35 réponses à ce sujet

[Shreav]

I just finished the game and my gut feeling is that...  The Black City must be Arlathan?

 

Your thoughts?

[Nimlowyn]

I've suspected as much, though at the same time, it seems a bit neat and clean and obvious, so I'm prepared to be surprised. I try to pay close attention to Solas' reaction to it in the Fade...he seems wistful.

[Taki17]

I don't think so. Arlathan was destroyed by the tevinters, and by destroyed, I mean they razed it to the ground using summoned demons and dragon thralls, its ruins are still in the Arlathan forest.

 

According to the lore, the tevinters used all of their lyrium and thousands of slaves' blood to send seven people to the fade phisically, I can't imagine they could've done the same with an entire city.

 

The elves believe that their gods are in the Black City, locked away, but Arlathan fell long after the veil had been constructed and the elves were mortals already. The old gods approached the tevinters only after the veil was erected, and their teachings of blood magic were what gave Tevinter the power to conquer Thedas.

 

This does not rule out the possibility of the black city being an elven city (maybe even the very first before the veil, considering how the elves, the fade, spirits and magic are closely related), but it is most definitely not Arlathan.

[Shreav]

I don't think so. Arlathan was destroyed by the tevinters, and by destroyed, I mean they razed it to the ground using summoned demons and dragon thralls, its ruins are still in the Arlathan forest.

 

According to the lore, the tevinters used all of their lyrium and thousands of slaves' blood to send seven people to the fade phisically, I can't imagine they could've done the same with an entire city.

 

The elves believe that their gods are in the Black City, locked away, but Arlathan fell long after the veil had been constructed and the elves were mortals already. The old gods approached the tevinters only after the veil was erected, and their teachings of blood magic were what gave Tevinter the power to conquer Thedas.

 

This does not rule out the possibility of the black city being an elven city (maybe even the very first before the veil, considering how the elves, the fade, spirits and magic are closely related), but it is most definitely not Arlathan.

 

But from the game we find out that the city of Arlathan simply vanished.  There are no ruins.

[Taki17]

But from the game we find out that the city of Arlathan simply vanished.  There are no ruins.

I don't rembember this part ever being said or written, although I might be wrong.

 

The fact that Arlathan fell after the veil had been constructed and the tevinters would have had a hard time sending an entire city to the fade still stands though. And it is most definitely wasn't the elves who sent the city to the fade, considering  how at the time only Solas knew how the veil worked.

[Ranadiel Marius]

I don't rembember this part ever being said or written, although I might be wrong.

The fact that Arlathan fell after the veil had been constructed and the tevinters would have had a hard time sending an entire city to the fade still stands though. And it is most definitely wasn't the elves who sent the city to the fade, considering how at the time only Solas knew how the veil worked.

I believe it has been established for a while that there are no known ruins corresponding to Arlathan. The TI claim puts the reason as their mighty magics caused the Earth to swallow the city.

However we know from Abeles (that is the ancient elvhe's name right?) that Arlathan fell from Elvhen or Elven infighting and not from TI invading (they just took the remnants). So it being the Black City is not impossible if the infighting was Evanuris verus Forgotten Ones, but is unlikely if it was post-veil infighting.

[Nimlowyn]

It's also possible that it is not all of Arlathan, but a section of it. Perhaps even an Evanuris stronghold, like Skyhold was to Solas.

In the Fade during Here Lies the Abyss, Cole says, "They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell." http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Black_City

There is also the Whispers Written in Red Lyrium: "We are here/We have waited/We have slept/We are sundered/We are crippled/We are polluted/We endure/We wait/We have found the dreams again/We will awaken". http://dragonage.wik...n_in_Red_Lyrium

It seems to me like the Black City may be Arlathan, a broken section of Arlathan, or a stronghold of the Evanuris. I suspect Solas trapped the Evanuris there with the Taint they had unleashed in their efforts against the Titans. I would be very surprised if the Black City wasn't elven at all.

Edit: Although, it is difficult to imagine Solas would respond as he does if this were the case. "There it is, the Black City...almost close enough to touch." Almost close enough to touch. Unless he had to seal them in a place he was really fond of, or something.

[Andromelek]

I believe it's more likely that The Black City is Banalhan, aka The Void, and what's sealed there might be the Forgotten Ones.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

It is also possible that

Spoiler

Arlathan is like the Vir Dithara, a place so dependant on the presence of the Fade in Thedas' natural physical reality that when Solas cast the Veil between them, Arlathan was broken badly enough to vanish into the Fade.

[Aren]

I don't think Arlathan has anything to do with the black/golden city

Wasn't described somewhere that the Evanuris feared the power of the golden city or something of the sort?

[Ranadiel Marius]

I believe it's more likely that The Black City is Banalhan, aka The Void, and what's sealed there might be the Forgotten Ones.

Eh we know that at least one of the Forgotten Ones lived on the Unchanging World, so I think it more likely the Void is here rather than in the deep Fade.

I don't think Arlathan has anything to do with the black/golden city
Wasn't described somewhere that the Evanuris feared the power of the golden city or something of the sort?

I don't recall that? Even if so, that doesn't rule out the possibility of it being connected to them. I mean they had to hide the "Sun" someplace.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

If Arlathan and The Black City are related, then at most I would say the Black City is the part of Arlathan that was made strictly by will made manifest. The part of it that really was stone and wood was what Tevinter destroyed but, the parts that had to have the fade or would not exist at all might be the Black City.

[BansheeOwnage]

It's also possible that it is not all of Arlathan, but a section of it. Perhaps even an Evanuris stronghold, like Skyhold was to Solas.

In the Fade during Here Lies the Abyss, Cole says, "They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell." http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Black_City

There is also the Whispers Written in Red Lyrium: "We are here/We have waited/We have slept/We are sundered/We are crippled/We are polluted/We endure/We wait/We have found the dreams again/We will awaken". http://dragonage.wik...n_in_Red_Lyrium

It seems to me like the Black City may be Arlathan, a broken section of Arlathan, or a stronghold of the Evanuris. I suspect Solas trapped the Evanuris there with the Taint they had unleashed in their efforts against the Titans. I would be very surprised if the Black City wasn't elven at all.

Edit: Although, it is difficult to imagine Solas would respond as he does if this were the case. "There it is, the Black City...almost close enough to touch." Almost close enough to touch. Unless he had to seal them in a place he was really fond of, or something.

Well, he does want to completely wipe out the Evanuris as far as I know, so his tone might be reflecting that they're close, if that's where they are.

 

Anyway, I totally had the same thoughts about the Taint and the Evanuris, and that it could be just a section of the city I forgot about those red lyrium whispers. Interesting.

 

It is also possible that

Spoiler

Arlathan is like the Vir Dithara, a place so dependant on the presence of the Fade in Thedas' natural physical reality that when Solas cast the Veil between them, Arlathan was broken badly enough to vanish into the Fade.

That doesn't mean it's not Arlathan though, since Solas reminisces about the grandeur of the magical architecture of Arlathan when you ask.

[Dai Grepher]

I doubt they are the same. The Black City is unchanging because it is real, constant. The elvhen structures existed in the Crossroads or in the Real. They would not have existed in the Fade. They either would have fallen to the earth, or they would have remained within the Crossroads dimension.

The current evidence suggests that the city was once Golden, then turned Black. It was likely the Magisters Sidereal that triggered this.

This further indicates that the city is real, because real magisters changed it. Spirits can't change real things with thoughts alone. The elvhen created structures with magic. When the magic was cut off, the structures crumbled.

So it makes little sense that the Golden City somehow survived intact if it was elvhen-made. It turning black also doesn't make sense if it was elvhen-made.

The story of the Maker cursing the Magisters makes sense, because that means the Maker caused the change to take place. In absence of the Maker as a source, then there must have been some other source that caused the change. The only possible alternative I can think of is some other elvhen, likely an evanuris. Elgar'nan perhaps.

The texts in the Temple of Mythal show a formless shifting mass with many eyes, so maybe that's Elgar'nan's spirit form. Maybe he is in the Black City. Maybe he caused the taint when the Magisters tried to invade his sanctum. Maybe the Old Gods were trying to free Elgar'nan, and that's why they sent the Magisters there to open the doors. But maybe Elgar'nan was too angry to see that it was his chance to escape and he lashed out with anger. Maybe that's what the depiction in the Vir Dirthara shows as the black mass with red eyes in the center of the Fade depiction.

Of course this theory is contradicted. Why would anyone think the city was golden in this case? And how is Elgar'nan sealed away by the Veil if he resides in the Black City? Certainly he could just exit the Fade as the Forbidden Ones have done already. The impression I got was that Solas' trick only cut of each evanuris who was residing in their own pocket dimension within the Crossroads. Locked behind mirrors, as Cole eludes.

So personally, I go with the Maker theory.

[Akiza]

It was the Maker domain nothing elvhen to see here.

Elves,Elves everywhere

[Kantr]

I just finished the game and my gut feeling is that...

 

*spoilers*The Black City must be Arlathan*spoilers*

 

Your thoughts?

Y'know this is the spoiler forum and that is a pretty popular theory so you didn't need to hide that. Also spoiler tags are done via [spoiler] /spoiler]

[Shreav]

Y'know this is the spoiler forum and that is a pretty popular theory so you didn't need to hide that. Also spoiler tags are done via [spoiler] /spoiler]

You are correct.  I realized after I posted, but I got lazy and didn't bother to fix it.

[ArcaneEsper]

I have such mixed feelings about Arlathan = Black City. Like on the one hand it would be so cool and we'd have at least two less questions to ask. But then also it feels kinda meh when everything supernatural and otherworldly just comes back to being an old elven thing. Where is the love for Dwarven and Qunari lore.

[Shreav]

I have such mixed feelings about Arlathan = Black City. Like on the one hand it would be so cool and we'd have at least two less questions to ask. But then also it feels kinda meh when everything supernatural and otherworldly just comes back to being an old elven thing. Where is the love for Dwarven and Qunari lore.

I feel that we've just begun learning about dwarven and qunari lore.  And to be honest, I would be intrigued to see and learn more of it in future games.  Without a doubt, they're lore is intrinsically linked to elven lore.  And even learning more about elves...I mean this is new territory.  Usually, I would suspect, that story-tellers keep such lore deliberately vague and untold.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't think the Qunari have much lore. The Qunari theme seems to be the current society it presents with all its triumphs and flaws.

[Reznore57]

I don't think the Qunari have much lore. The Qunari theme seems to be the current society it presents with all its triumphs and flaws.

 

Well Koslun knew about the Old Gods , so at one point they will have to explain how a prophet in some far away land learned about those dragons and also felt the need to write about it.

 

They also had rumors about Calenhad dealing with a witch of the wilds , it happened almost 100 years before the Qunari arrived in Thedas.

 

They also had a different type of society before the Qun , and it seems the Qunari were exhiled or fleed members of their races.

Also they are a bit extreme about magic , it might be motivated by some magical cataclysm of their own.

Oh and also that supposed link to dragons.

[Dai Grepher]

^But most of that is not Qunari lore. It's Tevinter, Ferelden, and Kossith lore.

The alleged link to dragons is also current lore, and as far as its possible historical origin, again it is alleged that Tevinter was responsible for that.

As for hating magic, don't most people hate magic?

[Gervaise]

I don't believe the settlement in Arlathan Forest that Tevinter destroyed was anything like the original city of Arlathan for the simple reason that it would have been broken apart when Solas raised the Veil, just as everything else was.      What the Tevinter destroyed was likely some remnant, like the Temple of Mythal in the Arbor Wilds, only bigger and with a larger population of post-Veil elves, probably tending to the needs of the ancient ones still in uthenera.     Even then the reason the Tevinter ended up sinking it into the ground was because after 6 years of siege they were still no nearer to conquering it and the war was becoming too great a drain on their resources.     

 

It is entirely possible that the Golden City in the Fade was a reflection or remnant of the true Arlathan, left there when the Veil sundered it from Thedas.   The elves believe it was the seat of their gods, just as the Tevinter Magisters believed it was the home of theirs.

[Dai Grepher]

But if the City is part of Arlathan, then why is it in the Fade? It should only be in the Crossroads and/or in the Real world.

[Gervaise]

Why should it not have been in all three?    The Crossroads was like a bridge between the two.   Morrigan said how it was not actually the Fade but very close to it.     To be honest we have no idea how the world of the elves would have looked pre-Veil.    Flemeth/Mythal has her own little pocket realm in the Fade and Mythal was responsible for the construction of major cities, probably including Arlathan (though she may have had help with that) so it may well have spanned all three planes of existence.   Alternatively it may have originally been outside the Fade but some sort of warping of the Veil meant that part of the city ended up in it.    Really it is hard to know exactly what the Veil is meant to be now, since so many different ideas have been put forward by people in Thedas.   

 

Another possibility is that the Golden City was the residual memory in the Fade of what Arlathan once looked like in Thedas, kept that way through the mind of a Dreamer (Solas?), just as we visited what looked like Haven through the actions of Solas.   When the Magisters entered the Golden City, it broke the illusion and instead they encountered what was really there and it had been shut away in the Fade deliberately to stop the corruption from spreading.   Unfortunately the Magisters breaking in did precisely that; released the corruption on the world, starting with them.      There is definitely something strange about the Black City, considering even the most powerful of demons shunned it.