54 réponses à ce sujet

[Guanxii]

Shockwave on a vanguard... what a waste of 21 points. Probably the last thing I would pick after pull as you only need 3 levels on it but honestly skip both and go for Lash as it smokes both of em for recharge speed, priming and detonating and crowd control and mêlée.

 

Biotic Charge.

Dark Channel - it's like having an invisible adept following you around (recharge free explosion chains)

Nova

Warp Ammo - dark channel makes it godly. This is for the DPS.

Cluster Grenades or Flare

Lash or Stasis

Passive

Fitness

Barrier (if it's greatly improved from me3) or Phasic Ammo.

 

You don't need anything else. Stasis is nice with grenades. Annihilation Field would be too crutch and works better on Sentinels.

 

What would be better mechanically from a gameplay perspective for people who want an AF like experience on a vanguard would be to combine Reave and Poison Strike into a new vanguard power as an alternative to Biotic Charge. Call it Biotic Strike and have it prime multiple targets for biotic damage instead of poison damage (and biotic explosions too) while replenishing health/barrier over time from primed targets like me2 reave. That with the movement of Poison Strike would be even better than Biotic Charge for Platinum level vanguards and glass canon builds on lower difficulties.

[Joseph Warrick]

Please fix the radius evolution for shockwave, other than that Vanguard was amazing in ME3.

 

I also really liked the shockwave vanguard in ME2, like a heavy shock trooper that sacrifices charge for barriers and melee. It's another way to get in close quarters and shoot point blank.

[SKAR]

1. A kind of changed Biotic Charge: changed pretty much the way Tali Vasir had it in the ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker. I.e. extremely fast movement across the battlefield with or without targeting an enemy, in any direction. Like if you want to target someone - good, it will be good ol' Biotic Charge from ME3, with the only button needed to be pressed. If you don't target anything - two buttons are needed: direction button (one of the WSAD) + number button, to which the BC is bound (I speak in the PC terminology, thus - consolliers, turn on your imagination). 3D movement (i.e. moving upwards/downwards) can be easily enabled by, say, clicking the LMB on the point you want to land, holding the LMB + pressing the BC button. Such a charge MUST be accompanied by a decent shockwave, afftcting the targets, say, 3 meters left and right from the trajectory (like current Poison Strike, just with sending the targets fly (lesser ones) or staggering them (bigger ones) instead of poisoning).
2. Heavy armor suit (i.e. being an armored target) as an option at least. You read right - armor + barriers.
3. Some ability for gaining the extra protection - be it Barrier, or Biotic Protector (that Nyreen's or Cerberus Phantoms' "lila bulb"), or Biotic Focus,
4. Some option for range combat - like Phase Disruptor, or good ol' Warp, or Biotic Orbs, or Dark Channel, or/and grenades - lift or warp ones.
5. Powerful and rapid-fire shotguns - at least semi-auto ones, preferably with burst-fire or even full auto option (current Doom one, AA-12, Russian Saiga/Vepr are fairly good examples).

N7 pirahna.

[SKAR]

Shockwave on a vanguard... what a waste of 21 points. Probably the last thing I would pick after pull as you only need 3 levels on it but honestly skip both and go for Lash as it smokes both of em for recharge speed, priming and detonating and crowd control and mêlée.

Biotic Charge.
Dark Channel - it's like having an invisible adept following you around (recharge free explosion chains)
Nova
Warp Ammo - dark channel makes it godly. This is for the DPS.
Cluster Grenades
Lash or Stasis
Passive
Fitness
Barrier if it's greatly improved from me3

You don't need anything else. Stasis is nice with grenades. Annihilation Field would be too crutch and works better on Sentinels.

What would be better from a balance and gameplay perspective for people who want an AF like experience on a vanguard would be to combine Reave and Poison Strike into a new vanguard power as an alternative to Biotic Charge. Call it Biotic Strike and have it prime multiple targets for biotic damage instead of poison damage (and biotic explosions too) while replenishing health/barrier over time from primed targets like me2 reave. That with the movement of Poison Strike would be even better than Biotic Charge for Platinum level vanguards and glass canon builds on lower difficulties.

flare.

[Guanxii]

A kind of changed Biotic Charge: changed pretty much the way Tali Vasir had it in the ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker. I.e. extremely fast movement across the battlefield with or without targeting an enemy, in any direction.

Heard of Poison Strike? Excellent alternative to Biotic Charge when you get your head around it. Double Dash is trash thou - avoid that.

 

flare.

 

Flare is fantastic if you go with power damage and bonus power on charge and /or maxing out passive for power damage and go with combo master or whatever they call it on the adept but otherwise the recharge speed would get a lot of inexperience players killed and you do have to sacrifice weapon damage. I do take it quite often but usually with Dark Channel because if you have Dark Channel going on in the background at least you can continue to nova bomb and use grenades for a time until you get your recharge back so that offsets some pretty dangerous situations if you take bonus power so only get 50% barrier replenished, get swarmed and you can't charge.

 

Great for bosses as well. I do love being able to wipe out an Atluses shields immediately having already applied  Dark Channel for piercing armor damage and get the biotic explosion and the bonuses for your warp ammo shotgun blasts. I do think if given the choice between Flare and Phasic Ammo for dealing with shields I think Phasic Ammo would be more useful for vanguards in general, especially beginners and it would fit the class gameplay style better.

[MyDamnAlterEgo]

N7 pirahna.

 

Na-ah... it's neither full auto nor has burst fire. Besides it - I wouldn't call it "powerful".

 

Heard of Poison Strike? Excellent alternative to Biotic Charge when you get your head around it. Double Dash is trash thou - avoid that.

 

For sure, kept it in mind while writing my rather long post :-)) But what I'd like to have is somewhat different:

 

a. if no enemy is targeted - hold down the number button to which BC is bound + eigher press one of WSAD or left-click with mouse on desired location;

b. if an enemy unit is targeted - it goes pretty much like the good ol' BC;

c."pretty much like" (not "exactly") means, that the very movement is accompanied by a kind of shockwave.

[capn233]

Charge should stay more or less the same as in ME2 or 3.  Can dump any time dilation as far as I am concerned, but I wouldn't be offended if it stayed.

 

Nova needs to be gone, or turned into an evolution of Shockwave.  The I-frames should be drastically reduced in length if not outright removed.

 

If we get a decent combo system, and can get back to some fun "physics combos" (eg pull - charge in ME2) Vanguard will be pretty cool.

[Guanxii]

Na-ah... it's neither full auto nor has burst fire. Besides it - I wouldn't call it "powerful".

 

 

For sure, kept it in mind while writing my rather long post :-)) But what I'd like to have is somewhat different:

 

a. if no enemy is targeted - hold down the number button to which BC is bound + eigher press one of WSAD or left-click with mouse on desired location;

b. if an enemy unit is targeted - it goes pretty much like the good ol' BC;

c."pretty much like" (not "exactly") means, that the very movement is accompanied by a king of shockwave.

 

So more control over B.C. rather than a new power per say which would be cool. Similarly to go with that I'd like a biotic Turian Jet boots movement style which gives you a vertical glide of different height dependant on how long you hold down the action button/key.

 

I'd fear if they modified Biotic Charge in this way it would be at the expense of Poison Strike which is very promising. I actually prefer it on Platinum having gotten used to it. The fee aim movement, the priming and detonating by travelling through enemies is much safer and doing huge d.o.t. while constantly moving is much more effective.

 

Nova needs to be gone, or turned into an evolution of Shockwave.  The I-frames should be drastically reduced in length if not outright removed.

I-frames would be unnecessary if the Vanguard had appropriate health and barrier. I absolutely love half nova because it's got incredible synergy with Biotic Charge. Shockwave does not, it's for casters and is pretty lame on a vanguard because if you're using shockwave, you're not charging and those points would be better spent on passive weapon damage in all honesty.

 

​Shockwave has never worked well with Charge which is why we have Nova but in conjunction with a reave-like Poison Strike it would be worth having instead of Nova.

[capn233]

I-frames would be unnecessary if the Vanguard had appropriate health and barrier.

Right. Which you do in ME2 and 3, and you probably will in MEA.
 

I absolutely love half nova because it's got incredible synergy with Biotic Charge.

It is poor design because it sidesteps the cooldown mechanic. You have on-demand 1.5s i-frames for free in the current iteration. Makes no sense.
 

Shockwave does not, it's for casters and is pretty lame on a vanguard because if you're using shockwave, you're not charging and those points would be better spent on passive weapon damage in all honesty.

Obviously shockwave should be improved for MEA. Doesn't make sense to assume it would stay identical to the ME3 counterpart. Switching a useless evolution to one that makes shockwave propogate in 360* with reduced range could improve the power on the Adept as well.
 

​Shockwave has never worked well with Charge which is why we have Nova but in conjunction with a reave-like Poison Strike it would be worth having instead of Nova.

 

Yes, no cooldown power works well with Charge because Vanguard is a one-trick wonder in terms of design. Nova takes the poor design a step further by pseudo-emulating Tac-Cloak's free power ability (another design blunder).

[MyDamnAlterEgo]

As for shockwave for Vanguards - it could be viable, but not in it's current state.

 

I'd propose the following changes to it:

 

a. it should cost certain amount of barriers instead of having a cooldown - i. e. use a mechanic similar to the Phase Disruptor one;

b. it should have a sectoral (aka angular) distribution pattern instead of current linear one;

c. it should be way more powerful. ME2 level would pass;

d. it could both prime the targets for biotic explosions and trigger the latter.

e. another option - it could lift the targets (except for armored ones) and prime them.

 

I.e.  - in the nutshell - could work like a directional biotic explosion.

[Guanxii]

Right. Which you do in ME2 and 3, and you probably will in MEA.
 

It is poor design because it sidesteps the cooldown mechanic. You have on-demand 1.5s i-frames for free in the current iteration. Makes no sense.
 

Obviously shockwave should be improved for MEA. Doesn't make sense to assume it would stay identical to the ME3 counterpart. Switching a useless evolution to one that makes shockwave propogate in 360* with reduced range could improve the power on the Adept as well.
 

 

Yes, no cooldown power works well with Charge because Vanguard is a one-trick wonder in terms of design. Nova takes the poor design a step further by pseudo-emulating Tac-Cloak's free power ability (another design blunder).

 

Clearly the nova animation is too long and leaves you too vulnerable to damage in cqc especially with full-on nova shield depletion right after a charge. Vanguard is unlike any other class in that you aren't really supposed to use cover and consequently your barrier will be gone 50% of the time or more during long cooldowns meaning without Nova's I-frames or Combat Roll the class would be unplayable. You can't even nova if your shields are too depleted. You might see implementation of I-frames as poor design and an exploit but it still requires skill and situational awareness to manage the barrier and cooldown mechanics in active combat using these elements. You could remove I-frames if the Human vanguard had the barrier of the Turian or Batarian imo but it's exhilarating fun as it is so on some level it works.

 

In return for depleted shields bypassing the cooldown is a fair trade-off imo. Nova has always felt like it should be a Melee ability to me anyway which would bypass cool-down entirely under the present system. ME3 multiplayer version of shockwave is pretty great on the human adept I would put it on par with Throw and I wouldn't change much of anything about it because the range, width and explosion damage/radius feels about right to me. Rather than remake the power to fit the vanguard class I'd rather they just kept it as it was for the adept and give the vanguard biotic slash instead and tailor that to vanguard.

[capn233]

As for shockwave for Vanguards - it could be viable, but not in it's current state.

 

I'd propose the following changes to it:

 

a. it should cost certain amount of barriers instead of having a cooldown - i. e. use a mechanic similar to the Phase Disruptor one;

b. it should have a sectoral (aka angular) distribution pattern instead of current linear one;

c. it should be way more powerful. ME2 level would pass;

d. it could both prime the targets for biotic explosions and trigger the latter.

e. another option - it could lift the targets (except for armored ones) and prime them.

 

I.e.  - in the nutshell - could work like a directional biotic explosion.

 

Yes it needs improving.  Most of the improvement could come from altering the geometry, which is actually a series of cones.

 

I am not in favor of combo proliferation though, that is a major problem with ME3 such that it mostly reduces meaningful distinctions between the powers.  Now if Shockwave was one of the very few powers that could actually detonate a biotic combo, that might just be decent.

 

Clearly the nova animation is too long and leaves you too vulnerable to damage in cqc especially with full-on nova shield depletion right after a charge. Vanguard is unlike any other class in that your barrier will be gone 50% of the time or more during cool-down - you either Nova or Combat Roll or your dead. You can't even nova if your shields are too depleted. You might see implementation of I-frames as poor design and an exploit but it still requires skill and situational awareness to manage the barrier and cooldown mechanics in active combat. It's balanced and it's exhilarating fun so on some level it works.

 

In return for depleted shields bypassing the cooldown is a fair trade-off imo. Nova has always felt like it should be a Melee ability to me anyway which would bypass cool-down entirely under the present system. ME3 multiplayer version of shockwave is pretty great on the human adept I would put it on par with Throw and I wouldn't change much of anything about it because the range, width and explosion damage feels about right to me. Rather than remake the power to fit the vanguard class I'd rather they just kept it as it was for the adept and give the vanguard biotic slash instead and tailor that to vanguard.

 

I agree that the nova animation is overly long and idiotic, but I disagree that you need 1.5s of i-frame per Nova in the current form or state of the game, especially when Half Blast exists and Charge cooldown is basically the same length as total i-frames at 200% PRS (3.08s on HV).  Nevermind that Charge is granting 50% DR for 3s 4s.

 

There is hardly ever a reason not to Nova directly post Charge, except when you can't Charge again afterwards.  Practically the worst that can happen is that something staggers you out of the Nova during I-frame.

 

Disagree on current iteration of Shockwave.  Besides the geometry being ******-poor, it has evolutions that do not work (at best), and others that are superfluous.  It is only marginally better than Throw if you can manage to get two primed targets near each other, without any other targets in the way to waste the minuscule target cap (2).  But given that it has short range and twice the cooldown, you would hope that it offered some advantage over Throw in at least a couple situations.

[Guanxii]

Yes it needs improving.  Most of the improvement could come from altering the geometry, which is actually a series of cones.

 

I am not in favor of combo proliferation though, that is a major problem with ME3 such that it mostly reduces meaningful distinctions between the powers.  Now if Shockwave was one of the very few powers that could actually detonate a biotic combo, that might just be decent.

 

 

I agree that the nova animation is overly long and idiotic, but I disagree that you need 1.5s of i-frame per Nova in the current form or state of the game, especially when Half Blast exists and Charge cooldown is basically the same length as total i-frames at 200% PRS (3.08s on HV).  Nevermind that Charge is granting 50% DR for 3s.

 

There is hardly ever a reason not to Nova directly post Charge, except when you can't Charge again afterwards.  Practically the worst that can happen is that something staggers you out of the Nova during I-frame.

 

Disagree on current iteration of Shockwave.  Besides the geometry being ******-poor, it has evolutions that do not work (at best), and others that are superfluous.  It is only marginally better than Throw if you can manage to get two primed targets near each other, without any other targets in the way to waste the minuscule target cap (2).  But given that it has short range and twice the cooldown, you would hope that it offered some advantage over Throw in at least a couple situations.

 

The level 6 cooldown evolution could be superfluous if they gave it a reasonable cooldown in the first place and lifting shockwave is rather pointless. I would like having more control over the direction. e.g. being able to arc it so you can more effectively target multiple targets. They could maybe add an evolution where they up the number of b.e. detonations to three and tone down the radius/damage (of each one) a little. Perhaps they could make cooldown and force pressure sensitive.

[Xen]

The ideal one wouldn't exist at all. Then previously vanguard playing scrubs could potentially survive at least the first 10 seconds of each wave before getting sync killed.

 

On the downside, there'd be a smaller audience looking at my arse while I carry them. Add another Krogan Spectator class to compensate. 

[Guanxii]

Maybe it's your fine arse jiggling getting everyone sync killed. I prefer voluses.

[capn233]

The level 6 cooldown evolution could be superfluous if they gave it a reasonable cooldown in the first place and lifting shockwave is rather pointless. I would like having more control over the direction. e.g. being able to arc it so you can more effectively target multiple targets. They could maybe add an evolution where they up the number of b.e. detonations to three and tone down the radius/damage (of each one) a little. Perhaps they could make cooldown and force pressure sensitive.

 

Cooldowns are pretty short in the game, that's the real reason recharge evos aren't very valuable (related to the proliferation of weapons that are too powerful for their weight).  Lifting Shockwave is a little gimmicky, but it does prime.  I was mostly thinking of Radius, which harms the power; and Reach, which is largely not needed in MP and is way less valuable than the opposing combo multiplier.

 

The hard count on the number of impact units has a lot to do with the hardware, so I would expect even MP powers to go up in impact counts for MEA.

 

In more general terms I want them to move away from classes that are one-trick wonders.  Getting rid of exceptions to the cooldown paradigm is a start, especially when they aren't accessible to all of the classes.  Then you can focus on actually bringing parity to the various powers.

[Guanxii]

Cooldowns are pretty short in the game, that's the real reason recharge evos aren't very valuable (related to the proliferation of weapons that are too powerful for their weight).  Lifting Shockwave is a little gimmicky, but it does prime.  I was mostly thinking of Radius, which harms the power; and Reach, which is largely not needed in MP and is way less valuable than the opposing combo multiplier.

 

The hard count on the number of impact units has a lot to do with the hardware, so I would expect even MP powers to go up in impact counts for MEA.

 

In more general terms I want them to move away from classes that are one-trick wonders.  Getting rid of exceptions to the cooldown paradigm is a start, especially when they aren't accessible to all of the classes.  Then you can focus on actually bringing parity to the various powers.

 

I suppose cooldowns in multiplayer are short which makes the action more intense but I really meant relative to Throw and Lash which are about half or less than Shockwave when comparing their utility. I suppose they will up the enemy count so it makes sense to scale the explosion physics with the hardware. I've never had a problem with a couple of classes skirting the cooldown system with bonus powers fee of cooldown but I've never been a fan of universal cooldown but It probably the best all be it flawed system for cooperative gameplay balancing. Sounds like you don't care for nova which is fine, I suppose it's an acquired taste. I still feel flimsy as hell using it as it is even on gold but I still enjoy it. If they tone down the I-frames it might not be such an issue if you take half blast as I usually do but we'll have to wait and see.

[SKAR]

Na-ah... it's neither full auto nor has burst fire. Besides it - I wouldn't call it "powerful".


For sure, kept it in mind while writing my rather long post :-)) But what I'd like to have is somewhat different:

a. if no enemy is targeted - hold down the number button to which BC is bound + eigher press one of WSAD or left-click with mouse on desired location;
b. if an enemy unit is targeted - it goes pretty much like the good ol' BC;
c."pretty much like" (not "exactly") means, that the very movement is accompanied by a kind of shockwave.

gets the job done.

[SKAR]

As for shockwave for Vanguards - it could be viable, but not in it's current state.

I'd propose the following changes to it:

a. it should cost certain amount of barriers instead of having a cooldown - i. e. use a mechanic similar to the Phase Disruptor one;
b. it should have a sectoral (aka angular) distribution pattern instead of current linear one;
c. it should be way more powerful. ME2 level would pass;
d. it could both prime the targets for biotic explosions and trigger the latter.
e. another option - it could lift the targets (except for armored ones) and prime them.

I.e. - in the nutshell - could work like a directional biotic explosion.

interesting concept.

[Malanek]

Nova should simply not have invincibility frames. I think Smash is the way to go for Shockwave. Obviously might need to change the animation to remove the whips but have a somewhat slower and clunkier animation than Shockwave but make it much more powerful. I loved Smash.

[SKAR]

Nova should simply not have invincibility frames. I think Smash is the way to go for Shockwave. Obviously might need to change the animation to remove the whips but have a somewhat slower and clunkier animation than Shockwave but make it much more powerful. I loved Smash.

I want Nova to stay the same. It was awesome!

[SKAR]

All in favor of biotic powers being like the force unleashed say Aye.

[Malanek]

I want Nova to stay the same. It was awesome!

I feel it was always meant to be a risk-reward power. The invincibility frames combined with the low cooldown on biotic charge meant there was very little risk. If you want to make the gameplay more dynamic and make the player decide whether or not to use nova, there have to be times when it isn't a good idea to use it between charges.

[Cyonan]

If they're bringing Nova back it needs to be revamped. Nova was supposed to be a high risk high reward ability, but it ended up being low risk high reward because you're immune to damage while the animation is playing out. This led to it being the case that it was never not a good idea to use Nova when Biotic Charge was on cooldown.

 

I'd remove the immunity frames from it, and maybe give it something like 50% DR instead. Alternatively you could make it an evolution choice: One gives you 50% DR for a few seconds on use while the other stuns all enemies it hits. If you want to do something a bit more interesting than slap DR on it and call it a day, you could make that choice even be something like 65% reduced damage dealt for all enemies it hits(increased because it wont protect you from farther targets now).

[SKAR]

I feel it was always meant to be a risk-reward power. The invincibility frames combined with the low cooldown on biotic charge meant there was very little risk. If you want to make the gameplay more dynamic and make the player decide whether or not to use nova, there have to be times when it isn't a good idea to use it between charges.

Invincibility frames were nice. The risk was loss of Shields. Reward was raw destruction.