24 réponses à ce sujet

[Yggdrasil]

O.K.  This is dumb for me to start this topic now because I haven't actually finished Trespasser.  I started a speed through it last night but had to stop at 1 a.m. since I had to be at work at 8 a.m.  I couldn't wait to find out the lore tidbits from this DLC, so between my preliminary speed run through and the DA wiki, I've got a general idea.  (Haven't actually experienced the final convo with Solas, however.)  I've also got burning questions I'm interested in hearing others' perspective on, but I apologize if some of this actually was answered in Trespasser.

 

I just can't wrap my head around some things:

 

1. What exactly was the world like before the Veil?  I know Solas describes it briefly in one of the earliest conversations, but how exactly did humans, dwarves, animals, etc. fit into the pre-Veil world?  Did humans even exist?  (I theorize that the kossith were the results of a cross-breeding program between elves and dragons, but that's a topic for another thread.)

 

Did the elves know what happened when they died?  We know the elven gods waged war and committed slaughter, so the pre-Veil world doesn't sound that different.  Lots more magical splendor, but basically a world of prevalent subjugation and violence.  It seems like Solas only values magic and knowledge since those seem to be the only thing that recommends the world he remembers compared to the one today, other than the obvious decline of the elves.

 

2. Why didn't Solas just let the Breach consume the world?  Isn't that what he wants to do?

 

3. Why did Solas freak out so much about the Grey Wardens and their plans to kill the remaining Old Gods?  I assumed that there was a relationship between the Old Gods and the elven gods because he seemed to take the Grey Warden mission and purpose so personally, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  Why does he have such contempt for the Grey Wardens when a world entirely corrupted by the Blight would be counter to his aims?  You'd think he'd enthusiastically support them.

 

4. I don't know where to begin with wondering where the titans and elven gods fit together.  They killed titans to make lyrium blooms, but why bother if magic was everywhere and accessible to everyone?

 

5. Finally, on a side note, what the hell happened to Arl Teagan?  I really didn't want to see the Fereldens acting like ungrateful jerks with the Orlesians seemingly being the reasonable ones.  I understand his basic perspective, especially since Fereldens are touchy about their sovereignty, but when Teagan mentioned banishing the Wardens ages ago, I wanted my Inquisitor to point out that the country was almost lost to Blight because they did so.  I thought his character ended up being to strident and disapproving.  Even in The Masked Empire he was measured and patient.

 

I'd appreciate any insight or theories people wish to share.

[Nimlowyn]

1) Outside of what Solas tells us and what we learn in Vir Dirthara, we do not know. Elves go into Uthenera weeping, and at least one elf declares s/he will "kill Fen'Harel". Solas mourns the world he was seeking to protect from the Evanuris. The way Solas talks about the Evanuris, they were not the world so much as a shackle and a blight (perhaps quite literally) upon it.

2) Presumably because this was not his breach; he was not in control. Also, he was not in his power at that point in time.

3) We do not know. This is one of my biggest questions.

4) It is unclear. It seems the Evanuris were mining their bodies for lyrium, that they unlocked the Blight somehow in their pursuit of the Titans. It may have been a magical world, but the Evanuris have been depicted, at least by Solas, as being ever hungry for more and more power.

5) People have different readings of Arl Teagan in Trespasser. I didn't have a problem with him. (Remember how he spoke to Loghain in DAO?) He is frank and upset, but can be courteous, depending on what you say to him. As ambassador, Arl Teagan represents his people, and in Trespasser they are very anxious. Many still remember the Orlesian occupation, and here is this incredibly powerful force within their borders with no clear, known goal. This makes them profoundly uncomfortable. Fereldans are also more direct, especially when compared with Orlesians. In my view, under the circumstances, and with whom he was speaking, Teagan had every reason to be as he was.

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks for your feedback.  I really need to finish the DLC and wring out its lore, but I had to record my initial questions.  My first set of questions trouble me the most because a pre-Veil world seems almost too alien to be allowed.

[Nimlowyn]

Thanks for your feedback.  I really need to finish the DLC and wring out its lore, but I had to record my initial questions.  My first set of questions trouble me the most because a pre-Veil world seems almost too alien to be allowed.

No problem! It is indeed difficult to imagine, particularly after In Hushed Whispers. I suppose an unveiled world in its early stages wouldn't be too dissimilar from that, except that it would be conducted and guided by Solas, not Corypheus. I imagine Solas knows a hell lot more of what he'd be doing than Corypheus did (who really was working with forces he didn't understand). Not like that makes it all that better. 

 

I think you'll find the last conversation with Solas very intriguing. He has such a personal stake in the lore he reveals, and it might just be the most important history in all the world. 

[Raizen10e]

Nimlowyn does an exceptional job explaining but just to add my .02 in....

2) Technically yes, but he wanted it to be on his terms and control it and since he thought it was supposed to kill Cory, I imagine it takes a GREAT deal of strength to pull off (which he said he lacked) Part of me also wonders tho if the Divine had anything to do with it tho... She was targeted specifically as a sacrifice so she must hold some significance to it, and maybe Solas knew if things went bad, the elf who murdered the divine would have caused some mass genocide of elves everywhere. 

3) It's interesting he would care, but the theories I always seem to keep seeing reappear note the fact that minus Mythal and Fen'Harel There were 7 left, which there also happen to be 7 archdemons known to exist, and each transfer their essence on to another body as a means of pseudo immortality. Make what you will of that and take it with a bit of salt but I personally see a few connections there.

5) At first I thought the same of both Ferelden and Teagan... but then I remembered in both Origins and 2, how "patriotic" everyone in Ferelden is, and it honestly makes sense they would be the ones to want to disband the Inquisition. First, lets look at the fact that you get most of your diplomatic and martial power from Orlais. You gained your influence in Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts from playing the grand game and either outplaying them all or forcing one side to oweing you their own title, which in turn they also provide troops when you needed to bolster your own. Ferelden doesnt have any trust for Orlais, and an "Independent power" based technically in Ferelden but on the border being so closely tied to Orlais who is just way too happy to provide you with MORE troops and support should make any nation a bit nervous. 2 years out from the breach being closed and you're still building an army? What for? Why do you have forts set up in my country? etc etc etc. Ferelden is a small nation who just sorta recently became independent then fought in a civil war which was took place during a blight, and then the mages and templars showed up and now this breach business, it's still too weak to defend itself properly so any sort of force appear is going to give them cause to be nervous. 

[PsychoBlonde]

3.) is more because Solas is a philosopher of sorts and he was ENRAGED because the wardens were reacting so stupidly from fear instead of thinking out consequences.  It might also be that Solas knows more about the Blight than he lets on--the Wardens assume that No archdemons = no more Blights, but consider this . . . the darkspawn dig frantically to unearth an Archdemon because the Archdemons CALL to them.  If there are no more archdemons then the darkspawn will stop digging.  WHAT. WILL. THEY. DO. THEN.?  I don't think he had any personal interest in the Archdemons per se (otherwise he ought to have shown a lot more interest in Morrigan's son, no?)  It's the same reason why he detests the Qunari so intensely--these kinds of philosophical defaults ****** him off.  Likewise how you can almost always earn positive points with him by asking questions or taking a more philosophical view of things.

[Gervaise]

I wouldn't have minded Teagan so much if there had been some indication he had been asking for Caer Bronach back and we had refused him.   I was incensed at his attitude when the ordinary people of Ferelden had been suffering, with the nobility doing nothing to help.   Caer Bronach was the haunt of bandits, but apparently Teagan hadn't been concerned enough to evict them.   Crestwood would have been overrun by undead but for the Inquisition.   The refugees in the Hinterlands surrounding Redcliffe Village would have been killed by mages/Templars or simply starved but for my actions.   Yet all Teagan did was run off to Denerim after being evicted from his Castle and then didn't return even after the mages were gone.  

 

Strangely enough I'd have been less upset if he'd brought up the retinue of Orlesian nobles that we used to approach the Templars in Champions of the Just.   I always thought it highly odd that there were no representative from Ferelden in our party.   Then again, for some peculiar reason the monarch of Ferelden had given title over Haven to an Orlesian.   Very strange considering no one even knew it existed until 10 years before.

 

Also he refers to an incident with the Grey Wardens that actually came about because the Banns asked Sophie Dryden to intervene against Arland, who they regarded as a tyrant.   She was wrong to compromise the Grey Wardens' neutrality but it was done at the request of the Banns, in other words people like Teagan.    Then only ten years before it was the Grey Wardens who saved his skin in Redcliffe as well as Ferelden itself from the Blight.  After that the Hero of Ferelden had been given charge of Vigil's Keep as an experiment in letting the Wardens have temporal power over a region, with the full approval of the monarch of Ferelden and in my case had made a very good job of it, saving both Amaranthine and the Keep itself for the intelligent darkspawn and ruling justly over the area.   This also appeared to have been forgotten in his likening our presence in Ferelden to that of the Wardens.    In some ways I was more upset about his manner of talking about the Wardens than his attitude to the Inquisition.  

[PsychoBlonde]

I figured Teagan had come slightly unhinged after getting kicked out of his own home by a Tevinter Magister.  I didn't really like how you had no really good way to deal with his request for "reparations" in the main game, too.  There needed to be an option other than "Screw you" or "Yes of course we're totally responsible for what the mages that YOU let take over Redcliffe did BEFORE WE EVEN GOT THERE".

 

Some people have kind of a dual nature and can come across *really* differently when they're just speaking for themselves or when they think they have to represent someone else's interests.

[thats1evildude]

The Breach was NOT what Solas wanted to accomplish. The spirits pulled through the Breach were twisted into demons, and it ultimately would have destroyed the world if allowed to grow.

Solas wanted to use the Anchor to enter the Fade and unmake the Veil, restoring the world to its "natural" state. Yes, this would have created chaos and probably resulted in the doom of mankind, but a new world would rise from the ashes with newly immortal elves.

[PsychoBlonde]

Well . . . that's what he THINKS would happen.  But it was pretty obvious that he had no idea that the world would look the way it did after his initial action, either, so who knows.

[Marika Haliwell]

I wouldn't have minded Teagan so much if there had been some indication he had been asking for Caer Bronach back and we had refused him.   I was incensed at his attitude when the ordinary people of Ferelden had been suffering, with the nobility doing nothing to help.   Caer Bronach was the haunt of bandits, but apparently Teagan hadn't been concerned enough to evict them.   Crestwood would have been overrun by undead but for the Inquisition.   The refugees in the Hinterlands surrounding Redcliffe Village would have been killed by mages/Templars or simply starved but for my actions.   Yet all Teagan did was run off to Denerim after being evicted from his Castle and then didn't return even after the mages were gone.  

 

Strangely enough I'd have been less upset if he'd brought up the retinue of Orlesian nobles that we used to approach the Templars in Champions of the Just.   I always thought it highly odd that there were no representative from Ferelden in our party.   Then again, for some peculiar reason the monarch of Ferelden had given title over Haven to an Orlesian.   Very strange considering no one even knew it existed until 10 years before.

 

Also he refers to an incident with the Grey Wardens that actually came about because the Banns asked Sophie Dryden to intervene against Arland, who they regarded as a tyrant.   She was wrong to compromise the Grey Wardens' neutrality but it was done at the request of the Banns, in other words people like Teagan.    Then only ten years before it was the Grey Wardens who saved his skin in Redcliffe as well as Ferelden itself from the Blight.  After that the Hero of Ferelden had been given charge of Vigil's Keep as an experiment in letting the Wardens have temporal power over a region, with the full approval of the monarch of Ferelden and in my case had made a very good job of it, saving both Amaranthine and the Keep itself for the intelligent darkspawn and ruling justly over the area.   This also appeared to have been forgotten in his likening our presence in Ferelden to that of the Wardens.    In some ways I was more upset about his manner of talking about the Wardens than his attitude to the Inquisition.  

This . I agree with you entirely

[Yggdrasil]

The Breach was NOT what Solas wanted to accomplish. The spirits pulled through the Breach were twisted into demons, and it ultimately would have destroyed the world if allowed to grow.

Solas wanted to use the Anchor to enter the Fade and unmake the Veil, restoring the world to its "natural" state. Yes, this would have created chaos and probably resulted in the doom of mankind, but a new world would rise from the ashes with newly immortal elves.

 

Your points about the Breach vs. what Solas wants makes sense, but what I really can't wrap my head around is what were the non-Elven races like and doing in the pre-Veil world?  Were all the Dwarves "soulless" like it says in that Temple of Mythal writing and therefore non-sentient?  Did humans not exist in Thedas before the Veil, and--if not--does that mean they're some kind of interdimensional travelers?  I just feel like a Veil-less world would be too different from our understanding of Thedas that I can't reconcile the two.  Maybe it will never be clarified, and we just have to take it on faith.  The games will focus on keeping it from happening and won't flesh out what exactly it means for the lore.

[Gervaise]

According to World of Thedas the elves made contact with the dwarves around 1400 years after the founding of Arlathan.   This was probably when the interaction with the Titans occurred, freeing the dwarves from their influence and allowing them to develop into what they've become in the present.   They were regarded as soulless before Mythal conquered the Titan because presumably they were in thrall to it.

 

As for humans they were said to arrive in northern Thedas from over the sea another 1500 years after the elves made contact with the dwarves but 250 years before the elves started to feel the Quickening.   Since the Quickening is them realising they are no longer mortal, this would suggest that humans arrived before Solas raised the Veil.   Also there is evidence of elves and humans living together and jointly worshipping the elven gods in DAO and the codex on Andruil says that she went hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void because she had grown tired of hunting mortals.   Since the elves were all meant to be immortal at that time, this would suggest she was either hunting dwarves or humans, or both.

[BigBrolly]

This one is so easy....

3) what the wardens want to do and what Solas did are basically the same thing....they made a questionable decision (raise the veil, search for old gods) with no idea what the consequences are....and now Solas sees the consequences of his decision and thinks the wardens are doing the same thing

He even mentions in conversation that "action isn't always better than inaction" In reference to the wardens plan...hence he thinks the wardens are nuts bc they aren't thinking about the consequences of their action.

Solas regrets his action in creating the veil

[Nimlowyn]

This one is so easy....

3) what the wardens want to do and what Solas did are basically the same thing....they made a questionable decision (raise the veil, search for old gods) with no idea what the consequences are....and now Solas sees the consequences of his decision and thinks the wardens are doing the same thing

He even mentions in conversation that "action isn't always better than inaction" In reference to the wardens plan...hence he thinks the wardens are nuts bc they aren't thinking about the consequences of their action.

Solas regrets his action in creating the veil

It's obvious Solas doesn't approve of the Warden's methods. However, the why at this juncture is pure speculation, because there is so much we don't know. We don't know the Old God's connection to the Blight, we don't know who or what the Old Gods are, we don't know what will happen when all the Old Gods are destroyed, we don't even know what the Blight truly is. It is implied that Solas does, because it is a history he lived. So there is a lot more to learn here besides a surface level "the Wardens aren't thinking things through". Solas' reaction is based on information we don't have. So, a meaningful answer to Yggdrasil's question is "We don't know". 

[Sah291]

2) Because his goal isn't just to take down the Veil, but to restore the elves, so it might have had more to do with stopping Corypheus from succeeding to become a god first and gaining control of the orb. 

[Aliceeverafter]

2) wait, didn't solas (fen'harel) create the veil to keep the elven gods out of the way? why would he want that opened to let them back? Keeping the veil keeps them locked away, or are they not an issue anymore (dead or whatever?)

 

um the breach is just a hole in the veil isn't it? i wasn't reading that closely : /

[Daerog]

1. My impression was the pre-veil world still had the material and immaterial "realms" that the elves learned to easily move through. There was just no "wall" and there was more interaction between the two realms. The elves settled on the "border" "between" the two, which would be cut off and mostly lost due to the creation of the Veil.

The protodwarves served the Titans that acted as stewards to the material realm. The elven gods were very powerful elves that gained enough power to no longer relate to regular elves. Maybe they became abominations like Hakkon?

If an elf died... which would probably be as shocking as a Titan dying, the soul would go to the immaterial plane (the Fade). All souls connected to the Fade cross to (or through) it.

2. Cory was trying to ascend to godhood, and if the Avvar and elven gods are considered to be gods, then this is achievable and would have wrecked Solas' hopes and dreams.

3. Killing all Old Gods would unleash the millions, if not billions, of darkspawn to the surface with none to control them. Ancient Tevinters like Cory and Archie only have limited influence. Thedas would be doomed along with all the elves.

Also, there is probably some empathy for ancient beings in there.

Edit: I want to point out that this only involved the Orlesian chapter due to their minds being corrupted by the Nightmare. Other Wardens were not involved.

4. Lyrium is not necessary for magic, but it is a major boost and allows practioners to do things they are unable to do without it. As the gods competed for power, the discovery of more power by harvesting the caretakers of the material realm would have been disasterous, so Mythal and the Dread Wolf opposed it.

5. People are complex and different people have different views. We see the political side of Teagon here and we saw his personal side in Origins and DA2. He was given an agenda and he pushed for it like any politician.

With all the dlc for Inquisition, the Fade just seems more and more like the Warp in Warhammer... just without the Chaos Gods and spirits adapting to thoughts rather than being born from them.

[MissOuJ]

3. Why did Solas freak out so much about the Grey Wardens and their plans to kill the remaining Old Gods?  I assumed that there was a relationship between the Old Gods and the elven gods because he seemed to take the Grey Warden mission and purpose so personally, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  Why does he have such contempt for the Grey Wardens when a world entirely corrupted by the Blight would be counter to his aims?  You'd think he'd enthusiastically support them.

 

Well, my personal theory is that that's because uncorrupted old gods are actually the elven gods (which is why Flemeth wants to preserve the old god soul by hitching Morrigan into your DA:O team and giving you the option to do the ritual) - or part of the Evanuris, and he knows killing them like the Warden's planned is not going to be that easy / is going to lead to a bigger catastrophe, or he thinks if he frees them he can persuade them to became his allies.

 

You can find an ancient elven script in the temple of Mythal and if you drink from the well you can read the codex entry. It's about someone "committing high treason" by stealing the "form reserved to the gods" (the codex entry is unspecific about which form it could be - it even says it could be one of many - but then again if Flemeth is Mythal and she can turn into a dragon, and drinking from her well can give people the ability to turn into a dragon...).

 

In addition, the Dalish lore has Fen'Harel sealing the Forgotten Ones (the Evanuris' rivals / malevolent gods which the elven Pantheon was at war with) "into the Abyss" - which goes pretty well with the Chantry's teachings about the Maker sealing the Old Gods deep underground. Then again the Forgotten Ones could also be the people against which the Evanuris fought to gain the status as "Kings/Gods", but, as DAI and Trespasser have pointed out, the Dalish lore got many things wrong and it's hard to draw any definitive conclusions based on it.

 

(Incidentally, I'm sort of convinced that Solas is at least partially "the Maker", since he created the Veil. And, well, I also have this crazy theory that he tried to control the Blight (which the Veil Fire runes in the deep roads in the Trespasser were referring IMO, but again I could be wrong) by shutting it into the "Golden City" - ie Fade's image/reflection/duplicate of Skyhold, which you can learn in the Trespasser used to belong to him - and which the Old Gods encouraged the ancient Tevinter magisters to enter because they thought they could be freed that way - but I have absolutely zero proof, and I'd be first to admit that it sounds absolutely bonkers).

 

Then again I could also be completely wrong, since Solas says that creating the Veil is what trapped the Evanuris - unless it's the lack of magic / mana that causes the Old Gods to sleep until they're tainted. Also, after playing DA:I and particularly the Trespasser, it seems like almost anything is possible, really: Dalish legend is at least partially wrong, it's also probably safe to say that Chantry history is almost certainly wrong in many aspects, and the whole world's "status quo" divide into physical world and the Fade is actually an unnaturally fabricated/engineered construct.

[Gervaise]

Actually Dalish lore was pretty accurate considering how long a period of time has passed from the events around the time of the Evanuris to the present day.   Also it seems clear that the Dalish are descended from the priesthood and nobles who served the Evanuris and held positions of privilege with them.   Hence their memories being of wise, benevolent leaders rather than cruel tyrants.     The only thing they really got wrong is that humans were responsible for their loss of immortality but I have posted elsewhere, there could be valid reasons for this, even if it is only the coincidence that the Veil was raised such a comparatively short time after the arrival of humans on the scene.

 

The dragons sleeping beneath the earth could have been trapped there by Fen'Harel (being the earthly form of the Forgotten Ones) or they could have simply gone into hibernation to await the return of their split soul other half (so dragon form of the Evanuris).    There is another possibility and that is they were in fact ancient elven priests of either the Creators or the Forgotten Ones, who were permitted to take dragon form by their masters and went into hibernation (uthenera) in that form.   These priests were Dreamers, so could travel the Fade and communicate with people on earth.  

 

According to Mihris in Masked Empire, the Dalish have a belief that from the Fade the ancients could see the whole world, they could tell their followers where their enemies would be and in what numbers and could send spirits from the Fade to aid them.    Felassan ridicules this belief, which is probably the best indication it was getting near the truth of the matter.      The ancient Tevinter legends claim that the old gods always spoke from the Fade.    Andraste also says the ancient gods spoke from their prisons.      So the ancient priests of the Evanuris (either Creator or Forgotten Ones could be encompassed by the word), decided to use humans in a long term plan to return their gods to them.   They didn't use elves because they couldn't be sure who they could trust and knew Fen'Harel was controlling many of them.    Instead they used the suitably ambitious humans, directing them towards suitable elven artefacts (the foci), encouraging them to ditch the Maker, teaching them blood magic (some scholars believe the Tevinter learned this from the elves) and generally working towards the moment when they could assault the Golden City where the priesthood believed their gods were trapped.     Except it turned out that something else entirely was contained there or alternatively Fen'Harel had booby trapped it, so they were instantly transported somewhere else.    Why was Flemeth interested in their soul if that was the case?    Well any ancient elven soul is likely a source of knowledge, if not power, but it is possible that the high priest of an Evanuris was also their twin soul/vessel to ensure their continued survival should someone attempt to kill them.    In Mythal's case I'm guessing that her twin soul was either killed simultaneously or cut off from her in some way, so she was reduced to being a wisp instead of being able to spawn again immediately.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Edit: I want to point out that this only involved the Orlesian chapter due to their minds being corrupted by the Nightmare. Other Wardens were not involved.

 

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. It was the Orlesian + the Fereldan wardens: the "southern" wardens as they're referred to in the game/epilogue slides. Before the destruction of Haven (in the quest that leads you to find Blackwall), Leliana makes it pretty clear that the Fereldan wardens have disappeared as well. Also, there's a whole fetch quest/series of codex entries in the Storm Coast that detail the Fereldan wardens leaving their posts to travel to somewhere else (presumably this somewhere is Adamant).When the Inquisitor must choose whether or not to exile the wardens, the choice is presented as the "southern wardens" and the epilogue slides confirm this. Also, if the Fereldan wardens were still in tact and not under Corephyus's/Clarel's bidding, why wouldn't Alistair/Loghain/Stroud just go to Amarantine instead of hiding out with Hawke in a cave?  

[Daerog]

Fereldan Wardens were an extension of the Orlesian Wardens. The bulk of Fereldan's Wardens came from the Orlesian chapter because you can't get to full Warden chapter strength in a few years starting from scratch. They depended on the Orlesians for all GW things.

While the Fereldan Wardens disappeared, I don't recall them being with the Orlesians specifically, but they could have joined. With their commander up and leaving on a personal quest, I don't know if another commander was named or if they took orders from the Orlesian commander.

Edit: I suppose it is more accurate to say "southern," but it was all done under the Orlesian commander. No Nevarrans, Marchers, or Antivans were a part of what went down in Inquisition.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Fereldan Wardens were an extension of the Orlesian Wardens. The bulk of Fereldan's Wardens came from the Orlesian chapter because you can't get to full Warden chapter strength in a few years starting from scratch. They depended on the Orlesians for all GW things.

While the Fereldan Wardens disappeared, I don't recall them being with the Orlesians specifically, but they could have joined. With their commander up and leaving on a personal quest, I don't know if another commander was named or if they took orders from the Orlesian commander.

Edit: I suppose it is more accurate to say "southern," but it was all done under the Orlesian commander. No Nevarrans, Marchers, or Antivans were a part of what went down in Inquisition.

 

It didn't even have to be a question of Clarel being the commander. If Coryephus dupped the Orlesian commander, he could easily do the same thing to the Fereldan commander. (IE: If the Fereldan commander was Nathaniel, I could see him eager to sacrifice himself for what he sees as a greater, noble cause to stop all future blights in order to redeem his family blah blah blah). 

[Daerog]

Ya, I can't see anyone other than Nathaniel being in command while the Warden is away.

[Statare]

 

1. What exactly was the world like before the Veil?  I know Solas describes it briefly in one of the earliest conversations, but how exactly did humans, dwarves, animals, etc. fit into the pre-Veil world?  Did humans even exist?  (I theorize that the kossith were the results of a cross-breeding program between elves and dragons, but that's a topic for another thread.)

 

Did the elves know what happened when they died?  We know the elven gods waged war and committed slaughter, so the pre-Veil world doesn't sound that different.  Lots more magical splendor, but basically a world of prevalent subjugation and violence.  It seems like Solas only values magic and knowledge since those seem to be the only thing that recommends the world he remembers compared to the one today, other than the obvious decline of the elves.

 

2. Why didn't Solas just let the Breach consume the world?  Isn't that what he wants to do?

 

3. Why did Solas freak out so much about the Grey Wardens and their plans to kill the remaining Old Gods?  I assumed that there was a relationship between the Old Gods and the elven gods because he seemed to take the Grey Warden mission and purpose so personally, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  Why does he have such contempt for the Grey Wardens when a world entirely corrupted by the Blight would be counter to his aims?  You'd think he'd enthusiastically support them.

 

4. I don't know where to begin with wondering where the titans and elven gods fit together.  They killed titans to make lyrium blooms, but why bother if magic was everywhere and accessible to everyone?

 

5. Finally, on a side note, what the hell happened to Arl Teagan?  I really didn't want to see the Fereldens acting like ungrateful jerks with the Orlesians seemingly being the reasonable ones.  I understand his basic perspective, especially since Fereldens are touchy about their sovereignty, but when Teagan mentioned banishing the Wardens ages ago, I wanted my Inquisitor to point out that the country was almost lost to Blight because they did so.  I thought his character ended up being to strident and disapproving.  Even in The Masked Empire he was measured and patient.

 

I'd appreciate any insight or theories people wish to share.

 

1) The pre-Veil world: Largely, it would be completely alien to us. It seems the best analogy is that it had 4 dimensions, instead of 3, and this is represented in the game as verticality- floating buildings, pocket dimensions, etc. One direction, up, leads to the extreme regions of the Fade, and the opposing, down, leads to the Titans/Abyss.

 

This world also affected the biology of the beings who lived then, especially the Elvhen, who were immortal, and who are implied in the codex entry from the library in Trespasser on the Forbidden ones to be able to transition from Elvhen to Spirit. And there is one entry that describes the Spirits as something to respect along with an elder Elvhen. Solas likely reveres Spirits because they might very well be the elders/deceased of the Elvhen. Also, Cole transitioning to human implies that Spirits may have been the pre-cursors to Elvhen, and Mythal being able to fragment herself, like we know Spirits can (wisps, Cole dialogues), it seems possible to me.

 

Uthenera seems to be the rite older/tired/curious Elvhen transitioned from physical beings into incorporeal beings. Various codex/dialogue in books (Masked Empire) deal with this. Falon'Din seems to concerned with this process and particularly the Spirit side of the Elvhen/Spirit dichotomy, as because in a world without the Veil, where the Fade is everywhere, he probably ruled over the "dead" the spirits, and not the entirety of the Fade. To me it seems that Elvhen who performed Uthenera could return to their Physical form without trauma or much change, where as an Elvhen who was killed probably was like Solas' spirit of Wisdom or Mythal, where they diminish and the trauma of the even can change who they were and they might very well become something else. But if you consider what happens with entities like Hakkon and Mythal, the powerful Elvhen, the Evanuris, probably had ways to anchor who they were and return more or less the same should they die.

 

2) Why did Solas not let the Breach destroy the world? Well. I think it has to do with A) Solas does not like suffering and the Breach was  a slow process that would have been traumatic for Spirits and Mortals, and  Solas implies the Spirits pulled through Breaches were warped into Demons in their confusion/trauma, and with the reverence Solas has for these beings and his apparent dislike for demons, means he probably knows that is bad for his end goal in the long run. Also, if my theory about the life-states of Elvhen is true, Solas knows that these spiritual entities would be so traumatized by the experience, his efforts to restore the Elvhen would be tainted by the experience. If the Elvhen were irreparably destroyed by Fen'Harel's Veil, it seems to me Solas' plan is dumb, he'd have no real way to bring his People back, but if there is a connection between Elvhen and Spirits, it might be more or less possible to repopulate the Elvhen and rebuild their society because the framework might already be there.

 

3) Why does Solas freak out about the Old God Eradication program of the Wardens? This is a thing we have very little evidence for. Likely Solas knows what would happen if they were all killed. As many have pointed out, this is probably worse, as the Darkspawn and the Taint would likely spread/grow/develop as a society, because they might become sentient instead of being largely the Thralls of imprisoned entities who rarely infringe upon the surface. It is also possible the Old Gods have something to do with the War the Evanuris conducted against the Titans, and since Fen'Harel's statue was always at Mythal's side in the Lyrium Mines of Trespasser, and Mythal, who Fen'Harel seems to revere, was the major god in the war with the Titans, it is likely Solas was anti-Titan. 

 

4) What was the war with the Titans about? This is being kept rather vague, as the Titans are mostly established through a couple of lines in two DLC and never brought up in the vanilla games. So. But it is implied by that nursery rime the Elven Qunari in the Lyrium mines is trying to remember that the agents of the Titans (Pillars of the Earth) were thralls of the Titans, and that Mythal (and probably Fen'Harel) did not like this. In another codex entry at the Temple of Mythal the pre-Dwarves are described as witless servants. Anyways. That could have just been a justification for a problematic war proposed by the "victors." I think it is likely that the Elvhen sought to shape the "Earth" to their whims, and the Titans, being the shapers of the Earth, were in their way and probably held the key for their desires (Lyrium). This has to do with the idea of making the earth blossom by killing the servants of the Titans. The Elven association with leaves and trees also makes me think the Elves might have been terraforming with green things and the Titans were primal forces of nature (laval, earthquakes, etc) that made it hard for the Elvhen colonial project. But this is all speculation. Likely Lyrium to the Evanuris is what made them disproportionately more powerful than other Elvhen, crowning them as gods, and I bet is somehow tied with the thing they would do that would destroy the world.

 

5) Arl Teagan- I know. It was a rather strange development of his character. The only thing I can think is that the Inquisition was mostly connected with Orlais and Western Ferelden, and Arl Teagan may have felt the Inquisition, in the long run, could spell new occupation of Ferelden by foreigners.