I suppose, there would no point of explosion, if they think that made by a qunari for example. They needed to know why the explosion occurred.
Anders wanted it to be clear: the Circle-system was the cause. (At least I think it logical)
So... you don't think Anders actually wanted or expected the Right of Annulment?
Interesting. You may be right, but I confess I see it completely differently. What caused the explosion was alchemy, not magic. Anybody could have done it. Why not Qunary spies, for example? And Anders' goal was to provoke the point of no return when mages have no other way than to fight with no chance of compromise - he wanted the Right of Annulment. If he alone was to be punished - what was the point in the first place?
Oh no, he absolutely wanted to provoke that situation, that point of no return. He knew Meredith would punish the circle instead of him. The just punishment should fall only on him, and Meredith's actions were supposed to clearly show that the truth or justice didn't matter, only her bloodlust for killing mages. For his plan to spark a revolution, there needed to be a clear perpetrator (Anders) and a clear misuse of the Annulment for mages in this and other circles to see that templars do not care about their lives. I may have been unclear, but obviously Anders didn't expect to be the only one punished. It would have been easier to blame the blood mages from the circle for the explosion, if no clear culprit was evident. As I said, an Annulment alone would not have been enough - it had to be clear that it was unwarranted.
The point that he didn't expect to survive is a different matter (you can see that, when he starts giving away his possessions).
Oh no, he absolutely wanted to provoke that situation, that point of no return. He knew Meredith would punish the circle instead of him. The just punishment should fall only on him, and Meredith's actions were supposed to clearly show that the truth or justice didn't matter, only her bloodlust for killing mages. For his plan to spark a revolution, there needed to be a clear perpetrator (Anders) and a clear misuse of the Annulment for mages in this and other circles to see that templars do not care about their lives. I may have been unclear, but obviously Anders didn't expect to be the only one punished. It would have been easier to blame the blood mages from the circle for the explosion, if no clear culprit was evident. As I said, an Annulment alone would not have been enough - it had to be clear that it was unwarranted.
The point that he didn't expect to survive is a different matter (you can see that, when he starts giving away his possessions).
Ah, ok. I just misunderstood. I fully agree with that.
I think, I agree. It makes sense and fits Anders personality.
Didn't work that well considering Cassandra was still blaming Hawke, but it is already different story.
I think that was more the fault of the mechanic the game used. Cassandra was supposed to represent the audience (and Varric the storyteller). She had to reflect the feeling of the players and be surprised by Anders' actions. I think one of the books showed that it was known, who was responsible.
I think that was more the fault of the mechanic the game used. Cassandra was supposed to represent the audience (and Varric the storyteller). She had to reflect the feeling of the players and be surprised by Anders' actions. I think one of the books showed that it was known, who was responsible.
Might be, might be.
But when Varric says he wants the truth to be known I always thought it meant that quite a lot of people are still blaming Hawke. But it could mean he just wants to tell Hawke's story in general, I suppose.
Might be, might be.
But when Varric says he wants the truth to be known I always thought it meant that quite a lot of people are still blaming Hawke. But it could mean he just wants to tell Hawke's story in general, I suppose.
I guess hearsay is more prevalent in a pre-journalism world. I personally think it's more about telling his story, he was spinning tales about Hawke's exploits even during DA2. And I like to think Hawke did not care for the book (gah, I can't remember, if it was in the game or not, I think there was a line about Hawke sending a thank you note to an Orlesian noble, who reviewed the book negatively).
I guess hearsay is more prevalent in a pre-journalism world. I personally think it's more about telling his story, he was spinning tales about Hawke's exploits even during DA2. And I like to think Hawke did not care for the book (gah, I can't remember, if it was in the game or not, I think there was a line about Hawke sending a thank you note to an Orlesian noble, who reviewed the book negatively).
Yes, some movement in the bed scene a bit disturbing with male Hawke, I also feel that. The mistake that designed same scene to male and female Hawke, so it's hard to being equally credible, I think. Everything else, however, is better with M!Hawke, as I see.
PS: A little detour there is nothing wrong, I think it could be interesting.
I just watched the male bed scene on YT and I don't see what's wrong with it. I get that you might imagine your own Hawke to act in a certain way, but that is one benefit of the fade to black, after all. Who knows what happened after that point?
Oh no, he absolutely wanted to provoke that situation, that point of no return. He knew Meredith would punish the circle instead of him. The just punishment should fall only on him, and Meredith's actions were supposed to clearly show that the truth or justice didn't matter, only her bloodlust for killing mages. For his plan to spark a revolution, there needed to be a clear perpetrator (Anders) and a clear misuse of the Annulment for mages in this and other circles to see that templars do not care about their lives. I may have been unclear, but obviously Anders didn't expect to be the only one punished. It would have been easier to blame the blood mages from the circle for the explosion, if no clear culprit was evident. As I said, an Annulment alone would not have been enough - it had to be clear that it was unwarranted.
The point that he didn't expect to survive is a different matter (you can see that, when he starts giving away his possessions).
I think that was more the fault of the mechanic the game used. Cassandra was supposed to represent the audience (and Varric the storyteller). She had to reflect the feeling of the players and be surprised by Anders' actions. I think one of the books showed that it was known, who was responsible.
I just watched the male bed scene on YT and I don't see what's wrong with it. I get that you might imagine your own Hawke to act in a certain way, but that is one benefit of the fade to black, after all. Who knows what happened after that point?
Haha, true.
I've written, why, but I really do not know, it was just a moment when I felt that they designed the scene for female character.
Oh no, he absolutely wanted to provoke that situation, that point of no return. He knew Meredith would punish the circle instead of him. The just punishment should fall only on him, and Meredith's actions were supposed to clearly show that the truth or justice didn't matter, only her bloodlust for killing mages. For his plan to spark a revolution, there needed to be a clear perpetrator (Anders) and a clear misuse of the Annulment for mages in this and other circles to see that templars do not care about their lives. I may have been unclear, but obviously Anders didn't expect to be the only one punished. It would have been easier to blame the blood mages from the circle for the explosion, if no clear culprit was evident. As I said, an Annulment alone would not have been enough - it had to be clear that it was unwarranted.
The point that he didn't expect to survive is a different matter (you can see that, when he starts giving away his possessions).
I did this I could not have summed up so well.
***
I think it does not matter to him (mostly to Justice/Vengeance) to survive, the goal succeed, and tthe purpose is better suited to be a martyr. Anders was visibly horrified by what he has done, therefore, acquiesce in the possibility of death. In addition, he thinks that his death freed Justice. He was always very sad, that his hatred of the Templars had corrupted Justice. However, if Hawke would spare his life (f*** Sebastian and his blackmail!), Anders grateful for it, and I really like the scene at the Gallow. Then he finally hopeful, and maybe able for some happyness (not just for one or two stolen moment)!
Yeah he says the story is too absurd to possibly be true, or something like that? So Hawke writes a letter and thanks him.
It's from a codex in DAI I think.
Thanks for pointing me towards writing, not dialogue. I don't know, if it ended up in DAI, but it definitely appeared in World of Thedas vol. 2 first (p.160).
His most recent book, The Tale of the Champion, is also his only work of nonfiction, and details the life of Varric's friend Hawke, the famous (or infamous) Champion of Kirkwall, and the events leading up up to the explosion that destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry in 9:37 Dragon. Oddly, the book has been received as if it was another novel. One Antivan critic notoriously complained that the book’s premise was implausible and that it was impossible that any one person could befriend such a baffling assortment of ruffians as Hawke did. He gave the book one star. Supposedly, Hawke sent him a letter of thanks.
That doesn't take Hawke's personality into account, but it's so spot on for a purple one 
(sorry for OT)
f*** Sebastian and his blackmail!
Yes! I really hated Sebastian so much. That moment, and when he talked to Fenris about telling the templars about Anders and Merril were the two situations, when I really wanted a renegade option to kick his butt.
Of course Anders will feel guilty for what he has done, but I think that they can have a happy future too. Add a headcanon about Justice delaying the Calling, and they have a lot of happy years. And I'll ignore the Trespasser slides, neither Hawke, nor Anders would want to return to Kirkwall.
^ I somehow doubt they will be using Hawke again, so I think you're safe in your headcanon.
Yes! I really hated Sebastian so much. That moment, and when he talked to Fenris about telling the templars about Anders and Merril were the two situations, when I really wanted a renegade option to kick his butt.
Of course Anders will feel guilty for what he has done, but I think that they can have a happy future too. Add a headcanon about Justice delaying the Calling, and they have a lot of happy years. And I'll ignore the Trespasser slides, neither Hawke, nor Anders would want to return to Kirkwall.
^ I somehow doubt they will be using Hawke again, so I think you're safe in your headcanon.
Yeah, and I think it's for the best. A player controlled character (even if they are fairly defined as in DA2 and ME) turning into an NPC creates too many problems to be worth it.
...and (possible) disappointment.
I almost forgot:
Anders not lie to Hawke. Nor a single min at! When Hawke ask Anders from the potion ingredients and any may necessary rituals: Anders replied that there no need ritual for it, just mix the ingredients, "and BOOM, Justice and I'm free".
This is the truth itself. (One of my favourite conversation.)
(By the way: Anders is able to lie at all? Justice is able to lie at all?)
I almost forgot:
Anders not lie to Hawke. Nor a single min at! When Hawke ask Anders from the potion ingredients and any may necessary rituals: Anders replied that there no need ritual for it, just mix the ingredients, "and BOOM, Justice and I'm free".
This is the truth itself. (One of my favourite conversation.)
(By the way: Anders is able to lie at all? Justice is able to lie at all?)
Sorry, I don't buy that. Whether the exact words, in that order, are true or not doesn't matter. He does intentionally mislead Hawke. I think it's even worse for a romance play since the suggestion is that he and Justice will be separated, and his lover would naturally want to help with that. If you are 100% on board with his plan to blow up the chantry and support him in that aspect, fine, but he says the same thing to ALL Hawkes, regardless of their previously stated opinion on the matter. It's one thing for Anders to do a terrible act, feel guilty about it, and then want to die later on. But he doesn't do that. He forces Hawke to be culpable in those deaths because he got them to help, and then tries to guilt trip if they raise questions about it.
[edit]
Because I know someone will bring it up, yeah Hawke is a murder monster combat god and kills hundreds of people during the game. Not the same thing.
No, if you betray Anders/Justice in the fade and trick Topor the sloth demon, he has a line after admitting that Justice doesn't understand lying and wouldn't have understood.
I guess I really wouldn't call it a lie either. It is more a case of "listen carefully to my exact words". He tells you the plan, but because he can't lie, it has a double meaning.
Varric also says Anders was a bad liar, that even Hawke's dog was a better card player. I guess that's meant to be an inside joke at the player for being tricked?
Who says Anders can't lie? He wasn't Anders in the Fade, he was Justice. Anders is the one who misleads Hawke, not Justice. The whole point of the dynamic is that they fight for control, with Anders having more or less control depending on the friendship or romance path.
Modificata da nightscrawl, 10 giugno 2016 - 06:15 .
I think the implication is that they are too intertwined by the end of the game. On friendship, Anders says he can't tell the difference anymore. They become one. And on rivalry, Justice is strong enough to fully take control even when they disagree, and Anders has blanks in his memory.Who says Anders can't lie? He wasn't Anders in the Fade, he was Justice. Anders is the one who misleads Hawke, not Justice. The whole point of the dynamic is that they fight for control, with Anders having more or less control depending on the friendship or romance path.
^ I accept that. I suppose I just dislike the suggestion that "Oh he doesn't really lie, exactly, so it's all okay," and that Hawke, and the player, aren't allowed to be pissed over it or else they're some sort of insensitive (to his issues) a-hole.
I'm not accusing you of that, but it does seem to be a general attitude.
There is a thing in the Star Trek universe where vulcans don't lie. They're are not incapable of lying, their heads don't explode if they tell a lie, it is just a behavior they rigidly conform to as a race almost all the time. But there are scenes in the original Trek series, and in the movies, where Spock "exaggerates" or allows an "omission" that skirt around it. Sure, it's not a lie, but he knows what he's doing. So does Anders, even if he feels bad about it.
^ Heh I am reminded of one post I saw early on after I finished DA2. This person said they knew, or at least were suspicious, about Anders's plan because they thought that sela petrae was analogous to saltpeter, an explosive ingredient.
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