497 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

I don't disagree with your conclusion wrt Lord Kiran's "standard", just the reasoning stated here.

Having to watch Shepard eat every few hours would be comparable to watching sex scenes. The player is merely watching Shepard go about her/his business.

If feeding Shepard were a mini-game of some sort (actual gameplay), then it might be more comparable to combat.
 

Cutting out combat is cutting out gameplay.

 

This does bring up the awkward question: would players be more comfortable if the romance scenes were interactive, with options in terms of what they're doing? Technically-speaking that does solve the issue, but I honestly don't think this would dispel Kiran's criticism of it being gratuitous.

 

I definitely much prefer engaging in combat to Bioware romances, but narrative-importance isn't really a great starting point to explain why. Most of Bioware's combat exists so that we can enjoy killing things, more than anything else. 

[Lord Kiran]

I already noted what it adds to the game: A visual scene showing the advancement of the relationship. Could it be done with a fade to black scene? Yes, but actually showing it tends to have more impact. We're working with a visual medium here, why would we not use that to our advantage?

 

Maybe one of the biggest reasons BioWare does add it is because the player simply expects it out of their games at this point, but does that actually make it a bad thing? I'm pretty sure enemy's heads in Mass Effect 3 don't explode when you headshot them for any grand artistic statement either, so why have it? It gives your shots a feeling of greater impact to have it happen.

 

You made the claim that it actively detracts from the narrative but have provided no real argument as to why(as opposed to at most not adding anything and being a silly optional side thing for players who want it). You're simply just attacking the player and saying "If you don't agree with me, I'm done talking to you".

And I already pointed out how it was superfluous when a fade to black works just fine. So now we're at an impasse it seems.

 

As for the heads exploding? I hate that and always have, because it runs counter to the intended tone. (like much of the silly nonsense in ME3 for that matter). It makes zero sense for another. Why would cerberus waste money and materials on BS helmets that don't protect the head even slightly? Because action adventure tropes? it's like half the staff wants this to be like ME and the other half wants this to be like Warframe and they just can't decide on which.

 

Also yes I have explained how it detracts, because rather than just establishing the change in relationship and getting back to the plot, the games gets bogged down in these really cringy fan service sex scenes. Further you're putting words in my mouth again. Don't appreciate that. I didn't say I was done talking to you but rather, I have an assertion that I can't prove, but hold to be true based on past observations. You can agree, you can disagree. In either case I'm holding to this educated guess because it makes sense. Accusing Bioware of pandering to the fanbase is not an outrageous claim when we're talking about the people who put out a fan service DLC. Twice if you count the extended cut.

[Lord Kiran]

But the vast majority of those characters ((and I use the term loosely here) are useless to the narrative. I don't really mind that you enjoy the shooting gameplay. But trying to peg it as "important" to the narrative is pretty weak. 

 

During gameplay, the "contribution" to the narrative is 1/10 dead mercs, then 2/10 dead mercs, then 3/10 dead mercs, so on and so forth. As I said, if that's how you define important to the narrative, it has remarkably little utility. Most of those mercs aren't fleshed out entities providing a deep, emotional context - they're bullet sponges designed to die when the player hits them enough. 

They are an extension of your primary adversary in most cases, in others their goals just happen to run counter to yours. The mercs on Omega want garrus dead. You want him alive. Conflict ensues. 

 

The contribution of individual enemies may not be much but as a whole they serve a purpose to the narrative with the risk of death lending tension to the scenario (And ideally drama but not usually) The worst you can say about them is that they're an obstacle by design, one necessitated by the fact that this is a game rather than a movie/book, and consequently you need something for the player to do.

 

But at the end of the day, shooting a bad guy who's stopping you from proceeding to the thanix missles has more relevance to the plot than getting between Liara's legs.

[Elhanan]

The poem from Hespith also re-played as one approached her. Of course, this can be missed if one chooses to ignore either version.

[Cyonan]

And I already pointed out how it was superfluous when a fade to black works just fine. So now we're at an impasse it seems.

 

As for the heads exploding? I hate that and always have, because it runs counter to the intended tone. (like much of the silly nonsense in ME3 for that matter). It makes zero sense for another. Why would cerberus waste money and materials on BS helmets that don't protect the head even slightly? Because action adventure tropes?

 

Also yes I have explained how it detracts, because rather than just establishing the change in relationship and getting back to the plot, the games gets bogged down in these really cringy fan service sex scenes. Further you're putting words in my mouth again. Don't appreciate that. I didn't say I was done talking to you but rather, I have an assertion that I can't prove, but hold to be true based on past observations. You can agree, you can disagree. In either case I'm holding to this educated guess because it makes sense.

 

There's no saying that the helmets don't provide protection, but we're also firing rail guns on biotic steroids at them. The point is that they kind of have a lot of little things in the game that don't necessarily all serve the narrative or even the gameplay but aren't worthless to the game as a whole.

 

It's hardly getting bogged down in a 30 second scene that is completely skippable, which is the funny part: If you simply wanted fade to black you can get that by hitting the spacebar. It's also worth noting that DA:I was a fairly significant improvement in the area of romances in general, including the sex scenes.

 

You said "whether or not you agree with this assertion is basically where our dialogue kind of ends" which yes, I took to mean that if I didn't agree with you then you figured our discussion was over.

 

The poem from Hespith also re-played as one approached her. Of course, this can be missed if one chooses to ignore either version.

 

So I didn't choose to ignore the replaying of it, but I did forget that it does that.

 

Which pretty much explains how I felt about that poem =P

 

It's a visual medium. Simply telling me it happens isn't typically going to have as big of an impact on me as actually showing it happening.

[Lord Kiran]

This does bring up the awkward question: would players be more comfortable if the romance scenes were interactive, with options in terms of what they're doing? Technically-speaking that does solve the issue, but I honestly don't think this would dispel Kiran's criticism of it being gratuitous.

 

I definitely much prefer engaging in combat to Bioware romances, but narrative-importance isn't really a great starting point to explain why. Most of Bioware's combat exists so that we can enjoy killing things, more than anything else. 

you could argue that the sex scenes are there to be enjoyed but then that has some troubling implications too.

[Laughing_Man]

As for the heads exploding? I hate that and always have, because it runs counter to the intended tone. (like much of the silly nonsense in ME3 for that matter). It makes zero sense for another. Why would cerberus waste money and materials on BS helmets that don't protect the head even slightly? Because action adventure tropes? it's like half the staff wants this to be like ME and the other half wants this to be like Warframe and they just can't decide on which.

 

As for the realism of exploding heads, I think it should depend on the type of weapon used.

 

A pistol isn't going to explode heads, but an oversized anti-material sniper rifle, a Krogan designed shotgun, and explosive munitions,

most certainly have the potential to do so.

 

 

you could argue that the sex scenes are there to be enjoyed but then that has some troubling implications too.

 

Most game mechanics are there because they are fun in one way or the other. Why is it the thought of people finding enjoyment in sex scene so disturbing?

 

Everyone accepts the concept when it is a part of a movie, right? At the very least it's rather common. So what's the difference really?

[Lord Kiran]

There's no saying that the helmets don't provide protection, but we're also firing rail guns on biotic steroids at them. The point is that they kind of have a lot of little things in the game that don't necessarily all serve the narrative or even the gameplay but aren't worthless to the game as a whole.

 

It's hardly getting bogged down in a 30 second scene that is completely skippable, which is the funny part: If you simply wanted fade to black you can get that by hitting the spacebar. It's also worth noting that DA:I was a fairly significant improvement in the area of romances in general, including the sex scenes.

 

You said "whether or not you agree with this assertion is basically where our dialogue kind of ends" which yes, I took to mean that if I didn't agree with you then you figured our discussion was over.

I wouldn't know about DA:I I've never played so I'll just have to take your word for it. And honestly by all rights our discussion should be over since neither of our positions have budged and probably wont. I think the sex scenes were strictly added to appeal to the fan base. You disagree with that. That's as far as we've gotten since we've started really and there it will likely remain.

[Lord Kiran]

As for the realism of exploding heads, I think it should depend on the type of weapon used.

 

A pistol isn't going to explode heads, but an oversized anti-material sniper rifle, a Krogan designed shotgun, explosive munitions.

 

 

 

Most game mechanics are there because they are fun in one way or the other. Why is it the thought of people finding enjoyment in sex scene so disturbing?

 

Everyone accepts the concept when it is a part of a movie, right? At the very least it's rather common. So what's the difference really?

I don't. I roll my eyes and wait for it to be over. But then I guess I'm a decidedly cynical minority in that department?

[Laughing_Man]

I don't. I roll my eyes and wait for it to be over. But then I guess I'm a decided minority in that department?

 

I actually feel the same many times (especially when not watching on my own), but that's not the point.

[Lord Kiran]

I actually feel the same many times, but that's not the point.

I understand your point, and reject the concept. Not that you're incorrect, but I'd like to think Mass Effect is better than that...I'd like to, even though I know very well otherwise. Not everything needs to be charged with sex to the point where it just comes off as obligatory. Would Star Wars have been better with sex scenes? Or would you be wondering why there's a steamy romance scene in this simple science fiction film about a farmboy blowing up a giant laser gun?

[Laughing_Man]

I understand your point, and reject the concept. Not that you're incorrect, but I'd like to think Mass Effect is better than that...I'd like to, even though I know very well otherwise.

 

I'm not sure you do.

 

My point is that despite the fact that I might find it uncomfortable sometimes to watch a sex scene especially with an audience, I can understand the general appeal. I also think that sex shouldn't be pushed away as a shameful concept, and reject the religious dogma that claims otherwise.

 

I find the idea that mass effect should be "above" it rather puzzling. Personally I think that "fun" should only be restrained by a certain measure of realism.

But if things are not portrayed in a grotesque over-the-top manner, I don't see the problem.

[Wulfram]

Why would cerberus waste money and materials on BS helmets that don't protect the head even slightly?

As I understand it, helmets tend to be designed to protect from shrapnel and stuff like that rather than a direct hit from a bullet.

(Or at least, that's how it worked in WW1)

[Cyonan]

I wouldn't know about DA:I I've never played so I'll just have to take your word for it. And honestly by all rights our discussion should be over since neither of our positions have budged and probably wont. I think the sex scenes were strictly added to appeal to the fan base. You disagree with that. That's as far as we've gotten since we've started really and there it will likely remain.

 

This is an internet forum though. If we're not having discussions, then what's the point of it?

 

While maybe not strictly the only reason I don't actually disagree that appealing to the fanbase wasn't a major contributor to the reason for including, and continuing to include, the sex scenes in games. I also don't see that as being a bad thing.

 

I mean we play games because we enjoy them, right? I enjoy the story of BioWare games but I'm not here because of some artistic value to it. I'm here because Mass Effect is a fun game.

 

There are a number of things that didn't add to the overall narrative or gameplay but I'd still want in there. Usually for one reason or another but ultimately because I find the game more enjoyable with those things in them.

[Lord Kiran]

I'm not sure you do.

 

My point is that despite the fact that I might find it uncomfortable sometimes to watch a sex scene especially with an audience, I can understand the general appeal. I also think that sex shouldn't be pushed away as a shameful concept, and reject the religious dogma that claims otherwise.

 

I find the idea that mass effect should be "above" it rather puzzling. Personally I think that "fun" should only be restrained by a certain measure of realism.

But if things are not portrayed in a grotesque over-the-top manner, I don't see the problem.

Sex isn't inherently shameful and that has never been my argument. It's how it's used. In some stories, the sex is important to the story, because the story's focus is the relationship between two or more characters. Ala most romantic comedies. mass Effect is not a Romantic comedy. it's not a character study and it's not a daytime TV soapbox either. It's a heroes journey adventure story set in a science fiction universe. The only reason to include sex scenes isn't because it has some inherent purpose or importance to the story, but because you expect it to play well with your audience, when the story and gameplay should be what matters.

[Il Divo]

They are an extension of your primary adversary in most cases, in others their goals just happen to run counter to yours. The mercs on Omega want garrus dead. You want him alive. Conflict ensues. 

 

 

Note that we can cut out most of the violence and not lose a single element of the primary conflict.

 

 

The contribution of individual enemies may not be much but as a whole they serve a purpose to the narrative with the risk of death lending tension to the scenario (And ideally drama but not usually) The worst you can say about them is that they're an obstacle by design, one necessitated by the fact that this is a game rather than a movie/book, and consequently you need something for the player to do.

 

 

And everything you just outlined could be something that someone who is in favor of Bioware sex scenes would point to: players look at the final romance scene as the "culmination" of that narrative arc. 

 

But I'm going to take the bolded much further: the worst I'm going to say about them is that the vast majority of Bioware's combat is simply there to appease the fan base, with remarkably little having relevance to the overarching conflict. 

 

That's the difficulty of your claim. It's much harder to justify 10 hours (likely much more) worth of killing content under "narrative importance", when much less is needed to get the point across to the audience. As Cyonan points out, it's much easier to defend 30 seconds worth of sex content as "getting the point to the audience" than it is to do the same with how much violent content you're defending. 

 

But at the end of the day, shooting a bad guy who's stopping you from proceeding to the thanix missles has more relevance to the plot than getting between Liara's legs.

 

 

Well, not if getting in between Liara's legs gives Shepard the motivation to continue fighting. You essentially just provided a defense for both. If we don't need to see what's going on between Liara's legs (and I definitely agree we don't), it's kind of hard to imagine that we need to see Shepard kill a hundred plus mercenaries, all in the name of narrative tension. 

[Lord Kiran]

This is an internet forum though. If we're not having discussions, then what's the point of it?

 

While maybe not strictly the only reason I don't actually disagree that appealing to the fanbase wasn't a major contributor to the reason for including, and continuing to include, the sex scenes in games. I also don't see that as being a bad thing.

 

I mean we play games because we enjoy them, right? I enjoy the story of BioWare games but I'm not here because of some artistic value to it. I'm here because Mass Effect is a fun game.

 

There are a number of things that didn't add to the overall narrative or gameplay but I'd still want in there. Usually for one reason or another but ultimately because I find the game more enjoyable with those things in them.

Perhaps I'm too cynical for my own good then. Dunno.

[Pasquale1234]

Well I wouldn't say the explicit ones make it any more BioWare's character than any other cutscene that takes control of Shep.

I agree - though I do think that, for a lot of people, sex is a much more private matter than other behaviors that are primarily public.
 

While it's different from detracting from the narrative, we could probably still have an entire thread about how cutscenes detract from the ability to roleplay one's character(and ability to roleplay vs cinematic story telling in general). I wouldn't disagree with that argument either, as the cutscenes do take control away from the player which in the case of roleplaying is typically the last thing you want to do.

There are a lot of conversations that could be had about the relationship of cutscenes to narrative. I've always believed that the player nails down the narrative of any given playthrough via roleplay. I consider that the PC's motives, thoughts, feelings, etc., are part and parcel of the narrative, and some games do provide enough freedom and agency to create emergent narrative.

But cutscenes are very explicit in showing us the behaviors of the PC. The more cutscenes in a game, the more the narrative (and the PC) are defined by the developers.

It's something I carp about from time to time. I was satisfied with my ability to roleplay Shepard in ME1, but ME2&3 became so much more cutscene heavy that it felt like a genre shift.
 

I didn't actually find Hespith's poem have that great an impact. Likely because it was played while combat was going on, which I was focused on getting through the combat rather than paying attention to the dialogue going on at the time.

Hespith's poem was delivered line by line as you approach the area outside the Broodmother's den, where you meet Hespith. I found it brilliant and chilling, and the VA really sold it.

[Laughing_Man]

Sex isn't inherently shameful and that has never been my argument. It's how it's used. In some stories, the sex is important to the story, because the story's focus is the relationship between two or more characters. Ala most romantic comedies. mass Effect is not a Romantic comedy. it's not a character study and it's not a daytime TV soapbox either. It's a heroes journey adventure story set in a science fiction universe. The only reason to include sex scenes isn't because it has some inherent purpose or importance to the story, but because you expect it to play well with your audience, when the story and gameplay should be what matters.

 

That's just it, you can realistically have many elements in something like an action / adventure / RPG, without the need to restrict yourself too much.

 

But yes, in general if by giving up the romance in general we would get a better focus on other aspects of story-telling, I would agree in a heartbeat.

[Cyonan]

It's also worth noting that if we're talking about things that don't serve the narrative, most of the side quests could be removed because they don't provide any benefit to the narrative and actually probably detract from it more than a sex scene ever did.

 

It's kind of silly to figure that in Mass Effect 1 Shep runs off to handle a laundry list of people's day to day issues when it's supposed to be racing against the clock to beat Saren to the conduit. Even in Mass Effect 2 when the bulk of the side quests get tied into the main mission, you're now telling me I have to solve everybody's daddy issues or they apparently they wont be loyal enough to not die.

 

There are a lot of conversations that could be had about the relationship of cutscenes to narrative. I've always believed that the player nails down the narrative of any given playthrough via roleplay. I consider that the PC's motives, thoughts, feelings, etc., are part and parcel of the narrative, and some games do provide enough freedom and agency to create emergent narrative.

But cutscenes are very explicit in showing us the behaviors of the PC. The more cutscenes in a game, the more the narrative (and the PC) are defined by the developers.

It's something I carp about from time to time. I was satisfied with my ability to roleplay Shepard in ME1, but ME2&3 became so much more cutscene heavy that it felt like a genre shift.

 

Normally I would prefer more freedom to roleplay, but I think it just bothered me less in Mass Effect because I never really saw Shep as "my character" on account of not feeling like I got to define enough of their personality in even ME1. 

 

It's always felt like I'm just choosing between paragon Shep or renegade Shep as to which one I want to play as, because that's all the dialogue options give me as far as responding to NPCs go.

 

Personally I'd like to see more control over our character but as pointed out, I'm not sure how people would feel about a sex scene playing out like that.

[Lord Kiran]

 

 

Note that we can cut out most of the violence and not lose a single element of the primary conflict.

 

 

And everything you just outlined could be something that someone who is in favor of Bioware sex scenes would point to: players look at the final romance scene as the "culmination" of that narrative arc. 

 

But I'm going to take the bolded much further: the worst I'm going to say about them is that the vast majority of Bioware's combat is simply there to appease the fan base, with remarkably little having relevance to the overarching conflict. 

 

That's the difficulty of your claim. It's much harder to justify 10 hours (likely much more) worth of killing content under "narrative importance", when much less is needed to get the point across to the audience. As Cyonan points out, it's much easier to defend 30 seconds worth of sex content as "getting the point to the audience" than it is to do the same with how much violent content you're defending. 

 

 

Well, not if getting in between Liara's legs gives Shepard the motivation to continue fighting. You essentially just provided a defense for both. If we don't need to see what's going on between Liara's legs (and I definitely agree we don't), it's kind of hard to imagine that we need to see Shepard kill a hundred plus mercenaries, all in the name of narrative tension. 

 

The bolded statement doesn't speak well to bioware's regard to relationships. As if sex is in itself the sole end goal. The prize to be won by putting in kindness coins and listening to someone's daddy problems. Further watching a sex scene doesn't require the player to do anything, they passively watch and that's it.

 

Anyway in regards to the shooting and fighting. There's nothing to justify. For one reason or another there's an enemy in your way, you need to get him out of your way to get to where you're going. Stop overthinking it because it's honestly that simple. 

 

As for Liara giving shep the motivation to do what he does. He'd do it regardless of dating her or not. It's not as if you cannot beat the game unless you sleep with someone so your shep is properly motivated, making this dubious claim something akin to head canon. 

[Lord Kiran]

It's also worth noting that if we're talking about things that don't serve the narrative, most of the side quests could be removed because they don't provide any benefit to the narrative and actually probably detract from it more than a sex scene ever did.

 

It's kind of silly to figure that in Mass Effect 1 Shep runs off to handle a laundry list of people's day to day issues when it's supposed to be racing against the clock to beat Saren to the conduit. Even in Mass Effect 2 when the bulk of the side quests get tied into the main mission, you're now telling me I have to solve everybody's daddy issues or they apparently they wont be loyal enough to not die.

 

 

Normally I would prefer more freedom to roleplay, but I think it just bothered me less in Mass Effect because I never really saw Shep as "my character" on account of not feeling like I got to define enough of their personality in even ME1. 

 

It's always felt like I'm just choosing between paragon Shep or renegade Shep as to which one I want to play as, because that's all the dialogue options give me as far as responding to NPCs go.

 

Personally I'd like to see more control over our character but as pointed out, I'm not sure how people would feel about a sex scene playing out like that.

Absolutely correct! This is mostly due to how the games fail at connecting the side content to the main plot in a meaningful way. ME3 actually takes a stab at this through the ludicrous warscore system. Which is better than nothing I guess even if it's silly as sin. But no ME game really does this or even tries to do this in a way that feels organic. Not doing tali's loyalty mission will get her killed because...because reasons.

[Pasquale1234]

That's the difficulty of your claim. It's much harder to justify 10 hours (likely much more) worth of killing content under "narrative importance", when much less is needed to get the point across to the audience.

I agree with your points about narrative importance.

The real importance of the combat is to give the player the sense of earning success, "beating the game", earning level-ups, etc. In ME, combat is the primary gameplay offered. Also, any game that offers loot usually makes it available as a result of winning battles.

Or, as Isabela would say, "If we kill them, we get their stuff."

[Cyonan]

Absolutely correct! This is mostly due to how the games fail at connecting the side content to the main plot in a meaningful way. ME3 actually takes a stab at this through the ludicrous warscore system. Which is better than nothing I guess even if it's silly as sin. But no ME game really does this or even tries to do this in a way that feels organic. Not doing tali's loyalty mission will get her killed because...because reasons.

 

but the game would be certainly worse off for it if they just got rid of the side quests because they don't fit the narrative. The game would have a severe lack of content at that point.

 

The point here is that just because it doesn't serve the main narrative doesn't always make it bad for the game as a whole.

 

As for Liara giving shep the motivation to do what he does. He'd do it regardless of dating her or not. It's not as if you cannot beat the game unless you sleep with someone so your shep is properly motivated, making this dubious claim something akin to head canon. 

 

This is actually more of a roleplaying thing.

 

I know I just got done saying I didn't feel like Shep was my character, but many people still wanted to play as "their character". Their Shep would have their own motivations as defined by the person playing them. That they were with Liara may have been a big reason for their Shep to do what they did.

 

It does get into the head canon area a lot but that's an integral part of roleplaying, which Mass Effect is an action RPG. We do expect some roleplaying freedom here.

[AlanC9]

you could argue that the sex scenes are there to be enjoyed but then that has some troubling implications too.

Such as?