497 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

isn't shooting things more than once superfluous? You've already done enough to show that Shep can do combat and kill things.

Shooting things is actual gameplay.

Watching cut-scenes is not.

[Il Divo]

Shooting things is actual gameplay.

Watching cut-scenes is not.

 

While true, following Lord Kiran's standard, it would be gratuitous and shameless gameplay. 

[Akernis]

Basically ask yourself this question: Does the Liara/Shep sex scene from ME3 serve to make the story/game better in some way that the example given above simply doesn't, or is it just there for the purposes of titillation? If your answer is the latter then that automatically makes it gratuitous and shameless.

And if my answer is the former?

Let me guess, I have a bad taste in what content I enjoy when playing my games?

 

I loved that sex scene, not only did I find it very tastefully done, but it seemed a both fitting and rewarding culmination of the romance arc across the game. A sex scene can be lovingly crafted and give an intimate look into the romance, desire, and love between these two people that a fade-to-black only hints at. 

Could we just leave it to the imagination what happens? Absolutely, but so could we about any part of the game (though that would probably give outrage). But personally I always appreciate when the writers and designers go that extra mile to give us a glimpse into the characters' relationship beyond "and then they probably kiss, or get naked, or whatever you want to imagine they do."   

If the sex scenes also vary by character then it goes further to characterise these people we know and love (metaphorically or literally). Which beyond ME1 is something that the Mass Effect games has generally been good at doing. A sex scene with Tali would would be different from one with Liara which would again be different from one with Miranda, Jack, Garrus, Kaidan, or Thane etc.

[Sylvius the Mad]

isn't shooting things more than once superfluous? You've already done enough to show that Shep can do combat and kill things.

I would argue that it is. In ME3 the combat never really changes, so having to do it over and over again just gets monotonous.

[Puddi III]

While I can understand the reaction to perceived cringeworthy fanservicy trash, you also have to question how much of the reaction is because it's actually trash and how much is because you just have a childish hangup about seeing boobies.

[Il Divo]

While I can understand the reaction to perceived cringeworthy fanservicy trash, you also have to question how much of the reaction is because it's actually trash and how much is because you just have a childish hangup about seeing boobies.

 

Personally, I don't like Bioware's approach to romances, on any level. But as much as people try to peg this as gratuitous and useless to the plot, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to find that many players find themselves emotionally invested in watching every aspect of their character "in action". At least, judging by the fan art/ fan fiction that fans have put together. 

[Puddi III]

I think people just arbitrarily define as gratuitous and useless the things that they don't want to see. Any aspect of the game outside of text could be considered such if you wanted the whole game to play like a visual novel, for example.

[Jimbo_Gee79]

I would rather say that no game is perfect. I slammed inquisition when it first came out. But it was a good experience after a few patches. I'm looking forward to a new experience but i'm realistic in my expectation.

[Lord Kiran]

And if my answer is the former?

Let me guess, I have a bad taste in what content I enjoy when playing my games?

 

I loved that sex scene, not only did I find it very tastefully done, but it seemed a both fitting and rewarding culmination of the romance arc across the game. A sex scene can be lovingly crafted and give an intimate look into the romance, desire, and love between these two people that a fade-to-black only hints at. 

Could we just leave it to the imagination what happens? Absolutely, but so could we about any part of the game (though that would probably give outrage). But personally I always appreciate when the writers and designers go that extra mile to give us a glimpse into the characters' relationship beyond "and then they probably kiss, or get naked, or whatever you want to imagine they do."   

If the sex scenes also vary by character then it goes further to characterise these people we know and love (metaphorically or literally). Which beyond ME1 is something that the Mass Effect games has generally been good at doing. A sex scene with Tali would would be different from one with Liara which would again be different from one with Miranda, Jack, Garrus, Kaidan, or Thane etc.

Don't put words in my mouth please. If you answered the former, I'd ask why you felt that way, what it adds to the game to justify its inclusion.

 

Frankly, I disagree with your assertion that visibly seeing something establishes it any better than visually implying it. Even if that were the case, the problem would still be that Shep's romances are not the focus of the game. The focus of the game is "shep and co. go on a galactic adventure to stop the big bads." Showing shep and another character sitting there having awfully animated sex doesn't add to the relationship, it just detracts from the narrative. It'd be like if they felt the need to include a steamy sex seen in the empire strikes back between han and leia. 

[Lord Kiran]

isn't shooting things more than once superfluous? You've already done enough to show that Shep can do combat and kill things.

Not at all. Everytime you shoot an enemy, it is for the purpose of getting that enemy out of your way so you can proceed forward, thus propelling the story forward.

[geezer117]

DA:I was beautiful, with an absorbing plotline. All it needed was a good game to go along with that. Something to hold all that openness and all those optional pathways inside a functional game. Then add some actual combat mechanics like ME, and it would have been a winner. As it is, DA:I was a big place to get lost in and wander around pointlessly until thoroughly bored.

 

I'm keeping my expectations high. Bioware has proven they are first rate at each component; let's see them bring it all together for ME:A. 

[Drakoriz]

lol this threat become something subreal. LoL is worst that the silence protagonist threat

[Cyonan]

Don't put words in my mouth please. If you answered the former, I'd ask why you felt that way, what it adds to the game to justify its inclusion.

 

Frankly, I disagree with your assertion that visibly seeing something establishes it any better than visually implying it. Even if that were the case, the problem would still be that Shep's romances are not the focus of the game. The focus of the game is "shep and co. go on a galactic adventure to stop the big bads." Showing shep and another character sitting there having awfully animated sex doesn't add to the relationship, it just detracts from the narrative. It'd be like if they felt the need to include a steamy sex seen in the empire strikes back between han and leia. 

 

Thing is, it's a game that's meant for a bit of roleplaying in between the action scenes and being able to establish relationships, romantic and otherwise, is a part of that. I'm more of a fan of showing in a video game when it comes to most things(and not just for the poorly animated boobs =P) and there's always the bit of having post-sex dialogue which feels really weird when they randomly have put their clothes back on. Maybe Tali has an excuse, but not the rest of them.

 

At the very least I would say it doesn't actually detract from the narrative, even if it might not add anything to the main story arc. It's not like it's a very long scene, and you can skip them.

 

lol this threat become something subreal. LoL is worst that the silence protagonist threat

 

That multi quote battle between myself, Robot, and Sylvius was epic and you know it =P

[Eelectrica]

What I take out of the thread is to wait for trusted reviews before deciding whether to buy the game or not.
Good thread OP. Always good to be reminded to ignore the marketers and make informed decisions instead.

[Amplitudelol]

Don't put words in my mouth please. If you answered the former, I'd ask why you felt that way, what it adds to the game to justify its inclusion.

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Frankly, I disagree with your assertion that visibly seeing something establishes it any better than visually implying it. Even if that were the case, the problem would still be that Shep's romances are not the focus of the game. The focus of the game is "shep and co. go on a galactic adventure to stop the big bads." Showing shep and another character sitting there having awfully animated sex doesn't add to the relationship, it just detracts from the narrative. It'd be like if they felt the need to include a steamy sex seen in the empire strikes back between han and leia. 

 

Want relationship? Go out and meet woman! Mass Effect is for space bros!

[Il Divo]

Not at all. Everytime you shoot an enemy, it is for the purpose of getting that enemy out of your way so you can proceed forward, thus propelling the story forward.

 

To be blunt, I think that's a very much lazy explanation we'd have to employ. I think it's about as useful a standard as saying that the reason we have to watch Shepard eat every few hours is because it serves the purpose of giving him the energy he needs to chase Saren. 

[von uber]

To be blunt, I think that's a very much lazy explanation we'd have to employ. I think it's about as useful a standard as saying that the reason we have to watch Shepard eat every few hours is because it serves the purpose of giving him the energy he needs to chase Saren.

Quite. You could quite easily cut out most of the combat from me3 without it affecting the story one bit, like you can cut out Shep going to the bog.
Of course as we know though, violence is good, sex is bad.

[Pasquale1234]

To be blunt, I think that's a very much lazy explanation we'd have to employ. I think it's about as useful a standard as saying that the reason we have to watch Shepard eat every few hours is because it serves the purpose of giving him the energy he needs to chase Saren.

I don't disagree with your conclusion wrt Lord Kiran's "standard", just the reasoning stated here.

Having to watch Shepard eat every few hours would be comparable to watching sex scenes. The player is merely watching Shepard go about her/his business.

If feeding Shepard were a mini-game of some sort (actual gameplay), then it might be more comparable to combat.
 

Quite. You could quite easily cut out most of the combat from me3 without it affecting the story one bit, like you can cut out Shep going to the bog.
Of course as we know though, violence is good, sex is bad.

Cutting out combat is cutting out gameplay.

[Lord Kiran]

To be blunt, I think that's a very much lazy explanation we'd have to employ. I think it's about as useful a standard as saying that the reason we have to watch Shepard eat every few hours is because it serves the purpose of giving him the energy he needs to chase Saren. 

When two characters with mutually exclusive goals intersect, the result is conflict. The shooting gameplay in ME3 is the result of said conflict. Nobody is going to stop shep from eating, so there's no conflict or drama there.

 

Not to be rude, but this should be immediately obvious.

 

So obvious in fact that it leads me to believe you know this but are choosing to be obstinate.

[Lord Kiran]

Thing is, it's a game that's meant for a bit of roleplaying in between the action scenes and being able to establish relationships, romantic and otherwise, is a part of that. I'm more of a fan of showing in a video game when it comes to most things(and not just for the poorly animated boobs =P) and there's always the bit of having post-sex dialogue which feels really weird when they randomly have put their clothes back on. Maybe Tali has an excuse, but not the rest of them.

 

At the very least I would say it doesn't actually detract from the narrative, even if it might not add anything to the main story arc. It's not like it's a very long scene, and you can skip them.

 

 

That multi quote battle between myself, Robot, and Sylvius was epic and you know it =P

The problem isn't even that it doesn't add anything to the game really, it's the reason it's there at all. I'm going to make an assertion that I cannot prove now, and whether or not you agree with this assertion is basically where our dialogue kind of ends. Bioware doesn't add sex scenes for any artistic reason or because they legitimately think the game is better for it. They do it because they expect the player to get something out of it. They do it because the fans want wish fulfillment and that's all the reason they need.

[Cyonan]

The problem isn't even that it doesn't add anything to the game really, it's the reason it's there at all. I'm going to make an assertion that I cannot prove now, and whether or not you agree with this assertion is basically where our dialogue kind of ends. Bioware doesn't add sex scenes for any artistic reason or because they legitimately think the game is better for it. They do it because they expect the player to get something out of it. They do it because the fans want wish fulfillment and that's all the reason they need.

 

I already noted what it adds to the game: A visual scene showing the advancement of the relationship. Could it be done with a fade to black scene? Yes, but actually showing it tends to have more impact. We're working with a visual medium here, why would we not use that to our advantage?

 

Maybe one of the biggest reasons BioWare does add it is because the player simply expects it out of their games at this point, but does that actually make it a bad thing? I'm pretty sure enemy's heads in Mass Effect 3 don't explode when you headshot them for any grand artistic statement either, so why have it? It gives your shots a feeling of greater impact to have it happen.

 

You made the claim that it actively detracts from the narrative but have provided no real argument as to why(as opposed to at most not adding anything and being a silly optional side thing for players who want it). You're simply just attacking the player and saying "If you don't agree with me, I'm done talking to you".

[Pasquale1234]

You made the claim that it actively detracts from the narrative but have provided no real argument as to why(as opposed to at most not adding anything and being a silly optional side thing for players who want it).

I can offer one: the more explicit the cutscenes, the more the character is Bioware's and the less the character is the player's to control.

This of course applies to all cutscenes, not just sex scenes - though, for a lot of people, sex is a deeply personal thing, and I think some people prefer how they might imagine the character would approach sex over Bioware's version.

[Elhanan]

As I understand, Tali was more mysterious before her reveal, and I personally liked her more as a romance more before the bedroom scene in ME2. Also, the poem from Hespith is so much more impactful than the visual of the Broodmother herself in DAO; the latter benefitting from the imaginary awakenings spurred by the former.

There is a lot to be said about Fade To Black, and not trying to illustrate everything on screen.

[Il Divo]

When two characters with mutually exclusive goals intersect, the result is conflict. The shooting gameplay in ME3 is the result of said conflict. Nobody is going to stop shep from eating, so there's no conflict or drama there.

 

Not to be rude, but this should be immediately obvious.

 

So obvious in fact that it leads me to believe you know this but are choosing to be obstinate.

 

But the vast majority of those characters ((and I use the term loosely here) are useless to the narrative. I don't really mind that you enjoy the shooting gameplay. But trying to peg it as "important" to the narrative is pretty weak. 

 

During gameplay, the "contribution" to the narrative is 1/10 dead mercs, then 2/10 dead mercs, then 3/10 dead mercs, so on and so forth. As I said, if that's how you define important to the narrative, it has remarkably little utility. Most of those mercs aren't fleshed out entities providing a deep, emotional context - they're bullet sponges designed to die when the player hits them enough. 

[Cyonan]

I can offer one: the more explicit the cutscenes, the more the character is Bioware's and the less the character is the player's to control.

This of course applies to all cutscenes, not just sex scenes - though, for a lot of people, sex is a deeply personal thing, and I think some people prefer how they might imagine the character would approach sex over Bioware's version.

 

Well I wouldn't say the explicit ones make it any more BioWare's character than any other cutscene that takes control of Shep.

 

While it's different from detracting from the narrative, we could probably still have an entire thread about how cutscenes detract from the ability to roleplay one's character(and ability to roleplay vs cinematic story telling in general). I wouldn't disagree with that argument either, as the cutscenes do take control away from the player which in the case of roleplaying is typically the last thing you want to do.

 

As I understand, Tali was more mysterious before her reveal, and I personally liked her more as a romance more before the bedroom scene in ME2. Also, the poem from Hespith is so much more impactful than the visual of the Broodmother herself in DAO; the latter benefitting from the imaginary awakenings spurred by the former.

There is a lot to be said about Fade To Black, and not trying to illustrate everything on screen.

 

I didn't actually find Hespith's poem have that great an impact. Likely because it was played while combat was going on, which I was focused on getting through the combat rather than paying attention to the dialogue going on at the time.

 

Although the reason why the visual of the Broodmother doesn't do much is because BioWare didn't do much with the Broodmother other than simply show it exists before promptly letting you kill it.