New Coke doesn't really fit, since they weren't trying to bring in new customers; Coke was still the market leader. The problem with Coke was that Coke was steadily losing market share to Pepsi, and focus groups showed that Coke really did do worse in blind taste tests. Younger customers were turning to sweeter drinks.
Coke is the master race today though.
I think the important to understand about gaming is that in many ways it defines largely in direct opposition to "market trends" etc.
If gamers sense someone trying to micro-program micro-logic/test focus their way into their good grace, their liable to reject it on those grounds alone.
The absolute worst thing you can do as a game developer is try and use the "mainstream logic" or "consensus opinions" or "what's trending" or really just any form of "business logic" to assess the likely desires and such like that to find what gamers want. Gamers tend to smell that out and reject it in the extreme for that reason alone, and such as been the defeat and end of many a gaming company....
I think the important to understand about gaming is that in many ways it defines largely in direct opposition to "market trends" etc.
If gamers sense someone trying to micro-program micro-logic/test focus their way into their good grace, their liable to reject it on those grounds alone.
The absolute worst thing you can do as a game developer is try and use the "mainstream logic" or "consensus opinions" or "what's trending" or really just any form of "business logic" to assess the likely desires and such like that to find what gamers want. Gamers tend to smell that out and reject it in the extreme for that reason alone, and such as been the defeat and end of many a gaming company....
In gaming the biggest problem in trying to follow market trends is that it takes so long to make a game. At least in the AAA industry.
So if say, horror games are really big right now and you go to make a AAA game of one, it might not be popular in 3 years time when the game is actually done. This means companies have to try to more predict what the market will look like down the road.
but in general you do still need to use some kind of business logic and appeal to what the majority of your fanbase wants.
I think the important to understand about gaming is that in many ways it defines largely in direct opposition to "market trends" etc.
If gamers sense someone trying to micro-program micro-logic/test focus their way into their good grace, their liable to reject it on those grounds alone.
The absolute worst thing you can do as a game developer is try and use the "mainstream logic" or "consensus opinions" or "what's trending" or really just any form of "business logic" to assess the likely desires and such like that to find what gamers want. Gamers tend to smell that out and reject it in the extreme for that reason alone, and such as been the defeat and end of many a gaming company....
The implication here is that continuing to focus solely on your core audience is a safer route to prosperity. I wonder how Black Isle and Troika feel about that?
The truth is that various reasons have ended various gaming companies. Trying to expand your audience isn't a worse bet than staying put.
In gaming the biggest problem in trying to follow market trends is that it takes so long to make a game. At least in the AAA industry.
So if say, horror games are really big right now and you go to make a AAA game of one, it might not be popular in 3 years time when the game is actually done. This means companies have to try to more predict what the market will look like down the road.
but in general you do still need to use some kind of business logic and appeal to what the majority of your fanbase wants.
You are illustrating my point, the companies that follow the business logic end up torquing and gnashing against the thing they aren't understanding which is that gamers hate trends like the plague.
The implication here is that continuing to focus solely on your core audience is a safer route to prosperity. I wonder how Black Isle and Troika feel about that?
Black Isle and Troika's contributions were just rolled into Bioware ultimately. I liked Bioware's games and Black Isle but ultimately Bioware was just a little bit better so those are the ones I stuck with and I actually didn't play Troika games despite hating trends and liking Fallout etc and other Tim Cain stuff.
And Bioware's games were successful, by the way, because they were against the grain, so............................
No?
In other words Black Isle and Troika were beaten by the company that was even more against the grain than them, so it still just proves my point. I consider.. I don't know... NWN to be more transgressive than Arcanuum or Icewind Dale despite enjoying both of those other games because they are fun.
Black Isle and Troika's contributions were just rolled into Bioware ultimately. I liked Bioware's games and Black Isle but ultimately Bioware was just a little bit better so those are the ones I stuck with and I actually didn't bother with Troika despite hating trends.
And Bioware's games were successful, by the way, because they were against the grain, so............................
No?
BioWare almost had to close as well, before the whole EA thing. Despite their games being "successful," they ran out of money.
BioWare almost had to close as well, before the whole EA thing. Despite their games being "successful," they ran out of money.
That was their mistake in making a super fancy Dragon Age like epic experience NWN and such were small scale. Dragon Age is the most conservative of their games as well by the way, so that didn't help matters.
NWN is the creme de la creme of all those CRPGs that you hear about here and there in many ways superceded perhaps by Baldur's Gate. It's not superceding all RPGs everywhere but that specific canon that people regard as supreme even moreso than Torment and others.
Come to think of it, New Coke might actually be on point, if we think of sweetness in colas and exploration in RPGs as equivalents -- something the company hadn't been big on before but felt they had to do as the market changed under them.
But...BG1/2 and NWN?
You are illustrating my point, the companies that follow the business logic end up torquing and gnashing against the thing they aren't understanding which is that gamers hate trends like the plague.
Well I think it's not that we hate trends. We cause trends all the time, just like any large group of consumers are bound to do.
I think it's more that our trends have a habit of changing in less time than it takes to develop a well made AAA game, so you have to basically try and guess what it will be but often companies are wrong and we jump to a trend nobody was really expecting.
I think the important to understand about gaming is that in many ways it defines largely in direct opposition to "market trends" etc.
If gamers sense someone trying to micro-program micro-logic/test focus their way into their good grace, their liable to reject it on those grounds alone.
The absolute worst thing you can do as a game developer is try and use the "mainstream logic" or "consensus opinions" or "what's trending" or really just any form of "business logic" to assess the likely desires and such like that to find what gamers want. Gamers tend to smell that out and reject it in the extreme for that reason alone, and such as been the defeat and end of many a gaming company....
Gaming communities on forums and Youtube comments might think like that, but the best selling games are very much those who play it safe, focus test and follow trends.
I mean, cripes, this is the industry that gets away with many series (CoD, AssCreed, EA Sports, Pokémon...) being annual or quasi-annual offerings that change almost nothing between installments and still make billions, to say nothing of crappy mobile games making even more $. Don't tell me gamers reject market trends.
But...BG1/2 and NWN?
*knocks ryncol out of hand* try some mountain dew man. All you do is drink ryncol all day. Ryncol ain't got $#¡t on the dew.Resuming standard procedures.
*Sips Ryncol.*
That was their mistake in making a super fancy Dragon Age like epic experience NWN and such were small scale. Dragon Age is the most conservative of their games as well by the way, so that didn't help matters.
NWN is the creme de la creme of all those CRPGs that you hear about here and there in many ways superceded perhaps by Baldur's Gate. It's not superceding all RPGs everywhere but that specific canon that people regard as supreme even moreso than Torment and others.
So the CRPG market was so barren that only BioWare could survive? And Black Isle, who made many beloved games, couldn't cut it because they weren't counter-culture enough? Is that the gist of it?
It never ends well when a game tries to appeal to everyone. It usually means they'll be making a jack of trades expert at nothing game.
As for the new tech, I'm interested in seeing how this will play out. If implemented well we can finally have crowded areas instead of four peeps hanging about. I was always disappointed with how empty the Citadel looked. If implemented poorly, we're have a lot to laugh about.
So far, I don't think any game can beat out Homefront: Revolution in the worst game department...well maybe "Ride to Hell" can. lol!
Gaming communities on forums and Youtube comments might think like that, but the best selling games are very much those who play it safe, focus test and follow trends.
I mean, cripes, this is the industry that gets away with many series (CoD, AssCreed, EA Sports, Pokémon...) being annual or quasi-annual offerings that change almost nothing between installments and still make billions, to say nothing of crappy mobile games making even more $. Don't tell me gamers reject market trends.
Well there's a distinction to be made between surfing off the achievements of something already made that went against the grain. None of those franchises you mentioned have an origin in "trends" even Call of Duty broke a lot of mold.
The thing that wins absolutely in all instances is the thing that breaks the most trend, 100% of the time, trends mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, and what you call trends are probably just people surfing off the original mold-breaking thing.
The problem is with your assessment of "gamers" extremely hardcore gamers have moved on to other things but many are still satisfied with what's offered in those various arenas, even though their identitites are relatively static they don't mind playing the same thing.
So the CRPG market was so barren that only BioWare could survive? And Black Isle, who made many beloved games, couldn't cut it because they weren't counter-culture enough? Is that the gist of it?
I get the impression that a lot of fans just assume that Black Isle and Bioware or whatever was like the entire CRPG market... no that's not what I said at all.
There are tons of CRPGs, Bioware just made ones that were a little bit better than Black Isle, and yes Black Isle wasn't "counter-culture" enough compared to Bioware. I played all of Icewind Dale Baldur's Gate etc when they were released and there was never a doubt that Bioware was slightly better.
Just like there's no doubt in my mind that there are CRPGs that are better than Baldur's Gate and guess what plenty of them make tons of money in the present time for going against the grain.
What all the trendsters haven't realized is that "not going against the grain" became "going against the grain" so their busy looking for controversies as a measure of intrigue and profitability when there are simply really great games that exceed artistically in all respects the likes of such types of media or many other games at this point.
And when the trendsters want to "not go against the grain" that'll be the time gamering will start moving in a "go against the grain" phrase that is more overt. You can think of gaming even as little more as defining itself in opposition to certain kinds of things, ideas, etc, it doesn't matter whether it's even a video game the most important criteria is that it opposes certain things, and that is where the direction has gone and those things are often making a lot of money.
In the end, trends always lose.
I have no idea what the distinction is supposed to be between Black Isle and Bio there.
I was just saying that Black Isle made kind of countercultural interesting games that were anti-trend etc, but Bioware was even more that way, hence the reason they ultimately got a lot of attention and interest was simply because they were even more independent expression and such.
It's commonly assumed the same with Planescape Torment and other games, that they are the deep meta-core of CRPG and Baldur's Gate is some kind of pure ripoff but once again played Torment when it was released and while it was certainly good it wasn't as good as Baldur's Gate. PST mostly retained the entirety of the Torment setting which is an interesting setting, whereas Baldur's Gate was kind of trying to turn over the D&D setting slightly in it's entirety.
Just like there are games that eclipse Baldur's Gate for going even further and such, and as I've been alluding to go even more against the grain and are currently quite profitable because of it.
What on earth is "countercultural" being used to mean here?
Just anti-trend anti-business logic whatever, anti-mainstream, the kind of thing where instead of expecting to get this safe kind of answer or response it's something that actually probes deep into your psychology and tend to give you an actual emotional response.
Typically, the pattern is to "trendize" something after it's done that in order to "prove" that trends and safe can win but since it always takes place over the corpose or body of something that wasn't all it really is is just an extended fantasy.
A fantasy that costs real time, energy, and such, but a fantasy nonetheless.
That made no sense.
Are you sure the problem isn't on your end?
Anyway, whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't change what it is, the games that are currently better than Bioware and other media due to being more artistically distinct and breaking molds and all that are making a lot of money. While Bioware may no doubt make money and have all that going for them possibly for years in the future or whatever their relevance as far as hardcore gaming goes is 100% gone.
It's not really a big deal to be honest, I think many people like the fact that Bioware won't change and all that but you can't expect everyone to gravitate towards it. I myself just mostly play those other games these days and don't know the story about Bioware at all, sticking around here solely because I just run into people I like to talk to about whatever.
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