720 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

It's not a matter of losing content (although men did get shafted in Inquisition), it's a matter of arbitrarily sitting through a bunch of BS. Weekes admitted that he will not allow people to be "hurtful" (whatever that means) about the trans thing, and it's pretty weird considering the amount of people you can shank. 
 
Also, we're forced to accept it as true. Personally, I think it's, at best, a delusion.

I think that part of equality is treating anyone as the same and therefore (for gaming purpose) you should being able to shank whoever you want... but if that's Weekes' point of view...then it makes sense she was the sole survivor from the slaughterhouse on non-videogame characters the comics were.

[DuskWanderer]

We will never be able to shank who we want. If they are a part of Weekes's protected group, then we'll do nothing but say nice things, even if it makes no sense given what else you can do. 

[Battlebloodmage]

We will never be able to shank who we want. If they are a part of Weekes's protected group, then we'll do nothing but say nice things, even if it makes no sense given what else you can do. 

Yeah, protected group, despite Krem can be killed off in the game. You can say mean things, but just as you don't allow to say mean things about someone for being Black, the same should be for transgenders as well. If you were to insult them, insult their actions. You're fixating on insulting their gender is a reflection on you, not Weekes or Bioware. 

[Illyria]

But the biggest misconception about bi people is that they don't really exist, especially bi men. Having the bisexuality of the companion be virtually invisible (a problem people had with Kaidan too) doesn't solve much. I've seen multiple people refer to Danse as "straight fratboy," so again, this approach gives choice to LGBT players (which is awesome), but people who won't do that romance or hear about it from others, don't really register a bi character.

The only visible bi companions in FO4 are Cait and Hancock, and if you thought Isabela, Bull, and Zevran feed into the other popular bi stereotype concerning promiscuity (not all do, but I've certainly seen such opinions), then these two are also not that great for representation either.

 

I totally agree.  That's why I feel that Danse's writing - along with all the other companions -  could've been better in reguards to their sexualities.

 

Piper is also a visible bi character.  She gets adorably flustered if she meets Magnolia and she approves of the SoSu flirting with her (Magnolia, I mean.  Too many 'she's and 'her's in that sentence). 

 

I'd have liked Preston to have been a more visible bi character.  He's the nicest guy in the Commonwealth who battles against depression and trys to make the world a better place.  Definitely the sort of bi character I'd like to see more of.

 

I've seen a fair few people on this site praising Bethesda for the way they do romances in Skyrim and Fallout but while they are giving the choice to LGBT+ players, they're not giving real representation.  Bioware are at least trying to do that with their games.

 

Anyway, this is offtopic: Mae is awesome and I want her in my party next game.

[Battlebloodmage]

I totally agree.  That's why I feel that Danse's writing - along with all the other companions -  could've been better in reguards to their sexualities.

 

Piper is also a visible bi character.  She gets adorably flustered if she meets Magnolia and she approves of the SoSu flirting with her (Magnolia, I mean.  Too many 'she's and 'her's in that sentence). 

 

I'd have liked Preston to have been a more visible bi character.  He's the nicest guy in the Commonwealth who battles against depression and trys to make the world a better place.  Definitely the sort of bi character I'd like to see more of.

 

I've seen a fair few people on this site praising Bethesda for the way they do romances in Skyrim and Fallout but while they are giving the choice to LGBT+ players, they're not giving real representation.  Bioware are at least trying to do that with their games.

 

Anyway, this is offtopic: Mae is awesome and I want her in my party next game.

Real representation doesn't have to be just on the companions. There are gay and bi NPC characters throughout the game. 

[Illyria]

Real representation doesn't have to be just on the companions. There are gay and bi NPC characters throughout the game. 

 

Oh yeah.  That nameless lesbian couple right at the start.  And a dead lesbian couple in a DLC!  Much rep.  Such wow.

 

EDIT:

 

Sorry, that was a little harsh.

 

Yes, there should be more gay, lesbian trans and bi characters in the world.  But there should also be major lesbian, gay, bi and trans characters.

[Battlebloodmage]

Oh yeah.  That nameless lesbian couple right at the start.  And a dead lesbian couple in a DLC!  Much rep.  Such wow.

"Do they have to be companions? There are a lot of gay NPCs in the Fallout series. The lesbian couples in the beginning of the game, the Vault 81's Asian girl whose girlfriend cheated her out of her money and settled down with a girl. Mel is a gay guy who's only commenting on a male survivor. The lesbian couple skeletons in Far Harbor you can find embracing in bed. Fallout 4 is about open world and giving people options, so I understand there isn't a lock on romance like with Bioware games."

 

You're conveniently forgot about Mel who is a quest essential character and the Vault 81 lesbian girl, who are both definitely not nameless NPC. There are ambiguousness with Desdemona, Sam could very easily be her female lover when she calls her name before she died.

[Illyria]

"Do they have to be companions? There are a lot of gay NPCs in the Fallout series. The lesbian couples in the beginning of the game, the Vault 81's Asian girl whose girlfriend cheated her out of her money and settled down with a girl. Mel is a gay guy who's only commenting on a male survivor. The lesbian couple skeletons in Far Harbor you can find embracing in bed. Fallout 4 is about open world and giving people options, so I understand there isn't a lock on romance like with Bioware games.

 

"

 

Yeah, I edited my post saying I agreed with you that there should be rep throughout the world.  But I also want better rep in the major characters who are travelling with me.

[Medhia_Nox]

Isn't she a Magister?  Like... an actual government official (not just "Tevinter mage") 

 

She should be an NPC doing what her character is supposed to do... not running around like an adventurer. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Yeah, I edited my post saying I agreed with you that there should be rep throughout the world.  But I also want better rep in the major characters who are travelling with me.

That's depending on the game. Fallout 4 is about about freedom and choices, so it's not about representations, but it's about giving everyone choices to romance whoever they like. Beth games are different from Bioware in where they place their priority, choices vs characterization. There are many games that don't have any romanceable people, but important gay NPCs which should just be as valid. Fallout Vegas has a gay and a lesbian companion you can bring with. There are other NPC that are named and quests related throughout the Fallout series, and you could even get gay married in Fallout. Gay characters outside of player agency should just be as important as companions you can romance. I wouldn't mind gay leaders like Celene, who you can't romance but is known to be bi/lesbian. 

[Biotic Apostate]

This is an entire different discussion here. This is another person starts the conversation again about how straight guys should accept Mae as their dude exclusive romance, and that's the point I'm responding to. this is not even about catering to straight guys. It's about giving straight guys the appropriate options according to their sexuality, which include the physical aspect of the relationship. This is not about the panic conversation but about how some people think that if Mae were the straight option, straight guys should just shut up and accept it, not that Bioware would do that. Where are the people that terrified that BW's ultimate goal to fill the entire party with transgender? I only see the Evildude poster talking about that possibility, and people berate him for it for his preference. Of course, there are ignorant posters refuse to acknowledge Mae's gender, but I don't see any malicious intent from Evildude, and he said that he would be ok with Mae being an option outside of supposed 3 females with gay, bi, and straight setup. That should have been the end of that conversation, to be honest. 

In every thread about a trans companion, there are people (you included, I shall remind you), who start with the panic, that people are going to lose options. While you might argue with Illyria about the definition of straight men, nothing in that post suggested that Mae should not be an extra option, and yet you still brought that up in the part of your post that I quoted. People berate Evildude not for his preference (I can't speak for Illyria), but for his idea that BW would forcefully educate straight men. The "giant, veiny man-meat" post was also rather unnecessary.

 

Do they have to be companions? There are a lot of gay NPCs in the Fallout series. The lesbian couples in the beginning of the game, the Vault 81's Asian girl whose girlfriend cheated her out of her money and settled down with a girl. Mel is a gay guy who's only commenting on a male survivor. The lesbian couple skeletons in Far Harbor you can find embracing in bed. Fallout 4 is about open world and giving people options, so I understand there isn't a lock on romance like with Bioware games.

I can ask you the same about BW games. You are one of the most vocal critics of bi companions in BW games. There are loads of LGB NPCs in Dragon Age. Does that mean the companions are protected from criticism, like you suggest with FO companions? If you are satisfied with romance options and representation through NPCs, then why do you criticise that bi men in BW games rarely show same-sex attraction?

[Battlebloodmage]

In every thread about a trans companion, there are people (you included, I shall remind you), who start with the panic, that people are going to lose options. While you might argue with Illyria about the definition of straight men, nothing in that post suggested that Mae should not be an extra option, and yet you still brought that up in the part of your post that I quoted. People berate Evildude not for his preference (I can't speak for Illyria), but for his idea that BW would forcefully educate straight men. The "giant, veiny man-meat" post was also rather unnecessary.

 

I can ask you the same about BW games. You are one of the most vocal critics of bi companions in BW games. There are loads of LGB NPCs in Dragon Age. Does that mean the companions are protected from criticism, like you suggest with FO companions? If you are satisfied with romance options and representation through NPCs, then why do you criticise that bi men in BW games rarely show same-sex attraction?

Yeah, because stating an opinion is the same as being panic. That's like an overreaction over statements people make. It's a discussion, so sometimes I bring up points or opinions I feel like the game should implements, and the discussion keeps recycled so sometimes my statements get repeat. I bring it up it because she said if it happens to be the core option, straight guys should just accept that, and no, they don't. 

 

Beth games are not about pro-LGBT or anything, it's simply about giving people choices, and if you notice, I have often disagree with how out of all the male companions in Fallout, they all have attraction to females like MacCready similar to bi guys in Bioware, so I don't hold Beth with total immunity despite not focusing on the writing. I criticize it because they always jump to the default for bi males which is attraction to females, but I don't need them to have specific orientations for the companions in Fallout 4 because it's not what Beth's game designing philosophy is about. If there are bi NPC males that have attraction to other guys, then it would be pretty cool as well. If Beth has bi NPCs, I probably would have been just as critical in how they handle it. 

[Biotic Apostate]

Yeah, because stating an opinion is the same as being panic. That's like an overreaction over statements people make. It's a discussion, so sometimes I bring up points or opinions I feel like the game should implements, and the discussion keeps recycled so sometimes my statements get repeat. I bring it up it because she said if it happens to be the core option, straight guys should just accept that, and no, they don't. 

 

Beth games are not about pro-LGBT or anything, it's simply about giving people choices, and if you notice, I have often disagree with how out of all the male companions in Fallout, they all have attraction to females like MacCready similar to bi guys in Bioware, so I don't hold Beth with total immunity despite not focusing on the writing. I criticize it because they always jump to the default for bi males which is attraction to females, but I don't need them to have specific orientations for the characters in Fallout 4 because it's not what Beth's game designing philosophy is about. 

Clutching your two options and mentioning in every trans thread how it simply cannot cut into the "planned romances," while there's absolutely no reason to believe BW would do that is panicking.

 

"I criticize it because they always jump to the default for bi males which is attraction to females, but I don't need them to have specific orientations for the characters in Fallout 4 because it's not what Beth's game designing philosophy is about."

In short, you hold up Bethesda to different standards, and what you criticise in BW games, you are more lenient about FO companions. You actually defended MacCready, when we talked about Bull and bi companions. It's fine if you prefer FO4 romances, but there's some obvious bias going on in your posts.

[Battlebloodmage]

Clutching your two options and mentioning in every trans thread how it simply cannot cut into the "planned romances," while there's absolutely no reason to believe BW would do that is panicking.

 

"I criticize it because they always jump to the default for bi males which is attraction to females, but I don't need them to have specific orientations for the characters in Fallout 4 because it's not what Beth's game designing philosophy is about."

In short, you hold up Bethesda to different standards, and what you criticise in BW games, you are more lenient about FO companions. You actually defended MacCready, when we talked about Bull and bi companions. It's fine if you prefer FO4 romances, but there's some obvious bias going on in your posts.

How many trans threads that I participated in? Refresh my memories. Maybe you mistake my same posts for when I held the same opinion in regard to asexuals, but I don't recall that many trans threads I was in. 

 

Sure, I hold Beth to a different standard when it comes to choices. I'm more lenient because Bioware chooses to do set sexuality while Beth chooses to do freedom for all. If Bioware switches philosophy and give everyone choices then I don't mind. I defend MacCready because he's a good romance characters, and how I would like bi characters be written, and I also talked about the exception when it comes to how he obvious has a preference for girls. We both have own own biased opinions, I have one, and so do I, no need to state the obvious. 

[Biotic Apostate]

Yeah, I edited my post saying I agreed with you that there should be rep throughout the world.  But I also want better rep in the major characters who are travelling with me.

 

This video (thanks to Dalinne, who posted this in the MEA section!) explains, in a response to the criticism of a trans minor NPC in the BG expansion, why both flat and round characters are necessary. That also applies to representation. LGBT NPCs are nice, but they're mostly flat characters. We also need LGBT companions (which are always round characters) to get a full representation.

[Biotic Apostate]

How many trans threads that I participated in? Refresh my memories. Maybe you mistake my same posts for when I held the same opinion in regard to asexuals, but I don't recall that many trans threads I was in. 

 

Sure, I hold Beth to a different standard when it comes to choices. I'm more lenient because Bioware chooses to do set sexuality while Beth chooses to do freedom for all. If Bioware switches philosophy and give everyone choices then I don't mind. I defend MacCready because he's a good romance characters, and how I would like bi characters be written, and I also talked about the exception when it comes to how he obvious has a preference for girls. We both have own own biased opinions, I have one, and so do I, no need to state the obvious. 

I've seen you make that point in three threads already.

 

You really had a different tone about this, when we compared Bull to MacCready. But anyway, it's off topic, so let's, as usual, agree to disagree and move on.

[Battlebloodmage]

I've seen you make that point in three threads already.

 

You really had a different tone about this, when we compared Bull to MacCready. But anyway, it's off topic, so let's, as usual, agree to disagree and move on.

I remember 2, but it's my own memories anyway, you know me better than myself.

 

I remember talking about macCready and Steve Cortez. Sure, let's agree to disagree like usual. 

[Illyria]

That's depending on the game. Fallout 4 is about about freedom and choices, so it's not about representations, but it's about giving everyone choices to romance whoever they like. Beth games are different from Bioware in where they place their priority, choices vs characterization. There are many games that don't have any romanceable people, but important gay NPCs which should just be as valid. Fallout Vegas has a gay and a lesbian companion you can bring with. There are other NPC that are named and quests related throughout the Fallout series, and you could even get gay married in Fallout. Gay characters outside of player agency should just be as important as companions you can romance. I wouldn't mind gay leaders like Celene, who you can't romance but is known to be bi/lesbian. 

 

Media shouldn't need to be about representation to include people who aren't straight, white and male.

[DuskWanderer]

Yeah, protected group, despite Krem can be killed off in the game. You can say mean things, but just as you don't allow to say mean things about someone for being Black, the same should be for transgenders as well. If you were to insult them, insult their actions. You're fixating on insulting their gender is a reflection on you, not Weekes or Bioware. 

Try harder, little troll. Krem gets killed off along with everyone else. We're specifically talking about "not being hurtful" and forced dialogue choices about Krem's delusions. 

 

And we can insult people. Have you listened to the banter dissing the latin-inspired Antivans? 

[Battlebloodmage]

Try harder, little troll. Krem gets killed off along with everyone else. We're specifically talking about "not being hurtful" and forced dialogue choices about Krem's delusions. 

 

And we can insult people. Have you listened to the banter dissing the latin-inspired Antivans? 

Yes, he gets killed off because he's just a minor character alongside with other minor characters. It's interesting how one minor character gets you that flustered. I'm the troll and you're the one who call Krem's identity as delusions. Sound like someone has a guilty conscience. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Media shouldn't need to be about representation to include people who aren't straight, white and male.

Where did I say that? 

[DuskWanderer]

Yes, he gets killed off because he's just a minor character alongside with other minor characters. It's interesting how one minor character gets you that flustered. I'm the troll and you're the one who call Krem's identity as delusions. Sound like someone has a guilty conscience. 

The one minor character you're forced to acknowledge the delusions of, the same minor character the writer opines on about "not being hurtful" too. At least Dalish's is played as a joke, as it should have been. 

[Illyria]

Where did I say that? 

 

'That's depending on the game. Fallout 4 is about about freedom and choices, so it's not about representations, but it's about giving everyone choices to romance whoever they like.'

 

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying which is possible.

[Battlebloodmage]

'That's depending on the game. Fallout 4 is about about freedom and choices, so it's not about representations, but it's about giving everyone choices to romance whoever they like.'

 

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying which is possible.

Beth's focus is about giving people's freedom, so having gated characters by orientations would take away their game design philosophy. Bioware's philosophy is more on giving representations. That's how I perceive how each company approaches characters. It's not my philosophy but more about how I view each company's practice. 

[Battlebloodmage]

The one minor character you're forced to acknowledge the delusions of, the same minor character the writer opines on about "not being hurtful" too. At least Dalish's is played as a joke, as it should have been. 

Yes, not being too hurtful to who they are, you can insult them and kill them, but what does it have anything to do with them being a transgender? You judge a person by their actions, not their characteristics. I probably wouldn't have focused on the transgender issue at all, and just let transgender be just another character. Bioware was wrong for the right reasons, but you're wrong for the wrong reasons. You are obsessed over a minor character, talking about how transgender characters are untouchable despite how you could kill them. You have problem with their existence, and I doubt Bioware cares.