231 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

I don't know if you can boil it down to explaining it as simple as that. The Chantry's members aren't all knowingly complicit in a historical cover up, not would they necessarily by trying to preach hateful things about elves. It's a complicated situation.

They're complicit in holding humans superior to other races and banning other races from joining the clergy. Even if given another point of view, I doubt they'd be open minded enough to learn it. Even Mother Giselle who can see the clear perversions of the politics of the Chantry doesn't voice out reform unless in the company of heretics and thus continuing to enable the corruption. The Chant of Light should tell the truth and the Chantry does not. Not that complicated.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They're complicit in holding humans superior to other races and banning other races from joining the clergy. Even if given another point of view, I doubt they'd be open minded enough to learn it. Even Mother Giselle who can see the clear perversions of the politics of the Chantry doesn't voice out reform unless in the company of heretics and thus continuing to enable the corruption. The Chant of Light should tell the truth and the Chantry does not. Not that complicated.

Leliana provides a drastically different point of view when she becomes Divine, and the Chantry learns and accepts it relatively quickly. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They're complicit in holding humans superior to other races and banning other races from joining the clergy. Even if given another point of view, I doubt they'd be open minded enough to learn it. Even Mother Giselle who can see the clear perversions of the politics of the Chantry doesn't voice out reform unless in the company of heretics and thus continuing to enable the corruption. The Chant of Light should tell the truth and the Chantry does not. Not that complicated.

 

That part doesn't really have it's roots in the Chantry though. That's just how all human society operates.

 

The example that comes to mind about the Chantry's relationship with elves is that one Mother in Haven that talks to one of the elves about the Chant of Light. She denies that the Canticle of Shartan ever existed so she's (knowingly or not) helping suppress his religious heritage, but she still insists that Maker loves him as much anyway. I can't really call that preaching hate, even if I can't quite call it right either.

[Daerog]

WoT states that the canticle of shartan was always questionable, as it was believed to just be old elf tales twisted to fit into the Chant.

Which gives support to the theory that there was no Shartan or Shartan was a legend developed from the true history of Solas.

Edit: It is not against doctrine for elves, dwarves, or mages to be part of the clergy. It's just part of society. If it was against doctrine, Viv's appointment as Divine would have caused another schism... it was apparently just not seen as good, even if it didn't oppose doctrine, when the first schism happened.

[Daerog]

That part doesn't really have it's roots in the Chantry though. That's just how all human society operates.

The example that comes to mind about the Chantry's relationship with elves is that one Mother in Haven that talks to one of the elves about the Chant of Light. She denies that the Canticle of Shartan ever existed so she's (knowingly or not) helping suppress his religious heritage, but she still insists that Maker loves him as much anyway. I can't really call that preaching hate, even if I can't quite call it right either.

If we are talking about the actions of clergy in supporting elves, I only recall that one mother voicing against the abuse of elves by nobles in Fereldan, which promptly got her smacked. No other human besides the PC and her cared for the alienage elves in Origins.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

WoT states that the canticle of shartan was always questionable, as it was believed to just be old elf tales twisted to fit into the Chant.

Which gives support to the theory that there was no Shartan or Shartan was a legend developed from the true history of Solas.

Edit: It is not against doctrine for elves, dwarves, or mages to be part of the clergy. It's just part of society. If it was against doctrine, Viv's appointment as Divine would have caused another schism... it was apparently just not seen as good, even if it didn't oppose doctrine, when the first schism happened.

 

WoT 2 does suggest there may never have been a Shartan because no historical evidence of him from the elven slave rebellions has been found, but I think we know that is likely wrong from playing the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest. Even if the spirit of him we found in the Temple of Sacred Ashes was a fade spirit, it still probably must have been based on a real person.

[Daerog]

WoT 2 does suggest there may never have been a Shartan because no historical evidence of him from the elven slave rebellions has been found, but I think we know that is likely wrong from playing the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest. Even if the spirit of him we found in the Temple of Sacred Ashes was a fade spirit, it still probably must have been based on a real person.

A person doesn't need to have been real for a spirit to take on it's role, as the Avvar have shown us. The person just needs to be believed in.

I like the idea of a single elf hero, but there may have been multiple Shartans, with the name "shartan" being a lost word for an elf hero or something... like Solas meaning Pride.

Still, I'm not entirely sure if BW has this all known and planned out, or if they are making stuff up as they go along. Did they plan for Shartan and Solas to be the only bald elves without blood tattoos, or was that just coincidence?

Edit: I think they have to be spirits, because that sucks for the Anointed (plus two others) to be stuck in a temple waiting to give riddles rather than at the Maker's side. However, that is just speculation... those ash demons could be separate from the ones riddling. Also, an acquaintance appears there, living or dead, so the Temple does update...

[Sports72Xtrm]

That part doesn't really have it's roots in the Chantry though. That's just how all human society operates.

If the Chantry chooses to emulate the corruption of secular society which seems like a way to shift the blame of corruption to society even though clearly corruption is clearly embedded in the Chantry, then I would say the roots of hate are embedded in the Chantry if the Chantry emulates society instead of representing the Chant of Light's ideals. And currently the Chantry does. No one is forcing the Chantry to emulate the corruption of society and in theory, their mandate is to strive to be beyond secular wants and corruption and enforce the spirit of the Chant. If they choose not to do that, then they choose to be corrupted by choice, not because society is converting them by force. Ironically, if its human society that's compelled to such corruption then they shouldn't be the ones running the Chantry.

 

 

 

The example that comes to mind about the Chantry's relationship with elves is that one Mother in Haven that talks to one of the elves about the Chant of Light. She denies that the Canticle of Shartan ever existed so she's (knowingly or not) helping suppress his religious heritage, but she still insists that Maker loves him as much anyway. I can't really call that preaching hate, even if I can't quite call it right either.

That's the Chantry patronizing the other races, to treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority. To deny other races access to the clergy is to acknowledge that the other races can't lead or perform positions of leadership that does the Maker's work as well as humans. That's a form of discrimination which is rooted in racism. All racism stems from some sort of economic or societal resentment. "<Insert race> shouldn't be able to run businesses because all <Insert race> are lazy. Only my race can run businesses effectively." Translation: Leadership positions should belong only to my kind and I hate the others who strive to take away positions of authority away from me. The resentment derived from these types of suppression is a form of hate thus the term is quite apt to describe it. And the feeling of superiority is a form of pride which ironically- as Mother Giselle says- that the Chantry teaches that "pride is evil."

[rapscallioness]

OP, I suspect it's much more straightforward. The appearance of humans and the Veil coming down happened about the same time. Albeit a process, not overnight, but accumulated repercussions from the Veil coming down.

 

The elves didn't know Solas had brought the Veil down. The Veil being a construct of Solas is not common knowledge. Yet the elves were suffering, and did not know why. They look around and the only thing they see different is that the humans were here now.

 

So, it's like suspecting you got the flu from that one guy you shook hands with a couple days ago. You coulda sworn you saw him coughing in the hallway earlier that day. They just got it wrong. They made assumptions with the information they had.

 

**note however that I don't share the idea that the elves were spirits that became ...slaves of Sensation while dabbling in the mortal/mundane world. I think the elves were physically native to Thedas. True children of the land of the Thedas. The Evanuris, on the other hand, not so much.

[Daerog]

The Chantry chooses to emulate corrupt secular society? These are people who grew up in the society where those who disagree are silenced by the nobility. However, those who do read the Chant and doctrines do try to do good but have to work in/with the society they live in. Nobles are shown to be okay with attacking lowly clergy, and higher clergy can be assassinated. The clergy is as vulnerable to the ills of society as anyone else.

However, it seems we agree that the root of corruption is in secular society, otherwise it would be society emulating the Chantry, not the other way around.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Chantry chooses to emulate corrupt secular society? These are people who grew up in the society where those who disagree are silenced by the nobility. However, those who do read the Chant and doctrines do try to do good but have to work in/with the society they live in. Nobles are shown to be okay with attacking lowly clergy, and higher clergy can be assassinated. The clergy is as vulnerable to the ills of society as anyone else.

The Chantry has enough power to defend themselves from politics. Their iron grip on the lyrium trade and an army of templars at their beck and call prove they aren't just meek preachers. Their ability to even create an Inquisition, a non-governmental organization that silences dissenters also show they have power. They just choose not to exercise it in favor of expediency. The Divine is as rich and influential as kings, no denying that.

 

 

 

However, it seems we agree that the root of corruption is in secular society, otherwise it would be society emulating the Chantry, not the other way around.

To emphasize again my point: They cannot shift the blame about their own corruption and say they had no choice. I believe you're twisting my words.

[Daerog]

An Inquisition that had to be disbanded or reassigned due to the whims of secular powers?

Templars that just walked out on the Chantry because the Seekers considered themselves a hired group rather than a branch of the Chantry?

Lyrium trade. Right. No one had any real need for lyrium other than templars and mages. Apostates had a black market they could go to. Hawke has no trouble getting black market lyrium for the Templar spec.

They have to work with the powers to do their job. No one raised a fuss when that noble brat assaulted a Mother.

While members of clergy can fall to temptation, or lose themselves to all the politics (unavoidable with the Game in Orlais), that doesn't mean what they do is what the Chantry teaches.

[Sports72Xtrm]

An Inquisition that had to be disbanded or reassigned due to the whims of secular powers?

Templars that just walked out on the Chantry because the Seekers considered themselves a hired group rather than a branch of the Chantry?

Lyrium trade. Right. No one had any real need for lyrium other than templars and mages. Apostates had a black market they could go to. Hawke has no trouble getting black market lyrium for the Templar spec.

They have to work with the powers to do their job. No one raised a fuss when that noble brat assaulted a Mother.

If the Chantry doesn't practice what it preaches, then they convert no one, they spread the Chant to no one. As mother Giselle says, the Chantry spreads the Maker's word by example, not by doing what is convenient. If they are unable to fullfill that mandate, why even have a Chantry? It's clear that the Chantry has no influence if outside forces can subdue them and dictate to them what is right- riding them roughshod. If the Sunburst throne is just a guilded chair for corrupt kings to speak out of, then they do not speak for the Maker. It's the Chantry job to influence secular society, not the other way around.

 

 

 

While members of clergy can fall to temptation, or lose themselves to all the politics (unavoidable with the Game in Orlais), that doesn't mean what they do is what the Chantry teaches.

What it proves is that the Chantry is just an excessive corrupt organization not able to perform the tasks it was meant to do and is useless. Just another means for the oligarchy to abuse the Chantry's votaries.

[Daerog]

It pushes what influence it can, but it doesn't completely dominate Thedas. It tries to remain independent, but like in real history, it can be bullied by powerful nations or people at times.

There are those who practice what they preach. It seems most do. However, the ills of society do not originate from the Chantry, and no one is entirely immune to the influence of one's environment. The Chantry has done and continues to do good things, but we sometimes run into bad examples, it wouldn't be realistic for everyone to fit the ideals they subscribe to.

[Daerog]

What it proves is that the Chantry is just an excessive corrupt organization not able to perform the tasks it was meant to do and is useless. Just another means for the oligarchy to abuse the Chantry's votaries.

It's done a lot for Thedas and spreading the Chant to bring the Maker back. It is working, overall.

Members falling short shouldn't be a death sentence to an organization/institute, otherwise there would be no organizations or institutes. People will always fall short of ideals.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It pushes what influence it can, but it doesn't completely dominate Thedas. It tries to remain independent, but like in real history, it can be bullied by powerful nations or people at times.

There are those who practice what they preach. It seems most do. However, the ills of society do not originate from the Chantry, and no one is entirely immune to the influence of one's environment. The Chantry has done and continues to do good things, but we sometimes run into bad examples, it wouldn't be realistic for everyone to fit the ideals they subscribe to.

Seeing as they can be bullied, then there is no reason to even have a Chantry. The Chantry's services can all be done by secular government. There's no reason for them to have any influence at all. What is the Chant of Light but just words if those who are meant to enforce it don't. Clearly, the Chantry is nothing but shadows on the wall by priests posturing for power they do not actually possess.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It's done a lot for Thedas and spreading the Chant to bring the Maker back. It is working, overall.

Members falling short shouldn't be a death sentence to an organization/institute, otherwise there would be no organizations or institutes. People will always fall short of ideals.

Their failure to uphold those ideals let the downtrodden to be abused. Even in political practicality, they cannot provide a service the secular government could not perform themselves. You said it yourself, they couldn't keep the Circle or the Templars in line, and that war spread all through out Ferelden and set the world on fire. Negligence and incompetence of their duties that resulted in the deaths of people are unforgivable.

[Daerog]

The duties secular powers can perform and choose not to.

The Circle and Templars are not the core mission of the Chantry. It was an extra burden it placed on itself due to historical events and negotiations. Other nations taking on the burden of their mages I see as a good thing and not opposed to the Chantry. Perhaps it's current politics, but not its teachings.

The Chantry sought peace, mages and Templars disagreed. People claim the Chantry wishes control through lyrium, but that's speculation. The Inquisition started the lyrium use, not the Chantry.

Anyway, this is just becoming Chantry apologetics or whatever, and this thread is about elves and humans. My original argument was the Chantry does not teach hate towards elves. Sorry for getting the topic off track.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Chantry says it loves elves but allows nobles and chevaliers to murder and rape them in their ghettos unchecked. The Chantry say they love mages but imprisons them, takes away their rights to govern themselves, and uses tranquility and templars as political bludgeons to murder or oppress them. The Chantry says they don't interefere with foreign nations, but in the past they've used templars to assassinate a viscount for the benefit of Orlais, or support Orlesian puppets like Meghren in Ferelden. That the Chantry patronizes its votaries is part of the problem, providing trivial social services in exchange for an excess of corrupt practices. Minimum good that can be done by the government itself for max abuses. What good is a religion that speaks peace but practices oppression? It does not protect the elves or anyone  they were meant to protect from abuse, they just cozy up with bribes from their abusers in a rotating door of corruption to maintain office. Huh, kind of like our own politics. Still haven't seen any evidence that the Chantry isn't corrupt at all, just assertions that they treat their votaries well despite what is clear as day is a falsehood.

[Macha'Anu]

If the Chantry doesn't practice what it preaches, then they convert no one, they spread the Chant to no one. As mother Giselle says, the Chantry spreads the Maker's word by example, not by doing what is convenient. If they are unable to fullfill that mandate, why even have a Chantry? It's clear that the Chantry has no influence if outside forces can subdue them and dictate to them what is right- riding them roughshod. If the Sunburst throne is just a guilded chair for corrupt kings to speak out of, then they do not speak for the Maker. It's the Chantry job to influence secular society, not the other way around.

 

What it proves is that the Chantry is just an excessive corrupt organization not able to perform the tasks it was meant to do and is useless. Just another means for the oligarchy to abuse the Chantry's votaries.

The church itself is corrupt but not all within that chantry are corrupt. Some truly love and care for all regardless of race and or faith. Just like real life. Can't blame an intimate object IE The chant for the actions of grown adults who know dang well right from wrong. The chantry itself would be a big help to thedas if they stop speaking the chant they twist into hate and helped took care of the poor and the oppressed as andraste intended. It's common sense. The chantry purpose was to care for the poor and fight for the oppressed. I, even as a non chantry believer and more Dalish/pagan leaner, refuse to blame all people within the chantry for the actions of others.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The church itself is corrupt but not all within that chantry are corrupt. Some truly love and care for all regardless of race and or faith. Just like real life. Can't blame an intimate object IE The chant for the actions of grown adults who know dang well right from wrong. The chantry itself would be a big help to thedas if they stop speaking the chant they twist into hate and helped took care of the poor and the oppressed as andraste intended. It's common sense. The chantry purpose was to care for the poor and fight for the oppressed. I, even as a non chantry believer and more Dalish/pagan leaner, refuse to blame all people within the chantry for the actions of others.

They twisted the Chant to hate right now and shows no signs of wanting to change aside from the Leliana Divine ending and even that's an uphill battle that many of her detractors consider an unrealistic goal.

 

The Chantry says it loves elves but allows nobles and chevaliers to murder and rape them in their ghettos unchecked. The Chantry say they love mages but imprisons them, takes away their rights to govern themselves, and uses tranquility and templars as political bludgeons to murder or oppress them. The Chantry says they don't interefere with foreign nations, but in the past they've used templars to assassinate a viscount for the benefit of Orlais, or support Orlesian puppets like Meghren in Ferelden. That the Chantry patronizes its votaries is part of the problem, providing trivial social services in exchange for an excess of corrupt practices. Minimum good that can be done by the government itself for max abuses. What good is a religion that speaks peace but practices oppression? It does not protect the elves or anyone  they were meant to protect from abuse, they just cozy up with bribes from their abusers in a rotating door of corruption to maintain office. Huh, kind of like our own politics. Still haven't seen any evidence that the Chantry isn't corrupt at all, just assertions that they treat their votaries well despite what is clear as day is a falsehood.

Caring for the poor can be done by secular physicians, which would probably benefit from the lack of religous dogma hounding their science. Or do you enjoy being treated by a doctor who's prescription to you are leeches and this sugary drink? Don't forget to pay your tithe for nothing with a free religious trinket that does absolutely nothing. The Chantry are nothing but charlatans. Don't let your compassion for a few confuse you about the ills of a major institution's negative effect on all of society. Organizations are not the people, it's a hungry abstract beast thriving on your gullibility. Do I need persuade you to not let a thing keep hurting you?

 

Those orphans the Chantry raise. They grow up to be lyrium addled templars. You condone an orphanage that makes soldiers who's fate being nothing but a lyrium addled simpleton, their life consisting of being a thug or jailer. Even I can believe society can do better than that. The Chantry doesn't help the disenfranchise, they use them.

[Daerog]

They twisted the Chant to hate right now.

Caring for the poor can be done by secular physicians, which would probably benefit from the lack of religous dogma hounding their science. Or do you enjoy being treated by a doctor who's prescription to you are leeches and this sugary drink? Don't forget to pay your tithe for nothing with a free religious trinket that does absolutely nothing. The Chantry are nothing but charlatans. Don't let your compassion for a few confuse you about the ills of a major institution's negative effect on all of society. Organizations are not the people, it's a hungry abstract beast thriving on your gullibility.

Those orphans the Chantry raise. They grow up to be lyrium addled templars. You condone an orphanage that makes soldiers who's fate being nothing but a lyrium addled simpleton, their life consisting of being a thug or jailer. Even I can believe society can do better than that. The Chantry doesn't help the disenfranchise, they use them.

??
I won't bother to continue giving an alternate view on the Chantry in a thread not about it. However, I just want to correct some lore here.

The mother in Origins discourages the idea of blessed trinkets doing stuff for the knights. The Chantry has not shown to sell or give out trinkets.

The Chantry has not been shown to interfere with medicine or medical doctors or science. Only in magic does it force limitations. All else has been left alone.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The mother in Origins discourages the idea of blessed trinkets doing stuff for the knights. The Chantry has not shown to sell or give out trinkets.
 

Doesn't change the fact they peddle fantasies of earning favor from the Maker by abusing different races other than humans. Mother Petrice egged her templar lackey to murder innocent qunari and qunari sympathizers by validating it as the righteous work of the Maker which subsequently started the qunari invasion of kirkwall. This same mother petrice was personally promoted by Grand Cleric Elthina. They annointed a rivaini templar who derived pleasure from killing elves. They suppress knowledge of the mages' role in saving the ten year gathering and Ameridan's heritage. One abuse can be overlooked, but a multitude is a clear problem with their m.o. and a pattern

 

 

 

The Chantry has not been shown to interfere with medicine or medical doctors or science. Only in magic does it force limitations. All else has been left alone.

http://dragonage.wik...e_Mortal_Vessel Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection, but dedicated scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing. This book allows training that modestly increases the reader's base attributes. Who stigmatizes and criminalizes blood magic? The Chantry. The Chantry doesn't know what blood magic even is, and fear it so much that they stigmatize any study related to it.

[ModernAcademic]

Er, what? No, the Dalish are called Dalish precisely because they consider themselves remnants of the Dales, and as you say the Dales was created as a country for former elven slaves of the Imperium. Keeper Gisharel doesn't hide (several times) that the ancestors of the Dalish were slaves. Even their own motto contains a line ("never again shall we submit") that basically admits they submitted in the past.

 

Right. They submitted to Tevinter after having been slaves in Arlathan. To their elven masters. I admit, I forgot that. My mistake. Thanks.

 

And the human rulers of Orlais then freed them from a life of slavery by giving lands to them, without demanding terms or conditions in return...except that they, you know, helped in the event of a calamity, like, shall we say, A BLIGHT.

 

Indeed, elves are an ungrateful and unreliable people. No wonder they were exiled. Playing the victim card is hard when you leave people to die at the hands of darkspawn. Especially after those who trusted you played an important part in putting an end to your miserable life as a slave.

[Almostfaceman]

Right. They submitted to Tevinter after having been slaves in Arlathan. To their elven masters. human magister masters I admit, I forgot that. My mistake. Thanks.

 

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Corypheus remarks on any elf Inquisitor wearing the slave markings that the Tevinters put on their faces. Tevinter definitely enslaved elves.