720 réponses à ce sujet

[Illyria]

Beth's focus is about giving people's freedom, so having gated characters by orientations would take away their game design philosophy. Bioware's philosophy is more on giving representations. That's how I perceive how each company approaches characters. It's not my philosophy but more about how I view each company's practice. 

 

But the game being about freedom of choice doesn't change that they could've given us a selection of characters who were visibly bi.  I've seen people use the 'playersexual' term when talking about the FO4 companions.  They're all bi/pan but the game doesn't make it clear.  (BioticApostate was saying how Danse is often thought of as straight, because it's not clear that he's also into guys).

[Battlebloodmage]

But the game being about freedom of choice doesn't change that they could've given us a selection of characters who were visibly bi.  I've seen people use the 'playersexual' term when talking about the FO4 companions.  They're all bi/pan but the game doesn't make it clear.  (BioticApostate was saying how Danse is often thought of as straight, because it's not clear that he's also into guys).

That's not really a Danse's problem. It's just the general assumption from most people with fictional characters that they're straight unless proven otherwise. It happens so often in comics, Shatterstar has almost no sexuality, and people was surprised he was made into pansexual. Aqualad is now gay, and people said they changed his sexuality when there was almost no prior indication that he's straight. Fallout 4 did give us a selection o characters who are visibly bi with Cait and Hancock. What they lack are bi male characters who show a preference to other males, but that's a common problem with all fictional characters, not just Beth and Bioware. 

[raging_monkey]

Weekes said lgbt content is here to stay now either deal and accept it or as he said find another game. From bickering over pronouns to a inane debates, it's a game meant purely for commercial entertainment. Everything starts somewhere deal. With. It.

Personal I'll take any content since again it's purely entertainment and I have a disposable income so this is really just a bunch of silliness

[9TailsFox]

No book or returning character for companions , fresh new characters for companions please. Character in game fine, but give me all information about character I need in game, don't assume I read comics/books (This coming from someone who read most books and comics).

[Andromelek]

No book or returning character for companions , fresh new characters for companions please. Character in game fine, but give me all information about character I need in game, don't assume I read comics/books (This coming from someone who read most books and comics).

According to Gaider, whenever they bring a character from the EU to the games they give it the same treatment than to a new character... And for me it does feel that way...in some cases, seems even out of character compared to the one displayed on the comic/book in fact.

[thats1evildude]

What they've got in their pants doesn't affect this.

 

Well, you can say that, but what's in Maevaris' pants is apparently a giant, veiny penis.

 

"Tolerance" and "sexual attraction" are not synonymous. If Krem had been the bisexual male LI instead of Iron Bull, would your advice be "suck it up" to the gay men complaining they're not crazy about vaginas?

 

It's only recently that writers (of any company) have started including content that isn't exclusively aimed at straight men.  So... if BW starts to consider it less important to create content aimed just at het men then deal with it.  You're still getting content.  The content is just being spread more evenly than it was before.

 

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." We had it good for many years, so now it's time for add two wrongs together and make a right.

 

We — as in lesbians, gay men and straight men — have been at the disadvantage in terms of romance content for the last two DA games. How is content being spread more evenly than ever before?

[Illyria]

Well, you can say that, but what's in Maevaris' pants is apparently a giant, veiny penis.

 

"Tolerance" and "sexual attraction" are not synonymous. If Krem had been the bisexual male LI instead of Iron Bull, would your advice be "suck it up" to the gay men saying they're not crazy about vaginas?

 

 

 

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." We had it good for many years, so now it's time for add two wrongs together and make a right.

 

We — as in lesbians, gay men and straight men — have been at the disadvantage in terms of romance content for the last two DA games. How is content being spread more evenly than ever before?

 

Krem is a guy.  I'm sure there's plently of gay men who'd be interested in romancing him.  There's more to relationships than what's in someone's pants.

 

Dragon Age 2:

 

Two romances for straight men.

 

Two romances for lesbians.

 

Four romances for bisexuals (which is going to happen because bi/pan people are interested in more than one gender).

 

One romance from a DLC with very little content, no endgame mention and strict prerequisites (Hawke can't flirt with anyone other than Seb).

 

Dragon Age Inquisition:

 

Two romances for straight men.

 

Two romances for straight women.

 

Two romances for gay men

 

Two romances for lesbians

 

Four romances for bi women

 

Four romances for bi men

 

Two additional romances for elven women, one additional romance for human women (with cut content that indicates Cullen was originally going to be bi).

 

Dragon Age Origins:

 

Two romances for straight men.

 

Two romances for straight women.

 

One romance for gay men

 

One romance for gay women.

 

Three romances for bi women

 

Three romances for bi men.

 

---

 

The romance content has remained pretty much the same for straight men.  You're not getting less.  Other people have been getting more.  And yeah.  It sucks that lesbian and gay men aren't getting more content.

 

And please stop bring up Mae's penis.  I doubt you'd be so crude about a cis women's parts, so treat her with the same respect.

[thats1evildude]

Three romances for straight women in DA2 (Fenris, Anders and Sebastian).

 

Four romances for straight women in DAI, depending on race choice. (Cullen, Solas, Iron Bull and Blackwall)

 

Last two games.

[Illyria]

Three romances for straight women in DA2 (Fenris, Anders and Sebastian).

 

Four romances for straight women in DAI, depending on race choice. (Cullen, Solas, Iron Bull and Blackwall)

 

Last two games.

 

And?  I mentioned those.

 

My point still stands - straight men continue to get exactly the same amount that they've always got.

[thats1evildude]

Krem is a guy. I'm sure there's plently of gay men who'd be interested in romancing him. There's more to relationships than what's in someone's pants.

And if there weren't? Again, would your advice to those gay men saying "I'm not into FTM people" be "suck it up?"

It sucks that lesbian and gay men aren't getting more content.

Like I said: all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Biotic Apostate]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." We had it good for many years, so now it's time for add two wrongs together and make a right.

 

We — as in lesbians, gay men and straight men — have been at the disadvantage in terms of romance content for the last two DA games. How is content being spread more evenly than ever before?

You're not being wronged. One group just received additional romances in 2 games. Straight men had far more LIs in BG2, NWN, JE, ME, ME2, and ME3. In ME2 straight men had six romances, and gay men had zero. That is an unfair situation. Locking out one group, when you clearly have money to include them (if gay men had 3 option, like homosexual and heterosexual women did in that game, I would not mind straight men getting 3 more options).

As long as DA continues to give everyone at least 2 options, no one is being disadvantaged. BW said that the 2/2/2 model is what they're going for, anything above that is just bonus that they decided would work.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But the game being about freedom of choice doesn't change that they could've given us a selection of characters who were visibly bi.  I've seen people use the 'playersexual' term when talking about the FO4 companions.  They're all bi/pan but the game doesn't make it clear.  (BioticApostate was saying how Danse is often thought of as straight, because it's not clear that he's also into guys).

I'm actually thankful they don't make it clear for everyone. Because of that Fallout 4 also, either by design or coincidence, has a character of my sexual orientation of demisexuality with the option Curie. 

[thats1evildude]

You're not being wronged. One group just received additional romances in 2 games. Straight men had far more LIs in BG2, NWN, JE, ME, ME2, and ME3. In ME2 straight men had six romances, and gay men had zero.

 

As I said earlier, the straight men had it good in the past, so now it's time for two wrongs to make a right. Past mistakes always justify future inequality.

[Hellion Rex]

Can we just get 2 straight, 2 bi, 2 gay, and call it a day? Everyone gets two options then.

[Illyria]

As I said earlier, the straight men had it good in the past, so now it's time for two wrongs to make a right. Past mistakes always justify future inequality.

 

You are getting the same number of LIs you've always got.  You're not getting less other people are getting more.

 

Can we just get 2 straight, 2 bi, 2 gay, and call it a day? Everyone gets two options then.

 

That's exactly the the system DA now uses.  Solas and Cullen were added as extras because they had more time.

[thats1evildude]

From my perspective, if Maevaris — a pre-op transsexual with male genitalia — is one of the two LIs for straight males, we are getting less. This is not promoting tolerance of transgendered people; this is forcing me to change my sexuality.

 

Not every straight male would agree with me. But I think it would be fair to say that most do not find big, veiny manmeats attractive, just as I'm sure many gay men would not be attracted to Krem's rolled-up sock and moist, slippery vagina.

[Hellion Rex]

You are getting the same number of LIs you've always got. You're not getting less other people are getting more.


That's exactly the the system DA now uses. Solas and Cullen were added as extras because they had more time.

DAI doesn't count BECAUSE of the extras so you can't claim that that is the system now in use.

[Dai Grepher]

But her character is female, that's how she is written by the writers. I'm not the one arguing with the writers by refusing to acknowledge her as a woman.

I'm not arguing with the writers.

No, they would be straight because they are attracted to a woman. That woman happening to have been born a man does not diminish the fact that the character would be straight and pursuing a heterosexual relationship.

That male genitalia is involved requires that the player character be bisexual by definition.

People are being offended by your lack of candor and sensitivity in regards to Mae.

That's their fault, based on their bias perceptions, not mine. Neutrality is inaction. How can I be blamed for displaying no stance whatsoever?

I would suggest that they might not want to be involved in this discussion, if the topic is something they actively seek to avoid.

Probably.

Then as I said above, they might want to avoid this thread, eh?

They might.

Wait... did you just claim that some of the LGBT characters in the DA universe chose to be that way?

No, I questioned your basis for believing that no player characters chose to be.

Intolerance, sadly.

That's a symptom, not a cause. What is the cause?

Because it's not a hard question, so have the courage to answer it.

That it's not a hard question is not an answer as to why you care about my view of the issue. I asked why do you care what I think on the matter?

Again, it's not considered rude to refer to them in such a fashion because they are not trans individuals.

Mae is trans, so your refusal to call her by her personal name is considered rude in that regard.

Ah, so you're treating trans characters differently from all the others. Interesting.

So what is the solution to this then if neutrality is unacceptable for trans characters?

Don't play coy, you have no reason you can't use feminine pronouns.

Sure I do. The question is why does it matter to you if I remain neutral? If I want to be neutral on the issue, isn't that my prerogative? What business is it of yours?

[Dai Grepher]

Your refusal to even refer to Mae by name and by feminine pronouns is making it clear how you feel about the character.

I've been referring to Tilani by name this whole time. My neutrality has nothing to do with what I think about the character.

You refuse to offer the basic courtesy of addressing her as a woman.

You see it as a basic courtesy. I don't. Neutrality is not discourteous.

Then you can non-maliciously refer to Mae by her name, can't you?

I have been. Tilani. See?

In the interest of returning this to the civil topic that it should be - rather than the wall of text it seems to be rapidly turning into - can everyone kindly refer to Mae as a woman and check their terminology accordingly?

I prefer to be neutral.

And you don't need to be pan or bi to be interested in Mae - or women in real life who are trans.

Yes you do, because of physical form.

She's a women. Same way Krem is a man. What they've got in their pants doesn't affect this. Dating Krem would mean you're gay, dating Mae would mean you're straight (I'm purposefully leaving bi/pansexuality out of this because I'm making a point here).

Heterosexual men do not like male genitalia. It is a requirement to being a heterosexual male. You aren't entitled to your own facts.

So if Tilani were romanceable, it would be a bisexual romance by necessity.

Pretty much every game until recently was made for straight men. So your dude exclusive romance is right there. In every game that includes a love interest (and, by the way, you're implying that bi women are lesser than het women in that post).

I don't think he's implying that. Bisexual females present a potential problem that heterosexual females do not. The bisexual female is attracted to the female form, which the male cannot fulfill. It therefore presents a point of friction in that the male might feel inadequate and unable to fulfill the bisexual female's wants. He may fear losing her to a female. With heterosexual females on the other hand, the male only needs to be better than any other male. But it's impossible for him to out-female an actual female.

It's better to have a mate who is attracted only to what you are.

It's only recently that writers (of any company) have started including content that isn't exclusively aimed at straight men. So... if BW starts to consider it less important to create content aimed just at het men then deal with it. You're still getting content. The content is just being spread more evenly than it was before.

It could be argued that the addition of new content pulls resources away from the romances that the majority of players want. My argument is, why spend the resources on a romance that will only be played by a tiny fraction of the fanbase due it romance-gating?

So say you witness someone being beaten up. You don't join in, but you don't call the police. You go home and congratulate yourself on your neutrality. That is what you are doing.

Your analogy doesn't work. No one is being harmed in this case. My neutrality does not permit harm to be perpetrated.

So why are you avoiding pronouns?

To be neutral.

[Dai Grepher]

I care about how you format your posts because this is not a cute debate. You are misgendering a woman by refusing to use her pronouns.

Untrue. Not using a pronoun is not the same as using an incorrect pronoun. This is fact.
 

It's not a valid form of reference when it's not the name she's well known as.

So popular opinion changes the fact that the character's last name is Tilani?
 

Most people call her Mae, or Maevaris. That's in canon and out of canon. The other characters you mentioned are known by their last name in canon.

All the more reason to use the last name, so it becomes better known.
 

My question about Cass is still valid. You like her and consider her your canon LI. Would you let the fact that she's trans stand in the way of your romance?

I personally don't like Cassandra in that way. So the point is moot.
 

You know damn well what I mean.

No, I don't. You'll have to be more specific. If I want to stay neutral on this issue, shouldn't I be able to?
 

I always try to remain neutral about these things.

WHAT?! Neutral? How dare you?
 

Having transgender characters are fine, but you shouldn't be preachy and teach tolerance. You treat transgender characters just as you would to any other minorities like Blacks, Asians, or gays. You treat it as a non-issue. You shouldn't be allowed to be hurtful, but at the same time, you shouldn't preach about transgender, because this is a game about medieval, and it should remain a gaming medium where everyone feels welcome instead of bringing attention to how difference the individuals are. If you want a transgender there just so you could insult them, you're playing the wrong game, and if Bioware adds a transgender person in there just to preach tolerance, they're doing it for the wrong reasons. Progressive is not about bringing attention to the difference in each individual, but viewing everyone as equal a-holes.

I think Magister Tilani should just be a story-related NPC and nothing more. The story shouldn't even get into the gender issue.

[Sifr]

Krem is a guy.  I'm sure there's plently of gay men who'd be interested in romancing him.  There's more to relationships than what's in someone's pants.

 

Based on how Krem can potentially hook up with Maryden, he's probably not into men though, but rather seeks heterosexual relationships with women. Maryden doesn't necessarily have to be bisexual or a lesbian to be attracted to Krem, since her other prospective hookups are Cole and Zither!, she simply has to be attracted to Krem and see him as a man.

 

As you said, there's more a relationship than what's in someone's pants.

 

I don't think we can accurately label someone as being "gay" or "bisexual" simply because they might happen to be involved in a relationship with a trans individual, since depending on the trans person's gender identity, the relationship dynamic may be heterosexual.

 

I'm not arguing with the writers.

 

You always argue with the writers.

 

Now kindly acknowledge Mae as a woman and quit derailing/spamming the thread... either join in the actual discussion, or jog on.

[Catilina]

[...]
I have been. Tilani. See?
[blahblahblah...]

This start to be ridiculous. Please, stop it.

[Battlebloodmage]

Seriously, I doubt he would stop. It's practically impossible to change someone's mind over the issue over the internet. The conversation is basically going in a circle now, so people should just ignore him and move on. Otherwise, when we get to page 16, it'd still be the exact same conversation.

 

If the developer happens to be here, the entire conversation is basically just revolved around people arguing over pronounce instead of whether people want Mae as a companion or not. 

[Jedi Comedian]

Heterosexual men do not like male genitalia. It is a requirement to being a heterosexual male. You aren't entitled to your own facts.

I don't really want to participate in this particular discussion, but... emm, there are actually some straight men who like being pegged by women and they have 0 attraction towards men. I'm N.O.T. saying everyone likes it, but those who do are neither bi nor gay.

[thats1evildude]

Some straight dudes are absolutely into being pegged by their girlfriends. Not my bag of chips, personally, but it's a good way to celebrate International Women's Day.