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Do you think the Herald of Andraste will become a permanent part of the Chantry's beliefs?


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#26
DuskWanderer

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I don't think the Herald will be remembered in the Chant of Light simply because the Chant of Light tends to be written by Andraste, or so the story goes. I think the Inquisitor will be remembered as a righteous crusader and a piece of history. 

 

I think that the Chantry will speak of the Inquisitor as a holy figure though. Just not in the Chant. 



#27
Dai Grepher

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That's right, but I wonder about the interpretation the scholars will make.


Likely it will end up with all the various opinions listed, and then ending with "no one really know for sure", or something like that.

Given that propaganda was outside the Inquisitor's control until Skyhold and that they don't have the option to publicly oppose it until Adamant (and even then, we only have few chances to do that), plus all those companions that may write their own interpretation of the events (Varric's will probably be the most famous, and he believes the Inquisitor is the Herald), I fear that even the most honest scholar may make mistakes. Then add the less honest scholars and it can be a historiographical mess.


Well the Chantry's opposition in the beginning was due to everything being hearsay and rumor. Wild speculations. The Chantry responded with condemnation and denouncement because the clerics were afraid of what the "Herald" was or how he would affect the faith.

If only BioWare had taken Varric's aspect seriously, then I'd agree with you. But the fact he even names the book "This **** is Weird" just smacks of tavern tales for the gullible and drunk. Another failing of Trespasser.

True. Depending on our choices, Flemeth can hijack the Inquisitor more than whatever she did to the Warden or Hawke.


Yes. Solas also made a comment during the blood magic discussion (if you pick the proper response in the blood magic is evil branch) that he once saw a woman use her own blood to heal a patients wounds, though it is unlikely the Inquisitor would find her with the Inquisition (Solas disapproved of this particular Inquisitor). I just got a bad feeling that he was referring to Flemeth healing the Warden. Which could mean she has some sort of control over him as well.

And even if she doesn't have the (ex)Inquisitor under the compulsion, Flemeth could still be alive, or Mythal still watching as Solas was when he was asleep. Flemeth/Mythal could still use the (ex)Inquisitor somehow.

#28
Mistic

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Likely it will end up with all the various opinions listed, and then ending with "no one really know for sure", or something like that.

 

That would be eerily similar to the codex entry on Ameridan by Bram Kenric, so you're most likely right.

 

If only BioWare had taken Varric's aspect seriously, then I'd agree with you. But the fact he even names the book "This **** is Weird" just smacks of tavern tales for the gullible and drunk. Another failing of Trespasser.

 

Failing? That's what he does, and that's how many myths are made. A lot of stories about Troy, king Arthur and the many epic poems were composed for popular consumption before they reached the halls of fame. It's pretty realistic, if you ask me, and one of Trespasser's and, in general, Inquisition's strongest points (so much talking about Varric's books in DA2 and it's not until DA:I that we can take a look at them).

 

In universe, a story like that is the reason the world is still familiar with the idea that Ameridan might have had a mage lover. Also, we know that there are people like Cassandra writing dry and boring reports, and you can talk to her about their implications.

 

A good real-life example would be that of El Cid Campeador, who was a real knight from Medieval Spain. There are some historical documents about him, some even signed by the man himself, but most of the best known events in his life come from popular culture. There's a bit of everything, from a long epic poem that paints him as a loyal and pious servant of his king to shorter, more popular poems that paint him as a badass who constantly bullies the arrogant nobles and royals. Heck, there's even an equivalent of the typical "The adventures of young Indiana Jones" spin-off. All of them conveniently downplay, overlook or even erase the time he spent serving the Muslims as a mercenary.



#29
d1ta

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Probably still sticks there somewhere in Chantry canon but would alter some stories here and there. Though some people grate your nerves during trespasser, by the time you die I'm betting there would be a grand funeral where everybody is quick and eager to proclaim that they were your true friend. Legends about the Herald will probably be mishmashed here and there to cater to society's belief and headcanon to suit their flavour.

#30
Dai Grepher

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That would be eerily similar to the codex entry on Ameridan by Bram Kenric, so you're most likely right.


Thanks. There's another letter found in the back storage room in the Winter Palace during Trespasser that mentions Drakon and that he had to pick a mage, I think to be Grand Enchanter or something. He picked some guy, but the letter states there was a rumor that he was the second pick. It was speculated that Drakon had some other mage that he wanted for the position, but it didn't happen for reasons unknown. It mentions this is based off of various letters and notes, all of which would be dust by now, so the theory should be treated the same.

I think BioWare was hinting at Ameridan here. So the documents from that time were not preserved. That's why I tend to lean toward the idea that the current era will have better record keeping. Also, the modern Inquisitor did more for the world than just go after some dragon on a secret mission. So records of the modern Inquisitor will likely be preserved and reviewed by numerous people throughout the ages. The only thing that would ruin that might be Solas plunging the world into chaos, in which case most people probably won't care what the Inquisitor did years before to delay the inevitable.

Failing? That's what he does, and that's how many myths are made. A lot of stories about Troy, king Arthur and the many epic poems were composed for popular consumption before they reached the halls of fame. It's pretty realistic, if you ask me, and one of Trespasser's and, in general, Inquisition's strongest points (so much talking about Varric's books in DA2 and it's not until DA:I that we can take a look at them).


Some reports are that his books aren't that popular. Thom found a copy of Hard in Hightown in a latrine with pages missing, and Varric admits S&S is the worst. I'm sure people will read one on the Inquisition, but coming from one inside the Inquisition, and considering the writing style, most will probably not believe most of it.

#31
Mistic

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I think BioWare was hinting at Ameridan here. So the documents from that time were not preserved. That's why I tend to lean toward the idea that the current era will have better record keeping. Also, the modern Inquisitor did more for the world than just go after some dragon on a secret mission. So records of the modern Inquisitor will likely be preserved and reviewed by numerous people throughout the ages. The only thing that would ruin that might be Solas plunging the world into chaos, in which case most people probably won't care what the Inquisitor did years before to delay the inevitable.

 

There are more things. One of the reasons in-universe a lot of knowledge is lost is because of the Blights. Thankfully, the fifth was stopped, but we know that there are two more left. And that's without counting your usual wars, fires, book purges, accidents, etc.

 

In our world, we didn't have Blights, but it's very, very, very difficult to find original works from before the printing press. I had to research the destruction of books and libraries throughout history for a project of mine, and the result was depressing. Very depressing.

 

Some reports are that his books aren't that popular. Thom found a copy of Hard in Hightown in a latrine with pages missing, and Varric admits S&S is the worst. I'm sure people will read one on the Inquisition, but coming from one inside the Inquisition, and considering the writing style, most will probably not believe most of it.

 

I always thought it was Bioware pointing out at the hype backlash that surrounds many popular works (I mean, criticizing Twilight or 50 shades is an international sport!) despite of or precisely because of their popularity :P

 

In any case, WoT 2 confirms that Hard in Hightown is currently the widest-read book in Thedas*. But you may be up to something, because it seems that at least one Antivan critic found the Tale of the Champion too unbelievable (and Hawke sent him a letter of thanks XD).

 

* Tevinter isn't counted. As hinted by TME and DA:I, and befitting their place as a Byzantium expy, it seems the literacy rates and access to books are far higher in the Imperium.



#32
Qun00

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Likely it will end up with all the various opinions listed, and then ending with "no one really know for sure", or something like that.


Well the Chantry's opposition in the beginning was due to everything being hearsay and rumor. Wild speculations. The Chantry responded with condemnation and denouncement because the clerics were afraid of what the "Herald" was or how he would affect the faith.

If only BioWare had taken Varric's aspect seriously, then I'd agree with you. But the fact he even names the book "This **** is Weird" just smacks of tavern tales for the gullible and drunk. Another failing of Trespasser.


Yes. Solas also made a comment during the blood magic discussion (if you pick the proper response in the blood magic is evil branch) that he once saw a woman use her own blood to heal a patients wounds, though it is unlikely the Inquisitor would find her with the Inquisition (Solas disapproved of this particular Inquisitor). I just got a bad feeling that he was referring to Flemeth healing the Warden. Which could mean she has some sort of control over him as well.

And even if she doesn't have the (ex)Inquisitor under the compulsion, Flemeth could still be alive, or Mythal still watching as Solas was when he was asleep. Flemeth/Mythal could still use the (ex)Inquisitor somehow.


Are you sure you're not just taking Solas' line "the healer has the bloodiest hands" too literally?

#33
Dai Grepher

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That's not the line I'm using at all. Solas states in conversation with an Inquisitor he doesn't like and who hates bloodmagic that he once saw a bloodmage shed her own blood to heal a patient's wounds.

#34
Gervaise

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There was another codex about how some guy sacrificed himself to save his lovers life through blood magic.    Which is odd if you think about it because whenever blood magic has been an option in game you can only heal your own wounds by stealing someone else's life force but not heal anyone else and conventional healing spells won't work on someone using blood magic, so it would seem strange if using blood to fuel your magic allowed you to heal anyone else.    So this is an area where there seems to have been some backtracking from previous lore.  

 

Still, if a blood mage is using their own blood to heal the wound, that simply means their own blood is fuelling the spell as opposed to another sacrificial victim.   There is no reason why that would give them any control over their patient unless they combined their blood magic healing spell with a mind control spell (which is what blood magic is more generally known to be used for).     So whatever Flemeth did to heal the Warden did not give her control over them.   Besides which, she says that her form of possession cannot be forced on the unwilling (which would I assume include mind control), so for her to control another person would require their consent.    In the case of the person who drinks from the Well of Sorrows, they gave it when they voluntarily decided to drink.



#35
Mistic

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There was another codex about how some guy sacrificed himself to save his lovers life through blood magic.    Which is odd if you think about it because whenever blood magic has been an option in game you can only heal your own wounds by stealing someone else's life force but not heal anyone else and conventional healing spells won't work on someone using blood magic, so it would seem strange if using blood to fuel your magic allowed you to heal anyone else.    So this is an area where there seems to have been some backtracking from previous lore. 

 

Wait, couldn't we use healing spells in Blood Magic mode in Origins? Even if they were weaker, the possibility was still there. And if it's about healing others, it was my imrpession that the Blood Magic mode in DA2 only made Hawke immune to conventional healing, but didn't stop them from healing others with Creation spells.


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#36
Daerog

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The Inquisitor will be a part of history, including the Chantry's history due to the creation of the second Inquisition and who was elected Divine.

A part of Chantry belief? Unless the Inquisitor is made an Anointed, I doubt he'll be a part of the dogma. The Inquisitor was believed to have been chosen for the task, but that doesn't give the Inquisitor authority on doctrine or anything.

As others have said, depending on actions in DAI, the Inquisitor will be a part of Chantry history like Shartan and Andraste's in-laws are, or the Inquisitor will be like a lesser Drakon or Hessarian.

#37
Dai Grepher

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There was another codex about how some guy sacrificed himself to save his lovers life through blood magic.    Which is odd if you think about it because whenever blood magic has been an option in game you can only heal your own wounds by stealing someone else's life force but not heal anyone else and conventional healing spells won't work on someone using blood magic, so it would seem strange if using blood to fuel your magic allowed you to heal anyone else.    So this is an area where there seems to have been some backtracking from previous lore.


No, I think the blood could have been used to infuse the target with vitality. Sacrificing one's own vitality to restore another person's. Like the opposite of the Origins spell to steal life from a team mate. Either that, or the blood was used for a spell that shielded the target from a deadly occurrence.

Still, if a blood mage is using their own blood to heal the wound, that simply means their own blood is fuelling the spell as opposed to another sacrificial victim.


It's possible she used bloodmagic to power a healing spell, but Solas said that she shed her own blood to close a patient's wounds. It implies that the blood left her body and entered the patient's.

There is no reason why that would give them any control over their patient unless they combined their blood magic healing spell with a mind control spell (which is what blood magic is more generally known to be used for).


Correct, though I tend to think of this as more of a... "infection" of sorts. Like in Dracula lore. Once the blood is inside the host, that blood can be manipulated to take over the host.

So whatever Flemeth did to heal the Warden did not give her control over them.   Besides which, she says that her form of possession cannot be forced on the unwilling (which would I assume include mind control)


Why would you assume that? Those two things aren't the same. She wouldn't be possessing the Warden, she would be controlling his mind. Same as she can control Morrigan if she drank from the Well, but she does not possess her.

so for her to control another person would require their consent.


That isn't the case with bloodmagic though.

In the case of the person who drinks from the Well of Sorrows, they gave it when they voluntarily decided to drink.


But they are not possessed. They are under a spell, as would be the case with someone under bloodmagic.

#38
Fiskrens

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There are more things. One of the reasons in-universe a lot of knowledge is lost is because of the Blights. Thankfully, the fifth was stopped, but we know that there are two more left. And that's without counting your usual wars, fires, book purges, accidents, etc.

In our world, we didn't have Blights, but it's very, very, very difficult to find original works from before the printing press. I had to research the destruction of books and libraries throughout history for a project of mine, and the result was depressing. Very depressing.

I'm not certain those two remaining blights are written in stone any longer. Besides, going on Solas view on Grey Wardens' agenda, one could become more afraid for what would happen should they succeed. (I think this is independent on how you view Solas and his plans; his reaction looks genuinely shaken and angry).

But speculation aside, blights are simply comparable to great wars, and we can be quite certain that will occur in Thedas, sooner or later. "The first casualty of war is the truth" [sic], and "It's the winner's prerogative to (re-)write history" [sic, again ;) ] are two real-world quotes that fit quite well here. The scar in the sky will make certain the story's not completely forgotten, but how it will be remembered is entirely uncertain; I personally lean towards "the Ameridan style", a lot of history has already been rewritten to suit the Chantry.

#39
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Not really to that whole worshipping a make-belive deity because of a gifted woman who is "chosen".

#40
GoldenGail3

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I don't think so, to be honest - they might make my Male Lavellan into a Male Human or something - I don't think they'll really worship my Male Lavellan like Andraste, due to him being both a mage and elf.



#41
Daerog

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Why not worship a make-believe deity in Thedas? Works well for the Avvar it seems.

Get spirits to act like how you believe your gods would act, reap all the benefits (and any necessary evils/consequences).

The Chantry believes in stuff greater than the Fade, so they don't go for the whole "Build-A-God" thing the Avvar like, but there are benefits to it.

Edit: Biggest danger is making a demon or a demon pretending. Avvar must have a method to make sure they are dealing with a spirit that took on their god's role instead of a demon.

#42
WardenWade

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Personally, I always make every attempt to spread the truth that the Herald did not encounter Andraste, even doing the requisition quests to spread truthful propaganda.  Even were this not done, I believe word would likely get out as to the truth, and/or the dubious reputation among many regarding the Inquisition by the time of Trespasser would seal the deal for many not thinking them divine.  It seems unlikely that many would continue to consider them a holy figure at this point, particularly with the Anchor removed.  If anyone deserves the honor of being a religious figure in the future, it is Justinia in my opinion.



#43
Ghost Gal

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Only if they can rewrite history so that the Herald is a non-magic, devout human Andrastian (regardless of the player's chosen background) whose personal beliefs and accomplishments side with their politics. (Like they did with Ameridan and others.)