196 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Catilina]

^ I accept that. I suppose I just dislike the suggestion that "Oh he doesn't really lie, exactly, so it's all okay," and that Hawke, and the player, aren't allowed to be pissed over it or else they're some sort of insensitive (to his issues) a-hole.

 

I'm not accusing you of that, but it does seem to be a general attitude.

 

There is a thing in the Star Trek universe where vulcans don't lie. They're are not incapable of lying, their heads don't explode if they tell a lie, it is just a behavior they rigidly conform to as a race almost all the time. But there are scenes in the original Trek series, and in the movies, where Spock "exaggerates" or allows an "omission" that skirt around it. Sure, it's not a lie, but he knows what he's doing. So does Anders, even if he feels bad about it.

 

I think, he did not want to lie, but he had must to lie, because he needed Hawke's help, and he afraid of being rejected, but he wanted also to save Hawke from the remorse. I think it is, it's not right, but somewhat understandable from his point of view.

(He just wanted too much at once. We can't sin, while innocent to stay...)

 

This is not an excuse, but it seems the only solution to me in this regard. Not a good, solution, just the only solution. If he is completely honest, hes whole goal at risk  (he have only Hawke, who could have helped him). He can't do it, because of Justice.

 

Eh, perhaps I seems amoral, but I can understand his situation: the purpose was much important for Anders/Justice, than his love/friend. But Anders dont want to lose his love/friend. Anders just trying to do the impossible, to lie, but not to lie. 

[Spirit Vanguard]

Eheh… I’m apparently late to the party and you’ve already made your choice but… I agree it’s more enjoyable with a male Hawke, even though my first/default Hawke is still a female with Anders Romance. Male Hawke is better if only because he doesn’t push away a male. When Hawke is female he’s overwhelmingly concerned about hurting her, but not a male… I don’t understand the reasoning behind this, but that makes the difference for me. And I suppose as a result of this, and the Karl thing, it feels like you get closer to Anders – that he allows you to get closer to him. This is especially true with friendmance – rivalmance with Anders I just don’t understand. I naturally agree with him too much to be his rival.

 

Ultimately though, since Anders’ romance is my favorite of DA2, any Hawke is a win.     

[Spirit Vanguard]

Hm, I don't really agree with their opinion on this. Granted, I'm not bisexual so I am not speaking from experience on this specific issue, but I think someone who is bisexual would want to be open about their sexuality with a partner regardless of the partner's gender. It's a problem if they feel they need to hide their bisexuality from their partner if it's going to cause friction.

 

I hate getting caught up in labels, but this caught my eye: Anders is pansexual not bisexual, as his “loving the whole person, not a body” line suggests.     

[Catilina]

Eheh… I’m apparently late to the party and you’ve already made your choice but… I agree it’s more enjoyable with a male Hawke, even though my first/default Hawke is still a female with Anders Romance. Male Hawke is better if only because he doesn’t push away a male. When Hawke is female he’s overwhelmingly concerned about hurting her, but not a male… I don’t understand the reasoning behind this, but that makes the difference for me. And I suppose as a result of this, and the Karl thing, it feels like you get closer to Anders – that he allows you to get closer to him. This is especially true with friendmance – rivalmance with Anders I just don’t understand. I naturally agree with him too much to be his rival.

 

Ultimately though, since Anders’ romance is my favorite of DA2, any Hawke is a win.     

 

Sorry,  I also don't understand this: "does not push away a male"?

 

***

 

Rivalmance with him only physical attraction, not real love. Since for Anders so important the freedom of mages (and always will be), then if Hawke do not agree with him, I can not imagine between them a long-term, healthy, affectionate relationship. Anders would die. But I never tryed this version. (I think, rivalmance working with Fenris and Merrill, and I don't have experience with Isabela and Sebastian.)

 

***

 

And yes, Anders is pansexual, according to what he say.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Sorry,  I also don't understand this: "does not push away a male"?

 

You don't understand the reasoning or what I mean? Haha, sorryyyyy just want to clarify.

 

Rivalmance with him only physical attraction, not real love. Since for Anders so important the freedom of mages (and always will be), then if Hawke do not agree with him, I can not imagine between them a long-term, healthy, affectionate relationship. Anders would die. But I never tryed this version. (I think, rivalmance working with Fenris and Merrill, and I don't have experience with Isabela and Sebastian.)

 

 

Well, I meant I can't understand a rivalmance because it's unnatural for me.   I get along too well with Anders to be his rival.

 

I did friendmance with everyone (Well, I haven't done Sebastian) and I like that they're about "acceptance" rather than "trying to change them" -- which is what rivalmances are like, if I understand correctly?

[nightscrawl]

Honestly, I don't think we should get into labels overmuch, especially when there is no rigid consensus on what pansexual actually is. Some LGBT people even use it interchangeably with bisexual.

Best to avoid it, IMO. He was said to be bisexual by the devs, so it is not incorrect to refer to him as such.

 

You don't understand the reasoning or what I mean? Haha, sorryyyyy just want to clarify.
 
 
Well, I meant I can't understand a rivalmance because it's unnatural for me.   I get along too well with Anders to be his rival.
 
I did friendmance with everyone (Well, I haven't done Sebastian) and I like that they're about "acceptance" rather than "trying to change them" -- which is what rivalmances are like, if I understand correctly?

It depends on the LI. With Merrill, it's about trying to protect her from herself and getting her to see the error of her ways. I can't speak to the Isabela rivalmance. With Fenris it's about having a thing for someone but not knowing how to deal with it.

Both of the Anders paths have obsession, which is probably more obvious with the rival path. I wouldn't say, as Catilina does, that it's about physical attraction only, because I don't think it is. His mind is consumed by the idea of Hawke.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Honestly, I don't think we should get into labels overmuch, especially when there is no rigid consensus on what pansexual actually is. Some LGBT people even use it interchangeably with bisexual.

Best to avoid it, IMO. He was said to be bisexual by the devs, so it is not incorrect to refer to him as such.

 

It depends on the LI. With Merrill, it's about trying to protect her from herself and getting her to see the error of her ways. I can't speak to the Isabela rivalmance. With Fenris it's about having a thing for someone but not knowing how to deal with it.

Both of the Anders paths have obsession, which is probably more obvious with the rival path. I wouldn't say, as Catilina does, that it's about physical attraction only, because I don't think it is. His mind is consumed by the idea of Hawke.

 

Semantics, right? I don't like labels, honestly, but I feel like bisexual is a lesser truth. Technically all the romances in DA2 (erp, not Sebastian) are bisexual. It just feels like too much of a broad statement. From my experience pansexual is when gender is irrelevant -- it's all about the personality, not their form, which is what he says. He more or less negates the idea of gender identity--but that's a whole... thing. So again, semantics and the desire to classify everything. I hear you, and I contradict myself in the process. An eternal struggle. (And it doesn't much matter, I love him as whatever he is.  )

 

Hmm. I originally went with friendmance for Merrill but ended up regretting it and haven't yet replayed with rivalmance yet. I've seen a little of Isabela and it seems to be "you make me want to be a better person" whereas friendmance is "you like me for who I am." I'm not sure how I feel about the difference in those perspectives...   The idea of a Fenris rivalmance just sounds hilarious. I don't know why.

 

I've only seen the rivalmance with Anders but never played it, and as such I just found it disconcerting.   Although it has a scene I adore with him and his manifesto trying to change Hawke's mind...

[Lulupab]

I agree with rivalmance being disconnecting, to say the least.

 

How can you tell someone they are insane and there is no hope for them and still be in a romantic relation with them? This is why the friend/rival system is messed up.

[nightscrawl]

I agree with rivalmance being disconnecting, to say the least.
 
How can you tell someone they are insane and there is no hope for them and still be in a romantic relation with them? This is why the friend/rival system is messed up.

I don't think the concept was messed up -- in fact I like the idea quite a bit -- but the execution is lacking. The game can't differentiate between anti-mage or anti-anarchy, or pro-mage or anti-slavery (in the case of Fenris). If you are a rival, it is assumed that you are both of those things. It also cannot account for any nuance in your decision making.

I also don't think that a rival romance works well for a longer story, as DA2 was. I can see having a whirlwind, passionate romance during DAO or DAI because there is a LOT going on, crisis after crisis, and people grow close in conflict and take solace where they can find it. It does make sense to me that two people might have a physical attraction, even if they have philosophical disagreements, and go from there. But I don't think this works well during the time frame of DA2 because you really get to know your followers over those several years.

[Catilina]

I agree with rivalmance being disconnecting, to say the least.

 

How can you tell someone they are insane and there is no hope for them and still be in a romantic relation with them? This is why the friend/rival system is messed up.

That's why it's not work with Anders (as I imagine).

 

But still can work (in the long term) with Merril and Fenris, because Merrill realizes that the mirror was really evil, and Hawke always wanted for her benefit, and Fenris lose his angst (if you can't imagine the rivalmance with Fenris, is even harder to imagine a pro-mage friendship to romance with him).

 

Rivalry/friendship system are not the best, but I can imagine with some reservations (one of those reservations is Anders).

[Biotic Apostate]

I hate getting caught up in labels, but this caught my eye: Anders is pansexual not bisexual, as his “loving the whole person, not a body” line suggests.     

It could be interpreted like that, but as far as I'm aware, the official word from the writers is that DA2 LIs are bisexual. And I've used the same line to explain being gay, so it's not that definitive.

[workforme]

Well bisexual romance in DAO are basically the same one, so they made more different in DA2.

 

Like many tings in the game,it didn't get appreciate.

[nightscrawl]

It could be interpreted like that, but as far as I'm aware, the official word from the writers is that DA2 LIs are bisexual. And I've used the same line to explain being gay, so it's not that definitive.

But you also think dudes are hot, so...
 
I think labels are best used by individuals in describing themselves, or when talking about general topics like game romances. I'm not too keen on labeling other, specific persons for exactly that reason. I think this is especially important because straight, gay, etc, are also associated with cultures that some people may or may not consider themselves belonging to. I've actually seen some guys say, "I guess I'm a bad gay because <reason>," sometimes said facetiously and sometimes not, and whatever it is is usually some social or cultural thing.

 

Of course, this is complicated even more since they don't have labels in Thedas. Iron Bull isn't going to describe himself as bi or pansexual, and neither are Isabela or Anders.
 
I think it should be considered too that the dialogue where Anders says that line is to a male Hawke only specifically in relation to being with other men because that is the subject of the conversation. I can totally see how a gay player would have heard those lines and been blown away by hearing them in a video game, typically the purview of straight males, and take validity from that. It is also ONLY with party banter with Isabela that the male player even learns that Anders is bisexual.
 
I suppose that is a lot of words to say that I think the line is open to interpretation, which includes looking through the lens of meta information. If the male player who romances Anders didn't know that he was also romancable by female Hawkes, and also never heard the Isabela banter, he might very well think that the lines are a positive affirmation of homosexuality.

 

 

[edit]

I should add that it is also not a guarantee that every player will be familiar with Anders from DAA and his cheeky flirting with Velanna and other remarks. DA2 was the first Dragon Age experience for many players, just as the same is true for DAI.

[Catilina]

[...]

Both of the Anders paths have obsession, which is probably more obvious with the rival path. I wouldn't say, as Catilina does, that it's about physical attraction only, because I don't think it is. His mind is consumed by the idea of Hawke.

But Anders obsession is principle-based, and if Hawke don't agree with his principle, over time, Anders come to hate Hawke, I think. Anders' obsession with mage freedom will not disappear, Justice will not disappear ... The romance may work for a time, but not for a long time.  (Almost all the rivalry point receives from the support of the Circle-system. How to tolerate each other for years?)

 

***

 

Well, I saw a rivalmance video (never saw before, I relied only on my own opinion), perhaps not that incredible, as I thought before, if Hawke stay at mage side at the finish, in this case it might be a good end (in the short run), but I had not saw: Anders being less obessed in this way, but I still do not see long-term opportunities it unless Hawke does not reject the Circle-system. Okay, in that moment he did not want to kill innocent people, but his opinion at the Circle-system, changed? The latter would be pretty weird, after all, that he has always supported this. Why he changed his mind? What was the reason? Meredith's madness? Okay, maybe I can accept... But this is much more Anders "victory" than Hawke's.

 

It is imperative to know: Justice / Vengeance lives and is not going away. If the rivalry continues, Anders increasingly lose control over himself. As we know, he will not stop the fight for the mage's freedom. The rivalry is not a cure and does not make it any less obsessed  – in my opinion. I still think its not working in the long-term love-relation.

 

***

 

Okay, a "physical relationship" is perhaps a little roughly sounded, maybe not entirely, but probably based on based on physical attraction (they do not seem to soul mates in the rivalry romance).

[Catilina]

[...]

(You may right, but you probably have noticed that I attach too much importance to words and categories. This is perhaps occupational hazard or just simple obession on my part. Maybe both...  )

[Biotic Apostate]

But you also think dudes are hot, so...

Haha well yeah 

 

I was quite surprised to see that line in game, because it seemed to fit our world better than Thedas. Explaining (or proving) that a relationship with a person of the same sex can be far more meaningful than just the physical aspect is a thing many LGBT people had to do, and I really got that vibe from that dialogue. Especially since the quote goes on with "Why would you shy away from loving someone, just because they’re like you?", which really resonated with me.

I know that many people see that line more as "emotional attraction is more important for me than the physical one, gender doesn't matter" and thus confirming pansexuality, but as you've said, it's a male Hawke exclusive line, and it does influence the interpretation of it for some. And it's also easy to take this as a confirmation of demisexuality, because the labels themselves are vague at points.

 

Gay men shying away from the label gay, because they don't think they fit is a sad result of gay culture being at times very narrow and unwelcoming. But it's more complicated than just that. There's a documentary titled "Do I Sound Gay?" and someone said there, that his reaction to people being surprised that he's gay is "why does that make me feel good?"

 

Either way, neither the terms, nor their connotations exist in Thedas. I really hope they expand on that "Sexuality in Thedas" entry, because too many people see it as confirmation of disdain for same sex relationships. Because the games are enjoyed by real people it's hard to say how much of, for example, Dorian's scene with his father is for the benefit of the story, and how much is solely for the benefit of the player, who might not be familiar or comfortable with the concept.

[nightscrawl]

Either way, neither the terms, nor their connotations exist in Thedas. I really hope they expand on that "Sexuality in Thedas" entry, because too many people see it as confirmation of disdain for same sex relationships. Because the games are enjoyed by real people it's hard to say how much of, for example, Dorian's scene with his father is for the benefit of the story, and how much is solely for the benefit of the player, that might not be familiar or comfortable with the concept.

I think it's a combination. The way DG spoke about it really seemed like a lot of the concepts were developed together, so it wasn't only a matter of shoehorning a modern gay conversion therapy narrative into the DA setting. I don't think that he would deny that that is the analogy, but some people do like to make it seem as if that was the only purpose, which I disagree with. I thought it melded perfectly, especially when you consider Tevinter and its culture of mages, Halward's own (negative) views on blood magic, and his eventually resorting to its use.

 

This is also when the writing team started fleshing out his backstory. One thing we wrestled with at the time was why a man from a powerful family with everything to lose would be so set against corruption in his own country. At first we were talking about how he was going to be a closet idealist with this tragic past, but then the idea of him being gay was brought up.

“But, Dave,” someone said, “Tevinter doesn’t really have anything against gay people as long as you’re discrete.” And that’s when it clicked for me: he doesn’t want to be discrete, he doesn’t want to marry the girl, further the dynasty. We knew we were going to have some different sexualities in the party, so what if it was this character? What if his sexuality was the seed for his dissatisfaction and made for an interesting question to answer, and answering that led to the Dorian we have today.

 

 

 

I must admit that I'm not really sure how the Sexuality in Thedas entry could be expanded. When I saw it in the game, my very first thought that was this seemed like a direct response to all of the criticisms that have been leveled at the DA team since the DA2 time. It seemed very much a way of throwing evidence in the game itself, rather than having the developers tell people over and over again outside of the game -- on these forums and elsewhere -- insisting that Thedas is indeed more open and accepting of different sexualities.

 

Honestly, people will see what they want to see. It seems plain to me, particularly the bits about Tevinter; the words are right there: "among nobles," and it seems obvious that a great part of it is concerning that. If you're NOT noble, I rather doubt that anyone gives a damn.

 

For my part, I took a great part of that codex, particularly the Ferelden bits about discretion, as being about sexuality in a general sense, not just homosexuality specifically. Fereldens are a hard people and don't seem very openly passionate, so that stance makes sense to me. One Ferelden arl built a villa for his guy and his wife buried the lover in her husband's cloak when he died later on. That certainly says something. That codex talks about wanting to avoid "public scandal," but anyone who would deny that there wouldn't ALSO be a scandal if it were a woman instead of a man is being disingenuous. Perhaps it would be lesser, but it would be there just the same.

 

In the end, I think the best way would be to have more homosexual relationships, or homosexuals themselves, presented as foreground and background characters. They can tell us that Thedas is accepting all day long, and we can be presented with these codex entries, but until we see these people going about their lives unmolested it won't be wholly real.

 

They need to show, not just tell.

[Biotic Apostate]

I think it's a combination. The way DG spoke about it really seemed like a lot of the concepts were developed together, so it wasn't only a matter of shoehorning a modern gay conversion therapy narrative into the DA setting. I don't think that he would deny that that is the analogy, but some people do like to make it seem as if that was the only purpose, which I disagree with. I thought it melded perfectly, especially when you consider Tevinter and its culture of mages, Halward's own (negative) views on blood magic, and his eventually resorting to its use.

Oh no, I meant Dorian's "I prefer the company of men" and giving the option to ask about it. I just wonder, if Hawke's ("You—and Karl?" and "I just had…never considered…") and the Inquisitor's ("I'll need you to explain that") surprise is indicative of the attitudes In Thedas and how prevalent same-sex couples are, or is it a role playing extension of the player, who might, in the real world, be surprised by it.

 

I must admit that I'm not really sure how the Sexuality in Thedas entry could be expanded. When I saw it in the game, my very first thought that was this seemed like a direct response to all of the criticisms that have been leveled at the DA team since the DA2 time. It seemed very much a way of throwing evidence in the game itself, rather than having the developers tell people over and over again outside of the game -- on these forums and elsewhere -- insisting that Thedas is indeed more open and accepting of different sexualities.

 

Honestly, people will see what they want to see. It seems plain to me, particularly the bits about Tevinter; the words are right there: "among nobles," and it seems obvious that a great part of it is concerning that. If you're NOT noble, I rather doubt that anyone gives a damn.

 

For my part, I took a great part of that codex, particularly the Ferelden bits about discretion, as being about sexuality in a general sense, not just homosexuality specifically. Fereldens are a hard people and don't seem very openly passionate, so that stance makes sense to me. One Ferelden arl built a villa for his guy and his wife buried the lover in her husband's cloak when he died later on. That certainly says something. That codex talks about wanting to avoid "public scandal," but anyone who would deny that there wouldn't ALSO be a scandal if it were a woman instead of a man is being disingenuous. Perhaps it would be lesser, but it would be there just the same.

 

In the end, I think the best way would be to have more homosexual relationships, or homosexuals themselves, presented as foreground and background characters. They can tell us that Thedas is accepting all day long, and we can be presented with these codex entries, but until we see these people going about their lives unmolested it won't be wholly real.

 

They need to show, not just tell.

I've quoted the villa entry and explained the nobles part in various places here already (the scandal part also seems to apply to nobility, since common folk don't care about such matters). The point is that people here take the absence of other countries in that entry as proof that it's not welcome there (completely ignoring the beginning of that entry).

 

But yeah, some people will ultimately ignore all that. Having more examples of notable LGBT NPCs would be ideal, but the codex matters, because it can give us an understanding of places that we don't visit. And I didn't mean expanding purely in a 'add more lines' way. Zevran really build upon that entry, by describing how it is in Antiva - and that probably falls more under telling, since we cannot see it in Antiva for ourselves.

[nightscrawl]

Oh no, I meant Dorian's "I prefer the company of men" and giving the option to ask about it. I just wonder, if Hawke's ("You—and Karl?" and "I just had…never considered…") and the Inquisitor's ("I'll need you to explain that") surprise is indicative of the attitudes In Thedas and how prevalent same-sex couples are, or is it a role playing extension of the player, who might, in the real world, be surprised by it.

OH! Hm... I'm rather torn! I think it might be mostly for the player, yes, but not wholly in that way. I think it is good to provide that as a roleplay option. To be fair, the other option in the Dorian conversation without even picking that is to say, "So that's... a big concern in Tevinter, then?" The delivery is perfect (well, with the Brit VA, anyway); the Inquisitor sounds dumbfounded and incredulous.

 

In terms of RP options, I think it's on par with having an elf Inquisitor inquire about Mythal. Sure, they should know, but not every player will, so the option should be there. People don't have to take it. Its very presence doesn't mean that your elf is a moron that didn't pay attention in First School.

I never ask him to clarify myself, even in a romance play. By that time I will have already been flirting, so asking him to clarify just seems silly. It's rather unfortunate, since it is a gateway to other options that I might pick. Ah well. We've had a fair bit of discussion about the option in the Dorian thread, and different people do like to use different RP for picking that choice, from being a person who is just kinda generally dense, or even another gay (possibly inexperienced) person who wants to be clear he understands, and so on.
 

The point is that people here take the absence of other countries in that entry as proof that it's not welcome there (completely ignoring the beginning of that entry).

Ah I hadn't observed that. That's rather dumb, particularly considering that we have Isabela from Rivain and both Zevran and Josephine from Antiva to counter that.

Then again, I've also seen people argue that Blackwall and Vivienne are homophobic toward Dorian -- and I don't even know where that comes from -- and that mistaken assumption somehow legitimizes that as a thing.

 

 

To bring it back to Anders, I've always felt that the line was rather odd and that it shouldn't really be "a thing" in the conversation given what we've been told about sexuality in Thedas. I feel the same as the statement that he wouldn't bring Karl up to a female Hawke.

 

... or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)

 

 

Why is that? There is a suggestion there that a female Hawke would look on the m/m relationship as icky, or threatening, which I GREATLY dislike. I wanted to answer that with, "I don't know... in Thedas, the world you created?"

 

This isn't the real world. If homosexuality and bisexuality are more accepted, why should that even be a concern? Would he have mentioned it if Karl were Karla? He feels fine mentioning it to a male Hawke. What if the reverse were true? If Karl were Karla, would he have mentioned it to a male Hawke? Is the implication that women are jealous and insecure and men are not?

 

To be honest, I find the Anders romance to be the most gender explicit out of all of the romances, and the more I think about the female version, the more irritated with it I become, and the less I like it.

[Xilizhra]

That's why it's not work with Anders (as I imagine).

 

But still can work (in the long term) with Merril and Fenris, because Merrill realizes that the mirror was really evil, and Hawke always wanted for her benefit, and Fenris lose his angst (if you can't imagine the rivalmance with Fenris, is even harder to imagine a pro-mage friendship to romance with him).

 

Rivalry/friendship system are not the best, but I can imagine with some reservations (one of those reservations is Anders).

I disagree. The Merrill rivalmance is worthless irredeemable ****.

[Spirit Vanguard]

It could be interpreted like that, but as far as I'm aware, the official word from the writers is that DA2 LIs are bisexual. And I've used the same line to explain being gay, so it's not that definitive.

Yes. I was unaware as to how these terminology were being used. My mistake.

[Catilina]

I disagree. The Merrill rivalmance is worthless irredeemable ****.

(I do not see too bad: the corrupted Eluvian had destroyed, Merrill ready to move on, and Hawke's will there beside her. The source of conflict ceased, they can live in peace.

 

But maybe you're right – I never choice this way in the game: I have Hawke who was in rival with her, just not in romance, but after she broke the mirror, she calmed. Of this fact I thought, the romance also can work on the rivalry path and now I checked on video. I do not saw its would be too wrong.)

 

That is why I said that Anders case is different. There remains a source of conflict.

[Spirit Vanguard]

To be honest, I find the Anders romance to be the most gender explicit out of all of the romances, and the more I think about the female version, the more irritated with it I become, and the less I like it.

 

I'm beginning to feel the same myself.

On the one hand, I understand why Anders would use Karl as a gauge for a male Hawke. He even says after you flirt with him the first time (I think) that he's not used to meeting men who flirt with other men so openly. But at the same time women being with other women doesn't appear to be as stigmatized, or need reasoning. As much as I really do love what Anders says, I couldn't help feeling like "you don't need to justify/explain yourself about liking men." I had only encountered this line when I accidentally flirted with him more than I meant to as a male   -- which then made me want to romance him with a male Hawke.

The difference of the two romances is what bothers more, I think. Why does Anders never mention a fear of hurting Garrett like he does, rather repetitively, to Marian?

[Biotic Apostate]

@nightscrawl

I have to choose that option, when I finally get a new PC and replay the game, because that's perfect! Unfortunately I fell into the pitfall of 'ask ALL the questions,' so I missed that. In my playthrough the encounter also came after some flirting, so it really did not make sense there.

 

Role playing options are fine, but I feel they should make sense in that universe. For elves I think they should have added an option for the Inquisitor to say, what they know, so that the player can get that info and still be able to RP as a lore-knowing elf. But I have to admit, a daft IQ going "The company of men? Like drinking buddies, you mean?" is quite hilarious 

 

There hasn't been that many people arguing with the codex, and one of them is a notorious lore denier, but I have seen it. I have no idea, where the Vivienne and Blackwall arguments came from (Viv's disdainful response to that noble should be enough to see that the idea of her being homophobic is unsubstantiated).

 

I know David didn't mean anything malicious by that, but I did not like that view either. The way it's executed seems to imply bi men are less desirable for women to date, and with the info from WoT it seems even more baffling, since Karl was the only person before Hawke that Anders ever loved. As I said, that comment about Karl would have been appropriate in both versions. Feeling like you have to hide your former male lover is a bad way to start the relationship.

 

As almost everyone here said - it's quite obvious that romancing Anders with a male Hawke is, for most, a better option, when it comes to both story and emotional connection.

[Biotic Apostate]

The difference of the two romances is what bothers more, I think. Why does Anders never mention a fear of hurting Garrett like he does, rather repetitively, to Marian?

That's what I found to work in favour of a male romance. That constant 'oh no, I will hurt you' was a bit patronising and Anders seemed to place Garrett more in a position of an equal partner, who can decide on his own.