497 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Kiran]

but the game would be certainly worse off for it if they just got rid of the side quests because they don't fit the narrative. The game would have a severe lack of content at that point.

 

The point here is that just because it doesn't serve the main narrative doesn't always make it bad for the game as a whole.

 

 

This is actually more of a roleplaying thing.

 

I know I just got done saying I didn't feel like Shep was my character, but many people still wanted to play as "their character". Their Shep would have their own motivations as defined by the person playing them. That they were with Liara may have been a big reason for their Shep to do what they did.

 

It does get into the head canon area a lot but that's an integral part of roleplaying, which Mass Effect is an action RPG. We do expect some roleplaying freedom here.

I disagree, the side content is bad in that it doesn't relate to the main plot in a sufficient manner. However the solution isn't necessarily to remove it but rather to properly link them together. Although failing that I'd still say that removing the side content would probably be better if only so that ME2 could have had more focus put where it desperately was needed: the plot.

 

As for the role playing angle. I'm sorry, but that's just not the game ME3 is. Bioware has made it sufficiently clear that when push comes to shove, Shep is their character first. And that it is their role to dictate to you who "your"character is. I don't agree with that decision and think it's incredibly stupid, but that's the game you got.

[Lord Kiran]

Such as?

Mass Effect shouldn't ever have to suffer the indignity of becoming smut. Especially so when there's a thousand solo animators out there who presumably do it far better.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Sex isn't inherently shameful and that has never been my argument. It's how it's used. In some stories, the sex is important to the story, because the story's focus is the relationship between two or more characters. Ala most romantic comedies. mass Effect is not a Romantic comedy. it's not a character study and it's not a daytime TV soapbox either. It's a heroes journey adventure story set in a science fiction universe. The only reason to include sex scenes isn't because it has some inherent purpose or importance to the story, but because you expect it to play well with your audience, when the story and gameplay should be what matters.

 

How's it not part of the story? It's not like only romantic comedies ever had romantic elements in them. Tying romance to a larger story arc is incredibly common in fiction. And sex is just a part of romance that can sometimes be shown. 

 

I mean, cripes, the quintessential modern hero's journey story, Star Wars, has romance in it, in fact the romantic shenanigans surrounding the Skywalker family are a fairly big deal in the larger Star Wars universe. 

[Lord Kiran]

How's it not part of the story? It's not like only romantic comedies ever had romantic elements in them. Tying romance to a larger story arc is incredibly common in fiction. And sex is just a part of romance that can sometimes be shown. 

 

I mean, cripes, the quintessential modern hero's journey story, Star Wars, has romance in it, in fact the romantic shenanigans surrounding the Skywalker family are a fairly big deal in the larger Star Wars universe. 

They have romance sure but not sex (the movies anyway. I never bothered much with EU)

[Giantdeathrobot]

They have romance sure but not sex (the movies anyway. I never bothered much with EU)

 

And in works often aimed at adults (especially visual works), sex is part of romance. I don't see why only romantic comedies should feature sex. In fact, they often don't when they are rated G or 13+ at best. That doesn't seem like a convincing argument to me.

 

Seems like a case of you wanting an aspect of the story removed just because you don't like it. When there's a perfectly serviceable space bar for anyone to use if they don't like those scenes.

[Cyonan]

I disagree, the side content is bad in that it doesn't relate to the main plot in a sufficient manner. However the solution isn't necessarily to remove it but rather to properly link them together. Although failing that I'd still say that removing the side content would probably be better if only so that ME2 could have had more focus put where it desperately was needed: the plot.

 

As for the role playing angle. I'm sorry, but that's just not the game ME3 is. Bioware has made it sufficiently clear that when push comes to shove, Shep is their character first. And that it is their role to dictate to you who "your"character is. I don't agree with that decision and think it's incredibly stupid, but that's the game you got.

 

It would be better for the narrative but worse for the game because it would start lacking content at that point. A game isn't some purely artistic thing where only the story matters. The side quest is an important part of RPGs(action or otherwise) since it provides the player with a lot of extra content that they can decide if they want to experience or not.

 

The only thing that they really define solidly in Mass Effect is Shep's dialogue in that you have to be either paragon or renegade, which is what killed it for me but they leave pretty much everything else open to the player to head canon. They never dictate that your Shep can't have their LI as a major motivation for what they're doing.

 

However going forward into ME:A, I would like more freedom in RPing my character.

[Elhanan]

And in works often aimed at adults (especially visual works), sex is part of romance. I don't see why only romantic comedies should feature sex. In fact, they often don't when they are rated G or 13+ at best. That doesn't seem like a convincing argument to me.
 
Seems like a case of you wanting an aspect of the story removed just because you don't like it. When there's a perfectly serviceable space bar for anyone to use if they don't like those scenes.

Sadly, not all so-called mature content can be bypassed like that. Prefer it was not included to begin with, but can hope that insurance is made to allow it to be completely optional.

[AlanC9]

I disagree, the side content is bad in that it doesn't relate to the main plot in a sufficient manner. However the solution isn't necessarily to remove it but rather to properly link them together. Although failing that I'd still say that removing the side content would probably be better if only so that ME2 could have had more focus put where it desperately was needed: the plot.

What would a "proper link" look like? This is an old problem with RPGs. Conceptually, it's very hard to have optional content which is nevertheless important to the main plot. ME2's approach wasn't bad if you could swallow the non-rationality of the Loyalty mechanism. The ME3 approach means that most of the content is mandatory unless you are deliberately trying to do poorly or play MP.

[Cyonan]

Sadly, not all so-called mature content can be bypassed like that. Prefer it was not included to begin with, but can hope that insurance is made to allow it to be completely optional.

 

I would argue that every cutscene should be skippable, regardless of the content. Although I believe the sex scenes are all already skippable, so that's already dealt with.

 

It wouldn't solve anything if you believe violence is itself mature content, but that would be a much larger discussion.

[Elhanan]

I would argue that every cutscene should be skippable, regardless of the content. Although I believe the sex scenes are all already skippable, so that's already dealt with.
 
It wouldn't solve anything if you believe violence is itself mature content, but that would be a much larger discussion.

But this was not the case in some past few Bioware games. Cut-scenes that take several minutes that contain Interrupts, romances, profane speech, etc are not so easily skipped. But I agree that all cut-scenes should be skippable, for lack of a better term.

[AlanC9]

I would argue that every cutscene should be skippable, regardless of the content. Although I believe the sex scenes are all already skippable, so that's already dealt with.
 

I believe some of the DAI post-sex scenes include dialogue choices, and are not skippable if you get them to happen. The Sera scene is avoidable if you don't take Vivienne's advice, although I don't see how you'd know that without working from a walkthrough. I'm not sure Cassandra's and Iron Bull's are avoidable.

[Cyonan]

But this was not the case in some past few Bioware games. Cut-scenes that take several minutes that contain Interrupts, romances, profane speech, etc are not so easily skipped. But I agree that all cut-scenes should be skippable, for lack of a better term.

 

Well it's worth noting I don't actually like how interrupts work and think they themselves need a reworking.

 

Although unless dialogue is needed, I don't see how romance or profane speech would make a cutscene not skippable.

 

I believe some of the DAI post-sex scenes include dialogue choices, and are not skippable if you get them to happen. The Sera scene is avoidable if you don't take Vivienne's advice, although I don't see how you'd know that without working from a walkthrough. I'm not sure Cassandra's and Iron Bull's are avoidable.

 

Fair enough, I'm not really sure how you would avoid that.

 

It may end up being that they just have to choose to either include nudity or not in those post-sex scenes, and the player will have to live with the choice.

[Pasquale1234]

This does bring up the awkward question: would players be more comfortable if the romance scenes were interactive, with options in terms of what they're doing? Technically-speaking that does solve the issue, but I honestly don't think this would dispel Kiran's criticism of it being gratuitous.

That would certainly enhance roleplay (and perhaps gameplay) - though I don't know how well it would be received.

Another solution is to allow it to happen off-camera, much as Shepard's dining, sleeping, tooth-brushing, filling out reports, etc., does.
 

It's also worth noting that if we're talking about things that don't serve the narrative, most of the side quests could be removed because they don't provide any benefit to the narrative and actually probably detract from it more than a sex scene ever did.

Everything you can do in the game serves the narrative - because you're creating that playthrough's narrative as you play.

Which sidequests you take on and why, when do you do the content, all of these things create the narrative for that playthrough. Does Shepard check in with all of the squaddies after every mission? How often does Shepard deal with merchants, fiddle with squaddies' armor and weapon load-outs, etc.?

Is Shepard's behavior a genuine reflection of her inner state, or is she filtering / acting?
 

Normally I would prefer more freedom to roleplay, but I think it just bothered me less in Mass Effect because I never really saw Shep as "my character" on account of not feeling like I got to define enough of their personality in even ME1.

It's always felt like I'm just choosing between paragon Shep or renegade Shep as to which one I want to play as, because that's all the dialogue options give me as far as responding to NPCs go.

Sure, but the reasons behind the choices, thought processes, and feelings are part of it, too.

It was pretty clear even in ME1 that Shepard was Bioware's character, but the game was not nearly so much on rails and had far fewer cutscenes than later titles, thus more room for roleplay.

[AlanC9]

Mass Effect shouldn't ever have to suffer the indignity of becoming smut. Especially so when there's a thousand solo animators out there who presumably do it far better.

Indignity of becoming smut? What on earth are you talking about?

[straykat]

Indignity of becoming smut? What on earth are you talking about?

 

If he's talking about Krogan porn, then I agree with him.

 

No one should suffer that indignity, for that matter.

[Cyonan]

Everything you can do in the game serves the narrative - because you're creating that playthrough's narrative as you play.

Which sidequests you take on and why, when do you do the content, all of these things create the narrative for that playthrough. Does Shepard check in with all of the squaddies after every mission? How often does Shepard deal with merchants, fiddle with squaddies' armor and weapon load-outs, etc.?

Is Shepard's behavior a genuine reflection of her inner state, or is she filtering / acting?

 

I should clarify that we seemed to be talking about the main questline of the game. I get the impression from Kiran that they think it's pointless if it doesn't serve to further the main questline of the game.

 

Which in Mass Effect 1 the main narrative is Shep chasing down Saren, and that narrative is hurt by being able to go run off and pick flowers or whatever it is your Shep does in their downtime.

 

Although despite that I would still argue that it's good for the game as a whole to have all those side quests, and that they should not be removed.

 

Sure, but the reasons behind the choices, thought processes, and feelings are part of it, too.

It was pretty clear even in ME1 that Shepard was Bioware's character, but the game was not nearly so much on rails and had far fewer cutscenes than later titles, thus more room for roleplay.

 

ME1 did a better job of it, but the whole dialogue being only 1 of 2 options kind of just ruined it for me personally.

[FKA_Servo]

Indignity of becoming smut? What on earth are you talking about?

 

It was a good(?) thread while it lasted.

 

No, that can't be right...

[Pasquale1234]

Which in Mass Effect 1 the main narrative is Shep chasing down Saren, and that narrative is hurt by being able to go run off and pick flowers or whatever it is your Shep does in their downtime.

I gave you a like, because I agree with (or at least appreciate) much of your post, but I think I get a bit bogged down with terminology.

To me, narrative and story are different concepts.

In literature, we sometimes speak of narration as being first person, third person, omniscient, and the like. In an RPG, I consider the narrative to be told from the POV of the PC - and it includes their motives, ambitions, goals, thoughts, feelings, etc. All of that is stuff I'm creating when I play the game. Any optional or side content offers additional tools with which to express the character (create the narrative).

Take a dozen different people through an experience, ask each of them to recite the story of that experience, and you'll get a dozen different narratives - all purporting to relate the same story.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Bioware did open areas okay in Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

What Bioware screwed up terribly, especially in comparison to CD Projekt Red's The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt, is questing.

 

Specifically, the quality of quests storylines, quest characters are poor. Many of the quests in Dragon Age Inquisition feel like an offline MMO fetch quest.

 

If Bioware could learn a thing or two from CD Projekt Red about quest design and implement it in Mass Effect Andromeda, then the game will be good.

 

However, I don't have any hopes for Bioware. They are the sort of developers who will spend their time reinventing the wheel and trying to be politically correct instead of having good quest storylines, good quest pathway branches and good quest characters.

 

Heck, can anyone here imagine Bioware doing something like the Bloody Baron questline in one of their games ? Nope.

[straykat]

Bioware did open areas okay in Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

What Bioware screwed up terribly, especially in comparison to CD Projekt Red's The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt, is questing.

 

Specifically, the quality of quests storylines, quest characters are poor. Many of the quests in Dragon Age Inquisition feel like an offline MMO fetch quest.

 

If Bioware could learn a thing or two from CD Projekt Red about quest design and implement it in Mass Effect Andromeda, then the game will be good.

 

However, I don't have any hopes for Bioware. They are the sort of developers who will spend their time reinventing the wheel and trying to be politically correct instead of having good quest storylines, good quest pathway branches and good quest characters.

 

Heck, can anyone here imagine Bioware doing something like the Bloody Baron questline in one of their games ? Nope.

 

Those two go hand in hand to me. The open world design is made to be sort of theme-parky to begin with (like most mmos are). There's nothing to do with it except drop in little quests.

 

Open worlds when done like sandboxes are different... a lot of the content is emergent. You'll get some set quest givers, but even that can be unpredictable depending on what shows up in the area.. or what time of day.. or a variety of factors.

 

edit: It's pretty though

[correctamundo]

Bioware did open areas okay in Dragon Age Inquisition.

What Bioware screwed up terribly, especially in comparison to CD Projekt Red's The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt, is questing.

Specifically, the quality of quests storylines, quest characters are poor. Many of the quests in Dragon Age Inquisition feel like an offline MMO fetch quest.

If Bioware could learn a thing or two from CD Projekt Red about quest design and implement it in Mass Effect Andromeda, then the game will be good.

However, I don't have any hopes for Bioware. They are the sort of developers who will spend their time reinventing the wheel and trying to be politically correct instead of having good quest storylines, good quest pathway branches and good quest characters.

Heck, can anyone here imagine Bioware doing something like the Bloody Baron questline in one of their games ? Nope.

Most of the main story quests in DAI is better than the bloody baron.

[Il Divo]

The bolded statement doesn't speak well to bioware's regard to relationships. As if sex is in itself the sole end goal. The prize to be won by putting in kindness coins and listening to someone's daddy problems. Further watching a sex scene doesn't require the player to do anything, they passively watch and that's it.

 

 

Or it could be that sex (or marriage, alternatively) tends to be one of the final acts many couple enters during a more traditional courtship, hence there being more of a build-up surrounding it. Although I'd also point out that Bioware has been expanding away from that narrow confines: the Jack romance offering a key example, where simply sleeping with her is the problematic scenario. 

 

It should be mentioned out that your active vs. passive argument is different from suggesting "narrative integrity" as being the motivation. That would be more easily defensible, as an argument. 

 

 

Anyway in regards to the shooting and fighting. There's nothing to justify. For one reason or another there's an enemy in your way, you need to get him out of your way to get to where you're going. Stop overthinking it because it's honestly that simple. 

 

 

What's there to overthink? I'm not the one who claimed that killing hours worth of anonymous henchmen displays more narrative integrity than 30 seconds of sex. If you want to prove that, there are far better arguments than a vague appeal to narrative integrity. 

 

All you basically did was justify Bioware having a "skip combat" button, since anonymous henchmen aren't worth anything from a narrative stand-point. 

 

As for Liara giving shep the motivation to do what he does. He'd do it regardless of dating her or not. It's not as if you cannot beat the game unless you sleep with someone so your shep is properly motivated, making this dubious claim something akin to head canon. 

 

 

I'd suggest talking to many fans of the romance content, then. I suspect they don't think of their romance content as being irrelevant to the larger narrative. Although as Alan pointed out, the romance scenes have also become more interactive as a whole, rather than just passive observation. 

[Laughing_Man]

Most of the main story quests in DAI is better than the bloody baron.

 

DA:I has a larger scale, it's about "saving the world" and "chosen ones", etc. On the flip side, most of it had very little emotional impact. (at least on me)

 

The Bloody Baron arc is about a local problem, but the handling was much more mature, especially in the way it handled the characters and the implications. As a result, the emotional impact was much greater.

 

As for other aspects, I fail to see anything else "better" about the DA:I main quests.

[straykat]

The only thing the DAI plot does for me is ask "WTF were you thinking? Did you think I was 12 years old?"

 

 

Maybe they did at that. It's hard to blame them, after the complaints of DA2/ME3. All kinds of fans crying about how they weren't big goddamn heroes. So what did Bioware do? Give them what they wanted.

[correctamundo]

DA:I has a larger scale, it's about "saving the world" and "chosen ones", etc. On the flip side, most of it had very little emotional impact. (at least on me)

 

The Bloody Baron arc is about a local problem, but the handling was much more mature, especially in the way it handled the characters and the implications. As a result, the emotional impact was much greater.

 

As for other aspects, I fail to see anything else "better" about the DA:I main quests.

 

The bloody baron forces the player to endure the whining of drunkard combined with some rmb-spamming. I fail to see the maturity of it. If there were any emotional impact I failed to pick it up.