720 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

I... am not 100% sure what you're trying to say, sorry. Are you saying that you think not liking an option because they are trans is different than not liking them for any number of other reasons? I honestly am not sure.

This phrasing isn't going to be pleasant, I fully acknowledge that, but I think directness is required. The view here seems to be that Mae would be taking the place of a full woman in terms of the LI options. I don't think that would be the case, actually. If anything, she might get her own category because of this concern.
 
I can sort of understand where the person is coming from, particularly considering the game's setting since there is no transition surgery. Some people are going to be attracted to a particular gender, and that includes ALL aspects of that gender. Some people can move past that, or don't consider it important, and others can't and do consider it important.
 
Maevaris dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, is a woman is her very soul, but is not physically a woman, just as Krem is not physically a man. That IS going to matter to some people in terms of the romance options.

[Boost32]

I... am not 100% sure what you're trying to say, sorry. Are you saying that you think not liking an option because they are trans is different than not liking them for any number of other reasons? I honestly am not sure.

Yes, I am.

[nightscrawl]

Yeah, I'm torn about the romance. On one hand, I totally agree, if they want to do it they should, and do it well. It would be cool. But part of me isn't sure Bioware can do it well enough, and part of me just thinks they should skip her romance because the reaction to it (even reaction to the hypothetical romance) would just be too depressing to see.

What is "well enough"? That is going to be an individual preference. I am totally bonkers about the Dorian romance, all aspects of it, including the way it plays out in Trespasser. But there are many who were not are are bitter about it, and the character is tainted for them because of it.

As far as bigots are concerned, Bioware has shown that they are happy to give them the finger. By now, players familiar with the company know what Bioware is about and how they view things. They'll either accept it and move on, or they won't.


I'd also suggest that Maevaris is the perfect character to attempt this with. She already has a fanbase from her appearance in the comics and is known to be trans (yes, I get that this won't be the case for new players). There will never be a right time for Bioware to take such a leap. This will be a controversial choice whenever it happens.

[Qun00]

What is "well enough"? That is going to be an individual preference. I am totally bonkers about the Dorian romance, all aspects of it, including the way it plays out in Trespasser. But there are many who were not are are bitter about it, and the character is tainted for them because of it.

As far as bigots are concerned, Bioware has shown that they are happy to give them the finger. By now, players familiar with the company know what Bioware is about and how they view things. They'll either accept it and move on, or they won't.


I'd also suggest that Maevaris is the perfect character to attempt this with. She already has a fanbase from her appearance in the comics and is known to be trans (yes, I get that this won't be the case for new players). There will never be a right time for Bioware to take such a leap. This will be a controversial choice whenever it happens.

It isn't such a black and white subject. You can't pretend that physical attraction isn't a factor.

And that is true when it comes to all kinds of people, not just the evil cis het white male.

Do you think gay people never think twice before dating someone who is only a man or woman inside?

[Battlebloodmage]

I wouldn't want a transman as a gay romance, so I wouldn't want a transwoman as an option for straight guy. It would also be too much backlash, considering having a random NPCs as trans caused so many backlashes and ruined the game's score. If Mae was made into a romance, she should be made as an extra option outside of the typical 6, so she could be the 7th option. 

 

I'm totally down for her as a companion though. 

[nightscrawl]

It isn't such a black and white subject. You can't pretend that physical attraction isn't a factor.

And that is true when it comes to all kinds of people, not just the evil cis het white male.

Do you think gay people never think twice before dating someone who is only a man or woman inside?

 

Perhaps you should read my previous post, right above the one you quoted, where I fully acknowledged that part of it. That part of it will matter to SOME people, but not ALL.

 

If this is about my remark concerning bigots, that was a direct response to Banshee's concern about the negative response that the romance would get. Not negative because of lack of options, but negative in the same hateful, vitriolic way that many of us have seen on these forums concerning LGBT folks. Let's not pretend those people aren't out there. I fully agree with Banshee that it would be "depressing" to see.

 

As far as initial physical attraction, Maevaris presents fully as a woman in the comics; depending on the clothing you would never know. It is only the further knowledge that she is trans, and what that means for what you can't see under her clothing, and how that impacts on the sexual aspect of a relationship, where it comes into play at all. I can see how finding out that a woman is trans might be a turn off, but that has nothing to do with an initial attraction to her as a woman since she presents that way.

 

Also, don't forget that most people who play these games aren't going to be on these forums, finding out everything about all of the NPCs, followers, LIs, and so on before release. Most players will be meeting these characters for the first time and learning about them that way. Even some players like myself will purposely choose to abandon these forums after the game is announced so I go into it blind.

 

In that case, you will have some (not all), straight guys who are meeting Mae for the first time, have an initial attraction, then find out she is trans and go, "EEW!", or are pissed off, or consider it a bait-and-switch, or some other thing. There will also be those guys who roll with it and romance her anyway. Just as there isn't a hive mind for minority folks, there isn't one for majority folks.

[Dai Grepher]

Judging by Weekes' snide comments against the fanbase regarding the issue, I believe that Tilani's appearance in the next game is pretty much confirmed.

My opinion? I think Tilani is overshadowed by Pavus. Dorian is the leader of the Lucerni. He is an established character already. He has at least some connection with the (ex)Inquisitor. He might have some connection with any other returning characters. He's a mage.

So Tilani really has no role to play in the storyline that Dorian can't play himself. I wouldn't want Tilani to appear as anything other than some NPC. The one and only card Tilani has to play is the family connection to the dwarven Ambassadoria, which might tie in to Kal-Sharok somehow. But still, that's only cause for an NPC appearance.

The true mage to look for in DA4 will be Calpernia. She is much more connected to the possible storylines than some wealthy magister fighting other magisters. Calpernia is an underdog with a power to rival anyone in the Magisterium. I would much MUCH rather have her as a party companion, and certainly as a romance option.

[nightscrawl]

^ Actually, the letter from Dorian refers to the Lucerni as Maevaris's party.

For months I've had only the society of Maevaris's fledgling Lucerni party...

 
The epilogue slide says,

Along with Magister Maevaris Tilani, he formed a group called the Lucerni to restore and redeem Tevinter - a fight many thought hopeless.

It seems that they are co-leaders of the Lucerni party.
 
Also, she is the senior magister, so it makes more sense that she would have the experience [of working within the Magisterium] and the connections to establish such a party, than Dorian who is a newcomer, regardless of what his family name is.

[Andromelek]

I'm not sure Calpernia would be a LI, overall if Marius turns to be a companion....

[Dani100]

I'll pass, would prefer to not have another 100 negative threads about a trans character or trans people in general. This place has already proven that people only give a **** about their own feelings and **** anyone else's.

[Dai Grepher]

Actually, the letter from Dorian refers to the Lucerni as Maevaris's party.

The epilogue slide says,

It seems that they are co-leaders of the Lucerni party.

Also, she is the senior magister, so it makes more sense that she would have the experience [of working within the Magisterium] and the connections to establish such a party, than Dorian who is a newcomer, regardless of what his family name is.

Yes, the epilogue is actually what stuck in my memory more than the Last Few Years note. Still, Dorian is probably the more influential person because of his connections to the (ex)Inquisitor. Tilani could focus on the Lucerni while Dorian returns as a companion, since Tilani is more influential in the Magisterium anyway.

As for this discussion on Tilani being a romance option...

Look, let's be honest here. Tilani would be gated to bisexual male characters by default. Tilani is attracted to males, which rules out all female characters. Tilani is biologically male, but tries to look like a female. Heterosexual male characters will want someone who is biologically female. Homosexual male characters will want someone who looks like a male.

That means the only players who will pursue the relationship are bisexual males, maybe a few homosexual males, and of course certain heterosexual and bisexual females (because of course). But this isn't a significant percentage of the fanbase. Tilani would be an absolute waste as a romance option.

Also take origin story into account. Why would Tilani start a relationship with a male who does not have power, wealth, or influence? Why would a male of a family with power, wealth, and influence want to start a relationship with someone he can't reproduce with?

Too many obstacles, too little demand.

[Battlebloodmage]

I'll pass, would prefer to not have another 100 negative threads about a trans character or trans people in general. This place has already proven that people only give a **** about their own feelings and **** anyone else's.

Doesn't that mean they won if Bioware doesn't include something because those who dislike transgender people whine? I'd love for Mae to be available as a companion, and she fits perfectly and she exists even before the next game is made, so they can't use a pandering argument. 

 

I personally can't date a trans person, it's more of a preference, so I wouldn't want her as a romance, but if she ends up as the extra option then I wouldn't mind. 

[BansheeOwnage]

This phrasing isn't going to be pleasant, I fully acknowledge that, but I think directness is required. The view here seems to be that Mae would be taking the place of a full woman in terms of the LI options. I don't think that would be the case, actually. If anything, she might get her own category because of this concern.
 
I can sort of understand where the person is coming from, particularly considering the game's setting since there is no transition surgery. Some people are going to be attracted to a particular gender, and that includes ALL aspects of that gender. Some people can move past that, or don't consider it important, and others can't and do consider it important.
 
Maevaris dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, is a woman is her very soul, but is not physically a woman, just as Krem is not physically a man. That IS going to matter to some people in terms of the romance options.

I understand. This is a difficult subject, isn't it? Because on one hand I acknowledge what you said, but on the other, having her as a separate option just rubs me the wrong way on principle, since it's basically saying that she's different and needs to be an extra/alternate option because she'll never be good enough for some people, and that undermines any inclusivity they are trying to convey. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

Part of me also gets depressed that she wouldn't even be good enough in a video game romance, where we can be almost 100% certain there will be no explicit scenes with her and where she is for all intents and purposes the same as other options. I went out of my comfort zone to romance Cullen because I like his personality, with no attraction to him whatsoever otherwise, and I enjoyed the romance for the romance. Couldn't people do the same for Mae, if they really liked her character? Just thinking outloud here.

 

What is "well enough"? That is going to be an individual preference. I am totally bonkers about the Dorian romance, all aspects of it, including the way it plays out in Trespasser. But there are many who were not are are bitter about it, and the character is tainted for them because of it.

As far as bigots are concerned, Bioware has shown that they are happy to give them the finger. By now, players familiar with the company know what Bioware is about and how they view things. They'll either accept it and move on, or they won't.


I'd also suggest that Maevaris is the perfect character to attempt this with. She already has a fanbase from her appearance in the comics and is known to be trans (yes, I get that this won't be the case for new players). There will never be a right time for Bioware to take such a leap. This will be a controversial choice whenever it happens.

A good question. I know it'll be different for everyone, just like some people were satisfied with how Krem was presented and some weren't. Personally, there were aspects of how they handled Krem I thought they could have done better, and hope they do with Mae. I just want them to not have her being trans be a big/important issue like it was for Krem and Dorian's homosexuality was for him*. I think that's the less effective way to be inclusive. Don't get me wrong, I like Krem and Dorian, it's not about that.

 

I agree that she's definitely a great opportunity and Bioware should totally include her as a major character. I'm just not 100% on if she should be romance option. If Bioware decides to make her one, you won't hear any complaining from me, it's just that whole "depressing" thing I mentioned above making me wary.

 

*By "important issue" I meant making a big deal of it ingame/-story, not that it shouldn't be important to the characters themselves.

 

Judging by Weekes' snide comments against the fanbase regarding the issue, I believe that Tilani's appearance in the next game is pretty much confirmed.

My opinion? I think Tilani is overshadowed by Pavus. Dorian is the leader of the Lucerni. He is an established character already. He has at least some connection with the (ex)Inquisitor. He might have some connection with any other returning characters. He's a mage.

So Tilani really has no role to play in the storyline that Dorian can't play himself. I wouldn't want Tilani to appear as anything other than some NPC. The one and only card Tilani has to play is the family connection to the dwarven Ambassadoria, which might tie in to Kal-Sharok somehow. But still, that's only cause for an NPC appearance.

That's not really the best argument to be made against having a companion, even if it held water (though I'm not convinced it does). Most of the companions in DA are not overly important to the plot, and some have overlap. If that's also true for Mae (which I doubt), well, so what?

 

As for this discussion on Tilani being a romance option...

Look, let's be honest here. Tilani would be gated to bisexual male characters by default. Tilani is attracted to males, which rules out all female characters. Tilani is biologically male, but tries to look like a female. Heterosexual male characters will want someone who is biologically female. Homosexual male characters will want someone who looks like a male.

That's actually not how it works in real life, believe it or not.

 

Also take origin story into account. Why would Tilani start a relationship with a male who does not have power, wealth, or influence? Why would a male of a family with power, wealth, and influence want to start a relationship with someone he can't reproduce with?

Too many obstacles, too little demand.

That... is a very odd thing to say in regards to a roleplaying game. There are plenty of people in real life (and therefore RP options ingame) who are neutral or don't want to have kids, and that's also ignoring adoption, which would be in high-demand in Thedas right about now.

 

And something similar goes for Maevaris. People marry for love all the time, which is why she was in a relationship with a dwarf. Also, she's already very wealthy, so that's basically a non-issue anyway. And who's to say our character won't have power, wealth, and influence in DA4? In fact, I'd say it's more likely that they will than not.

[Battlebloodmage]

I understand. This is a difficult subject, isn't it? Because on one hand I acknowledge what you said, but on the other, having her as a separate option just rubs me the wrong way on principle, since it's basically saying that she's different and needs to be an extra/alternate option because she'll never be good enough for some people, and that undermines any inclusivity they are trying to convey. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

Part of me also gets depressed that she wouldn't even be good enough in a video game romance, where we can be almost 100% certain there will be no explicit scenes with her and where she is for all intents and purposes the same as other options. I went out of my comfort zone to romance Cullen because I like his personality, with no attraction to him whatsoever otherwise, and I enjoyed the romance for the romance. Couldn't people do the same for Mae, if they really liked her character? Just thinking outloud here.

 

A good question. I know it'll be different for everyone, just like some people were satisfied with how Krem was presented and some weren't. Personally, there were aspects of how they handled Krem I thought they could have done better, and hope they do with Mae. I just want them to not have her being trans be a big/important issue like it was for Krem and Dorian's homosexuality was for him*. I think that's the less effective way to be inclusive. Don't get me wrong, I like Krem and Dorian, it's not about that.

 

I agree that she's definitely a great opportunity and Bioware should totally include her as a major character. I'm just not 100% on if she should be romance option. If Bioware decides to make her one, you won't hear any complaining from me, it's just that whole "depressing" thing I mentioned above making me wary.

 

*By "important issue" I meant making a big deal of it ingame/-story, not that it shouldn't be important to the characters themselves.

 

That's not really the best argument to be made against having a companion, even if it held water (though I'm not convinced it does). Most of the companions in DA are not overly important to the plot, and some have overlap. If that's also true for Mae (which I doubt), well, so what?

 

That's actually not how it works in real life, believe it or not.

 

That... is a very odd thing to say in regards to a roleplaying game. There are plenty of people in real life (and therefore RP options ingame) who are neutral or don't want to have kids, and that's also ignoring adoption, which would be in high-demand in Thedas right about now.

 

And something similar goes for Maevaris. People marry for love all the time, which is why she was in a relationship with a dwarf. Also, she's already very wealthy, so that's basically a non-issue anyway. And who's to say our character won't have power, wealthy, and influence in DA4? In fact, I'd say it's more likely that they will than not.

People like what they like. Wouldn't you say? It's a preference, there's a reason why guys are gay, they can't get aroused by females, I know that some straight guys who do gay porn take Viagra to stay up because they can't get their penis up otherwise. There are some people are who pansexual and can be into anyone, but those who are straight or gay, they attract to the physical aspects of their partner. You're only thinking about the transgender person, but you don't think that the straight guy's preference should be taken into account as well? This is not about asking for more options, but the options they want are outside of what they normally attracted to. It's like you don't force  a gay guy to just play a guy to date guys, you don't tell a straight guy to just roll with a transgender character. someone who has the body of a male and the genital. Guys are actually more visual, and a lot of them are into the physical aspects of their partner. You heard about question like whether a guy is a boobs man or an ass man? I don't think it's fair for them to just accept an option that they can't be attracted to. They shouldn't be viewed as bigots just because their preference is straight and not pansexual. 

[thats1evildude]

Who said she would be a romance to begin with?

No one did. I just have a gut feeling.

Every Dragon Age game has had two romances for heterosexual males, and I can see Maevaris being one of them to makes point about tolerance or some such. And that's not my preference.

[Lulupab]

Well to be honest here, if a romance is going to happen lets not forget her age and experience. I think she wouldn't even want a relationship at this point. I think a Samara style romance would be more fitting for her. "My loving days are over but I'll make an exception for you" type of thing. I think if Vivienne was a romance option in DA:I she would be the same.

 

Of course this is only my opinion, I'm just considering her personality and implementation of that into her romance.

[Mistic]

The true mage to look for in DA4 will be Calpernia. She is much more connected to the possible storylines than some wealthy magister fighting other magisters. Calpernia is an underdog with a power to rival anyone in the Magisterium. I would much MUCH rather have her as a party companion, and certainly as a romance option.

 

Why not both? It's not as if we've only had one mage companion per game, and that stark contrast between the two could be very interesting. Imagine the party banter between the filthy rich Altus Magister with bad experiences with dragon cults and the ex-slave ex-Venatori terrorist who was Corypheus' cheerleader. It almost writes itself.

 

I'm not sure Calpernia would be a LI, overall if Marius turns to be a companion....

 

True, but past relationships didn't stop Miranda or Jacob from being romanceable in ME2.

[Walter Black]

Quick question for those who think Maevaris being a romance option would be "stealing" a spot: if Mae's romance quest involved her using magic to become completely female, would that make her an acceptable LI, or would her past be too much for get past?

[Heimdall]

I would expect Mae to appear as a non-companion NPC. As previously noted, she's the senior magister between her and Dorian, founder of their party. I don't expect Dorian to be a companion either, I expect both will effectively be in advisor-like positions.

She could still be a love interest, though her being transwoman does complicate the issue. They would need to ensure that the player is aware of her transgender status fairly early on. As nightscrawl has said, physical attractiveness for some does include what's between the legs. There's an element of sexual compatability to consider and its best to avoid accusations of Mae 'tricking' the player. That's not an attempt to placate bigots but simply acknowledging reality. Mae presents as a woman, but accepting that and being interested in a sexual relationship with someone who is biologically male are two different things.

[Battlebloodmage]

Quick question for those who think Maevaris being a romance option would be "stealing" a spot: if Mae's romance quest involved her using magic to become completely female, would that make her an acceptable LI, or would her past be too much for get past?

Considering post-op transgender women with boobs and a working vagina still being viewed as a man or "it", I doubt it. It's just the mental block some people have. 

 

There are transgender women who don't look like a "man". A lot of guys here said that transgender women are easy to tell, but I don't think it's always the case.

 

 

She was born a guy, but she has everything changed to physically become a female. You wouldn't be able to tell, but you wouldn't believe how many comments talk about her being disgusting, being with her mean you're gay and such.

 

The very fact that someone used to be transgender is enough of a reason it wouldn't work for many guys especially when they could be labeled as "gay" for being with a transgender woman regardless of how good she may look.

[Andromelek]

Well to be honest here, if a romance is going to happen lets not forget her age and experience. I think she wouldn't even want a relationship at this point. I think a Samara style romance would be more fitting for her. "My loving days are over but I'll make an exception for you" type of thing. I think if Vivienne was a romance option in DA:I she would be the same.
 
Of course this is only my opinion, I'm just considering her personality and implementation of that into her romance.

Well, age didn't stop Solas from having a romance (being a jerkface who means to destroy the world did) so, if a thousand years old elf was a LI, any well looking ancient dude could be.

[Biotic Apostate]

Yes, the epilogue is actually what stuck in my memory more than the Last Few Years note. Still, Dorian is probably the more influential person because of his connections to the (ex)Inquisitor. Tilani could focus on the Lucerni while Dorian returns as a companion, since Tilani is more influential in the Magisterium anyway.

And since you agree Mae is more influential than Dorian, it would make more sense to have her travel with us in Tevinter as a party member. She could have a role like Cassandra, both an advisor and a companion.

 

and of course certain heterosexual and bisexual females (because of course).

Because, of course, it's bad that women role play while playing DA. What do they think this is, a role playing game?!

 

If BW based their game design choices on how much people will access them, you would get a Mass Effect 3 with only Liara, Garrus, and Vega as companions (no one else), could only play as a male soldier (with a custom face), there'd be no option to shoot Mordin, or to sabotage the genophage cure. Oh and 64% of players missed Wrex, so let's cut him out too. And 2/3 play as paragon, out with renegade options! Insanity mode? 4%. So that's pointless too.

And if we assume BSN DAI poll results are close to general player base, you'd only have the choice to play as a human or elf, and helping the mages and doing Vivienne's quest would have been mandatory.

BW does a lot of stuff that's not going to be seen by the majority, but they choose to do it anyway, because they want to give us more options. If they want to do a romance with a trans person, it's because they want to, not because they think 60+% of gamers will do the romance.

 

If Mae is only interested in men, then her romance is gated to players who make male PCs and are interested in the romance. Nobody is asking you what sexuality the players are required to have to be allowed to enjoy such a romance. There were a lot of "I'm a straight male and romanced Dorian" threads, so obviously you can speak only for yourself.

[Lulupab]

Well, age didn't stop Solas from having a romance (being a jerkface who means to destroy the world did) so, if a thousand years old elf was a LI, any well looking ancient dude could be.

 

That's a different kind of "age".

[Lulupab]

Considering post-op transgender women with boobs and a working vagina still being viewed as a man or "it", I doubt it. It's just the mental block some people have. 

 

There are transgender women who don't look like a "man". A lot of guys here said that transgender women are easy to tell, but I don't think it's always the case.

 

-snipped images-

 

She was born a guy, but she has everything changed to physically become a female. You wouldn't be able to tell, but you wouldn't believe how many comments talk about her being disgusting, being with her mean you're gay and such.

 

The very fact that someone used to be transgender is enough of a reason it wouldn't work for many guys especially when they could be labeled as "gay" for being with a transgender woman regardless of how good she may look.

 

Its true and that's a shame, female to male transsexuals seem to be treated much better.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

BW does a lot of stuff that's not going to be seen by the majority, but they choose to do it anyway, because they want to give us more options. If they want to do a romance with a trans person, it's because they want to, not because they think 60+% of gamers will do the romance.

 

If Mae is only interested in men, then her romance is gated to players who make male PCs and are interested in the romance. Nobody is asking you what sexuality the players are required to have to be allowed to enjoy such a romance. There were a lot of "I'm a straight male and romanced Dorian" threads, so obviously you can only speak for yourself.

Yeah, this is something I was trying to get at earlier. It just depresses me that so many people just flat-out say "No, I'd never romance Mae, eww" before even getting to know her ingame etc. If straight guys can romance Dorian and I can romance Cullen for reasons other than sexual interest, I don't see what the big deal with Mae is, especially since I'm certain nothing will be explicit.

 

I'm not saying everyone has to go outside their comfort zone, it's just this instant refusal only because she's trans just makes me... sad. I mean, this is a video game, we're not saying you should do that in real life. Bleh, anyway.