73 réponses à ce sujet

[Livi14]

I think Liara pays off most. It spans the entire trilogy if you include the LotSB DLC, other than ME2 she has a lot of content with several great scenes, some conflicts and Shepard can voice private fears or doubts (the other romances I played didn't offer that). Her romance seems to be one that is really deep compared to the rest of the options as well. In my opinion it was decent in ME1, brilliant in LotSB and at least good in ME3.

I enjoyed Miranda's arc too, despite the wasted potential in ME3. Ashley was ok in ME1 - but it went downhill after that point, Garrus was not my cup of tea.

[Dantriges]

I think the Garrus romance really took off in ME3 with the Citadel DLC especially. That dance number alone was enough to make many chicks swoon (I'm a chick myself). As for dating a dinosaur, I get what you are saying and I think if faced with the prospect in real life, many of those who pursued a romance with Garrus would run the other way. A big problem in ME is there were not enough romance options for straight women hence the attraction to Space Chicken. 

 

It´s really weird that the guy with thorns and potentially endangering body chemistry is still the best option from the few ones you had. I think I would have gone for Kaidan in ME 3 but killed him off at Virmire in my female paythrough.

[Daemul]

 

I rank the romances I've played in the following order: 

Garrus

Kaidan 

Thane 

Liara

 

Ok, I know Liara's romance in everything other than LotSB was bad, but worse than Thane's? C'mon now, lets not get crazy guys. 

 

Which ME3 romances do you think are good? None came across as great to me, and some were horrible. Ex: Miranda. Regarding ME1, I personally feel Ashley's is the worst; especially how she ninjamances you just by talking to her. Kaidan's actually had the most content, but it has been said many times before. He is a bland character. He has a lot of dialogue, yet he never felt "real" to me. He is like a Disney character; too clear-headed all the time and can't believably be angry. How is he in the military? 

 

I think all the romances in the series are garbage, barely any of them function like real life relationships at all, Shepard and their LI get separated for a few months and then they ask for a relationship affirmation, acting as if their relationship was something casual, even Liara just a few months after talking about having babies ffs, it's stupid.

 

On worst ME1 romance lol no Liara's was ****, from the get go the girl is throwing herself at Shepard like a thirsty schholgirl, it's ridiculous. You have a 106 year old shy virgin, who has kept to herself for a lot of her life, who gets wet at the sight of the hero and desperately tries to spread her legs in order to give up her virtue to him. Bioware GTFO with that nonsense, no one but the losers are falling for that. 

 

Also what's the stuff I hear about ninjamancing in ME1? Everyone complains about Kaidan/Liara/Ashley ninjamancing them  but I've never seen it. Anytime any of them make any hints at being interested you can just nip it in the bud, I've never had any of them show up at the lockers during the Lockdown or Cabin during Ilos after cutting if off with them. 

[Monica21]

It´s really weird that the guy with thorns and potentially endangering body chemistry is still the best option from the few ones you had. I think I would have gone for Kaidan in ME 3 but killed him off at Virmire in my female paythrough.

 

Don't forget the chafing! The thing with Garrus's romance though is that it's super appealing mostly because I think he's the best written character in ME3. He and Liara are the ones who potentially are spending the most time with Shepard, but Garrus ends up being the confidant to either a romanced or non-romanced Shepard. He's the one you tell if you sabotage the genophage. He's the one you talk about "ruthless calculus" with. He's the one who tells you to get some sleep after one of the major missions. (Maybe Tuchanka?) If you're a FemShep and Kaidan is your LI, he's gone for the first third of the game. And then talks mostly about his family and his students when he's back on the Normandy. I can barely recall any conversation with Kaidan about how my Shepard is doing. I'm sure he did, but I just don't remember it. And I mean, the contrast in the Citadel DLC is just crazy. Kaidan makes steak, which is good, but Garrus goes through all this effort to "roleplay" that date and even learns how to tango. 

 

Yeah, I'm only going through a bit of crazy time in my own playthrough. It's totally not bleeding over into my posts.

[Exile Isan]

Ok, I know Liara's romance in everything other than LotSB was bad, but worse than Thane's? C'mon now, lets not get crazy guys. 

 

*shrug* I liked Thane's romance better than Liara's, even if it is almost nonexistent in ME3, but then so is Liara's. You don't have to agree with it, it is after all, just my opinion.

[aoibhealfae]

Honestly, I don't believe Garrus is the better romance since he like to treat his relationship with Shepard like a fling. As in, he never fully believe it would last in long term, he always joke about it but not seriously. He is someone who consistently rebel against any sign of settling down. He never say "I love you" until Extended Cut DLC. He also like to talk in circles which people read as being adorably awkward but it rub off on me as being insincere and pandering. While Liara make trophies from Shepard's stuff but for Garrus; Shepard is his trophy. In Citadel DLC, he's quite over the top when he kept showing off her as his girlfriend. I never felt that with his relationship with Tali though.

 

Then again, a lot of these inconsistencies was due to content written by differing writers. Sylvia Feketekuty had to fix what Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters had done to Liara and the romance arc. Garrus was mostly written by Mac Walters and yet John Dombrow was assigned to his ME3 content (which surprisingly have the least relevant content of them all.. especially if Garrus was killed in ME2).

[Monica21]

Honestly, I don't believe Garrus is the better romance since he like to treat his relationship with Shepard like a fling. As in, he never fully believe it would last in long term, he always joke about it but not seriously. He is someone who consistently rebel against any sign of settling down. He never say "I love you" until Extended Cut DLC. He also like to talk in circles which people read as being adorably awkward but it rub off on me as being insincere and pandering. While Liara make trophies from Shepard's stuff but for Garrus; Shepard is his trophy. In Citadel DLC, he's quite over the top when he kept showing off her as his girlfriend. I never felt that with his relationship with Tali though.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think there's a difference between saying you love someone and showing it. When Shepard talks to Kaidan after the Citadel Coup and he says, "someone you love" I always find it a little jarring. He didn't say anything like that in the hospital. Just "are we okay now?" and "Okay, I'm going to be a Spectre." And that's that. No messages between Shepard leaving that hospital and seeing Kaidan with guns drawn. On the other hand, Garrus is there talking to Shepard and asking how she's doing. I see a pretty stark contrast. Even my current Shepard, who's romancing Kaidan, wishes he he was written more like Garrus.

Unfortunately, I just find Kaidan to be a bit boring. I mean, sorry about the orchard? But I'm at war and I need to talk to someone who can talk to me about that. Whether I romance Garrus or not, he eventually turns out to be the one I spend the most time with. And actually, I only have one full playthrough out of 7 with a Garrus romance. The rest are Kaidan.

[Dantriges]

Don't forget the chafing! The thing with Garrus's romance though is that it's super appealing mostly because I think he's the best written character in ME3. He and Liara are the ones who potentially are spending the most time with Shepard, but Garrus ends up being the confidant to either a romanced or non-romanced Shepard.

 

Oh I like the romance, the dialogues with Garrus in general and that we had an awesome dance after everyone else got a good laugh out of Shep´s dancing style. But well, chafing, thorns and ups, we just sent each other into medbay because of some accidental contact.

[aoibhealfae]

I can see where you're coming from, but I think there's a difference between saying you love someone and showing it. When Shepard talks to Kaidan after the Citadel Coup and he says, "someone you love" I always find it a little jarring. He didn't say anything like that in the hospital. Just "are we okay now?" and "Okay, I'm going to be a Spectre." And that's that. No messages between Shepard leaving that hospital and seeing Kaidan with guns drawn. On the other hand, Garrus is there talking to Shepard and asking how she's doing. I see a pretty stark contrast. Even my current Shepard, who's romancing Kaidan, wishes he he was written more like Garrus.

Unfortunately, I just find Kaidan to be a bit boring. I mean, sorry about the orchard? But I'm at war and I need to talk to someone who can talk to me about that. Whether I romance Garrus or not, he eventually turns out to be the one I spend the most time with. And actually, I only have one full playthrough out of 7 with a Garrus romance. The rest are Kaidan.

I think you missed the conversation they had afterwards about Horizon where he said he wanted her back in his life and he still care for her in which caught her off-guard and he told her to think about it again after things settle down. I like this since he gave her space to think and isn't friendzoning like Liara did.

 

Considering they're the intended trilogy romance, FemShep and Kaidan's relationship was established very early in the game. They had a clear narrative path which is why I felt their romance was wholesome and layered rather than last minute patch ups and even if their ME3 romance were tweaked to accommodate Broshep (which is why Kaidan hardly refer to her as a woman and why some FS/K scenes were cut). However, the bulk of their romance was within the base game and exist throughout the duration of the main story so it wasn't constricted within several short romance scenes.  I am a romantic at heart and I love watching people being in love and sorting through the conflicts which is why their romance is appealing to me. And I like that you don't need the DLCs to appreciate their romance.

 

Garrus look cool, have a lovable southern drawl and he made you feel like he needed you, that he was grateful for you but everything you do require you to do something for him. He was always using you for his own benefit. Much of his characterization span around him complaining about everything is everyone's fault but not his. He whined about his father who didn't let him pursue to become a Spectre after his military term and instead he was given a comfortable job in the most posh place of the galaxy and he quit simply because of "rules and regulations" since he rather become a judge, jury and executioner. He blamed that Saleon's escape isn't his fault because the military didn't want to shoot a ship full of civilians and need Shepard's help to fix this. Saren being unreachable isn't his fault because Saren was a Spectre and yet there's an information broker right across the Presidium who have all the free information about Saren. He wanted to kill Sidonis because the merc groups tortured his best friend. It wasn't his fault that these merc leaders are also his victims, that they themselves was preyed by Garrus and his team. One of the Salarian wanted Garrus dead because he killed his brother. I never get why they deserved to be killed because Garrus decide they're bad guys when Garrus himself didn't have a clear explanation over his campaign on Omega. And none of it have an impact except for weakening Omega's defence so Cerberus could infiltrate it. Garrus have his own existential issues and he think it gave him every right to kill whoever he thinks he deserve. He's still a murderer who justify himself over what he did was right and was blinded by it. And then, he didn't tell anyone that his father is the primarch's best friend. He whined about the reapers attacking Palaven and Menae and yet did nothing for two years when Shepard died, even after their run-in with Sovereign. He only get his reaper taskforce after he whined to his father to talk to the primarch. And Garrus love having Shepard around to make him relevant because without Shepard, he is nothing. Take him out of ME3 and hardly anyone acknowledge him even existed. 

 

I understand why people love what Garrus and FemShep had especially in ME3. The relationship plays out like they're both visibly dating and Brandon Keener's modded voice is universally sexy. But I can't help feeling that he was with FemShep because his fanbase demands it and not because he wanted it. Garrus never grew to love Shepard on his own. He was fond of Shepard as his friend only but he never gravitate toward FemShep and instead chose Tali for himself. I know this make people angry and very possessive but I like that Garrus and Tali no longer play at being awkward, coy, uncertain with hesitance as they did with Shepard; at least, they're honest with each other, they flirted, they share dextro-chocolates, he apologize properly over what he said in ME1 and she accepted it happily and they kiss and they're both happy together. I have more fun spying on them than I do romancing them individually. Again, I'm not trying to belittle what Garrusmancers felt, but Garrus romance with Tali felt more genuine because they pursue each other without being aggressive about it. And they didn't felt the need to change anything about themselves to accommodate their human lovers.

[Dantriges]

He wanted to kill Sidonis because the merc groups tortured his best friend. It wasn't his fault that these merc leaders are also his victims, that they themselves was preyed by Garrus and his team. One of the Salarian wanted Garrus dead because he killed his brother. I never get why they deserved to be killed because Garrus decide they're bad guys when Garrus himself didn't have a clear explanation over his campaign on Omega.

 

It seems the ME universe is pretty liberal in handing out the death penalty for everything and based on some kind of blood feud system. His rampage on Omega doesn´t raise so many eyebrows because most of the rest of your crew in ME 2 is even more nonchalant about being maniacs who kill on a whim. And well, Shepard is quite comfortable with killing a whole lot of people on flimsy justifications and without considering other options.

[congokong]

Ok, I know Liara's romance in everything other than LotSB was bad, but worse than Thane's? C'mon now, lets not get crazy guys.



I think all the romances in the series are garbage, barely any of them function like real life relationships at all, Shepard and their LI get separated for a few months and then they ask for a relationship affirmation, acting as if their relationship was something casual, even Liara just a few months after talking about having babies ffs, it's stupid.

On worst ME1 romance lol no Liara's was ****, from the get go the girl is throwing herself at Shepard like a thirsty schholgirl, it's ridiculous. You have a 106 year old shy virgin, who has kept to herself for a lot of her life, who gets wet at the sight of the hero and desperately tries to spread her legs in order to give up her virtue to him. Bioware GTFO with that nonsense, no one but the losers are falling for that.

Also what's the stuff I hear about ninjamancing in ME1? Everyone complains about Kaidan/Liara/Ashley ninjamancing them but I've never seen it. Anytime any of them make any hints at being interested you can just nip it in the bud, I've never had any of them show up at the lockers during the Lockdown or Cabin during Ilos after cutting if off with them.

So Liaramancers are losers now? Nor is Liara as eager as you claim. She actually will say to take it slow if you push for sex.

It has already been explained how Ashley ninjamances. I have experienced it.

[congokong]

Don't forget the chafing! The thing with Garrus's romance though is that it's super appealing mostly because I think he's the best written character in ME3. He and Liara are the ones who potentially are spending the most time with Shepard, but Garrus ends up being the confidant to either a romanced or non-romanced Shepard. He's the one you tell if you sabotage the genophage. He's the one you talk about "ruthless calculus" with. He's the one who tells you to get some sleep after one of the major missions. (Maybe Tuchanka?) If you're a FemShep and Kaidan is your LI, he's gone for the first third of the game. And then talks mostly about his family and his students when he's back on the Normandy. I can barely recall any conversation with Kaidan about how my Shepard is doing. I'm sure he did, but I just don't remember it. And I mean, the contrast in the Citadel DLC is just crazy. Kaidan makes steak, which is good, but Garrus goes through all this effort to "roleplay" that date and even learns how to tango. 
 
Yeah, I'm only going through a bit of crazy time in my own playthrough. It's totally not bleeding over into my posts.

Well, Liara does ask the absurd question in the Normandy on what is bothering Shepard right after earth was invaded. It would be funny if you could return the favor right after Thessia when Liara is crying in bed. You can also share your feelings about missing a certain squadmate after Tuchanka.

[obbie31]

Personally, I think the two best romance options for the respective genders are Miranda/Tali and Kaiden/Thane.

 

Tali is fairly self explanatory. The banter, the dialogue, and the growth you see in Tali are all super rewarding. And its nice to see broshep tease her and flirt with her in the series. Personally, I enjoyed Miranda's a lot more than I thought I would. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her making sure her sister is safe with the war going on. I'm sure everyone would do that here. Personally, what endears me the most to Miranda is I think she is the only character that physically gets hurt when you reject her. Which clearly tells me she cared a lot about. Every other characters just brushes it off and says "oh yeah its cool its for the best." But not Miranda.

 

I think Miranda's biggest flaw is she doesn't appear enough in ME3. Not to mention I feel the romance feels "right." Two people on the opposite sides of the law who originally didn't even like each other come together is pretty poetic to me in some way. Kind of like Romeo and Juliet. And some of her dialogue in the party is the most natural and by far the best. My personal favorite is when you wake up the next morning and Shep goes "Damn you're beautiful." And Miranda says with a smile, "No.... just happy." 

 

Personally, I think Kaiden is by far the best romance for femshep. It feels like the one with the most chemistry and talking with Kaiden as LI is great. And Kaiden himself is extremely likable. Personally, I'm mad that Ash's romance is nowhere near as good as his. The Virmire decision would be hard if she had a good romance. But in ME3, its just awful. Once she's back on the Normandy, she interacts with no one, and she doesn't even have any real character building scenes. And I personally was quite unhappy after the Leviathan DLC when she didn't even seem concerned for my safety like Kaiden and Tali were. Her Citadel DLC scenes aren't too great either. I think she is the worst romance in the series next to Liara. 

[Barquiel]

Ok, I know Liara's romance in everything other than LotSB was bad, but worse than Thane's? C'mon now, lets not get crazy guys. 
 
I think all the romances in the series are garbage, barely any of them function like real life relationships at all, Shepard and their LI get separated for a few months and then they ask for a relationship affirmation, acting as if their relationship was something casual, even Liara just a few months after talking about having babies ffs, it's stupid.
 
On worst ME1 romance lol no Liara's was ****, from the get go the girl is throwing herself at Shepard like a thirsty schholgirl, it's ridiculous. You have a 106 year old shy virgin, who has kept to herself for a lot of her life, who gets wet at the sight of the hero and desperately tries to spread her legs in order to give up her virtue to him. Bioware GTFO with that nonsense, no one but the losers are falling for that.

Liara's romance (or Bioware romances in general) are not everyone's thing, and sure...you have to employ some headcanon to make sense of them. But that's not only insulting, it's downright wrong.

As for the relationship, Liara was the one that set the pace for the romance, and told an eager Shepard that 'Willing doesn't mean ready' as far as sex goes. She was the one that initated physical contact, and that happens only at the end of ME1 (a story that takes place over a span of weeks or even months), either at the locker scene or during the love scene. That's everything but "desperately tries to spread her legs in order to give up her virtue to him".

And Liara's an introvert that prefers her solitude, but she's not 'shy' as in bashful/timid. She is more than able to speak her mind and she can be assertive when necessary, even in ME1. Yes, she acts rather awkward around Shepard at the beginning (only during the first two conversations, really), but Liara's only real experience with humans at this point was possibly getting shot at by them in merc bands...and not everyone is good at flirting. But this does not make one meek, or really even shy.

It's an equal partnership and I love that about the romance. Some of the others seem to one-sided to me, where Shepard gives and gives and aids the LI by solving a quest but it just doesn't seem like the other LI is giving or adding anything to the emotional content of the romance. Most never asked Shepard how they were doing.

[Vanilka]

(great post)

 

(another great post)

 

To be honest, I feel this is a matter of taste. Very largely.

 

I prefer Kaidan's romance because of a lot aoibhealfae so well wrote. It really pulled my heartstrings throughout the trilogy because it was so complicated and yet sweet. And when Kaidan was there, he was there. It was him who invites you into that restaurant on the Citadel to make sure you two get a "sanity check". He mentions something about how he's glad he got you to sit down for a moment. Before and after the bed scene, he's the one pushing Shepard to put her work down and relax, reassuring her she's not alone in this fight and that she did everything she could, and he does so once again when they wake up together. I felt like Kaidan was somebody Shepard could lean on once they cleared up their misunderstandings. Sure, I was upset they took him away again for a significant part of the game, but in the end it didn't end up hurting my experience as much as I had thought it would, and I loved seeing them fix what they broke between ME2 and ME3. After the pretty much perfect start they had in ME1, it all added more conflict and drama (and I really like it that Kaidan has it in him to call Shepard out on her bullshit), making sure, making up, being a couple again, development. I liked the relaxed relationship portrayed in the Citadel DLC and the fact they don't gush about each other constantly, because that's what bothers me about Garrus, honestly.

 

That's where the personal tastes very much come in, I feel. Seeing the Citadel DLC dance scene upsets me because Shepard clearly refuses to dance, verbally and physically, and Garrus, disregarding her protests, keeps pulling her onto the dance floor. You know what I do to guys in real life when they do that to me? I hit them in self-defence because they're physically harassing me. She. Said. NO. I know it's supposed to be cute and funny, but it left me with such bad taste. I'm not into roleplaying like that or dancing, and Garrus gushing over Shep in the Citadel DLC constantly, and kissing her ass outside of it, seemed a little annoying. (And that's my problem and not his. See what I mean when I talk about taste?) The rest of ME3 was fine and I feel like Garrus' writing improved immensely. Suddenly, I understood why he should be Shepard's bro, after all the issues in ME1 and ME2 that aoibhealfae mentioned that didn't make me awfully fond of him before. Another problem I had was that Garrus didn't have all that much to say in the first two games, particularly about himself. I tend to be most interested in characters I get to know and that are personal with my PC (plus their personality), which is why Kaidan explaining his time at BAaT, making me understand what made him the man he was, and confiding in Shepard about quite a few things, piqued my interest. (And, to be honest, Ashley did, too, in ME1 for the same reason, but she doesn't like girls.) I appreciate that Kaidan's romance starts with careful and at times clumsy flirting that gets more shameless with time instead of "LET'S F*CK, GARRUS!" as seen in ME2. (Nothing wrong with friendship with benefits, but it's not my kind of romance and I don't like the writing or execution.) Back then, he's the one who says he wants to be there to help Shepard through the hard times should any occur. He's the one who gives her a heartfelt speech before Ilos. He's the one who "lo-- appreciates" her back then already...  

 

In the end, I think it's about what you like. I can very much relate to what aoibhealfae said, but I also see where Monica's coming from. Especially in ME3, I feel like Garrus got a lot more nice content and personality than he had before. Ultimately, I don't think we can say one romance is better than the other. We'd sooner start a fangirl war. 

[aoibhealfae]

Much of my main gruff about Garrus' content was largely on what little consequence he was to the main arcs and the limits of his "best friend" arc and "best friend is also my lover" arc. There's no hint of conflict since he like you no matter what and that fact that his role ended on Menae without any follow up in Tuchanka and/or Rannoch arc is quite anticlimactic. Honestly, I wouldn't mind romancing Garrus if he was written more like his alternate SWTOR's Aric Jorgan. They both romanced a soldier voiced by Jennifer Hale, they shared same issues about responsibility and authority and leadership failures and while they're both awkward in romance, but Aric was more transparent about his feelings, quick to temper and also jealousy while Garrus like to sweet talk around her, which is not an endearing trait for me. Even Aric didn't try to change himself for his lover beyond being warmer and less miserable and he even propose and marry according his Cathar tradition. I understand Garrus appeal was him being just Garrus and a turian, but I don't think he need to go all the way trying to prove to her and everyone that he's just as good as any human boyfriend. 

 

But yes, it is a matter of taste. All romance have their own qualities as they're all written by different people. Its really up to us to judge which is better for us individually. While Kaidan might be boring and unexciting but to him, Shepard is just this amazing beautiful woman who he wanted to be happily in love with and who made him feel sane especially when the reapers took everything from him. Their romance was about her being loved since the narrative focus was always on her as the LI which is one of the things that was different than other romances even Ash's. And he didn't treat Shepard like she's a romantic acquisition to be bragged about. 

 

It seems the ME universe is pretty liberal in handing out the death penalty for everything and based on some kind of blood feud system. His rampage on Omega doesn´t raise so many eyebrows because most of the rest of your crew in ME 2 is even more nonchalant about being maniacs who kill on a whim. And well, Shepard is quite comfortable with killing a whole lot of people on flimsy justifications and without considering other options.

 

Those Garrus killed were bottom feeders but they did control Omega. Eclipse, Blood Pack and Blue Suns reach span even within the Citadel and Terminus space but they lost their foothold on Omega, Cerberus simply use this opportunity to infiltrate. In Omega DLC, Aria commented how the Talons fill in the power vacuum that was created in ME2. But I find its odd that Garrus traveled all the way to Terminus as a personal pilgrimage and brag about cleaning up Omega and yet have nothing to say about the homeless Citadel children in the vents or the corruption within C-Sec. He like to say a lot of things about himself but how truthful was him. Was it justice or escapism or just satisfying boredom? 

[Wulfram]

I like Liara a lot, but her romance in ME3 is definitely flawed. There's a long period where the romance seems kind of forgotten - my first playthrough I was a little worried I'd accidentally switched to a Vega romance somehow - and then having yet another recommital scene is annoying. It also has some great moments and good writing, but I'd definitely consider Garrus' to be better.

And of course ME1 romance isn't perfect, though I'd consider its flaws more minor. Like, it'd probably sit better with me if Liara had just not had many relationships - and probably none recently, and none with a human, hence the awkwardness - but its not that big a deal.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

I think you missed the conversation they had afterwards about Horizon where he said he wanted her back in his life and he still care for her in which caught her off-guard and he told her to think about it again after things settle down. I like this since he gave her space to think and isn't friendzoning like Liara did.

 

Considering they're the intended trilogy romance, FemShep and Kaidan's relationship was established very early in the game. They had a clear narrative path which is why I felt their romance was wholesome and layered rather than last minute patch ups and even if their ME3 romance were tweaked to accommodate Broshep (which is why Kaidan hardly refer to her as a woman and why some FS/K scenes were cut). However, the bulk of their romance was within the base game and exist throughout the duration of the main story so it wasn't constricted within several short romance scenes.  I am a romantic at heart and I love watching people being in love and sorting through the conflicts which is why their romance is appealing to me. And I like that you don't need the DLCs to appreciate their romance.

 

Garrus look cool, have a lovable southern drawl and he made you feel like he needed you, that he was grateful for you but everything you do require you to do something for him. He was always using you for his own benefit. Much of his characterization span around him complaining about everything is everyone's fault but not his. He whined about his father who didn't let him pursue to become a Spectre after his military term and instead he was given a comfortable job in the most posh place of the galaxy and he quit simply because of "rules and regulations" since he rather become a judge, jury and executioner. He blamed that Saleon's escape isn't his fault because the military didn't want to shoot a ship full of civilians and need Shepard's help to fix this. Saren being unreachable isn't his fault because Saren was a Spectre and yet there's an information broker right across the Presidium who have all the free information about Saren. He wanted to kill Sidonis because the merc groups tortured his best friend. It wasn't his fault that these merc leaders are also his victims, that they themselves was preyed by Garrus and his team. One of the Salarian wanted Garrus dead because he killed his brother. I never get why they deserved to be killed because Garrus decide they're bad guys when Garrus himself didn't have a clear explanation over his campaign on Omega. And none of it have an impact except for weakening Omega's defence so Cerberus could infiltrate it. Garrus have his own existential issues and he think it gave him every right to kill whoever he thinks he deserve. He's still a murderer who justify himself over what he did was right and was blinded by it. And then, he didn't tell anyone that his father is the primarch's best friend. He whined about the reapers attacking Palaven and Menae and yet did nothing for two years when Shepard died, even after their run-in with Sovereign. He only get his reaper taskforce after he whined to his father to talk to the primarch. And Garrus love having Shepard around to make him relevant because without Shepard, he is nothing. Take him out of ME3 and hardly anyone acknowledge him even existed. 

 

I understand why people love what Garrus and FemShep had especially in ME3. The relationship plays out like they're both visibly dating and Brandon Keener's modded voice is universally sexy. But I can't help feeling that he was with FemShep because his fanbase demands it and not because he wanted it. Garrus never grew to love Shepard on his own. He was fond of Shepard as his friend only but he never gravitate toward FemShep and instead chose Tali for himself. I know this make people angry and very possessive but I like that Garrus and Tali no longer play at being awkward, coy, uncertain with hesitance as they did with Shepard; at least, they're honest with each other, they flirted, they share dextro-chocolates, he apologize properly over what he said in ME1 and she accepted it happily and they kiss and they're both happy together. I have more fun spying on them than I do romancing them individually. Again, I'm not trying to belittle what Garrusmancers felt, but Garrus romance with Tali felt more genuine because they pursue each other without being aggressive about it. And they didn't felt the need to change anything about themselves to accommodate their human lovers.

"Considering they're the intended trilogy romance, FemShep and Kaidan's relationship was established very early in the game. They had a clear narrative path which is why I felt their romance was wholesome and layered"

 

 

What relationship. Established early in game in what way. She did not know him before the mission (thus the conversation with Chakwas), optionally flirts with him mid game (same with Liara), and only spent two months with him as a superior with her direct subordinate prior to her death. Whether she screwed him during those two months hardly means he is her one and only throughout the trilogy. As I understand it, Shepard spent more time with her SR2 crew than that of the SR1.

 

I certainly see what you mean if you account for the beacon rescue on Eden Prime (femShep saves Kaidan vs. maleShep saves Ashley) and the non-import in ME2 having Kaidan alive for femShep vs. Ashley alive for maleShep, but in an rpg where there are many variables, there was nothing to suggest Kaidan was the intended romance for femShep. No my dear, that role goes to Liara. 

 

 

And I am resentful of the Liara-forcing. I felt it in the extreme when my Thanemancing femShep had Liara as her last flashback before she died, instead of her LI pre-extended cut.

 

 

No offense, but I have seen you both here in many threads and on reddit (is there any other websites I am missing  ) as well fanatically going on about how:

 

...1 Kaidan is the only one for femShep, not maleShep (bi Kaidan is a lie, he doesn't like men only women, BioWare made him playersexual in ME3, blah)!

 

...2 Garrus loves Tali more than femShep!

 

... 3 Thane loves his dead wife more than femShep!

 

...4 Liaramancers are pedos who want to impregnate young girls!

 

And so on...

 

*I am going to catch flak for this but on point 2 and 3 I agree with you that it is portrayed that way, and again I say this as a Thanemancer, but I am not going to rag on anyone else for loving the relationships.

 

Kinda saps the fun out of the game when someone is constantly trying to push their Kaidanmancing agenda on you. Even if I never romance anyone (i've done it but I hate the rapist Javik btw, felt punished for staying single)... Kaidan would never be my femShep's type. He does not fit her personality as far as my character is concerned. Same with Liara for that matter. Instead of reinforcing BioWare shoehorning of femShep into a limited LI role (and they did so especially for femShep), i'd be celebrating the many loves of femShep positively, and hope the new femPC doesn't get shoehorned into one or no romance again.

 

I kind of suspect the malePC is going to get a multitude of sexy human and alien babes who love him forevas, and the femPC is going to get:

 

  

 

^ He'll also comment on how ugly and squishy she is. You'll have to force him to love your character. He'll have a side relationship with crewmember "oh, blue angel face of Andromeda" asari: 

 

 

 

 

who he will actually fall in love with.

 

Ouch, the ME3 burns still hurt 

[Vanilka]

No offense, but I have seen you both here in many threads and on reddit (is there any other websites I am missing  ) as well fanatically going on about how:

 

 

I hope by saying "both" you're not counting me in because I've said exactly zero of those things, nor do I think that way.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

 

I hope by saying "both" you're not counting me in because I've said exactly zero of those things, nor do I think that way.

"both" "here in many threads and on reddit", I meant as in both those sites (bsn and reddit) of which I have seen said poster saying things. 

 

To clarify further, no I was not counting you. I would have directly quoted you as well if I was. Glad you do not think that way.   Particularly on point 4.

[Vanilka]

"both" "here in many threads and on reddit", I meant as in both those sites (bsn and reddit) of which I have seen said poster saying things. 

 

To clarify further, no I was not counting you. I would have directly quoted you as well if I was. Glad you do not think that way.   Particularly on point 4.

 

I am so sorry! I misunderstood entirely and thought it was addressed to me also, which is why I reacted the way I did because I really don't want to be associated with any of the things you mentioned since all of that stuff is really wrong and, yes, everybody should be able to play the way they want to, without other fans shoving the "right choices" down their throat - we have the options after all which is awesome - and choose LI (or none) based on their wavelength or character. As far as I know, BioWare, while they might provide more content for some of their love interests, have always been quite adamant that there is no canon as far as the player choices go. Anyway, once again my bad (I did think the "reddit" part came out of nowhere. I should've known.), I feel super embarrassed right now.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

I am so sorry! I misunderstood entirely and thought it was addressed to me also, which is why I reacted the way I did because I really don't want to be associated with any of the things you mentioned since all of that stuff is really wrong and, yes, everybody should be able to play the way they want to, without other fans shoving the "right choices" down their throat - we have the options after all which is awesome - and choose LI (or none) based on their wavelength or character. As far as I know, BioWare, while they might provide more content for some of their love interests, have always been quite adamant that there is no canon as far as the player choices go. Anyway, once again my bad (I did think the "reddit" part came out of nowhere. I should've known.), I feel super embarrassed right now.

I agree with you. And I have never seen you post any of those things I mentioned in my previous post.

 

I spend time going back and forth between bsn and reddit (BioWare seems more responsive on reddit), and the "[Liaramancers are like adults preying upon young girls to impregnate them thing]", which was posted on here and reddit and here and reddit and on and on, really makes me wonder how far some fans are willing to go to prove a point in order to validate the romance they are "crazy" about. 

[Vanilka]

I agree with you. And I have never seen you post any of those things.

 

I spend time going back and forth between bsn and reddit (BioWare seems more responsive on reddit), and the "[Liaramancers are like adults preying upon young girls to impregnate them thing]", which was posted on here and reddit and here and reddit and on and on, really makes me wonder how far some fans are willing to go to prove a point in order to validate the romance they are "crazy" about. 

 

Yeah, I realised soon after. 

 

I've never been on reddit, so I can't judge and fortunately I haven't seen much of that attitude. Which doesn't mean I haven't seen it at all. And this thread has one example in particular of how very nasty people can get about it, calling Liara a "thirsty schoolgirl", or whatever the poster said, I don't want to reread that.

 

The thing is that perfectly valid criticism can be made about Liara's writing. In comparison with the other love interests in ME1, she seems to have less dialogues on the Normandy which is a shame, especially dialogues concerning herself as a person. But the rest of the franchise seems to make up for it. Yeah, maybe a little too much at times, but still. Other points can be made how they truly did shape her as a love interest first and person second at times, but not always. On the other hand, she's as flawed as many other characters in the franchise are flawed, and none of those flaws makes her less valid as a romance choice. In the end, everybody's going to choose by what is closest to either their heart or the character they play and not whether it is strategic in the scope of the franchise or whether the character is the absolutely best written (which is a matter of opinion in many cases, especially as far as LIs go). Unless people and/or the writers do act gross and predatory about it; then we can make it a problem. I haven't seen much of that in the game, though. Perhaps a few clichés and tropes as far as love interests go, but that's it. Liara's definitely treated in a less creepy manner than, say, Miranda whose feelings and emotional state gets sometimes completely disregarded in favour of fanservice. (I think she's otherwise a fine character.)

 

To be honest, I feel like Liara is one of my Shepard's best and closest friends by ME3, and I like the dynamic between them. I haven't got the time and energy to do another playthrough and romance her just yet, but I'm looking forward to that and see what she's got. Out of all the love interests, she seems to be the second most interesting option after Kaidan to me simply because her personality works for me. Among other things, it is also that you see her risk everything for Shepard, regardless of whether it is for herself or the person in question or the galaxy or all of these reasons, and you see her being there for Shep in ME2 (if you have the LotSB in particular) and in ME3. (She's about THE ONLY person to ever ask whether Shepard's okay in ME2, as far as I remember.) She's there to comfort Shepard after waking up from the nightmares and talk them out of it. The capsule scene is genuinely heartwarming and one of my favourite moments. Not saying there's nothing to improve about the writing - her and other love interests, not saying she's perfect as a person, or that everybody must like her for the same reasons I do or like her at all, but acting as if Liara had no redeeming qualities at all, it's doing the character injustice, as well, because it's reducing her personality into a few negative traits of choice. Not to even mention that it's not like Kaidan wasn't written to tickle the female audience's fancies, too. (That it doesn't work for everyone or even most people is another matter entirely.)

[aoibhealfae]

"Considering they're the intended trilogy romance, FemShep and Kaidan's relationship was established very early in the game. They had a clear narrative path which is why I felt their romance was wholesome and layered"

 

 

What relationship. Established early in game in what way. She did not know him before the mission (thus the conversation with Chakwas), optionally flirts with him mid game (same with Liara), and only spent two months with him as a superior with her direct subordinate prior to her death. Whether she screwed him during those two months hardly means he is her one and only throughout the trilogy. As I understand it, Shepard spent more time with her SR2 crew than that of the SR1.

 

I certainly see what you mean if you account for the beacon rescue on Eden Prime (femShep saves Kaidan vs. maleShep saves Ashley) and the non-import in ME2 having Kaidan alive for femShep vs. Ashley alive for maleShep, but in an rpg where there are many variables, there was nothing to suggest Kaidan was the intended romance for femShep. No my dear, that role goes to Liara. 

 

 

And I am resentful of the Liara-forcing. I felt it in the extreme when my Thanemancing femShep had Liara as her last flashback before she died, instead of her LI pre-extended cut.

 

 

No offense, but I have seen you both here in many threads and on reddit (is there any other websites I am missing  ) as well fanatically going on about how:

 

...1 Kaidan is the only one for femShep, not maleShep (bi Kaidan is a lie, he doesn't like men only women, BioWare made him playersexual in ME3, blah)!

 

...2 Garrus loves Tali more than femShep!

 

... 3 Thane loves his dead wife more than femShep!

 

...4 Liaramancers are pedos who want to impregnate young girls!

 

And so on...

 

*I am going to catch flak for this but on point 2 and 3 I agree with you that it is portrayed that way, and again I say this as a Thanemancer, but I am not going to rag on anyone else for loving the relationships.

 

Kinda saps the fun out of the game when someone is constantly trying to push their Kaidanmancing agenda on you. Even if I never romance anyone (i've done it but I hate the rapist Javik btw, felt punished for staying single)... Kaidan would never be my femShep's type. He does not fit her personality as far as my character is concerned. Same with Liara for that matter. Instead of reinforcing BioWare shoehorning of femShep into a limited LI role (and they did so especially for femShep), i'd be celebrating the many loves of femShep positively, and hope the new femPC doesn't get shoehorned into one or no romance again.

 

I kind of suspect the malePC is going to get a multitude of sexy human and alien babes who love him forevas, and the femPC is going to get:

 

<snipe>

 

^ He'll also comment on how ugly and squishy she is. You'll have to force him to love your character. He'll have a side relationship with crewmember "oh, blue angel face of Andromeda" asari: 

<snipe>

 

 

who he will actually fall in love with.

 

Ouch, the ME3 burns still hurt 

 

lol, I haven't been on r/masseffect for weeks now so how on earth I suddenly suck out the fun of playing the game. Thank you for reading my internet rambling though but whatever I wrote about Kaidan hardly even make a dent over the deluge of Garrus the perfect perfect boyfriend and Liara the perfect perfect blue girlfriend. 

 

If you even care to notice, ME1's Kaidan was livelier than usual around FemShep than he does with BroShep (who always talk to him in utter boredom). He gave her a lot of hidden glances, talks semi-casually about how beautiful she was in conversations and in ambient dialogues (like at the dock). They have it in ME2 when he was ordered by her to leave her to die and in Horizon when she look heartbroken when he accused her for chosing Cerberus over him. ME3 kick off with their romance almost immediately. Conversations and arguments that seem meaningless unromanced but filled with a lot of subtle hints between the two lovers way before their designated romance scene. Even many characters in the trilogy acknowledge their relationship; Ashley, Joker, Kelly, The Illusive Man, Vega, Liara, Jacob all made direct reference of FemShep and Kaidan together, even more than what the game had for Liara, Garrus and Thane romances. So yes, I do think FemShep and Kaidan was given more thought and writing consideration than the rest of her available relationships. His close contender was actually Traynor because she was tailored for her as well but was limited by allocated scenes.

 

And Kaidan's bisexuality was never explored in the game and basically dumped into ME3 with less consideration on the consistency or portraying someone having sexual fluidity that befits bisexuality which is strange from a company that make Dragon Age. You can only count in one hand the lines Kaidan address BroShep as his lover because they've already did FemShep/Kaidan part before they even thought about making him an LI for BroShep. While this insertion satisfy the gaymance fanbase immensely but this is a halfhearted, poor and lazy attempt by Bioware. Even Mark Meer and Sbarge react uncomfortably about it in all their interviews together because they never thought about the possibility of their characters ever being in love. I am not against Kaidan being bi but there's no attempt at bridging his inconsistency especially his repetitive interest in Asari, instead his reasoning was being too picky that he didn't notice the handsome dude in front of him. 

 

Meanwhile, I am a fan of BroShep and Cortez romance, who are sadly unpopular around. Which is sad since Mark Meer did a lot of improvement on his acting with the wonderful Matthew Del *Black (in Spanish) that changed my perspective on BroShep about having a soul. Their love story was written for them and it shows. What Kaidan had with BroShep pales in comparison to how Cortez reach out to comfort BroShep and how BroShep loosened up around him and talk about his fears and regrets. This is what absent with BroShep's relationship with Kaidan.
 

I read Mass Effect Foundation and Thane is a recurring character in the series and the 12th volume span around his love story with his wife, Irikah. I have romanced Thane briefly and I realized he saw his wife in FemShep. He even describe her the same way he describe his late wife. Why do you think he quickly called her Siha? There's even a rejection line where FemShep told him that she won't replace his wife for him. He wanted to die so much even before he met with Shepard because he have his belief that he would meet his lost love across the sea. But the sad part about his ME3 romance wasn't about his death by Kai Leng, but how FemShep's love for him didn't make him want to stay. He use a gun in a close combat sword fight ffs.

 

And I already made a case on Garrus and Tali on earlier post about how they never fall in love with Shepard on their own but instead with each other. 

 

Liara's writing and characterization is fun to dissect especially she is the sacred virgin of the trilogy. Its quite a sacrilege to besmirch her actually that's nearly fun to troll fanboys about. While I enjoyed her character development which span around her trying to grow up and finding her maturity and independence. She grew on me with Redemption and Homeworld, also her brief cameo in Paragon Lost. She's actually very tolerable as renegade in LOTSB. However, the game didn't help her at all by constantly taking away whatever empowered her so that she always appear being absolutely dependent on Shepard, who became a dominant figure in her life in which her entire existence hinges upon, despite surviving a century just fine. But I grew to hate her trilogy romance because it reduced her being nothing but an overly attached girlfriend whose sexual appeal was her innocence and also the emphasis on her neediness. I particularly loathe how her reproductive capability to have babies with everyone is being emphasized even before you could speak to her on the personal level and she's not even in her Matron age where Asari matured physically to settle down and have family.

 

I prefer Liara as the new ME3 romance (better than either Ashley's and Kaidan's) because her characterization and the friendship was established. She is not a stranger and she still displays signs that she feels for Shepard, the "just friends" lines didn't feel off and you could play the sexual tension angle with no problem and she actually convey herself as a sensuous young woman which is a great separation from the Lolita crap. And the best part was no weird dialogues coming out of Shepard's mouth, urging that the girl is 'ready' for her 'special' time. Heck, I might have been less criticizing about Liara romance if I never romanced her at all in ME1 or if I haven't found out that Drew write all of this.. urghhh... still haven't forgiven him about Exile. Nope.