497 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

I would say rather than being a good examination of the role of organized religion in a setting, DAI is excellent at personal faith and self-identity. Leliana and Cassandra are good examples of this, as is the Inquisitor and spirit!Justinia in the Fade. There is no point where our realization of how we got the Anchor affects how the rest of Thedas sees us, we will still be treated as the Herald for the rest of the game.
 
Trespasser does tarnish our image, but that's more of a political reason than religious. One of our options is to remain as the Divine's personal guard, so the Inquisitor remains an influential figure in the Chantry.
 
I don't think the tired trope was really subverted that much. We find out we're not Andraste's Herald. We face inner doubts about our role now that we know we're not chosen. The game continues on with no visceral reaction from the general populace/Chantry about this revelation. Most likely, our advisors don't even allow us to make this public knowledge.
 
The only possible changes to organized religion in Thedas are due to the choice of Divine, not anything to do with the Chosen One PC. There's no real discussion about schisms in the populace divided between those who believe we're the Herald and those who don't. This should have brought about a Reformation-style rupture within the Chantry or at least discussed the implications of this, but even after we return from the Fade everyone still treats us as the Herald.
 
The game is very good in highlighting personal faith and belief, but I wouldn't say it's great on organized religion.

 
Part of the game's discussion is that it doesn't matter if you're actually the Herald or not, because people need you to be regardless. They need to believe that the Maker's on their side and that He's sent a representative to deal with the crisis. That's why Giselle manipulates the Inquisition after Haven into believing you're divine by singing the Dawn Will Come. This ties in with your belief that a lot of the game is about personal faith. I agree, but I find this is woven into the questions raised about not only the Chantry but also the Elven Gods. For example, I liked a moment in my human nonbeliever playthrough where I was discussing the Chantry with Cassandra. She had essentially admitted the Chantry was failing, and I suggested that we should let it fail and dissolve. She said that it may or may not deserve that, but Thedas had no institutions in place ready to replace the functions it served. It was a good point, and a well-appreciated one. My character had to concede. There's a big discussion amongst writers about avoiding religious strawmen; trying to present a viable argument for religion, but often imbuing characters with religious arguments that are simply there to be knocked down. Contrary to that, Inquisition takes care to take organized religion seriously, and provides a foundation for this discussion by making some of the most religious characters in the game also some of the most reasonable.
 

Also, I wouldn't say the PC is the opposite of a Chosen One as much as a variation of a Chosen One trope. We're still the only person with a unique ability that is required to save the world. Just because we received that ability by pure chance rather than divine intervention doesn't negate the fact that we're still the only one with the world saving ability. We're the Chosen One of blind luck instead of the Maker.

Well, now we're talking about being a Special Snowflake rather than a Chosen One. I agree that the Inquisitor is this, but honestly that trope is rather hard to avoid, and often the audience doesn't want the writers to avoid it anyway. Main characters almost always have to have some special thing about them to keep the audience invested in their success. It doesn't need to be a Rift-closing magic hand, of course, but it is a fantasy story after all.

[Squish]

I dunno, man. I'm playing DAI right now, which I was feeling a little reluctant about before. I've gotta say though, it's a very beautiful and immersive game. I look for Andromeda to, at least, be just as great as Inquisition.

[vbibbi]

Well, yeah, it's a subversion of its trope only to the extent that, say, Unforgiven was. Munny still ends up defeating the bad guys in a big-ass shoutout because, well, what else is there to do?

But the fact that reveal about the Anchor doesn't change anything is an examination of the role of organized religion in society.

 

I see the role of organized religion covered in the game by Mother Giselle and the future Divine's policies. Those are about how religion affects the physical world.

 

The reveal about the Anchor is about our personal faith. As Justinia says, if we didn't believe we were the Chosen One, then nothing has changed, and if we thought it was providence, then we can still have faith that Andraste/the Maker brought us to the right place at the right time. It's just one further step removed.

 

It's more about how we define our connection to religion and faith. Perhaps we're calling the same issues by different names, but I consider the role of organized religion in society as how the majority of the public is affected by religion. And there is no effect on the public in DAI based on the revelation in the Fade. The Southern Chantry remains (for now) as an institution across southern Thedas and is not changed by having a new religious figure in the Herald or the Inquisitor formerly known as Herald. The Inquisition either disbands or is folded into the Chantry by the end, no lasting change in organized religion.

 

I don't think there's even any change in Trespasser resulting from how we tell Josephine to share our revelations from the Fade, whether to tell the truth or keep up the illusion of divine providence.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I would say rather than being a good examination of the role of organized religion in a setting, DAI is excellent at personal faith and self-identity. Leliana and Cassandra are good examples of this, as is the Inquisitor and spirit!Justinia in the Fade. There is no point where our realization of how we got the Anchor affects how the rest of Thedas sees us, we will still be treated as the Herald for the rest of the game.

 

Trespasser does tarnish our image, but that's more of a political reason than religious. One of our options is to remain as the Divine's personal guard, so the Inquisitor remains an influential figure in the Chantry.

 

I don't think the tired trope was really subverted that much. We find out we're not Andraste's Herald. We face inner doubts about our role now that we know we're not chosen. The game continues on with no visceral reaction from the general populace/Chantry about this revelation. Most likely, our advisors don't even allow us to make this public knowledge.

 

The only possible changes to organized religion in Thedas are due to the choice of Divine, not anything to do with the Chosen One PC. There's no real discussion about schisms in the populace divided between those who believe we're the Herald and those who don't. This should have brought about a Reformation-style rupture within the Chantry or at least discussed the implications of this, but even after we return from the Fade everyone still treats us as the Herald.

 

The game is very good in highlighting personal faith and belief, but I wouldn't say it's great on organized religion.

 

 

Also, I wouldn't say the PC is the opposite of a Chosen One as much as a variation of a Chosen One trope. We're still the only person with a unique ability that is required to save the world. Just because we received that ability by pure chance rather than divine intervention doesn't negate the fact that we're still the only one with the world saving ability. We're the Chosen One of blind luck instead of the Maker.

 

The main problem with Trespasser was forced storyline. Weekes doesn't want to have to account for the Inquisition anymore, so he made each one a power-hungry totalitarian regime that has been corrupted to its core right under your nose so that the nobles would act against it and force it to disband to the Chantry, which is the only outcome no matter what you picked. This is the main reason why Trespasser was a terrible DLC. Many people think that Trespasser is the best DLC ever but its one of the poorest DLC ever made. There was so much forced narrative going on in it.

 

IMO, the best DLC for DAI is Jaws of Hakkon. It is optional like DLCs are supposed to be, unlike Trespasser which is pretty much mandatory if you want to know where the story is going. There is no forced narrative taking place in Jaws of Hakkon. The lore dump in Jaws of Hakkon was also done far more masterfully compared to Trespasser which just shoved a ton of lore on your face the last half and hour of the game.

 

Trippy Trespasser is a mess. Sad !

[vbibbi]

 
Part of the game's discussion is that it doesn't matter if you're actually the Herald or not, because people need you to be regardless. They need to believe that the Maker's on their side and that He's sent a representative to deal with the crisis. That's why Giselle manipulates the Inquisition after Haven into believing you're divine by singing the Dawn Will Come. This ties in with your belief that a lot of the game is about personal faith. I agree, but I find this is woven into the questions raised about not only the Chantry but also the Elven Gods. For example, I liked a moment in my human nonbeliever playthrough where I was discussing the Chantry with Cassandra. She had essentially admitted the Chantry was failing, and I suggested that we should let it fail and dissolve. She said that it may or may not deserve that, but Thedas had no institutions in place ready to replace the functions it served. It was a good point, and a well-appreciated one. My character had to concede. There's a big discussion amongst writers about avoiding religious strawmen; trying to present a viable argument for religion, but often imbuing characters with religious arguments that are simply there to be knocked down. Contrary to that, Inquisition takes care to take organized religion seriously, and provides a foundation for this discussion by making some of the most religious characters in the game also some of the most reasonable.
 

Well, now we're talking about being a Special Snowflake rather than a Chosen One. I agree that the Inquisitor is this, but honestly that trope is rather hard to avoid, and often the audience doesn't want the writers to avoid it anyway. Main characters almost always have to have some special thing about them to keep the audience invested in their success. It doesn't need to be a Rift-closing magic hand, of course, but it is a fantasy story after all.

 

Okay thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree with your examples of Cassandra's discussion of the role the Chantry serves as a humanitarian organization (to a greater or lesser degree of success depending on whom you ask) and the need for people to believe we're sent by the Maker in these chaotic times. And I was impressed that the writing didn't present fallible strawmen arguments about organized religion but allowed the player to make up their own minds about its role.

 

I guess I see it more as personal belief because that's where we as the player have the open-ended choices on how to consider our role as Chosen One. We don't need to have the final answer on the identity of Fade!Justinia and whether she was the soul of the woman or a spirit emulating her. We don't need to know if the Maker is a real entity and whether it is involved in the world or a passive observer. It's about doing what we can in the world and making a difference any way we can, and however we choose to motivate our actions, through God, self interest, loved ones, moral code, etc., what's important is that we act.

 

While there are discussions about organized religion, it's more passive as there's no threat that we actually abolish the Chantry or see zealots rage across southern Thedas in our name or hand pick the new Divine to be our puppet. We have the Chantry as an antagonist at the start of the game but that is quickly eclipsed as the remains of the Chantry is powerless against us and is forgotten outside of war table missions and Mother Giselle (who is herself, along with Cassandra, sidelined as soon as we reach Skyhold). Even the cult in the Hinterlands has no real impact. They worship a rift, then they see that we are the real deal and spread the word of our deeds. We don't hear of them coming into conflict with traditionalists or proselytizing and converting new followers or sending zealots to Skyhold to fight for us. They fall off the screen as soon as we leave.

 

So the idea of the role of organized religion is present, but not in a dynamic way which I think the story could easily have adopted. It's static in considering our PC the Chosen One who will face the Big Evil and save the world the same way other games do so. Shepard is mockingly called Space Jesus for his/her role in uniting the galaxy against the Reapers and effectively being a Chosen One figure despite no one claiming s/he had divine intervention on their side. It seems a common theme in RPGs that regardless of the source of our ability to stop the Big Bad, people will consider the hero as sent through Destiny to save the world/galaxy.

[AlanC9]

And there is no effect on the public in DAI based on the revelation in the Fade.

Did the public actually "find out" about that? Or is that story coming across as just another rumor which they don't believe?

[KaiserShep]

The main problem with Trespasser was forced storyline. Weekes doesn't want to have to account for the Inquisition anymore, so he made each one a power-hungry totalitarian regime that has been corrupted to its core right under your nose so that the nobles would act against it and force it to disband to the Chantry, which is the only outcome no matter what you picked. This is the main reason why Trespasser was a terrible DLC. Many people think that Trespasser is the best DLC ever but its one of the poorest DLC ever made. There was so much forced narrative going on in it.

 

IMO, the best DLC for DAI is Jaws of Hakkon. It is optional like DLCs are supposed to be, unlike Trespasser which is pretty much mandatory if you want to know where the story is going. There is no forced narrative taking place in Jaws of Hakkon. The lore dump in Jaws of Hakkon was also done far more masterfully compared to Trespasser which just shoved a ton of lore on your face the last half and hour of the game.

 

Trippy Trespasser is a mess. Sad !

 

 

One of the poorest ever made? I think I'm gonna have Zap curb your ryncol limit. 

[The Hierophant]

One of the poorest ever made? I think I'm gonna have Zap curb your ryncol limit. 

Nah keep em comin. No amount of drink will make me forget the horse armor dlc.

 

 

[Oldren Shepard]

Wait 10 more days and see

[von uber]

Funny isnt it. Yet again we have people decrying sex or nudity, yet defending people getting killed.

I really cant understand it from this side of the pond.

[Il Divo]

Nah keep em comin. No amount of drink will make me forget the horse armor dlc.

 

 

Drinking might not make us forget, but Darker than Black makes everything better. 

[straykat]

What makes Solas a great villain is he doesn't feel like a villain, and that's not just because he was a former ally. He feels like a living person instead of just Corypheus's 'blah I'm evil' shtick. Solas is closer to that of a character like Loghain, though not held back by supposed mental issues.

 

Solas was already screwed up to me the first day I played..

 

Just for the "Spirits" nonsense. The only people who wouldn't see the bad coming are hippies, who somehow see the good in everything. It doesn't work otherwise.

 

Granted, Bioware has it's fair share of hippy fans. Maybe Patrick Weekes knows that. It's kind of like Synthesis fans.

 

 

The only villains I've liked are Loghain and the Arishok. Nothing recently.

[Il Divo]

One of the poorest ever made? I think I'm gonna have Zap curb your ryncol limit. 

 

I'm still having trouble getting past the "it's optional, like dlc's are supposed to be". 

[KaiserShep]

Solas was already screwed up to me the first day I played..

 

Just for the "Spirits" nonsense. The only people who wouldn't see the bad coming are hippies, who somehow see the good in everything. It doesn't work otherwise.

 

Granted, Bioware has it's fair share of hippy fans. Maybe Patrick Weekes knows that. It's kind of like Synthesis fans.

 

 

The only villains I've liked are Loghain and the Arishok. Nothing recently.

 

 

Solas isn't unaware of the negative aspects of it, but his perspective is one from a powerful ancient that lived in a world where magic was everywhere. Why wouldn't he consider most matters of spirts to be largely positive? Because it poses more of a danger to the plebes that he largely considered to be like tranquil? He knows that his old world would be exceptionally bad for them; he's just not letting that idea get in the way.

[straykat]

Solas isn't unaware of the negative aspects of it, but his perspective is one from a powerful ancient that lived in a world where magic was everywhere. Why wouldn't he consider most matters of spirts to be largely positive? Because it poses more of a danger to the plebes that he largely considered to be like tranquil? He knows that his old world would be exceptionally bad for them; he's just not letting that idea get in the way.

 

I don't care what Solas thinks. I care what I think. But unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I think. He's a forced companion.. I probably would have booted him when I originally played, if I could. 

 

Since the great majority of Bioware players are either super inclusive or just geeks who don't get out enough, he's going to be accepted. The former are openminded types and the latter are people who don't value the real world or sensory experiences enough... so naturally, a character like Solas would appeal to them. His entire vision would sound intriguing and imaginative.

 

And that's the only way the drama with Solas works. He appeals to specific personalities...and when he turns on them, it's a big deal. But anyone else doesn't give a ****. They already got turned off by him right away. He doesn't "turn" on them so much as they did that themselves to begin with.

[KaiserShep]

If it means anything, you can already play an Inquisitor that doesn't really care what Solas thinks, especially in the very end of Trespasser, where you can outright tell him that you don't care what he thinks. But I'm not sure what the complaint is really about. 

[straykat]

If it means anything, you can already play an Inquisitor that doesn't really care what Solas thinks, especially in the very end of Trespasser, where you can outright tell him that you don't care what he thinks. But I'm not sure what the complaint is really about. 

 

I'm saying this drama is anti-climatic, when you already don't care about the guy. It's for fans.... and fans alone.

 

The whole choice of even having him around is stupid for others...well before the DLC. And from what i understand, the story was originally conceived without him tied so closely to the player. It would have been better off that way. It changed when extra races were added. I chalk it up to another thing that screwed the whole game up... just so people could have that feature.

[Cunning Villain]

I dunno, man. I'm playing DAI right now, which I was feeling a little reluctant about before. I've gotta say though, it's a very beautiful and immersive game. I look for Andromeda to, at least, be just as great as Inquisition.

 

Ha, "great."

 

Drinking might not make us forget, but Darker than Black makes everything better. 

 

An anime gone too soon, and my continuing disappointment is compounded by the near endless list of moronic shows which have been pumping out episodes since the Jurassic period. Darker than Black should've run for at least two more seasons. I wanted more of Hei and Yin.

[Il Divo]

Ha, "great."

 

 

An anime gone too soon. Should've run for at least two more seasons. I wanted more Hei and Yin.

 

Agreed. Darker than Black just caught me off-guard when I watched it: I'd never heard a thing about it, but it just came together so well. I was really surprised when the creator said he thought the series was complete with Season 2. I enjoyed it, but it seemed much more of a cliff-hanger ending than Season 1 did. 

[straykat]

It seems like a lot of anime is like that to me... they end on strange notes.

 

Not so much the movies (2 hr stuff).

[Cunning Villain]

Agreed. Darker than Black just caught me off-guard when I watched it: I'd never heard a thing about it, but it just came together so well. I was really surprised when the creator said he thought the series was complete with Season 2. I enjoyed it, but it seemed much more of a cliff-hanger ending than Season 1 did. 

 

A friend of mine recommend it to me when I first started getting into anime―which wasn't too long ago, actually―and I'm very grateful to him for it. I was hooked from the opening scene, and my chief complaint is there wasn't enough of it. Mark of a great show, I suppose, but it's still disappointing.

[Elhanan]

Funny isnt it. Yet again we have people decrying sex or nudity, yet defending people getting killed.

I really cant understand it from this side of the pond.

Yet again we see the same meme from those that easily accept both, but I do not believe Geography has anything to do with their perceived prejudice.

[Il Divo]

A friend of mine recommend it to me when I first started getting into anime―which wasn't too long ago, actually―and I'm very grateful to him for it. I was hooked from the opening scene, and my chief complaint is there wasn't enough of it. Mark of a great show, I suppose, but it's still disappointing.

 

Oh wow, you got to open up with it? That's freaking awesome. If you're looking for a couple anime that scratch some of the same itch, definitely give Psycho Pass or Fate/Zero a shot. Might fill the void, at least to a small extent, especially Psycho Pass. 

[von uber]

Yet again we see the same meme from those that easily accept both, but I do not believe Geography has anything to do with their perceived prejudice.

It's not a meme, it's a fact.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Funny isnt it. Yet again we have people decrying sex or nudity, yet defending people getting killed.

I really cant understand it from this side of the pond.

 

This side of the pond ? You're from Europe then ? Relax, in a couple of decades Western Europe will be Eurabia or Europistan and then all the game will be in Arabic, the sex and nudity will be covered up to be politically correct and to not be offensive.

 

Either that or the EU would have morphed fully into EUSSR, depriving all member nations of their identity, their ability to choose their leaders democratically and clamp down on free speech. They have already started forcing tech companies like Facebook and Twitter to comply with "hate speech" laws.

 

Or both those things will happen and then you will be begging for USA, on this side of the pond, to come save your arses like the last two times you mucked things up.

 

 

Solas isn't unaware of the negative aspects of it, but his perspective is one from a powerful ancient that lived in a world where magic was everywhere. Why wouldn't he consider most matters of spirts to be largely positive? Because it poses more of a danger to the plebes that he largely considered to be like tranquil? He knows that his old world would be exceptionally bad for them; he's just not letting that idea get in the way.

 

Because in that same ancient world, all it took was seven mages to enslave an entire race of people for millenia yet the hipster talks about it as though it was amazing.