73 replies to this topic

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings folks.

 

In my opinion, Liara's romance across the series is very poorly written. Her romance across the three games and its DLC are just massive reaffirmation fests. Here is what I mean:-

 

ME1:- Romance Liara.

 

ME2 base game:- Reaffirm romantic relationship with Liara. ME2 LoTSB:- Reaffirm romantic relationship.

 

ME3:- Reaffirm romantic relationship.

 

The worst thing is that Liara's interactions in ME3 are completely identical whether you romance her or not.

 

By contrast, Tali and Garrus have romance arcs that are better written across the trilogy. I chose Tali and Garrus here because they are the only 2 non-Human romanceable followers that you as Shepard can have with you throughout the trilogy, like Liara.

 

ME1:- Tali & Garrus are just your friends and followers.

 

ME2:- Romance Tali or Garrus.

 

ME3:- Continue romantic relationship with Tali or Garrus from where you left off. Very little reaffirmation required.

 

The only thing Liara's romance does better than Tali's romance or Garrus's romance is the sex scenes.

 

Now if you don't romance either Tali or Liara or Garrus, this is what happens:-

 

Tali:- Moves on and either ends up with Garrus or is single or is dead.

 

Garrus:- Moves on and either ends up with Tali or is single or is dead.

 

Liara:- She stays in love with Shepard in a way that is reminiscent of someone who is clingy and obsessed with someone else.

 

I would like to be proven wrong on this, based on in-game evidence, not headcannons or fanfiction. Cheers.

[Sah291]

The worst thing is that Liara's interactions in ME3 are completely identical whether you romance her or not.

 

I noticed that and can't help but feel like Liara has some unrequited feelings for Shepard, whether she's being romanced or not. So I just went with it as part of my headcanon. 

 

But as far as all the reaffirmations... do you think it's because people complained about the ninjamancing so much? ME2 was really the point where they started making the romance options super clear so they couldn't be mistaken. Maybe they went a little too overboard with Liara. She was so easy to accidentally romance in ME1. 

[Dobbysaurus]

Liara is creepy.

[Ithurael]

I won't object too much on this. Although the Liara romance was probably my personal preference.

 

I did still find it a bit odd to re-activate or confirm the romance in ME3 after even playing LOTSB and staying faithful in ME2. And yeah, here whole character did seem a bit too "interested" in shepard.

 

I did see that the Garrus romance was very well liked, hell even the Bromance was fantastic.

[Barquiel]

You can simply start a romance with her in ME3 to avoid the "reaffirm" stuff if you don't like it, some of her scenes make more sense this way (especially the lock in scene...which certainly requires some headcanon if you romance her since ME1).

I prefer her romance arc over Tali and Garrus because Shep and Liara have experienced their ups and downs over the course of the trilogy, which makes the romance more meaningful imo. Of course I also prefer Liara as a character for a couple of reasons. The evolution of her character really makes the relationship evolve in a very unique way.

I will say that she seemed deeply in love with Shep no matter who she/he ended up with, but I don't see what's wrong or creepy about unrequited love. Because she doesn't date the next best squadmate if Shep isn't interested? After Liara expresses her interest in Shepard in ME1 she never brings up the topic again if you end the romance there. In ME3, it's Shepard who expresses his/her interest in Liara ("I want to be more than friends"). She also takes being dumped rather well...compared to certain other characters

[aoibhealfae]

Not really going to argue with OP since I'm not really a fan of the romance either. I would have love her if she is older and with the same personality she has in ME3 and have more steel in her bone instead of a regressed special snowflake. There's simply no way for me to find childlike naive innocence and her pathological obsession as sexually or romantically appealing.

 

But there are other worse written romances. Thane and Jacob was written off. Jack barely have enough scene together and Miranda was absent for most of ME3. Allers' entire existence and Kelly being a closet stripper-dancer. Traynor's awkward shower scene and there's a healthy hate over Cortez because he was mourning over his husband. Kaidan's romance for BroShep was a last minute addition shoved into FemShep's romance, which results in some lazy mesh switching (occasionally feminized BroShep and Kaidan) and cut out dialogues and scenes because it didn't fit with the male counterpart. Ashley openly admitted that she avoided you for six months because she have her issues and there's hardly any interactions with her on the Normandy. Samara's vanilla kiss and Morinth's death by sex. James being a potential romance with the most heavy flirting except it culminate to a sad lay in the DLC while Javik manage to weasel into the bed of a drunk FemShep even without your encouragement.

[congokong]

I disagree. Compared to other romances, I feel Liara's may be debatably the best. This is largely due to how good LotSB was. That scene in Shepard's cabin made me teary.

 

As for reaffirming the relationship, Tali and Garrus have the same thing, and it's completely understandable. In ME2, Shepard dies and comes back two years later. Liara and Shepard can't just pick up where they left off without any drama. If you don't like it, blame the writers for killing off Shepard in the first place. As for ME3, again, much happened. It's not as extreme as ME2, but Shepard was without contact with Liara for over 6 months. They understandably would discuss where they stood.

 

Your other complaint is that Liara's scenes are identical in ME3; regardless of romance. That is partially true. There are subtle differences in some scenes (ex: after Thessia), but not as many as I would have liked. Again, the same can be said for Tali and Garrus. Citadel and Leviathan offered some exclusive romance content at least.

[StarcloudSWG]

The constant 'reaffirming' stuff is due to two things. First, its due to Liara's nature. She honestly cannot believe that someone can be interested in her and remain interested in her. This is psych stuff due to her introverted nature and isolated upbringing.

 

Second, is all the whiny complaints from people who didn't pay attention in the first game and didn't want Liara as a romance option at all.

 

Third is all the complaints about suddenly 'finding themselves in a relationship' that spilled over from the Anders romance in Dragon Age 2, where one, just one, otherwise friendly and supportive dialog from Hawke to Anders suddenly and irrevocably triggered Anders into thinking Hawke wanted a relationship.

 

So instead of respecting player choice in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2: LotSB, the writers instead made Liara's romance the *last* to lock in during Mass Effect 3, literally allowing *every* other possible love interest the first chance to lock in a romance with Shepard before Liara.

 

As a result, yes, Liara's romance is poorly written and inconsistent across the three games. It is acceptable in Mass Effect, and it is well written *after* being affirmed in Mass Effect 2 LotSB, and it is well written *after* being locked in during the third game, but it is consistently reset because the writers felt the need to reset it for everyone because of those who do not like Liara.

[ZipZap2000]

Both right and wrong.

The differences are smaller.

I don't know how you do it. VS Its hard watching you get shot at out there. I don't know how you do it.

Also

LOTSB

Are you and Ferron together?

Why commander are you jealous? If you are you'd better do something about it. VS No, besides you made it clear I was as you humans say taken. VS No he's suffered alot and is a fragile emotional state etc etc.

But overall I agree. Excluding Citadel Dlc.

[obbie31]

To be honest, I have always disliked Liara. She might be the only character I truly dislike. I never had the desire to romance her and I hate how she is pushed constantly. People even say that this is the canon or the one Bioware wants you to choose? Yeah, no thanks. Her character arc in general doesn't make a lot of sense for me, and when I watched her romance on YT, I felt nothing really. Its honestly not well written like Tali, Garrus, or Kaiden. 

[Cz-99]

That's why I - like Zaeed - only romance my gun.

[Monica21]

To be honest, I have always disliked Liara. She might be the only character I truly dislike. I never had the desire to romance her and I hate how she is pushed constantly. People even say that this is the canon or the one Bioware wants you to choose? Yeah, no thanks. Her character arc in general doesn't make a lot of sense for me, and when I watched her romance on YT, I felt nothing really. Its honestly not well written like Tali, Garrus, or Kaiden.

I don't dislike Liara, but I just don't care one way or the other about her. She serves to further the plot in ME and ME3 and that's kind of it. Speaking as someone who's never romanced her, I think her entire trilogy arc makes no sense.

[KaiserShep]

The constant 'reaffirming' stuff is due to two things. First, its due to Liara's nature. She honestly cannot believe that someone can be interested in her and remain interested in her. This is psych stuff due to her introverted nature and isolated upbringing.

 

Second, is all the whiny complaints from people who didn't pay attention in the first game and didn't want Liara as a romance option at all.

 

Third is all the complaints about suddenly 'finding themselves in a relationship' that spilled over from the Anders romance in Dragon Age 2, where one, just one, otherwise friendly and supportive dialog from Hawke to Anders suddenly and irrevocably triggered Anders into thinking Hawke wanted a relationship.

 

So instead of respecting player choice in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2: LotSB, the writers instead made Liara's romance the *last* to lock in during Mass Effect 3, literally allowing *every* other possible love interest the first chance to lock in a romance with Shepard before Liara.

 

As a result, yes, Liara's romance is poorly written and inconsistent across the three games. It is acceptable in Mass Effect, and it is well written *after* being affirmed in Mass Effect 2 LotSB, and it is well written *after* being locked in during the third game, but it is consistently reset because the writers felt the need to reset it for everyone because of those who do not like Liara.

 

I doubt her nature or dislike from certain players had much to do with the way that worked. If we were able to lock in at the first affirmation, that basically blocks off the other characters before you get to know about them, unless BioWare took a page out of DA's book and added the ability to break up with the companion whenever you wished. 

[aoibhealfae]

The writers didn't 'reset' it for everyone who don't like Liara. Its a reset for people who didn't play the earlier games and start out Mass Effect 3 first and a do-over since Liara have the least romantic interactions in Mass Effect 1 compared to either Ashley or Kaidan. She is over a hundred years old and playing the naive officious virginal ingenue to perfection while being an utter creep. Invasion of privacy is her specialty. She have trophies of the things Shepard died in for display. No matter how many attempts the writers tried to make her remotely attractive (changing her features, giving her bigger boobs and darker sultry makeup), no matter how much ardent fans trying to convince everyone that she is the canon LI by majority, but its undeniable that her romance is the least definition of romantic especially if you confuse between love and obsession. 

 

DA2 was created years after Mass Effect 1. Anders hitting on you is no where near to Liara confessing that she cyberstalk you and how the game will choose her as your LI and override your romance progression with either Kaidan and Ashley if you don't trigger the threesome scene. 

[congokong]

The writers didn't 'reset' it for everyone who don't like Liara. Its a reset for people who didn't play the earlier games and start out Mass Effect 3 first and a do-over since Liara have the least romantic interactions in Mass Effect 1 compared to either Ashley or Kaidan. She is over a hundred years old and playing the naive officious virginal ingenue to perfection while being an utter creep. Invasion of privacy is her specialty. She have trophies of the things Shepard died in for display. No matter how many attempts the writers tried to make her remotely attractive (changing her features, giving her bigger boobs and darker sultry makeup), no matter how much ardent fans trying to convince everyone that she is the canon LI by majority, but its undeniable that her romance is the least definition of romantic especially if you confuse between love and obsession. 

 

DA2 was created years after Mass Effect 1. Anders hitting on you is no where near to Liara confessing that she cyberstalk you and how the game will choose her as your LI and override your romance progression with either Kaidan and Ashley if you don't trigger the threesome scene. 

LotSB wasn't romantic at all? That cabin scene was the most romantic in the trilogy IMO.

 

As for her "obsession," I have mixed feelings.

 

First, often people argue that you barely realize you're even in an romance with her throughout ME3 for someone so "obsessed" with Shepard.

 

Second, the whole trophy in her apartment thing can be interpreted in different ways. When people put a signed football from their favorite athlete in a display case, no one thinks anything of it. But if Liara puts the armor remnants of an until recently dead Shepard on display, she's obsessed? She makes no secret that she greatly appreciates and respects everything that Shepard does. Liara's one of the few to give anywhere near the thanks Shepard deserves actually. Putting that armor up might be done out of respect and as a way to remember Shepard.

 

Now, in defense of the obsession angle, there are some definite things that raise eyebrows. For example, if you have a one night stand with Jack, she somehow knows about it. How? She had no direct contact with the Normandy, and certainly shouldn't know about that. She also knew exactly where the specific people (Thane and Samara) were on Illium by memory? Coincidence? Doubtful. She had almost certainly been spying on Shepard beforehand and readied herself with the information.

 

As a near exclusive Liaramancer, the obsession hints never really bothered me. I can see how someone who doesn't romance her, and especially those who for some reason hate her, would not like it though.

[Shechinah]

Second, the whole trophy in her apartment thing can be interpreted in different ways. When people put a signed football from their favorite athlete in a display case, no one thinks anything of it. But if Liara puts the armor remnants of an until recently dead Shepard on display, she's obsessed? She makes no secret that she greatly appreciates and respects everything that Shepard does. Liara's one of the few to give anywhere near the thanks Shepard deserves actually. Putting that armor up might be done out of respect and as a way to remember Shepard.

 

There is a bit of a difference between putting a signed football of a favorite athlete in a display case and putting the bloody and torn shirt that said favorite athlete died horribly in, in a display case especially as a way of respecting and remembering them.  

 

This is part of why the armor on display rubs some people the wrong way. If it had been something else like a crew photo or even a piece of the Normandy then that would have been something else.

[Daemul]

I thought her LotSB romance was alright, but yeah, her ME1 and ME3 romance were garbage, her ME1 romance especially made me cringe. 

[aoibhealfae]

LotSB wasn't romantic at all? That cabin scene was the most romantic in the trilogy IMO.

 

As for her "obsession," I have mixed feelings.

 

First, often people argue that you barely realize you're even in an romance with her throughout ME3 for someone so "obsessed" with Shepard.

 

Second, the whole trophy in her apartment thing can be interpreted in different ways. When people put a signed football from their favorite athlete in a display case, no one thinks anything of it. But if Liara puts the armor remnants of an until recently dead Shepard on display, she's obsessed? She makes no secret that she greatly appreciates and respects everything that Shepard does. Liara's one of the few to give anywhere near the thanks Shepard deserves actually. Putting that armor up might be done out of respect and as a way to remember Shepard.

 

Now, in defense of the obsession angle, there are some definite things that raise eyebrows. For example, if you have a one night stand with Jack, she somehow knows about it. How? She had no direct contact with the Normandy, and certainly shouldn't know about that. She also knew exactly where the specific people (Thane and Samara) were on Illium by memory? Coincidence? Doubtful. She had almost certainly been spying on Shepard beforehand and readied herself with the information.

 

As a near exclusive Liaramancer, the obsession hints never really bothered me. I can see how someone who doesn't romance her, and especially those who for some reason hate her, would not like it though.

 

You mean the fully-clothed hugging-groping scene and the gasping black eye thing? Its a downgrade from ME1's kissing-groping and naked humping. Then again all romance in ME2 was as cringey as DAO's love scenes.

 

But the word "romance" is an odd thing to describe the relationship between Liara and Shepard and the best comparison I have was unfortunately, Twilight. An innocent naive girl from broken family who found herself enthralled by a mysterious sexy stranger who have the tendency to save her life in repeat. One of them was over a hundred years old youthful creature with the ability to read minds and like to stalk the other. In a very short time, while they barely knew each other and yet they became so devoted to each other to the extreme after a brief connection they had. They had various displays of affections that was should have been conventionally invasive and manipulative, but was very widely perceived as deeply romantic. One character was intended to be a self-insertion. And another was a sexual fantasy that came true. .. ..... .... .... .... *gasp* wait, I'm referring who and who again?

 

However, a well-written romance, should have a clear separation between love and infatuation. Liara display a lot of flagged behavior that was worrying and not many of us see repetitive invasion of privacy and displays of unsubtle emotional manipulation techniques as remotely flattering, especially with how the game was written to favor keeping her happy and Shepard being totally comfortable with all of it. Frankly, if all this is about "hating" than simply a character criticism, you would see a lot of one liner about how so and so is  "ugly" and "boring" and "completely hate them" and "I always let them die", and you wouldn't see people exploring a character in details that people tend to overlook; like how a broken armor in a display case is deeply unnerving to people who don't romance her or want that attention from her. And I have romanced Liara.

[introverted_assassin]

Never knew that this was a thing that people took issue with but I'm puposely disconnected from the fandom for a reason so...

I guess because I get the way her character progressed that I don't see it as poor. I just wish they didn't set it up like they did in ME3...I can only guess that they set it up that way because of the looming thematic of war and death and Liara pretty much wants one less thing to worry about, if she can help it. I mean as soon as you visit her spot in the Normandy she asks...there is no real in game justification other than the war so idk. It felt like her thirst was too strong but I honestly never cared...any Shepard I had romancing her was completely okay with that.

As for the unrequited love thing or the ninjamancing...she asks you...straight up to see what's good. there's nothing ninja about that like...she asks for clarification since she has no experience dealing with romantic matters. It isn't a cryptic question(like certain other creepy ass crew mates). I see nothing wrong with her candid way of doing so and once you tell her nah, that's the end of it...unlike other creepy crew members who still ask you again in the third game when you rejected them in the first one.

[congokong]

There is a bit of a difference between putting a signed football of a favorite athlete in a display case and putting the bloody and torn shirt that said favorite athlete died horribly in, in a display case especially as a way of respecting and remembering them.  
 
This is part of why the armor on display rubs some people the wrong way. If it had been something else like a crew photo or even a piece of the Normandy then that would have been something else.

Armor, not bloody shirt. Again, it can be done to honor them. Legion goes around wearing part of Shepard's armor, yet I never hear anyone complain.

[congokong]

You mean the fully-clothed hugging-groping scene and the gasping black eye thing? Its a downgrade from ME1's kissing-groping and naked humping. Then again all romance in ME2 was as cringey as DAO's love scenes.
 
But the word "romance" is an odd thing to describe the relationship between Liara and Shepard and the best comparison I have was unfortunately, Twilight. An innocent naive girl from broken family who found herself enthralled by a mysterious sexy stranger who have the tendency to save her life in repeat. One of them was over a hundred years old youthful creature with the ability to read minds and like to stalk the other. In a very short time, while they barely knew each other and yet they became so devoted to each other to the extreme after a brief connection they had. They had various displays of affections that was should have been conventionally invasive and manipulative, but was very widely perceived as deeply romantic. One character was intended to be a self-insertion. And another was a sexual fantasy that came true. .. ..... .... .... .... *gasp* wait, I'm referring who and who again?
 
However, a well-written romance, should have a clear separation between love and infatuation. Liara display a lot of flagged behavior that was worrying and not many of us see repetitive invasion of privacy and displays of unsubtle emotional manipulation techniques as remotely flattering, especially with how the game was written to favor keeping her happy and Shepard being totally comfortable with all of it. Frankly, if all this is about "hating" than simply a character criticism, you would see a lot of one liner about how so and so is  "ugly" and "boring" and "completely hate them" and "I always let them die", and you wouldn't see people exploring a character in details that people tend to overlook; like how a broken armor in a display case is deeply unnerving to people who don't romance her or want that attention from her. And I have romanced Liara.

In the end, it is all subjective. I really enjoy the Liara romance and, while I am no fan of Twilight, many people are. Apparently, that romantic angle is what many people want.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What they should've done is to make Liara pregnant from Shepard, so they can have a reason of what they fighting for. Fighting for their children would be a much stronger bond with Liara and Shepard.

[congokong]

I thought her LotSB romance was alright, but yeah, her ME1 and ME3 romance were garbage, her ME1 romance especially made me cringe.

Which ME3 romances do you think are good? None came across as great to me, and some were horrible. Ex: Miranda. Regarding ME1, I personally feel Ashley's is the worst; especially how she ninjamances you just by talking to her. Kaidan's actually had the most content, but it has been said many times before. He is a bland character. He has a lot of dialogue, yet he never felt "real" to me. He is like a Disney character; too clear-headed all the time and can't believably be angry. How is he in the military?

[Shechinah]

Armor, not bloody shirt. Again, it can be done to honor them. Legion goes around wearing part of Shepard's armor, yet I never hear anyone complain.

 

Point and comparison remains: it is the broken armor that Shepard suffocated horribly to death in as they began burning in the orbit of a planet. There are some who are not bothered by this and some who are.

 

I think the reason people are less on about Legion doing it, is because Legion is a machine composed artificial programs that do not know social conduct nor experience emotions amongst other things.

 

Additionally, some see Legion's usage of the armor as less unsettling because Legion used the armor to repair itself with and do not understand why it did so which goes back around to the above of Legion being a platform of artificial programs. This is less unsettling to some people than Liara's usage of the armor which was to put it on a private display in her apartment.
 

[Monica21]

Which ME3 romances do you think are good? None came across as great to me, and some were horrible. Ex: Miranda. Regarding ME1, I personally feel Ashley's is the worst; especially how she ninjamances you just by talking to her. Kaidan's actually had the most content, but it has been said many times before. He is a bland character. He has a lot of dialogue, yet he never felt "real" to me. He is like a Disney character; too clear-headed all the time and can't believably be angry. How is he in the military?

Miranda's ME3 romance isn't horrible; she's just not there. And it wasn't my male Shep's idea to keep her off the Normandy, but I can't think of a good reason for her to be on the Normandy. And I think Garrus had the most romance content, actually. Or at least, the most crew member interaction which in turn led to flirt lines if you were romancing him. I was really disappointed with the level of interaction I got from Kaidan in ME3, and even more so when I romanced Garrus and saw the difference.