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Elves and the pollution of humans


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#226
Jedi Master of Orion

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Right. They submitted to Tevinter after having been slaves in Arlathan. To their elven masters. I admit, I forgot that. My mistake. Thanks.

 

And the human rulers of Orlais then freed them from a life of slavery by giving lands to them, without demanding terms or conditions in return...except that they, you know, helped in the event of a calamity, like, shall we say, A BLIGHT.

 

Indeed, elves are an ungrateful and unreliable people. No wonder they were exiled. Playing the victim card is hard when you leave people to die at the hands of darkspawn. Especially after those who trusted you played an important part in putting an end to your miserable life as a slave.

 

OK, once again.... you seem to be very ignoring the very explicit and specific fact that Orlais did not free the elves from slavery or give them the Dales. The Dales was founded over a century and a half before Orlais became a nation state. In fact it was even over a decade before there even was such a concept as Orlais.


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#227
Sifr

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I suppose technically a human ruler did  give them the land, as Maferath was the one to grant the Dales to the Elves, rewarding them for their service in fighting in Andraste's armies against the Imperium. But as you say, this took place at least 160 years prior to Kordillus Drakon founded Orlais as a nation.

 

Speculating for a moment, it could be that due to the Imperium's border having been pushed back by Andraste's forces, the lands that became the Dirthavaren were granted because they were in uncontested land from anyone else seeking to carve up the former Tevinter territories? Or that a large majority of the population of liberated slaves in the Dales were already elves, thus attracting others to flock there?



#228
Daerog

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OK, once again.... you seem to be very ignoring the very explicit and specific fact that Orlais did not free the elves from slavery or give them the Dales. The Dales was founded over a century and a half before Orlais became a nation state. In fact it was even over a decade before there even was such a concept as Orlais.

Actually, the concept of Orlais started right after Andraste's war with Tevinter. The unification and idea of Orlais began with Isorath, Andraste's eldest (step?)son. Isorath was killed before its complete unification because he was murdered by his wife after people found out about Maferath's betrayal. Drakon would finish uniting the Ciriane people.

Still, Orlais did not free the elves, the contribution of the Ciriane weren't heavily mentioned. One could argue for the Alamarri or the elves freed themselves by taking advantage of the war.

#229
Jedi Master of Orion

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Actually, the concept of Orlais started right after Andraste's war with Tevinter. The unification and idea of Orlais began with Isorath, Andraste's eldest (step?)son. Isorath was killed before its complete unification because he was murdered by his wife after people found out about Maferath's betrayal. Drakon would finish uniting the Ciriane people.

Still, Orlais did not free the elves, the contribution of the Ciriane weren't heavily mentioned. One could argue for the Alamarri or the elves freed themselves by taking advantage of the war.

 

I'm pretty sure all that still happened a decade or so after the founding of Halamshiral. The WoT timeline puts the The Long Walk at -165 Ancient and the Ciriane's Grand Unification at -155 Ancient. 



#230
Daerog

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I'm pretty sure all that still happened a decade or so after the founding of Halamshiral. The WoT timeline puts the The Long Walk at -165 Ancient and the Ciriane's Grand Unification at -155 Ancient.

The unification finished a decade after, ya, but WoT says Isorath worked "to fortify the idea of Orlais." I was just proposing the concept of Orlais was around before Drakon and was the vision that spurred Isorath to unite the tribes.

Then again, it could just be a casual summing up of events by the fictitious author, giving the name of Orlais as a concept in hindsight, even if the name "Orlais" was not considered during the time of Isorath.

Edit: looking up WoT, I was completely wrong on the death of Isorath, he died later, not when the Betrayal was revealed, which was a decade after Andraste's death. Bleh, I skim WoT too much.

#231
Gervaise

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A couple of points to note.   Andraste's mother, Brona, was a Ciriane, and must have been from an important family since her father, Elderath, married Brona to secure his alliance with a number of the small but wealthy tribes in the area that became known as the Fertile Crescent, which I assume covered roughly the area now known as the Heartlands in Orlais.    Mafareth married Andraste for a similar reason and after she was taken prisoner by Tevinter slavers, he was obliged to negotiate her release in order to retain this alliance with the Ciriane tribes.   So it is highly likely that the lands that were given to the elves were in fact lands that came to Maferath through his marriage to Andraste.   Andraste herself may even have promised these to Shartan when forming their alliance because they were hers by right of inheritance and therefore she was entitled to give them to whomsoever she chose.   Then Maferath, not wanting to reveal his treachery to Andraste, honoured the promise that she had already given to the elves.     It seems highly likely that Andraste may have been aware of a historical connection with the ancient elves since the sword she gave to Shartan would appear to have been an ancient elven blade that originally belonged to Andraste's mother, Brona.

 

With regard to the treachery of the elves in not helping Orlais against the Blight.   We only have the Chantry and Orlais' word for the fact that they didn't help.   The story is that the Dalish just stood and watched as the darkspawn sacked Montsimmard.   That is right out on the edge of the Dales, in fact I would say within Orlesian territory.   So if the elves were watching, I think it far more likely that they had march there to help, only to find they had arrived too late to do anything useful, so chose instead to hold the line to prevent the darkspawn spreading eastwards.     I repeat, we only have the word of their subsequent enemies that the elves did nothing.   They could have been actively fighting darkspawn in their own territory.   Most history that we read in the source books and in the codices is Chantry propaganda because it is based off what is generally acknowledged as history within Thedas itself.    That does not necessarily mean it is the truth.

 

Also Orlais and Tevinter didn't exactly cover themselves with glory during the 4th Blight.   Tevinter contributed absolutely nothing to the forces of Garahel and the Grey Wardens, apparently content to simply protect their own borders, whilst Orlais, largely untouched by the 4th Blight, did not send any official army, just individual Chevaliers who wished to help.    When sending representatives to canvas support, the Grey Wardens specifically did not send Garahel or his sister because they were elves as Orlesians would consider that an insult.    So much for solidarity against the Blight.     It should also be noted that several places that Drakon liberated from the 2nd Blight had to win back their freedom from his empire subsequently.      So the view of the leadership in the Dales at that time that Orlais was no better than Tevinter, was probably a pretty accurate assessment.   If anything it was the 2nd Blight that kept hostilities from breaking out between Orlais and the Dales a lot sooner.   Clearly there was already bad feeling about Orlais in the Dales in Ameridan's time, likely because they were worried about Drakon's intentions, but this did not erupt into violence until the end of the Blight allowed Drakon's son to look to expand their empire again, particularly since they had lost the Anderfels to independence even before the end of the 2nd Blight.    The moment the Divine Hortensia named the new century the Glory Age it was pretty clear what would happen next.


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#232
IHaveReturned1999

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They twisted the Chant to hate right now and shows no signs of wanting to change aside from the Leliana Divine ending and even that's an uphill battle that many of her detractors consider an unrealistic goal.
 

Caring for the poor can be done by secular physicians, which would probably benefit from the lack of religous dogma hounding their science. Or do you enjoy being treated by a doctor who's prescription to you are leeches and this sugary drink? Don't forget to pay your tithe for nothing with a free religious trinket that does absolutely nothing. The Chantry are nothing but charlatans. Don't let your compassion for a few confuse you about the ills of a major institution's negative effect on all of society. Organizations are not the people, it's a hungry abstract beast thriving on your gullibility. Do I need persuade you to not let a thing keep hurting you?
 
Those orphans the Chantry raise. They grow up to be lyrium addled templars. You condone an orphanage that makes soldiers who's fate being nothing but a lyrium addled simpleton, their life consisting of being a thug or jailer. Even I can believe society can do better than that. The Chantry doesn't help the disenfranchise, they use them.

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