That's what I found to work in favour of a male romance. That constant 'oh no, I will hurt you' was a bit patronising and Anders seemed to place Garrett more in a position of an equal partner, who can decide on his own.
Yes, exactly. I don't want to take it as an insult to the female race, but after I saw how different Anders' romance is with a male, I was confounded. Still am. And a little insulted. 
Yes, exactly. I don't want to take it as an insult to the female race, but after I saw how different Anders' romance is with a male, I was confounded. Still am. And a little insulted.
(Catilina on 11 Jun 2016 - 07:27 AM, said: Sorry, I also don't understand this: "does not push away a male"?)
Ok, I got it. How I', slow minded! Sorry. (I did not know all the details from female Hawke's perspective.)
Yes. I was unaware as to how these terminology were being used. My mistake.
No problem. Even Patrick Weekes uses bisexual and pansexual, when talking about Iron Bull, a character he 100% confirmed to be pansexual, so it's all pretty vague. There are a few characters, where the writers have said that interpreting them as demi- or asexual is totally in line with what they have written, so there is some room for personal interpretation.
No problem. Even Patrick Weekes uses bisexual and pansexual, when talking about Iron Bull, a character he 100% confirmed to be pansexual, so it's all pretty vague. There are a few characters, where the writers have said that interpreting them as demi- or asexual is totally in line with what they have written, so there is some room for personal interpretation.
To quote Dagna: "Words are mush!"
@nightscrawl
I have to choose that option, when I finally get a new PC and replay the game, because that's perfect! Unfortunately I fell into the pitfall of 'ask ALL the questions,' so I missed that. In my playthrough the encounter also came after some flirting, so it really did not make sense there.
You know me, always ready to answer questions about the Dorian romance... 
I know David didn't mean anything malicious by that, but I did not like that view either. The way it's executed seems to imply bi men are less desirable for women to date, and with the info from WoT it seems even more baffling, since Karl was the only person before Hawke that Anders ever loved. As I said, that comment about Karl would have been appropriate in both versions. Feeling like you have to hide your former male lover is a bad way to start the relationship.
The problem is that I can understand DG's reasoning and he is right on that count. It's not that bi men are less desirable, but I think there are many straight women who would feel threatened or insecure (for reasons I don't want to get into in this thread), and I think there is probably a gender gap in the way heterosexual men view bi women and heterosexual women view bi men. However, I think that a chunk of that is due to the way that bisexuality is viewed in the culture, and in the way that heterosexual men and women view f/f and m/m sex respectively. (This is speaking in generalities, of course, and not all heterosexual men and women feel the same about these things.)
BUT to me, it is a view that seems to force the real-world perspective into the game and perpetuates those negative views of bisexuality. As we've discussed before, Bioware has a terrible track record when it comes to bisexuality; they just can't seem to do it in a decent way that acknowledges the person's bisexuality, without also making them seem like they are making an exception for the player, or that they are playersexual, or they are promiscuous, or whatever else.
They denied fem Hawke the chance to be accepting.
The problem is that I can understand DG's reasoning and he is right on that count. It's not that bi men are less desirable, but I think there are many straight women who would feel threatened or insecure (for reasons I don't want to get into in this thread), and I think there is probably a gender gap in the way heterosexual men view bi women and heterosexual women view bi men. However, I think that a chunk of that is due to the way that bisexuality is viewed in the culture, and in the way that heterosexual men and women view f/f and m/m sex respectively. (This is speaking in generalities, of course, and not all heterosexual men and women feel the same about these things.)
BUT to me, it is a view that seems to force the real-world perspective into the game and perpetuates those negative views of bisexuality. As we've discussed before, Bioware has a terrible track record when it comes to bisexuality; they just can't seem to do it in a decent way that acknowledges the person's bisexuality, without also making them seem like they are making an exception for the player, or that they are playersexual, or they are promiscuous, or whatever else.
To maybe add on to that? Part of the problem might also be women are generally portrayed as “sexual creatures,” over sexualized as a result, and therefore aren’t judged for their bedmates. Because that's just the "way they are." (I mean, the Desire demon…) Men, however, must fit into predetermined, restricted categories in order to be accepted as being “a certain way.” If that makes sense? There seems to be more confusion about men who have flexible sexuality (and thus need clarification as to “what” they are) than there is about women. This is again more possible "real world" interpretation bleeding into an RPG.
You know me, always ready to answer questions about the Dorian romance...
And I have to say, I'm quite impressed with how well you remember the details and always have links ready 
The problem is that I can understand DG's reasoning and he is right on that count. It's not that bi men are less desirable, but I think there are many straight women who would feel threatened or insecure (for reasons I don't want to get into in this thread), and I think there is probably a gender gap in the way heterosexual men view bi women and heterosexual women view bi men. However, I think that a chunk of that is due to the way that bisexuality is viewed in the culture, and in the way that heterosexual men and women view f/f and m/m sex respectively. (This is speaking in generalities, of course, and not all heterosexual men and women feel the same about these things.)
BUT to me, it is a view that seems to force the real-world perspective into the game and perpetuates those negative views of bisexuality. As we've discussed before, Bioware has a terrible track record when it comes to bisexuality; they just can't seem to do it in a decent way that acknowledges the person's bisexuality, without also making them seem like they are making an exception for the player, or that they are playersexual, or they are promiscuous, or whatever else.
They denied fem Hawke the chance to be accepting.
I mean, I get it too, but it still doesn't make me less uncomfortable about the way they have handled it. I'd never accuse BW of biphobia, but by hiding Anders' orientation they did make it look like female players, who prefer not to date bi men have priority over the story. It's done for the benefit of the player and breaks immersion a little. And it does take away the option to be accepting. It feels like expecting the worst from the players, and BW doesn't usually do that. But we'll see how they approach DA4. At least letting players assume a bi character is straight is not something they'd agree with anymore, at least not consciously.
To maybe add on to that? Part of the problem might also be women are generally portrayed as “sexual creatures,” over sexualized as a result, and therefore aren’t judged for their bedmates. Because that's just the "way they are." (I mean, the Desire demon…) Men, however, must fit into predetermined, restricted categories in order to be accepted as being “a certain way.” If that makes sense? There seems to be more confusion about men who have flexible sexuality (and thus need clarification as to “what” they are) than there is about women. This is again more possible "real world" interpretation bleeding into an RPG.
I mean, I get it too, but it still doesn't make me less uncomfortable about the way they have handled it. I'd never accuse BW of biphobia, but by hiding Anders' orientation they did make it look like female players, who prefer not to date bi men have priority over the story. It's done for the benefit of the player and breaks immersion a little. And it does take away the option to be accepting. It feels like expecting the worst from the players, and BW doesn't usually do that. But we'll see how they approach DA4. At least letting players assume a bi character is straight is not something they'd agree with anymore, at least not consciously.
I don't understand the "priority over the story" part.
I think the fact that Anders and Karl were lovers is an important part of that quest - it gives you a clearer understanding, why Anders would travel to Kirkwall and risk so much to free Karl. Sure, it could have been enough to have them be close friends, but it changes the dynamic, even if they weren't together for a long time. To hide his orientation they basically had to cut out a piece of the story.
^ Ah, gotcha. And you are right. I had never considered it that way.
Then again, I've also seen people argue that Blackwall and Vivienne are homophobic toward Dorian -- and I don't even know where that comes from -- and that mistaken assumption somehow legitimizes that as a thing.
Meh, I don't think it need be so complicated. I think more straight men just find the idea of bi women to be hot. I've actually seen some guys say, "All women are bisexual," like it's some sort of axiom. Of course, this is down to the fact that they think they will get in on some f/m/f action.
Perhaps. But I guess I don’t see how that would be more complicated, it’s just a different perspective on how sexuality is regarded based on gender.
That’s exactly what I meant. It’s just the idea that men need to explain themselves in general, but women don’t because it’s almost expected. How often are f/f relationships in DA given clarification like Anders, and even Zevran?
I don't want to derail the thread, but about people suggesting that Blackwall or Vivienne are homophobic... I have no idea about Viv, but I've heard people cite a banter between Blackwall and Dorian where they're bickering and the Inquisitor can interrupt them:
Inquisitor: You two are such men.
Blackwall: Well, I'm a man.
Sounds like he's going after his masculinity, and I can see how that could seem like an attack on his sexuality. Of course, just prior to that Blackwall called him a brat, so more likely it's an attack on his age/percieved maturity.
Well see, yeah context matters. Blackwall calling him a brat previously is directly related to that line.
Also, according to the DAwiki, it's an optional line from Sera, not the Inquisitor.
Blackwall: You have something to say, mage?
Dorian: If I had something to say, I'd say it.
Blackwall: That's it? I'd expect more from a man who can't stop talking about how clever he is.
Dorian: And I'd expect no less from a brutish thug.
Blackwall: Better that than a pompous brat.
Inquisitor: If we're going to fight at each other's side, we need to get along.
Dorian: Tell that to mister barely concealed envy issues!
Sera: You two are such men.
Blackwall: Well, I'm a man.
Dorian: Best pound your chest so nobody doubts.
Inquisitor: Enough, both of you.
Or
Inquisitor: (Laughs.) Such camaraderie.
Blackwall: (grumble) I apologize, Inquisitor.
Lol, geez those two. It must take like 10 banters before they start getting friendly.
I don't want to derail the thread, but about people suggesting that Blackwall or Vivienne are homophobic... I have no idea about Viv, but I've heard people cite a banter between Blackwall and Dorian where they're bickering and the Inquisitor can interrupt them:
Inquisitor: You two are such men.
Blackwall: Well, I'm a man.
Sounds like he's going after his masculinity, and I can see how that could seem like an attack on his sexuality. Of course, just prior to that Blackwall called him a brat, so more likely it's an attack on his age/percieved maturity.
Haha, this thread might already be a little derailed.
I've had that banter, more than once actually (I use this pair a lot ), and that Inq response is from a female, and it's of course one of three response choices. The same line from a male is something equally sarcastic like "Wow, what camaraderie." And then Blackwall will apologize.
Edit: ha, ok, said the same thing.
The thing about Blackwall that I have always thought is odd is that he can't be flirted with by a male Inquisitor?
That's what I found to work in favour of a male romance. That constant 'oh no, I will hurt you' was a bit patronising and Anders seemed to place Garrett more in a position of an equal partner, who can decide on his own.
Missing out on the talk about ex-boyfriends isn't a big deal. A nice bonus, but that's it.
You know what romance greatly favors a same sex relationship over a straight one? ISABELA'S.
Just look at this.
She is more emotionally involved in a romance with F!Hawke.
Well, eh, I don't care, romanced her as a guy anyhow. 
Missing out on the talk about ex-boyfriends isn't a big deal. A nice bonus, but that's it.
You know what romance greatly favors a same sex relationship over a straight one? ISABELA'S.
Just look at this.
...
She is more emotionally involved in a romance with F!Hawke.
"Never blame yourself …"
"Never blame yourself …"
Spoiler
Crap. Those aggressive responses... 
Arg. All this is just making me want to play again when I'm still trying to finish my damn Inquisitors.
Crap. Those aggressive responses...
Arg. All this is just making me want to play again when I'm still trying to finish my damn Inquisitors.
You don't like it? I felt this is the right answer to Hawke's temperament (not, he not agressive, mostly sarcastic, but on this point absolutly agree with Anders).
You don't like it? I felt this is the right answer to Hawke's temperament (not, he not agressive, mostly sarcastic, but on this point absolutly agree with Anders).
It's not that it's wrong or anything. I'm just not often able to pick those choices myself in more casual conversations. I save it for the enemy.
I think sometimes it's best: look at: Anders visibly relaxed; in fact, he glad of the support. Fenris also have moments, when it is the best answer (Not [only] in rivalry mode, because you gain + 5 friendship points, if you use red answer for example, when he asked for come with him to meet Varania.) The aggressiveness are negative, but sturdiness is positive, it gives strength, shift of lethargy and uncertainty, etc. Kindness (or how i can say better?) is not always solution.
I think sometimes it's best: look at: Anders visibly relaxed; in fact, he glad of the support. Fenris also have moments, when it is the best answer (Not [only] in rivalry mode, because you gain + 5 friendship points, if you use red answer for example, when he asked for come with him to meet Varania.) The aggressiveness are negative, but sturdiness is positive, it gives strength, shift of lethargy and uncertainty, etc. Kindness (or how i can say better?) is not always solution.
To elaborate on this, the icon itself is important. The fist is usually an aggressive or angry response, while the gavel is a more direct response. I try to pick gavel responses when I can if they are appropriate. Similarly, if you don't want to play a sarcastic Hawke, you can still occasionally pick the purple gem for charming and get a nice remark; some of the mask humorous responses are rather cringe worthy, so I avoid those. Also, the blue angel can be too nice and sweet, whereas the diplomatic olive branch is more moderate.
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