231 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

I was mulling this over again today.    The Dalish lore generally has some degree of truth in it.    Fen'Harel did lock their gods away and he was spitefully pleased to have done so, as they claim, but their lore missed out the bit about them killing Mythal.   The elves were once all magical and immortal but it was the actions of Fen'Harel in raising the Veil that deprived them of this, not contact with the humans.     So why did they think this was the case?    Clearly their was some vague racial memory of contact with the humans having a bad effect on the elves beyond the introduction of diseases, which would have been traumatic in itself.

 

Then I thought again about the theory that many of us now have that the elves were originally spirits that crossed over from the Fade into the material world and gradually became more "worldly".    Then it occurred to me that possibly that was the origin of the idea of the humans in some way "quickening" the elves.    When spirits come into contact with humans they tend to take on more and more of the emotions of the human they are studying.   In WoT2 Imshael is quoted as saying that "spirits are attracted to feelings" and "we don't put the bad feelings into your head........they're in there already".    Spirits are corrupted by mortals, not the other way around.  Obviously really old, powerful spirits, like the Nightmare demon, have been feeding off negative emotions for so long it has become their nature and cannot be changed.  

 

When Gisharel is talking about Arlathan he says how the humans seemed brash and violent compared with the elves.   I know you are going to say that the Evanuris seemed pretty brash and violent themselves but that was the result of a war with someone (probably the Titans) that was part of the material world.    May be it was the material world that had an adverse effect on them (plus the Void in Andruil's case at least).    Then later more simple elves/spirits came into contact with humans and started absorbing their emotions and behaviour, modelling themselves on them, which became the origin of the tale about the quickening.    Even before the Veil was raised the elves were becoming more material and alienated from their true selves by contact with the world and in particular the humans, then Solas raised the Veil and they were stuck that way with no possibility of returning to the Fade and reconnecting with their spirit self.    Hence the lore that believes contact with humans was to blame.   It is possible that this would have been the case even if he hadn't raised the Veil but with it there it was inevitable.   The story says that initially they withdrew from contact with the humans to try and stop the rot and this seemed to work so long as they could return to the Fade, but when the Veil was raised they were trapped in the material world and even if the Veil itself didn't render them mortal, continued interaction with the material world did.

[PsychoBlonde]

On what basis do you claim that "war with someone" CAUSED the ancient elves to BECOME brash and violent?

[ModernAcademic]

I was mulling this over again today.    The Dalish lore generally has some degree of truth in it.    Fen'Harel did lock their gods away and he was spitefully pleased to have done so, as they claim, but their lore missed out the bit about them killing Mythal.   The elves were once all magical and immortal but it was the actions of Fen'Harel in raising the Veil that deprived them of this, not contact with the humans.     So why did they think this was the case?    Clearly their was some vague racial memory of contact with the humans having a bad effect on the elves beyond the introduction of diseases, which would have been traumatic in itself.

 

Then I thought again about the theory that many of us now have that the elves were originally spirits that crossed over from the Fade into the material world and gradually became more "worldly".    Then it occurred to me that possibly that was the origin of the idea of the humans in some way "quickening" the elves.    When spirits come into contact with humans they tend to take on more and more of the emotions of the human they are studying.   In WoT2 Imshael is quoted as saying that "spirits are attracted to feelings" and "we don't put the bad feelings into your head........they're in there already".    Spirits are corrupted by mortals, not the other way around.  Obviously really old, powerful spirits, like the Nightmare demon, have been feeding off negative emotions for so long it has become their nature and cannot be changed.  

 

Actually, the trilogy has shown tons of evidence that it's a two-way thing. Spirits also corrupt mortals. Remember the whole demons and their infernal whispering in the ears of mages? A good mage can inadvertedly "sign a contract" with a demon and be bound to him forever. 

 

Also, this notion that the material corrupts the spirit stems from platonic philosophies such as the world of ideas being perfect and the material world being naturally flawed, for ideas become distorted when they gain form and shape. To Plato, reality is merely a distorted mirror of the perfect world of ideas.

 

Plato's philosophy obviously influenced the formation of some religions such as Christianity, which considers God to be the essence of purity and anything related to the material associated with the Devil. There's an entire discussion as to whether there's some inherent evil to the material or if that's just one possible perception of humanity's dualistic material-spiritual existence.

 

Humans are in conflict with ideal aspirations (that elevate him to God) and their physical, material wants and needs (the body, the source of sins like gluttony and luxury, ruled by the Devil). Christianity translates this etenal dichotomy in the shape of God vs the Devil and gives them moral attributes such as good vs evil. Thus we come to associate the spirit with purity and the material with impurity.

 

IMO, the fundamentals of Plato's philosophy are very wrong. For we live in a material world and the spiritual realm is only something we create in our minds. Our feelings are a translation of how we experience reality. They cannot exist unless we have a real, material experience first. Which is why it makes no sense to conceive ideas as being pure. First because they don't precede the material existence (since they come to life AFTER we learn about reality) and second, because something pure can't be born from something considered impure.

 

 

But DA clearly follows the traditional century-old belief that Spirit = Immortal and Pure while Reality = Transient and Impure. Humans are condemned to be these cursed creatures, born with an inherent evil nature. For a game full of different lores, cultures and mythologies, it's certainly VERY CLOSE to the Christian/Jewish notion that the human being is a filthy creature that needs to be corrected (even punished) by a perfect God living in an ideal realm.

 

It's an idea that bothers me deeply.

[PsychoBlonde]

ModernAcademic, your post brought a tear to my eye.  Good job.  

[TK514]

It would not be unusual for a slave race to develop 'history' that blamed their oppressors for all their ills.  No 'racial memory' required.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I believe that it was the Evanuris who brought the downfall of elves ever since they hunger for power by oppresing their own people and kill anyone in their way and Solas made the best out of the bad situation by luring them into The Fade and created the Veil to save his own people but it backfired on the elves.

[DuskWanderer]

I find it strange that you believe Imshael is not capable of deceit. As for the rest, well, since the Dalish story is all a lie, I find the reason to be inconsequental. The elves are bitter in their loss, and it is far quicker to blame someone else than the self. 

[thats1evildude]

No doubt the elven slaves brutally oppressed by Tevinter would have been quick to blame their masters for the downfall of their civilization. Look at it from their perspective:

 

1) Everything was great, or so our grandparents told us.

2) Humans showed up.

3) Everything goes to s**t.

4) Correlation means causation.

[Seraphim24]

Actually, the trilogy has shown tons of evidence that it's a two-way thing. Spirits also corrupt mortals. Remember the whole demons and their infernal whispering in the ears of mages? A good mage can inadvertedly "sign a contract" with a demon and be bound to him forever. 

 

Also, this notion that the material corrupts the spirit stems from platonic philosophies such as the world of ideas being perfect and the material world being naturally flawed, for ideas become distorted when they gain form and shape. To Plato, reality is merely a distorted mirror of the perfect world of ideas.

 

Plato's philosophy obviously influenced the formation of some religions such as Christianity, which considers God to be the essence of purity and anything related to the material associated with the Devil. There's an entire discussion as to whether there's some inherent evil to the material or if that's just one possible perception of humanity's dualistic material-spiritual existence.

 

Humans are in conflict with ideal aspirations (that elevate him to God) and their physical, material wants and needs (the body, the source of sins like gluttony and luxury, ruled by the Devil). Christianity translates this etenal dichotomy in the shape of God vs the Devil and gives them moral attributes such as good vs evil. Thus we come to associate the spirit with purity and the material with impurity.

 

IMO, the fundamentals of Plato's philosophy are very wrong. For we live in a material world and the spiritual realm is only something we create in our minds. Our feelings are a translation of how we experience reality. They cannot exist unless we have a real, material experience first. Which is why it makes no sense to conceive ideas as being pure. First because they don't precede the material existence (since they come to life AFTER we learn about reality) and second, because something pure can't be born from something considered impure.

 

 

But DA clearly follows the traditional century-old belief that Spirit = Immortal and Pure while Reality = Transient and Impure. Humans are condemned to be these cursed creatures, born with an inherent evil nature. For a game full of different lores, cultures and mythologies, it's certainly VERY CLOSE to the Christian/Jewish notion that the human being is a filthy creature that needs to be corrected (even punished) by a perfect God living in an ideal realm.

 

It's an idea that bothers me deeply.

 

And yet for some reason you aren't willing to overturn the assumption of materialism as impurity? 

[Almostfaceman]

 When spirits come into contact with humans they tend to take on more and more of the emotions of the human they are studying.   Even before the Veil was raised the elves were becoming more material and alienated from their true selves by contact with the world and in particular the humans, 

 

I think the Veil screwed up the relationship between mortals and spirits. Solas says so. There's no evidence I've seen that indicates it's a mortal thing. I also haven't seen any evidence that elves were becoming more material and alienated from their true selves before the raising of the Veil. 

 

Solas: Spirits wish to join the living, and a demon is that wish gone wrong.

Inquisitor: Is there a way to coexist? To live with them, if not in peace, at least without such active confrontation? 

Solas: Not in the world we know today. The Veil creates a barrier that makes true understanding most unlikely. 

 

 

According to Solas, he was the reason for the Elves becoming more material and alienated from their true selves... because he raised the Veil to free them from the Evanuris. 

 

Inquisitor: How did creating the Veil destroy the world? 

Solas: You saw the remains of Vir Dirthara. The library was intrinsically tied to the Fade, and the Veil destroyed it. There were countless other marvels, all dependent on the presence of the Fade, all destroyed. Your legends are half-right. We were immortal. It was not the arrival of humans that caused us to being aging. It was me. The Veil took everything from the Elves, even themselves. 

 

[Aren]

Actually, the trilogy has shown tons of evidence that it's a two-way thing. Spirits also corrupt mortals. Remember the whole demons and their infernal whispering in the ears of mages? A good mage can inadvertedly "sign a contract" with a demon and be bound to him forever. 

Spirits that corrupt mortals  were previously corrupted by mortals  a demon is the twisted state of a spirit not it's natural one.

 

 

Also, this notion that the material corrupts the spirit stems from platonic philosophies such as the world of ideas being perfect and the material world being naturally flawed, for ideas become distorted when they gain form and shape. To Plato, reality is merely a distorted mirror of the perfect world of ideas.

 

The fade and the Spirits who inhabit it are not the Hyperuranium and do not represent the metaphysical of Thedas they are a part of it's reality taken away from the veil.

Is the word "spirit" which is in itself misleading since you equate it with the IRL meaning.

 

 

IMO, the fundamentals of Plato's philosophy are very wrong. For we live in a material world and the spiritual realm is only something we create in our minds. Our feelings are a translation of how we experience reality. They cannot exist unless we have a real, material experience first. Which is why it makes no sense to conceive ideas as being pure. First because they don't precede the material existence (since they come to life AFTER we learn about reality) and second, because something pure can't be born from something considered impure.

 

 

A debate about Platonism is hardly fitting for the fade since it concern more the meaning of knowledge and it's   limits in grasping the ultimate truths of the fabric of reality the so called primordial ideas of the Hyperuranium rather than parallel dimensions fractured  from the world.

 

 

But DA clearly follows the traditional century-old belief that Spirit = Immortal and Pure while Reality = Transient and Impure. Humans are condemned to be these cursed creatures, born with an inherent evil nature. For a game full of different lores, cultures and mythologies, it's certainly VERY CLOSE to the Christian/Jewish notion that the human being is a filthy creature that needs to be corrected (even punished) by a perfect God living in an ideal realm.

 

It's an idea that bothers me deeply.

These are mostly  polarized bias towards several arguments that do not pertains the lore of DA.

[Aren]

@Gervaise

I understood what it was your observation a dubious related to the elves themselves.

Did they become more and more materialistic over time and got away from their spiritual self way before Solas rised up the veil?

I think they become more detached from the fade the moment they decided to take physical bodies to stay in the world.

[LightningPoodle]

Elves need to be wiped from the planet. I would tear them limb from limb and burn the remains in holy fire. I would rend the lands of Thedas with their blood! Slaughter them! Crush them! Leave no Elven man, woman or child alive! Burn them all!

[Donk]

Elves need to be wiped from the planet. I would tear them limb from limb and burn the remains in holy fire. I would rend the lands of Thedas with their blood! Slaughter them! Crush them! Leave no Elven man, woman or child alive! Burn them all!

Puhuhuhuhuhuhu!

[LightningPoodle]

Puhuhuhuhuhuhu!

 

[Donk]

Aww that looks like my puppy

[Patricia08]

Elves need to be wiped from the planet. I would tear them limb from limb and burn the remains in holy fire. I would rend the lands of Thedas with their blood! Slaughter them! Crush them! Leave no Elven man, woman or child alive! Burn them all!

 

I wish i could give you an "unlike this" instead of a "like" this. 

[German Soldier]

I wish i could give you an "unlike this" instead of a "like" this. 

It's a form of "irony" that i don't particularly like.

 

[LightningPoodle]

I wish i could give you an "unlike this" instead of a "like" this. 

 

[not a care in the world]

 

 

[Macha'Anu]

 But DA clearly follows the traditional century-old belief that Spirit = Immortal and Pure while Reality = Transient and Impure. Humans are condemned to be these cursed creatures, born with an inherent evil nature. For a game full of different lores, cultures and mythologies, it's certainly VERY CLOSE to the Christian/Jewish notion that the human being is a filthy creature that needs to be corrected (even punished) by a perfect God living in an ideal realm.
 
It's an idea that bothers me deeply.

So I see what you are saying however. I'm old world pagan (not to be confused with wiccan) and even I think humans today are out of touch and disgusting to one another based on petty things such as how they believe, vote, etc etc. And I DO think it needs corrected. Just wanted to put that out there. Bioware clearly based it on real world actual reality. Nothing wrong with that.

[Dai Grepher]

In conversation with Solas in Skyhold, he talks about elven immortality. He says that their longevity was not the result of magic, it was part of being elven. He said something else along the lines of magic was the result of their being, not the cause of it.

If someone could get an exact quote, it would probably help this discussion.

Anyway, I don't think the propaganda against humans was derived from any kind of idea that elves come from spirits. I doubt the elves who first formed the theory about their shortened lifespans knew anything about the spirits or how they might be connected to the elven race. More likely, the elves noticed that they did not live as long as their ancestors are described to have lived, and so they tried to find a reason why. They looked to the humans, who had short lives as well, and thus jumped to the conclusion that contact with the humans caused them to pick up their quick lifespans. This also could have originated from racial prejudice against humans. A reason for elves to hate them.

[Aren]

In conversation with Solas in Skyhold, he talks about elven immortality. He says that their longevity was not the result of magic, it was part of being elven. He said something else along the lines of magic was the result of their being, not the cause of it.

If someone could get an exact quote, it would probably help this discussion.

Anyway, I don't think the propaganda against humans was derived from any kind of idea that elves come from spirits. I doubt the elves who first formed the theory about their shortened lifespans knew anything about the spirits or how they might be connected to the elven race. More likely, the elves noticed that they did not live as long as their ancestors are described to have lived, and so they tried to find a reason why. They looked to the humans, who had short lives as well, and thus jumped to the conclusion that contact with the humans caused them to pick up their quick lifespans. This also could have originated from racial prejudice against humans. A reason for elves to hate them.

Question of the year

why humans have a short lifespan?

Did they had longevity without the veil?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

In conversation with Solas in Skyhold, he talks about elven immortality. He says that their longevity was not the result of magic, it was part of being elven. He said something else along the lines of magic was the result of their being, not the cause of it.If someone could get an exact quote, it would probably help this discussion.Anyway, I don't think the propaganda against humans was derived from any kind of idea that elves come from spirits. I doubt the elves who first formed the theory about their shortened lifespans knew anything about the spirits or how they might be connected to the elven race. More likely, the elves noticed that they did not live as long as their ancestors are described to have lived, and so they tried to find a reason why. They looked to the humans, who had short lives as well, and thus jumped to the conclusion that contact with the humans caused them to pick up their quick lifespans. This also could have originated from racial prejudice against humans. A reason for elves to hate them.

That's why the elves need a place of their own to heal themselves and grow.

[Mistic]

Question of the year

why humans have a short lifespan?

Did they had longevity without the veil?

 

That's a very good question. Thedas has a very Theodosian-centric view of the world. They are indeed responsible of world-changing events, like the creation of the Veil, but one has to wonder what was beyond their borders.

 

Did Elvhenan expand beyond Thedas? If not, why not? If it did, are there other elves out there? Both humans and Qunari came from another continent. What was their origin? Was their nature different pre-Veil? Why did they come to Thedas? And who are those "powers across the sea" and the Executors that appeared in a war table mission chain?

 

Questions, questions.

 

With some luck, DA4 will provide some answers if it's finally set in Tevinter, where the first human tribes in thedas (the Neromenians) arrived, where the Arlathan forest is located and where humans and Qunari are fighting a war.

[Dai Grepher]

Humans aging and dying is probably the result of the physical world. Like gravity, the Earth has its own rule on aging or the passage of time. Rates of decay, etc.

Could humans live as long as the elvhen? Maybe, maybe not. The elvhen are said to have been immune to aging, though conflicting lore states that some entered uthenera, and many never returned.

The only example I know of where a human has lived for many years is of course Avernus. He was able to tap in to the taint's magic and use it to increase his lifespan, but even he is starting to succumb to... well, the taint I guess, but he was aging also. So his was not true agelessness as the elvhen allegedly had. He was just aging slowly.

The other example is from an elf, Zathrian. He used magic to bind a spirit to a curse, and for some reason, as long as the curse endured, so did he. Maybe he inadvertently rediscovered the connection to the Fade that made elves ageless.

So I think perhaps human mages could in theory make that same connection, if they learned how.