231 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

I wonder if the idea that elves needed to keep themselves separate from humans may have originally been a command by the Evanuris.   As has been suggested, there may have been relations between elves and humans initially, particularly among the lower classes.    Initially this might have been encouraged because it resulted in more human servants/slaves but then it was discovered that whilst they looked human, they had inherited their elven parent's magical nature, at which point it was prohibited because the last thing the Evanuris and their nobility wanted was the possibility of a challenge to their superiority and something about these magical humans made them view them as a threat.

 

That is an intriguing idea. It would add an almost religious side to that xenophobia, and it would explain why the Quickening wasn't linked to Fen'Harel too (they did blame him for many other things, so adding the Quickening to the list wouldn't have been a stretch).

 

It may also support another theory that appears from time to time: that the first human mages and/or the first human Dreamers had elf blood in them. Bioware love their ironic twists and world-changing reveals: what better, in a game set in Tevinter, than discovering that the arrogant Altus who value their magic blood so much owe it to past elven ancestors?

[Reznore57]

Humans definitely arrived before the Veil was raised, otherwise there was no real reason why they should have been connected with the Quickening.

 

There's a  reason why , elves and humans have been foes for a while.

Why do humans have tales of dalish eating babies?Probably not because Dalish have eaten many human babies but because those two races can't stand each others as far as history goes.

 

First we don't even know when those stories of "quickening" were made up .It's possible the elves that survived the fall of their empire had a whole different tale.

Second the current Dalish have lost the knowledge of the creation of the veil.And this happened thousand and thousand of years ago , enough time to create a new version that fits their current point of view  better.

[Gervaise]

The loss of the knowledge of the creation of the Veil is one of those things that seems odd now we know the truth.    The Dalish elves had remembered quite accurately the fact that Fen'Harel was responsible for the loss of their gods and even that when they remember what it is to be true elves their gods will return but apparently missed out the whole bit about the Veil being the reason they are no longer "true elves" and that Fen'Harel was responsible for their loss of magic and immortality.    

 

I was perfectly happy to assume that the Dalish worldview was based off later events before the revelations in Trespasser.    Now it just seems illogical that they could remember so much about their gods, even their names, and the nature of the elves prior to the Quickening, but that vital bit of information about Fen'Harel and the Veil is totally lacking.    

 

In the past I was quite happy to accept limited revelations that my Dalish would know nothing about because of the loss of their culture but this is becoming harder.   Either they lost practically everything and so should not remember so much as they do or they in fact remember far more than is revealed in game but it suits the writers to make it appear that they do not.    Take the story about Ameriden.    There was even a clan who had apparently been claiming for years that he was one of their own.    I can understand the Chantry and the Orlesians conveniently airbrushing him from history, just like Shartan, but I don't find it credible that my Lavellan would have been totally ignorant of his existence.   In fact looking back to the Dalish origin in DAO, I found it hard to understand why Shartan didn't appear more prominently in their stories.    I only discovered his name when I spoke to that Chantry sister.      It is all very well the Dalish accusing the humans of forgetting that Andraste called Shartan "brother" when it is made to appear as though the Dalish themselves find him an embarrassment.     Then there is Red Crossing.   Someone had to have buried those Emerald Knights in the tomb.   I find it hard to believe that they weren't aware of the story, particularly as the scroll with the information was sealed there too but apparently it was a total surprise to modern Dalish.    So we have a people who are obsessed with recovering the past and have a culture where it is important to remember things, as Merrill put it "even the dangerous ones", yet they constantly seem unaware of their own history?    It is just not credible, particularly when we constantly have scholars from the university of Orlais apparently being well aware.

[Illegitimus]

I find that kind of like wondering why the DAO Dalish Elf doesn't know what a halla is.  

[Reznore57]

The loss of the knowledge of the creation of the Veil is one of those things that seems odd now we know the truth.    The Dalish elves had remembered quite accurately the fact that Fen'Harel was responsible for the loss of their gods and even that when they remember what it is to be true elves their gods will return but apparently missed out the whole bit about the Veil being the reason they are no longer "true elves" and that Fen'Harel was responsible for their loss of magic and immortality.    

 

I was perfectly happy to assume that the Dalish worldview was based off later events before the revelations in Trespasser.    Now it just seems illogical that they could remember so much about their gods, even their names, and the nature of the elves prior to the Quickening, but that vital bit of information about Fen'Harel and the Veil is totally lacking.    

 

In the past I was quite happy to accept limited revelations that my Dalish would know nothing about because of the loss of their culture but this is becoming harder.   Either they lost practically everything and so should not remember so much as they do or they in fact remember far more than is revealed in game but it suits the writers to make it appear that they do not.    Take the story about Ameriden.    There was even a clan who had apparently been claiming for years that he was one of their own.    I can understand the Chantry and the Orlesians conveniently airbrushing him from history, just like Shartan, but I don't find it credible that my Lavellan would have been totally ignorant of his existence.   In fact looking back to the Dalish origin in DAO, I found it hard to understand why Shartan didn't appear more prominently in their stories.    I only discovered his name when I spoke to that Chantry sister.      It is all very well the Dalish accusing the humans of forgetting that Andraste called Shartan "brother" when it is made to appear as though the Dalish themselves find him an embarrassment.     Then there is Red Crossing.   Someone had to have buried those Emerald Knights in the tomb.   I find it hard to believe that they weren't aware of the story, particularly as the scroll with the information was sealed there too but apparently it was a total surprise to modern Dalish.    So we have a people who are obsessed with recovering the past and have a culture where it is important to remember things, as Merrill put it "even the dangerous ones", yet they constantly seem unaware of their own history?    It is just not credible, particularly when we constantly have scholars from the university of Orlais apparently being well aware.

 

Well there's the great piece of lore in WOT1 I think saying the elves believe their gods are stuck in the Eternal City in the Beyond.

Thing is we never hear that in game as far as I know.

But the worst is , if indeed it is a thing...well Golden City anyone?

You'd think some elves would have vapors about the city turning black and human going there.

[Gervaise]

I know what you mean.   You'd think that when my Lavellan discovers they are in the Beyond (Fade) they would be either excited at being in their Holy Place or rather disillusioned that it wasn't better.     They believe their gods are trapped in the Eternal City at the heart of the Beyond, which is clearly the same as the Golden/Black City but not once is that raised in game.    You would also think that among the many things they accuse the humans of, assaulting and corrupting the Eternal City would be one of the main ones, but again this is never brought up.  Incidentally, considering the extreme similarity between these ideas, it is why I feel that the true Arlathan is the Eternal City/Golden City/Black city.     Also, since the Dalish believe that Fen'Harel still roamed the beyond, my Lavellan would be very nervous about encountering him there.    In retrospect that would have made for a rather comic/ironic conversation:

Lavallen: "Oh s**t, we're in the Fade, keep an eye out for the Dread Wolf"

Solas: "It's okay, I don't think you need worry about him."

Lavellan: "How can you be sure?   Have you met him in your travels?"

Solas: "No, I've never actually met him."

 

As an aside, one of the things that annoys me a bit when Cassandra asks whether I believe in the Maker and I point out that I believe in the elven gods, she responds with "And isn't there room for one more?" or words to that effect.   Surely it has always been the Chantry that will not allow compromise of this sort?    This infuriates me even more now I know the story of Ameriden, because clearly there were Dalish who did feel you could believe in both but as Ameriden reflects in his memories, it is Drakon who wants to keep things simple and exclude all other gods and Ameriden foresaw the problems this would create.     For some reason, throughout DAI, the members of the Chantry in the Inquisition constantly appear to have a liberal view of these things.   Look at Mother Giselle maintaining the Exalted March on the Dales wasn't a proper Exalted March contrasted with all those historical accounts in the Exalted Plains of the words of Sister Amity.  I really wanted to drag Giselle out there and ask her what she had to say to that.   Then there is Leliana, of course, who has her own interpretation of the Maker and the Chant that was previously criticised by those in Lothering.   No wonder the rest of the Chantry consider them heretics.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gervaise:  I think you should see people like Cassandra, Leliana and Giselle as greater people than the myopic thinking of their religion.

 

There are advocates of religions the world over that are incredibly open minded... and close minded people pigeonhole them all the time because their religions espouse a conservative viewpoint.  

 

You said it exactly right... the Chantry considers them heretics because they to no conform like mindless sheep while still finding value in the Chantry faith.

 

For my Dalish - the Maker can be a relevant presence - but my Dalish has no context by which he would refer to the Maker (except for the events of Inquisition) so while not actively anti-Chantry - he would still refer to the elven gods far more in his day to day interactions with the world. 

[Sah291]

As an aside, one of the things that annoys me a bit when Cassandra asks whether I believe in the Maker and I point out that I believe in the elven gods, she responds with "And isn't there room for one more?" or words to that effect.   Surely it has always been the Chantry that will not allow compromise of this sort?    This infuriates me even more now I know the story of Ameriden, because clearly there were Dalish who did feel you could believe in both but as Ameriden reflects in his memories, it is Drakon who wants to keep things simple and exclude all other gods and Ameriden foresaw the problems this would create.  

Yeah, actually early Christianity did spread to many pagan polytheists in exactly this way. Cassandra's argument about why not one more, is not unreasonable from a polytheistic point of view. I think the difference is what happens when one particular religion/sect becomes the official state religion, and then there becomes political reasons for the endorsing or banning of other gods, etc. I'm guessing the Chantry's desire to have an empire, in order to counter Tevinter, is behind a lot of that.

[Gervaise]

Actually the opposite was true of early Christianity.   The reason they ran foul of the Roman Empire was because they insisted there was only one god.    The Romans were quite prepared to accept worship of local deities provided this didn't challenge their rule (which is where the druids came unstuck in England).   The Christians were described as atheists because they wouldn't acknowledge the Roman deities and also the Emperor cult.    This was considered subversive and potentially harmful to public order; hence the periodic persecution.    St Paul in particular caused riots in a number of places he visited because of his religious views, so the Roman authority's attitude wasn't without justification based on earlier events.

 

The thing about religion in Thedas is that people seem too liberal compared with what you would expect in such a setting.    I was surprised in Masked Empire that Gaspard and his allies could get away with sponsoring a play that suggested scandalous relations between Andraste and Shartan, which would seem bad enough, but simultaneously with getting the scholars at the university to claim that having relations with an elf was an offence to the Maker and likened it to have sex with animals.    Yet all the anger seemed directed at Celene because of her perceived leniency with elves, as Gaspard intended with his satirical play, rather than at the insult to the memory of their prophet, both in what was actually shown and in using her for a bit of tawdry political gain.      What occurred in DA2, with Mother Petrice stirring up trouble with the Qunari and having the support of many local people seemed much more in keeping with how people would behave.    What seemed odd in Trespasser was that given how Skyhold had quickly become a place of pilgrimage and the ordinary people were convinced the Herald was a genuine servant of the Maker (whether they claimed it or not), was that there wasn't greater fear of a backlash by the populace in trying to get rid of the Inquisition.

[Sah291]

Yeah, they were politically subversive to the Roman state, which was my point about it being more political than theological. The Roman state was tolerant of various local deities and beliefs, up until you attack the state itself, and start doing things like refusing to pay taxes, or refusing to recognize the authority of the emperor, etc. Philosophically though, there was a lot more syncretistism going on.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually the opposite was true of early Christianity.   The reason they ran foul of the Roman Empire was because they insisted there was only one god.    The Romans were quite prepared to accept worship of local deities provided this didn't challenge their rule (which is where the druids came unstuck in England).   The Christians were described as atheists because they wouldn't acknowledge the Roman deities and also the Emperor cult.    This was considered subversive and potentially harmful to public order; hence the periodic persecution.    St Paul in particular caused riots in a number of places he visited because of his religious views, so the Roman authority's attitude wasn't without justification based on earlier events.

 

 

 

This makes it sound you believe religious persecution is justified. 

[Gervaise]

No, I don't believe it is justified; I was playing Devil's advocate.    I'm just saying how it might have appeared to the Roman authorities based on reports they were receiving.   I recall that one of the early saints actually had to insist that his flock didn't deliberately try and make themselves martyrs by antagonising the authorities.  Even St Paul himself wrote that they should submit to Roman rule provided they weren't asked to do anything that contradicted their beliefs.   He didn't intentionally provoke the riots, they just happened as a consequence of what he was preaching.    In fact it backfired against the oppressors eventually because they used the punishment of Christians as public entertainment.   When people saw the courage of ordinary men and women in the face of barbaric death, which they attributed to their faith in their god, people started wondering if there might not be something in it.   Then a faith that was originally seen to be one of slaves and women started to appeal to the male upper classes.   Once that happened it was only a matter of time before it became acceptable and then official.    Still I also recall that after it became the state religion there were those of the old guard who suggested that the decline of the Empire was due to the abandonment/offending of their traditional deities.   (A lot of this seems to have been incorporated into the history of religion in the Tevinter  Imperium)

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I have a solution for elves to have stability and independence from human influence by setting up a treaty.

- Give the elves the Emerald Graves and The Arbor Wilds and have all human settlers evicted, and all elves evicted from human cities all over Thedas to live in the lands with the elven community.

-The Imperium and all human nations will compensate the elves for their disparites and slavery as reparations.

-The Chantry and human settlers are not allowed to settle in elven territory nor the Chantry will have missionaries.

-They will only ally with Grey Wardens and human nations to fight the darkspawn and to trade.
-No human religion teachings
-If an elf is having relationship with a human he/she is automatically exiled to keep the peace.
-If a human entered their territory to harass, attempt to start a war, disturbing the peace, or any kind of crime against the elves will be dealt with in the elves discretion.

[Dean_the_Young]

I have a solution for elves to have stability and independence from human influence by setting up a treaty.

- Give the elves the Emerald Graves and The Arbor Wilds and have all human settlers evicted, and all elves evicted from human cities all over Thedas.

-The Imperium and all human nations will compensate the elves for their disparites and slavery as reparations.

-The Chantry and human settlers are not allowed to settle in elven territory nor the Chantry will have missionaries.

-They will only ally with Grey Wardens and human nations to fight the darkspawn and to trade.
-No human religion teachings
-If an elf is having relationship with a human he/she is automatically exiled to keep the peace.
-If a human entered their territory to harass, attempt to start a war, disturbing the peace, or any kind of crime against the elves will be dealt with in the elves discretion.

 

Racial cleansing, guilt by blood, conviction of the innocent, religious persecution, eugenics, mythical collectivization of government action, and a repeat of a disastrous foreign policy the last elven hermit kingdom wouldn't even abide to last time.

 

I dunno. Aside from the 'ewe' factor of a xenophobic racial purity state, that sounds like a baaaaahd decision, blacksheep. Sounds like it'd herd the elves more than it'd help. You sure someone didn't pull the wool over your eyes when it came to history 101?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Racial cleansing, guilt by blood, conviction of the innocent, religious persecution, eugenics, mythical collectivization of government action, and a repeat of a disastrous foreign policy the last elven hermit kingdom wouldn't even abide to last time.

I dunno. Aside from the 'ewe' factor of a xenophobic racial purity state, that sounds like a baaaaahd decision, blacksheep. Sounds like it'd herd the elves more than it'd help. You sure someone didn't pull the wool over your eyes when it came to history 101?

It's obviously you don't have the capacity to understand of what the word independence means. Should I spell it out for you with crayons?

[Dean_the_Young]

All I'm offering is independence without human influence and oppression, and it's obviously you don't have the capacity to understand of what the word independence means. Should I spell it out for you?

 

I'd feel pretty sheepish too if my bleatings turned out to be an incredibly bigoted racial purity state, but ewe want what ewe want, even if you want to enshrine racism.

 

Sail on, you sheep of fools- I'm sure you'll ram you way through to the infinitely better elven influence and oppression. Definitely worked for the last ewe eleven states. I'm sure it's be mutton like all the other bigoted sheepwreck out there.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I'd feel pretty sheepish too if my bleatings turned out to be an incredibly bigoted racial purity state, but ewe want what ewe want, even if you want to enshrine racism.
 
Sail on, you sheep of fools- I'm sure you'll ram you way through to the infinitely better elven influence and oppression. Definitely worked for the last ewe eleven states. I'm sure it's be mutton like all the other bigoted sheepwreck out there.

Wow.......you're special. I mean really special.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wow.......you're special. I mean really special.

 

Coming from you, that's almost an insult.

 

In my ambivalent defense, I did warn the public I wouldn't be passing on the sheep puns if you kept your new title. It's more the image, really- you lack the self-awareness to pull it off convincingly, so I'm just giving the various bigoted ideas posted by it the respect they deserve.

 

But seriously- it doesn't fit you. This may be how you think you look when you post like that...

 

 

 

But this is how you actually come across.

 

 

 

(If you can't tell, you're the white one.)

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Coming from you, that's almost an insult.
 
In my ambivalent defense, I did warn the public I wouldn't be passing on the sheep puns if you kept your new title. It's more the image, really- you lack the self-awareness to pull it off convincingly, so I'm just giving the various bigoted ideas posted by it the respect they deserve.
 
But seriously- it doesn't fit you. This may be how you think you look when you post like that...
 

 
 
But this is how you actually come across.
 
 

 
(If you can't tell, you're the white one.)

I'll take that as a complement.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll take that as a complement.

 

You should. You talk and act a lot like a white guy.

 

Mind you, they're the kind who wear hoods and worry about miscegenation, but the logic patterns are there.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You should. You talk and act a lot like a white guy.
 
Mind you, they're the kind who wear hoods and worry about miscegenation, but the logic patterns are there.

You expecting me to speak Ebonics or you can't stand my intellect and having my own mind that offends you because I'm a person of African descent?

[Tidus]

The real cause of the hatred toward Elves comes from the Chantry-"The Maker would send no Elf" cried the Mother at Val Royeaux as she spew forth her lies and hate. Its time to purge the Chantry of its bigotry,racism and fear mongering.  

 

So,wise up you Elf haters..You're nothing more then puppets of the Chantry and its racism.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No, I don't believe it is justified; I was playing Devil's advocate.    I'm just saying how it might have appeared to the Roman authorities based on reports they were receiving.   I recall that one of the early saints actually had to insist that his flock didn't deliberately try and make themselves martyrs by antagonising the authorities.  Even St Paul himself wrote that they should submit to Roman rule provided they weren't asked to do anything that contradicted their beliefs.   He didn't intentionally provoke the riots, they just happened as a consequence of what he was preaching.    In fact it backfired against the oppressors eventually because they used the punishment of Christians as public entertainment.  When people saw the courage of ordinary men and women in the face of barbaric death, which they attributed to their faith in their god, people started wondering if there might not be something in it.   Then a faith that was originally seen to be one of slaves and women started to appeal to the male upper classes.   Once that happened it was only a matter of time before it became acceptable and then official.    Still I also recall that after it became the state religion there were those of the old guard who suggested that the decline of the Empire was due to the abandonment/offending of their traditional deities.   (A lot of this seems to have been incorporated into the history of religion in the Tevinter  Imperium)

Richard:
"And thus I clothe my naked villany
With odd old ends stol'n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

King Richard III (I, iii, 336-338)

[Patricia08]

 

 

Can someone find the black sheep .  

[Dean_the_Young]

You expecting me to speak Ebonics or you can't stand my intellect and having my own mind that offends you

 

How could I stand your intellect? It's tiny. Does it stack on something, or does it just kind of wallow there?

 

As for having your own mind, most of the time you just repeat the arguments of not very respected old white guys. When you can't be bothered to do that, you just retreat to the realm of 'it's, like, my opinion maaaan,' and don't even do that much. The bastion of intellectual independence you are not.

 

Though I do applaud you for adding 'intellect' to your repertoire of stock words. That's new, if inauthentic- people confident in their own intellect don't need to go around stating their own intellect. It's the argument equivalent of 'I do too have friends- you just never see them!'
 

 

because I'm a person of African descent?

 

Which part- South Africa, circa some unreformed Anglo-Dutch settlers? Because you sure act like a stereotypical white bigot, and most people of African descent don't. Especially those in the American political context, where rigid segregation, racial exclusion, and 'not one drop' racial classification systems are considered bad things, not desirable end-states for a state.

 

Now, mind you, that doesn't mean you can't be what you'd like us to think you are- it'd be racist to discount the possibility just because you'd be a deviant from the norm- but I'm not seeing much to support it either. It's easy to claim just about anything as part of an internet persona.

 

Internet being what it is, I guess you're just not credible enough to warrant a racial classification. Bar something really convincing, you'll just be another poster, an anonymous grey like everyone else.