or shouldn't because he thinks he's a demon/abomination), or that Hawke might value other things over him and his cause (which is an important part of who he is). If you press him later in the quest line he reveals what he really is upset about- Hawke choosing the Chantry and Templars over him. Which, if you remember what happened to Karl, he must really fear. Another reason why male Hawke changes perspective on the romance. Anders' insecurity really makes sense if you know about Karl.

 

He does though? I mean trust Hawke. There is dialogue with star icon if Anders is a 100% friend by act 3. If you choose that Anders actually tells you he is going to do something incriminating but doesn't want to involve Hawke in it. This is right before his act 3 quest. Its because of this that Hawke is not blamed for destruction of Chantry, because Anders does it a way that he alone is seen responsible.

[Sah291]

He does though? I mean trust Hawke. There is dialogue with star icon if Anders is a 100% friend by act 3. If you choose that Anders actually tells you he is going to do something incriminating but doesn't want to involve Hawke in it. This is right before his act 3 quest. Its because of this that Hawke is not blamed for destruction of Chantry, because Anders does it a way that he alone is seen responsible.

I'm basing it on the line in the Gallows if you spare him. He says something like "I should have trusted you."

But yeah, you could argue he decided to let himself be the scapegoat in order to protect Hawke. Which I don't see someone doing if they didn't love them. There are a lot of ways to interpret it.

[R0vena]

I think he does really love Hawke, but he is afraid Hawke either couldn't possibly really love him back (or shouldn't because he thinks he's a demon/abomination)

Considering Anders kind of throws a jealous feat  and practically outright asks why Hawke couldn't choose somebody more suitable (almost pointing finger at himself) if Hawke romances somebody else I really don't think he feels that unworthy. Maybe in some moments (like right after meeting Ella), but not in general.

[Sah291]

Considering Anders kind of throws a jealous feat  and practically outright asks why Hawke couldn't choose somebody more suitable (almost pointing finger at himself) if Hawke romances somebody else I really don't think he feels that unworthy. Maybe in some moments (like right after meeting Ella), but not in general.

Yeah he's pretty jealous...but a lot of the time jealousy like that is just insecurity. Note how he has to put down the LI you picked. In the actual romance he's practically waiting for Hawke to give up on him, and is craving attention/acceptance from the start.

[R0vena]

But yeah, you could argue he decided to let himself be the scapegoat in order to protect Hawke. Which I don't see someone doing if they didn't love them. There are a lot of ways to interpret it.

I agree and want to present my way of interpreting it.

 

The best way for Anders to be sure Hawke is not blamed was: 

 

1. Not to involve him in the quest in the first place. Either tell him the truth or at least "I am doing something illegal" part before the ingredient gathering, not after. Hawke is an accessory in this case no matter what. 

2. Not to declare that he (Anders) is responsible. Everybody knows Anders relationship with Hawke - Meredith says loud and clear that ties to the Champion is the only reason Anders is still free. And if romanced Anders is living with Hawke for three years now. What are the chances people will believe Hawke is not involved? Heck, Cassandra was sure Hawke was behind everything, where did she get that idea from?

 

So I don't think Anders made himself a scapegoat to save Hawke. He did it because it was the only way to insure the result he wanted - the Right of Annulment. If he would not confess on the spot mages might not have been blamed (not right away without the investigation, anyway). And so it would be no confrontation he wanted.

[Biotic Apostate]

Considering Anders kind of throws a jealous feat  and practically outright asks why Hawke couldn't choose somebody more suitable (almost pointing finger at himself) if Hawke romances somebody else I really don't think he feels that unworthy. Maybe in some moments (like right after meeting Ella), but not in general.

People are complicated. The view that he's in love with Hawke no matter what is pretty much supported by canon. He can, at the same time, really want to be with Hawke and be jealous, and think that he's unworthy of Hawke. All of the companions from 2 are complex, they have conflicting feelings, get pushed and pulled in different directions (that's also why rivalmances worked).

In a romance path, he gives in after 3 years, and he spends the third act trying to distance Hawke. The feeling of unworthiness is almost definitely there, the jealousy in the unromanced path is his craving for affection winning out with that feeling.

[R0vena]

Yeah he's pretty jealous...but a lot of the time jealousy like that is just insecurity. Note how he has to put down the LI you picked. In the actual romance he's practically waiting for Hawke to give up on him, and is craving attention/acceptance from the start.

In one of the first conversation Anders does say that it will be better for Hawke to not get involved with him. But that jealous outburst makes even less sense then. You said we shouldn't be involved. We are not involved. Now what you are complaining about?

 

I personally think Anders changed his mind since then. Maybe he just trusts Hawke a bit more now and think they could have had a chance.

[Catilina]

I think, Anders just wanted to make possible that Hawke do not blame himself.

[R0vena]

People are complicated. The view that he's in love with Hawke no matter what is pretty much supported by canon. He can, at the same time, really want to be with Hawke and be jealous, and think that he's unworthy of Hawke. All of the companions from 2 are complex, they have conflicting feelings, get pushed and pulled in different directions (that's also why rivalmances worked).

In a romance path, he gives in after 3 years, and he spends the third act trying to distance Hawke. The feeling of unworthiness is almost definitely there, the jealousy in the unromanced path is his craving for affection winning out with that feeling.

Oh, I don't dispute that Anders is complicated and could feel all that at once. I just don't think he feels that all the time.

[R0vena]

I think, Anders just wanted to make possible that Hawke do not blame himself.

That is an interesting assumption. I didn't think of that.

 

ps (edit) but did he really need the declaration in front of Meredith for that?

[Sah291]

I agree and want to present my way of interpreting it.
 
The best way for Anders to be sure Hawke is not blamed was: 
 
1. Not to involve him in the quest in the first place. Either tell him the truth or at least "I am doing something illegal" part before the ingredient gathering, not after. Hawke is an accessory in this case no matter what. 
2. Not to declare that he (Anders) is responsible. Everybody knows Anders relationship with Hawke - Meredith says loud and clear that ties to the Champion is the only reason Anders is still free. And if romanced Anders is living with Hawke for three years now. What are the chances people will believe Hawke is not involved? Heck, Cassandra was sure Hawke was behind everything, where did she get that idea from?
 
So I don't think Anders made himself a scapegoat to save Hawke. He did it because it was the only way to insure the result he wanted - the Right of Annulment. If he would not confess on the spot mages might not have been blamed (not right away without the investigation, anyway). And so it would be no confrontation he wanted.

Well to me he always comes across conflicted. He doesn't want to involve Hawke...but he does...for whatever reasons.

It does two things. Insurance in case Hawke sides with the Chantry/Templars, he/she is implicated...and so all the more likely to kill Anders on the spot, and thus make him a martyr. If Hawke sides with the mages, Hawke is only indirectly implicated, and Justice could live with that I suppose.

[R0vena]

Well to me he always comes across conflicted. He doesn't want to involve Hawke...but he does...for whatever reasons.

It does two things. Insurance in case Hawke sides with the Chantry/Templars, he/she is implicated...and so all the more likely to kill Anders on the spot, and thus make him a martyr. If Hawke sides with the mages, Hawke is only indirectly implicated, and Justice could live with that I suppose.

Sorry, can you clarify? Why is Hawke implicated if siding with Templars, but only indirectly if siding with mages?

[R0vena]

Well to me he always comes across conflicted. He doesn't want to involve Hawke...but he does...for whatever reasons.

I thought of something! Maybe it is related to Vengeance. Vengeance has his own views and they are not always the same as Anders'. So.. Anders does not want Hawke to be involved, but Vengeance does (since Hawke's help will make things easier).

 

ps it is so nice to see different points of view sometimes, you can even get some new ideas...))

[Biotic Apostate]

That is an interesting assumption. I didn't think of that.

 

ps (edit) but did he really need the declaration in front of Meredith for that?

You mean the declaration that he did it? Well yeah, the point was that he alone was to be blamed for the chantry and Meredith ignored it and punished the circle instead. It was supposed to be a clear sign to the circle mages that their innocence is meaningless, to make them see circles are not a viable solution in that shape. If nobody knew, who was involved, the Annulment would have been seen as justified. The Annulment was not directly his goal - an unwarranted Annulment was.

[Sah291]

Sorry, can you clarify? Why is Hawke implicated if siding with Templars, but only indirectly if siding with mages?

Well Hawke is implicated in both instances. But I mean from Hawke's perspective, he/she has a personal reason to act to prove his/her loyalty, or share the same fate.

[R0vena]

You mean the declaration that he did it? Well yeah, the point was that he alone was to be blamed for the chantry and Meredith ignored it and punished the circle instead. It was supposed to be a clear sign to the circle mages that their innocence is meaningless, to make them see circles are not a viable solution in that shape. If nobody knew, who was involved, the Annulment would have been seen as justified. The Annulment was not directly his goal - an unwarranted Annulment was.

 

Interesting. You may be right, but I confess I see it completely differently. What caused the explosion was alchemy, not magic. Anybody could have done it. Why not Qunary spies, for example? And Anders' goal was to provoke the point of no return when mages have no other way than to fight with no chance of compromise -  he wanted the Right of Annulment. If he alone was to be punished - what was the point in the first place?

 

 

Well Hawke is implicated in both instances. But I mean from Hawke's perspective, he/she has a personal reason to act to prove his/her loyalty, or share the same fate.

Ah, I think I understand now, thank you.

[Biotic Apostate]

Well Hawke is implicated in both instances. But I mean from Hawke's perspective, he/she has a personal reason to act to prove his/her loyalty, or share the same fate.

I think in both cases Anders wanted Hawke to turn away from him. Letting Anders die as a punishment (or killing him himself) would absolve Hawke of any responsibility, no matter which side he chooses. Hawke is either Anders' friend or lover, for many this is implicating enough. Even a supportive Hawke is left to further the cause, without soiling his hands.

[Catilina]

Interesting. You may be right, but I confess I see it completely differently. What caused the explosion was alchemy, not magic. Anybody could have done it. Why not Qunary spies, for example? And Anders' goal was to provoke the point of no return when mages have no other way than to fight with no chance of compromise -  he wanted the Right of Annulment. If he alone was to be punished - what was the point in the first place?

 

I suppose, there would no point of explosion, if they think that made by a qunari for example. They needed to know why the explosion occurred. 

Anders wanted it to be clear: the Circle-system was the cause. (At least I think it logical)

[R0vena]

I think in both cases Anders wanted Hawke to turn away from him. Letting Anders die as a punishment (or killing him himself) would absolve Hawke of any responsibility, no matter which side he chooses. Hawke is either Anders' friend or lover, for many this is implicating enough. Even a supportive Hawke is left to further the cause, without soiling his hands.

I think, I agree. It makes sense and fits Anders personality.

 

Didn't work that well considering Cassandra was still blaming Hawke, but it is already different story.