98 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonashes123]

This is my opinion and I have to express it. I read a article while trying to get the fullest potential out of iron bulls relationship and the bdsm aspect of this relationship was brought up in this article. She was talking about how iron bull was talking to the inquisiter about her or him responsibilites and him able to help her or him loosen up a bit about it. I know its small but I am a passionate gamer. Dragon age has brought a world in choas to us to help fix it. Its a beautiful thing. But people can't just enjoy the game play. Bioware is a really awesome game developer and made us fall in love with the characters. We even judge that. I hear all this crap about Dorian and how he's gay. Who gives!! They have made a diverse game with real world problems. I love these games and have since the beginning. Let the gamers play!!

[dragonashes123]

Just to let peeps know I am a woman. So I wanted to counter that arguement

[thats1evildude]

I don't quite understand where an "attack" comes into play. Perhaps try linking the article.

[Rel Fexive]

You seem to have missed out the part describing the "attack" on the romance. Considering your thread title, this would appear to be an important thing to include?

ETA: ninja'd

[Almostfaceman]

I see this ending well. 

 

[lynroy]

I just want to know what a 'femimist' is.

 

Bull romance isn't going to be for everyone. I tried it, didn't like it and moved on.

[straykat]

I just want to know what a 'femimist' is.

 

Bull romance isn't going to be for everyone. I tried it, didn't like it and moved on.

 

I don't even know the content of the romance.. It seems like it assumes the Player is so overwhelmed with power that they need to be humbled in their private time. It doesn't work for me because I think the whole path to success for the Inquisitor is ridiculous to begin with. It's hard to get this immersed.

 

What that has to do with feminism, I have no clue I can't imagine what she'd have against it.

[dragonashes123]

K to make myself clear. I didn't like the fact she judged the whole experience off of one small thing. The controlling aspect of iron bull was her main issue. The game is meant to be different. Something out of the norm. So to honest I thinks its stupid. Does that clears things up.

[dragonashes123]

Misspelled feminist. So my bad.

[dragonashes123]

Its was a feminist site.

[dragonashes123]

https://femhype.com/...n-bull-romance/

[dragonashes123]

Well everyone is different. I just didn't agree with her view. I am more open then most and I truly love dragon age. I look at this as a insult while others could see it different. That's the beauty of being human. Good note peeps. I apologize for getting defensive.

[Vilegrim]

That...wasn't an attack.  She made a a point, fairly well I thought, and used it to talk about similar events in the real world, also she seems to like the writing and the game more than I do

[Voidinist]

I read the article. I don't see why her having a problem with Bull's presumptuous "You're like this so you must like this, I'll accept nothing else" approach is anything for you to be insulted over. It's just her personal dislike.

 

tbh, I don't like it, either. "You're short and scrawny so you don't get to do this", "You're a woman so you should like this", "You're the stressed out leader so you need to be a bottom to take a load off!", etc. The psychobabble is obnoxious and I don't NEED my sexual preferences hand-picked by someone else. For those who really dislike it, it's hard not to judge the whole romance on this one aspect since it's what the entire relationship is founded on with no way to reason or establish rules beyond a safe word that he chooses for us, too.

[Vanilka]

Quoting the important parts:
 

(...) in the romance, Iron Bull gives you a safe-word and plenty of chances to back out. The potential romantic relationship with him and the Inquisitor or with him and Dorian is definitely and refreshingly consensual.


I imagine at this point your senses are tingling. Like, what’s my point here? I’d like to clearly state that I don’t think that the writing of Iron Bull is problematic. (...)

No, I don’t have a problem with the writing. However, I do have an issue with a thing he says (we’ll get to that).

And why does she have a problem with the Iron Bull? Does she want anything gone from the game? Nope:
 

Bull assumes that your Inquisitor is into this kink for a reason and that he knows that reason. I have a massive problem with this because I’m a queer woman and, as such, am occasionally on the receiving end of similar psychologizations that people offer me, unsolicited, to account for how I got this way. I must have had a terrible relationship with my father. Or perhaps with my mother. I must have had bad experiences with men. It must have been the strict Catholic upbringing or the all-girls school or the feminism thing—and on and on until the sun (or I) explode.

If you’re into BDSM and disclose this fact, you might be treated to an equally irritating laundry list of explanations for your interests. I brought up the problem I had with Bull’s dialogue at a party to this girl, who’s into BDSM. In the conversation that sprung from that, she said that she absolutely hates when other members of the BDSM community assume that she can’t be a top because of her height and her being a woman. Yeah.

(...)

In times like this, I like to turn to the words of Isabela, god among pirates. “They don’t know me,” she tells Aveline, “I know me.”

Again, I’d like to restate that I don’t have the problem with the writing.

 

Basically, from what I understood, she does not have issues with the romance or the Iron Bull as a character at all, but the Iron Bull as a BDSM partner and a person. She talks about an issue she and others experience in real life and why that is problematic in real life. At no point does she state that it shouldn't be in the game or that she'd like to see it removed. In fact, she accepts it as legit part of the game's writing and says as much multiple times. She merely explains (to others that haven't gone through the same experience and might not realise this) how this attitude is harmful and offensive in real life, using the game and Bull as an example. I see it more as a general complaint about people making assumptions, assuming that they know you and what's good for you, rather than a complaint about the game and its writing. (But I realise the title of the article might be misleading.)
 
All in all, a well-articulated post about a real world issue that uses the Iron Bull as its stepping stone. What she says by this is: "I hate when people assume things about me. They don't know me." Funnily enough, it has little to do with the game itself.

I know you mean well, OP, but I truly don't think the lady's complaining about the game. False alarm. Keep up the critical thinking, though.

[Vanilka]

Well everyone is different. I just didn't agree with her view. I am more open then most and I truly love dragon age. I look at this as a insult while others could see it different. That's the beauty of being human. Good note peeps. I apologize for getting defensive.

 

I think there's just a bit of misunderstanding going on. I can see how that could happen, I suppose. Either way, I think the game's safe. BTW, DA is my favourite, too! Anyway, I'd like to commend you for being cool about it and about this discussion. Great attitude to have!

[Dai Grepher]

The Iron Bull "romance" was a last minute rush job. I don't think character quality and plot depth were to be expected. Also keep in mind that it was written by someone who had no clue about that fetish.

I have never even approached the "romance", and I probably never will. But the vibe I got from the videos I've seen on it or the dialogue I've read, is that BioWare wanted to make this interaction more of a story about Bull rather than the Inquisitor. It was basically showing Bull's abilities in regard to sexual gratification. There is an early crowd banter in Haven of a Chantry sister indulging in the Bull's more personal services. Bull's codex is a letter of referral that makes note of his intimate practices. His banter with Dorian if neither are romanced quickly turn toward innuendo. Even the Nightmare jokes about it.

So this all stems from how Iron Bull was written to be. The "romance" was added at the last minute, so of course it will mostly just expand out Bull's story. It would have taken too much time to write various paths for the Inquisitors. Instead we are given Bull's story and there is a chance to steer (no pun intended) him toward a path that is more personal and emotional.

[Statare]

Yeah I did not read that as critical of Iron Bull on the whole.

 

Just there is a slightly weird moment where Bull assumes he knows what you need. Which, in general, is not the best assumption to make.

 

From a writing perspective, I thought this line was one of Bull's most interesting, because it implied some issues of agency and control Bull felt in the Qun (or feels), and that he was projecting onto other people. In real life, people tend to do this with out thinking, where they project their desires onto other people assuming that they know how other people would act, so I thought it was actually good writing. Because it fit with his character. It seemed like something he would say. People do take psychological baggage from outside the bedroom into the bedroom with them.

 

I know with romances it is a difficult subject to navigate, what with wanting to "satisfy" (ew) people, write a good character, and not do something problematic. If the writers always played it too safe, the characters would only focus on satisfying us in the romance, which no one wants. Just look at how popular the Solas romance became, people liked the drama. Solas assumes he knows what is best for you as well, what with the Vallaslin and his going to actually kill you.

 

And that's kind of the disparity. Bull's assuming tends to rub people the wrong way more than Solas', and I think that has something to do with us as a society being way more used to seeing relationships like Solas and the Inquisitor where most the drama/mannipulation plays out outside the bedroom, where as Bull and the Inquisitor are mostly concerned with the bedroom. 

[Abyss108]

So, we needed an entire topic to complain that one person somewhere else on the internet didn't like a line of dialogue in the game? 

 

And that's kind of the disparity. Bull's assuming tends to rub people the wrong way more than Solas', and I think that has something to do with us as a society being way more used to seeing relationships like Solas and the Inquisitor where most the drama/mannipulation plays out outside the bedroom, where as Bull and the Inquisitor are mostly concerned with the bedroom. 

 

 

I think it's more because the game doesn't endorse Solas' manipulation/drama (not sure what you mean by he "assumes" though...). It's clearly treated as a bad thing in the narrative, and you have opportunities to call him out on it. Stories are based around people making mistakes and doing bad things, that doesn't mean the work supports these things. 

 

Whilst in the case of Iron Bull, it's a bad line of dialogue that you don't really get to respond to. I'm sure it wasn't intentionally written to come across the way has done, so you/the game don't get to really respond to it, making the game implicitly support the view.

[PapaCharlie9]

Setting aside the fact that that the writer lost all credibility by mentioning Fifty Shades in anything but a disparaging light, and that they also mentioned the sadism/masochism aspect when they meant the dominant/submissive aspect, I think the point about Iron Bull's unilateral shrinking of the Inquisitor is a fair one. That bit does seem a bit rushed and could have been written more sensitively. It's not that hard to imagine the Inquisitor wondering out loud why being dominated filled some need, or perhaps expressing some kind of shame for being submissive, and IB then responding to that with a positive intention. Even reluctantly, because, to the essayist's point, who is IB to be telling the IQ what he's thinking?

[AlanC9]

This is a legitimate criticism of an RPG, BDSM aside. The player should never be surprised to find out something about his own character's motivations.

[Andraste_Reborn]

The Iron Bull "romance" was a last minute rush job.

 

Not it wasn't. He was one of the originally planned six love interests, along with Cassandra, Dorian, Josephine, Sera and Blackwall. It's Cullen and Solas who were added during the extra year of development time.

 

(That doesn't mean you have to like his romance, of course, but there's no reason to think it was added more hastily than any of the other five who were always in the game.)

[Serza]

The good ol' days when being a feminist meant lobbying for gender equality, and not turning men into slaves... I miss it. (And fully agree with the equality bit.)

[Abyss108]

The good ol' days when being a feminist meant lobbying for gender equality, and not turning men into slaves... I miss it. (And fully agree with the equality bit.)

 

 

Um, who said anything like this? 

[Vanilka]

I love it when some people don't even bother to read the article or the thread, but they just MUST say something dumb anyway.