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EA: Mass Effect Andromeda Will “Break Beyond” Core Gamer Audience; Will Use PGA Tour’s Crowd Tech


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#51
Sylvius the Mad

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If developers thought like this, we would not get games like World of Warcraft that blew the MMO market wide open.

They're welcome to chase that market expansion. We just shouldn't trust them until they deliver.

Yes, WoW blew open the market, much as EverQuest did before them. But what of all the failed attempts? Anarchy Online. Dark Age of Camelot. Star Wars Galaxies. And those are just the ones I personally beta tested.

We can look at the successes and conclude that it can be done, but to know whether its likely requires that we also look at the failures.

Video games wouldn't survive by remaining unchanged since the 80s, and not just because we almost killed the industry during those years and Nintendo had to save us from our own stupidity.

You're completely ignoring the computer game market, which didn't seem to suffer much at all from the collapse of Atari. Games kept getting made for the Apple IIe and Commodore 64 and then later the Amiga all through the '80s. And what of the other competing console systems of the time? The Intellivision was a great machine.

Nintendo brought back mass-market console gaming. And at the time, I hardly noticed, because I'd never stopped gaming.

As far as I'm concerned, EA still isn't forgiven for what they did to Westwood and Command & Conquer.

Their destruction of Origin Systems and the Ultima franchise is what irks me.

When EA bought BioWare, my hope was that BioWare would resurrect the Ultima series. Alas, that hasn't happened.

A modern remake of Ultima Underworld would be amazing.

#52
Sylvius the Mad

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They have. They're called crazes or fads.

Which are, by their very nature, unpredictable.

#53
StarcloudSWG

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EA has the problem that they're caught in the trap of wanting to please their investors and running their company as if its purpose is to please investors.

 

It isn't. The purpose of a company is never to please investors UNLESS it is a company specifically built to handle investment products, like a stock brokerage.

 

The purpose, the sole and only purpose of a company, is to provide goods and/or services to supply the demand for those goods and services. That's it. That's all there is.

 

The current EA executive suite seems to have temporarily learned that you cannot treat a Bioware / CRPG / action RPG game like you can a FIFA or a Madden annual re-release sports game. The debacle of Dragon Age 2 followed by the complete meltdown following the Mass Effect 3 release, has forced EA to back off demands for yearly releases from Bioware, which is giving Bioware time to develop the games more thoroughly. 

 

Another good sign is that Bioware was able to say "We're going to release in March 2017" now, a full year ahead of the release, rather than being pressured by EA for a November/December release and having to make a last minute decision to delay the release in September.



#54
Addictress

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EA has the problem that they're caught in the trap of wanting to please their investors and running their company as if its purpose is to please investors.

 

It isn't. The purpose of a company is never to please investors UNLESS it is a company specifically built to handle investment products, like a stock brokerage.

 

The purpose, the sole and only purpose of a company, is to provide goods and/or services to supply the demand for those goods and services. That's it. That's all there is.

 

The current EA executive suite seems to have temporarily learned that you cannot treat a Bioware / CRPG / action RPG game like you can a FIFA or a Madden annual re-release sports game. The debacle of Dragon Age 2 followed by the complete meltdown following the Mass Effect 3 release, has forced EA to back off demands for yearly releases from Bioware, which is giving Bioware time to develop the games more thoroughly. 

 

Another good sign is that Bioware was able to say "We're going to release in March 2017" now, a full year ahead of the release, rather than being pressured by EA for a November/December release and having to make a last minute decision to delay the release in September.

...unfortunately you are wrong.

 

The sole purpose of a company is to make a profit.

 

Supply and demand are inputs into the formula that yields profit.


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#55
LinksOcarina

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Wtf does that even mean? Do they mean like how certain games, like Halo, have moved beyond the "gamer shooter fan" audience into a more casual gamer audience? I'm not sure if that would be a good thing for an RPG. Especially for mass effect. It might water it down too much.

I've been playing games since I had a goddamn Atari as a kid. I remember seeing the N64 graphics for the first time and thinking "these graphics are so ****** realistic". I've spent uncountable hours of my life playing video games, literally amounting to months probably.

Now, with a demanding job, I barely have time anymore. The time I do have to play games, I am VERY selective about which games I buy and choose to spend that time on. Before I wasn't.

As gamers get older, more and more of us are in my position. Surely they realize it, and need to cater to a wider audience. Especially with the more "mature" games. And this worries me greatly. I hate to say it, but I am watching this coming news of Andromeda very carefully and cautiously, and if they don't deliver, I won't buy the game.

But as I've said before, I'm cautiously optimistic. I hope it will be awesome. I think it *probably* will be.

 

My guess, how RPG's have begun to transcend niche titles and become big sellers.

 

Case en point, Skyrim, The Witcher, Final Fantasy, Fallout. 

 

Mass Effect as a series sold really well for BioWare. Its probably in that camp, or at least, what Wilson is hoping it will be.



#56
LinksOcarina

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They're welcome to chase that market expansion. We just shouldn't trust them until they deliver.

Yes, WoW blew open the market, much as EverQuest did before them. But what of all the failed attempts? Anarchy Online. Dark Age of Camelot. Star Wars Galaxies. And those are just the ones I personally beta tested.

We can look at the successes and conclude that it can be done, but to know whether its likely requires that we also look at the failures.
You're completely ignoring the computer game market, which didn't seem to suffer much at all from the collapse of Atari. Games kept getting made for the Apple IIe and Commodore 64 and then later the Amiga all through the '80s. And what of the other competing console systems of the time? The Intellivision was a great machine.

Nintendo brought back mass-market console gaming. And at the time, I hardly noticed, because I'd never stopped gaming.
Their destruction of Origin Systems and the Ultima franchise is what irks me.

When EA bought BioWare, my hope was that BioWare would resurrect the Ultima series. Alas, that hasn't happened.

A modern remake of Ultima Underworld would be amazing.

 

Your view of computer gaming is a bit rose-tinted, since the late 80s to mid 90s is mired in a lot of trashy games.

 

Unlike the console market, the good thing about computer games is that there was a lot more variety. But when the majority were budget titles in the end its hard to really pinpoint what  constituted good or bad. Ultimately, you may not have stopped gaming, but the game weren't always of high quality.


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#57
Cyonan

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They're welcome to chase that market expansion. We just shouldn't trust them until they deliver.

Yes, WoW blew open the market, much as EverQuest did before them. But what of all the failed attempts? Anarchy Online. Dark Age of Camelot. Star Wars Galaxies. And those are just the ones I personally beta tested.

We can look at the successes and conclude that it can be done, but to know whether its likely requires that we also look at the failures.

 

Well I don't trust any company, but it shouldn't be actively discouraged because it leads to us getting more variety in games when they do blow markets open.

 

Also, Star Wars Galaxies was a fine game.

 

You're completely ignoring the computer game market, which didn't seem to suffer much at all from the collapse of Atari. Games kept getting made for the Apple IIe and Commodore 64 and then later the Amiga all through the '80s. And what of the other competing console systems of the time? The Intellivision was a great machine.

Nintendo brought back mass-market console gaming. And at the time, I hardly noticed, because I'd never stopped gaming.

 

I said it wouldn't survive for reasons beyond the fact that we crashed the market with our own stupidity, which had more to do with shovelware than anything else.

 

Very few games can get by for long periods of time without changing much to the formula. From what I've read, BioWare themselves were in trouble financially before EA bought them because they weren't really bringing a lot of new players into the fold. Mass Effect was the game that brought them into mainstream gaming.

 

If you don't change with the times, you'll get left behind. That's not a good thing for a company to have happen to them if they enjoy being a company.



#58
LinksOcarina

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If they're all RPGs, they should all be covered by the same definition of RPG.

Therefore, there would need to be some coherent definition of RPG which applies equally to Mass Effect and GURPS.

 

I got you covered, somewhat.

 

My Playing Roles series is basically an academic thesis asking the question as to what is a RPG, to the point where I plan on taking all of my articles and writing a book on it. 

 

The ultimate truth to that answer is a nebulous one, it doesn't have a clear definition because it crosses over into a lot of genres and design philosophies. Even Chainmail and first edition DnD is completely different to what constitutes an RPG today, to the point where tabletop games from the 1980s would be seen as a different genre of role-playing game. With video games, the classification is completely different, but should be done by describing the type of game. Games, and players, have changed as tastes and ideals evolved. It's the way of things and ultimately makes the true definition of an RPG meaningless to define outside of mechanics you expect when playing it. 

 

Like, a tactical RPG vs a action-RPG, or a rogue-like, or a dungeon crawler, or a MMO. That is how you form that definition, in my estimation at least. 


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#59
Pearl (rip bioware)

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Definitions are timeless.


This is a pretty good joke, I have to give you credit.

#60
ZipZap2000

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...unfortunately you are wrong.

The sole purpose of a company is to make a profit.

Supply and demand are inputs into the formula that yields profit.


Chicken and the egg. In this case though we can definitively say the egg came first. Which is the flaw in the logic here, a company exists to make a profit but they do that by supplying a reasonable product or service that fills a demand. Should your product have broader appeal as it is it will generate a larger profit. Altering the product in order to give it broader appeal may have the reverse effect.

Several examples come to mind.

Most recent is the debacle over the GLAD cling wrap cutter bar being moved for convenience sake. They were forced to do 90 second television commercials apologising and promising never to do it again.

Which is the point I think he was making.

#61
In Exile

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Chicken and the egg. In this case though we can definitively say the egg came first. Which is the flaw in the logic here, a company exists to make a profit but they do that by supplying a reasonable product or service that fills a demand. Should your product have broader appeal as it is it will generate a larger profit. Altering the product in order to give it broader appeal may have the reverse effect.

Several examples come to mind.

Most recent is the debacle over the GLAD cling wrap cutter bar being moved for convenience sake. They were forced to do 90 second television commercials apologising and promising never to do it again.

Which is the point I think he was making.


The duties of a company vis-a-vis it's shareholders and other stakeholders is actually determined by coprorate law. The point was about some weird obligation to supply.

#62
Seraphim24

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Whoa! Golf! Oh my bacon! My favorite!



#63
AlanC9

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Definitions are timeless.

Huh? Definitions change all the time. Languages drift.

#64
ZipZap2000

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The duties of a company vis-a-vis it's shareholders and other stakeholders is actually determined by coprorate law. The point was about some weird obligation to supply.


But we aren't talking about corporate law. We're discussing whether or not changing the product in order to market it to a wider audience is a good move or not.

Think about "New Coke" to get a better idea of the direction he was going in.

#65
Sylvius the Mad

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Also, Star Wars Galaxies was a fine game.

I thought they ruined it during beta when they cut my two favourite classes (Miner and Industrialist).

My point was, though, that it didn't do nearly as well as Raph Koster and LucasArts hoped.

Very few games can get by for long periods of time without changing much to the formula.

I'm not saying they shouldn't change. I'm saying they shouldn't stop being what they are.

Innovation can be a good thing.

From what I've read, BioWare themselves were in trouble financially before EA bought them because they weren't really bringing a lot of new players into the fold. Mass Effect was the game that brought them into mainstream gaming.

Mass Effect was developed entirely outside EA, and published by Microsoft (not EA).

BioWare was in financial trouble because they couldn't find anyone who would publish DAO. That DAO be published was a condition of the sale (though EA did delay it to make it multiplatform). That DAO was so successful is evidence that the publishers didn't understand the market as well as they thought they did.

#66
Sylvius the Mad

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Huh? Definitions change all the time. Languages drift.

I was talking about formal definitions.

Natural language definitions don't really function as definitions.

#67
Tetrabytes101

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what if biowear do things that arnt stampt biowear,what i mean is if they create things on EA titles that arnt biowear but biowear were involved in someway but we the customer had no idea they did that in that specific game,
Also if you create a game you want it to be the best for the customer and player base and for it to succeed.

#68
Addictress

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This is all speculation. There is no objective, formal definition of core gamerbase unfortunately. I mean there is a rough consensus on what that means in the fan community, but the executives of EA might have yet another definition.


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#69
ebevan91

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Will the crowds politely applaud if I make a good killing shot though?  And will the crowd yell 'get in the hole!' during a romance scene?

 

It tickles me how spectators will still yell "GET IN THE HOLE" even on the tee shot on a par 5 that's like 570 yards. 


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#70
Giantdeathrobot

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I don't know much of the story with Westwood - all that I heard was that a huge chunk of the studio quit in advance of the acquisition. Old EA has made some awful management and design decisions, but was this one about the studio or just their general inability to manage and staff an internal department?

 

Large parts of the studio quit ahead, and instead of rebuilding it EA basically made the remnants churn out C&C 3 (which I liked, actually, but not everyone did) Red Alert 3 (which was mediocre at best) and C&C 4 (the franchise killer, basically). So while EA doesn't share all the blame, it does have a significant hand in that studio's downfall, and later demise. The RTS genre is still reeling from that loss. Who makes those games today, apart from Blizzard and Relic?

 

Since the EA merger, meanwhile, Bioware has released 5 games, three Dragon Ages and two Mass Effects. Of those, DA2 is the only one I blame EA for, since it was clearly rushed to capitalize on DA:O's success. Apart from that? Those games certainly weren't perfect, but any flaws they have I attribute to Bioware themselves. EA didn't write the deplorable main plots of ME2/ME3, ordered DA:O to be so brown and visually bland, or made Bioware skip their classes on how to design side-quests in Inquisition. 

 

The only EA studio I can recall being manhandled by EA in recent years is Visceral, what with them shoe-horning a multiplayer mode and generic actions sequences in DS3, which bloated the budget so much the game didn't make strong returns even with millions of copies sold. Oh, and maybe DICE with Hardline and Battlefront, but it's really unclear how much it's EA's fault here. Methinks DICE had a bad concept with Hardline, and spent too many ressources on graphics for Battlefront. But maybe the latter game was rushed to release before The Force Awakens.


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#71
Sylvius the Mad

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I got you covered, somewhat.

My Playing Roles series is basically an academic thesis asking the question as to what is a RPG, to the point where I plan on taking all of my articles and writing a book on it.

I was sure Telegard was turn-based. Like many games of the time, the turns had a timer (if you walked away from Questron and left it running whole you stood in a town, your character would eventually starve to death), but I thought it was turn-based, which to me would make it very different from Diablo.

But it's been a really long time since I played Telegard.

To me, it's easy to draw a line (as you do) from the tabletop RPGs of the 1970s to the earliest CRPGs (which were, as you say, often just adaptations of tabletop rulesets). The leap to JRPGs is harder to make.

Especially if you tell the story in chronological order. But you didn't do that. You talked about the very earliest CRPGs as dungeon crawlers (which they were), but once you got to Wizardry and Akalabeth you jumped to Japan in 1984, which might give someone the impression that western RPGs were just dungeon crawlers until Japan introduced the concept of story and characters. You even go so far as to say that the western developers of the 1990s were the first to introduce nuanced plot lines in western RPGs, when there are at least 4 Ultima games that did it first (U4-U7).

But earlier games like Ultima I and II had stories, and they'd begun to flesh out the world. Many western RPGs from this period focused on overland exploration and introduced detailed NPCs (you do get to these later, but I think you rush past the 1980s in the west and get right into the decline of the 1990s when CRPGs then had to compete with consoles again, and the JRPGs were first entering the western market).

Yes, the western RPGs had stagnated somewhat in the absence of any meaningful competition, but we're talking about a 10+ year period. Lots of games got made in those 10 years.

You also point to the Ultima series as an exception, describing its use of story despite being a western game, but the exception doesn't prove the rule. Exceptions disprove rules.

Questron had a story. Bard's Tale had a story. Might & Magic had a story. They weren't as tightly woven as the stories out of Japan, because the games were doing something other than telling a story. They were setting you free to explore the world. The story was just one thing you could do.

JRPGs get lumped together with RPGs because of the name, but they arose from a history of storytelling, not roleplaying.

The ultimate truth to that answer is a nebulous one, it doesn't have a clear definition because it crosses over into a lot of genres and design philosophies. Even Chainmail and first edition DnD is completely different to what constitutes an RPG today, to the point where tabletop games from the 1980s would be seen as a different genre of role-playing game. With video games, the classification is completely different, but should be done by describing the type of game. Games, and players, have changed as tastes and ideals evolved. It's the way of things and ultimately makes the true definition of an RPG meaningless to define outside of mechanics you expect when playing it.

Like, a tactical RPG vs a action-RPG, or a rogue-like, or a dungeon crawler, or a MMO. That is how you form that definition, in my estimation at least.

None of that has anything to do with roleplaying, supposedly the core feature of the genre.

#72
Cyonan

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I thought they ruined it during beta when they cut my two favourite classes (Miner and Industrialist).

My point was, though, that it didn't do nearly as well as Raph Koster and LucasArts hoped.

 

"Didn't do as well as they hoped" can be said of any pretty much any MMO from that time period onward, because none of them ever matched WoW's success(which they wanted to get a piece of after WoW launched and blew the market wide open). Funnily enough, Galaxies was doing quite well for a MMO until NGE.

 

That doesn't make it a failure. At least not until it tried to become WoW, because chasing after an already tapped market and emulating the most successful example isn't the best idea in gaming. The people who wanted WoW were already playing WoW and saw no need to switch.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't change. I'm saying they shouldn't stop being what they are.

Innovation can be a good thing.

 

Mass Effect was developed entirely outside EA, and published by Microsoft (not EA).

BioWare was in financial trouble because they couldn't find anyone who would publish DAO. That DAO be published was a condition of the sale (though EA did delay it to make it multiplatform). That DAO was so successful is evidence that the publishers didn't understand the market as well as they thought they did.

 

If they aren't pulling in enough money for a AAA developer to continue making games with the rising costs of development, then they pretty much have to change what they are by necessity.

 

Traditional RPGs found themselves a niche genre in an industry that was having the cost of making games constantly going up while the price of buying them wasn't changing. They weren't winning people over, and the core fans weren't deemed enough to sustain development of future games.

 

 

While Origins sold rather well they also changed quite a bit by streamlining a lot of stuff compared to Baldur's Gate, to the point where many traditional RPG fans complained about the "dumbing down" of the system. Not long before that, Bethesda also decided they needed to make some changes in order to keep Elder Scrolls going as a series and so Oblivion also streamlined things.

 

To many people, those games had already stopped being what they were. Both Oblivion as an Elder Scrolls game and Origins as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate.


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#73
AlanC9

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But we aren't talking about corporate law. We're discussing whether or not changing the product in order to market it to a wider audience is a good move or not.
Think about "New Coke" to get a better idea of the direction he was going in.

New Coke doesn't really fit, since they weren't trying to bring in new customers; Coke was still the market leader. The problem with Coke was that Coke was steadily losing market share to Pepsi, and focus groups showed that Coke really did do worse in blind taste tests. Younger customers were turning to sweeter drinks.

#74
AlanC9

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I was talking about formal definitions.
Natural language definitions don't really function as definitions.


OK, but RPGs -- either kind -- aren't formally defined.
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#75
Seraphim24

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To be more concrete the identity of ME and Bioware is 100% metastatic it will not change one iota in any direction.

 

So, the idea that MEA will break beyond any audience then the one it already has is kind of ludicrous IMHO. 

 

That applies to more companies than just Bioware naturally.