720 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

Maybe. Or maybe they would see it as BioWare diminishing the character's "gender identity" by not making Tilani attracted exclusively to males.

 

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things. There are plenty of bisexual and lesbian trans women. I mean, we can infer that Mae isn't a lesbian because she was happily married to a dude, but I don't see anything wrong with her being bi. I think there are some trans women who would like the opportunity to romance her while playing as a woman, so I imagine it would please people on the whole.

 

I'd be fine with Mae being poly, too, if they wanted to do that. However, BioWare have already said that the easiest way for them to do a poly romance would be for the player character to romance an already-established couple. Unless Mae has met someone new between the comics and whenever DA4 is set, she's single.

[Jedi Comedian]

The writer has Tilani as biologically male.


Clearly, Qun00 disagrees with your opinion.


Not sure I understand what you mean. I get that making Tilani a bi LI could still be seen as infringing a straight male's options, but I don't see how having one alternative would dispel that. In fact, in my question I meant that Tilani would be a bi LI in addition to a straight female and a bi female.


Maybe. Or maybe they would see it as BioWare diminishing the character's "gender identity" by not making Tilani attracted exclusively to males.

Another question to any who are interested in answering.

What if they made Tilani bisexual AND polygamist? Such as...

Male - Tilani - Female,
Male - Tilani - Male,
Female - Tilani - Female,

and with the various sexual preferences applying to the males and females.


Is this thread about homosexuality? Are you suggesting that Tilani is a homosexual male?

Anyway, a phobia requires one to be irrational. As long as those here can explain their rationale, they cannot possibly be phobic.

Who said I was talking about Mae?

And by the way, it is impossible she would be a homosexual male. Homosexual means attracted to the SAME gender. Since she is a trans woman, ergo not a man, she is NOT attracted to the same gender. And YES there are homosexual trans women (trans women into women), look at The Wachowskys.

The "rationality" of discrimination and hate doesn't justify them. I'm pretty sure racists/mysoginists/homophobes/etc see themselves as perfectly rational.

[Catilina]

The writer has Tilani as biologically male.

[...]

And refers to her: "SHE". 

(But this is a deadlock, I see. Again.)

[nightscrawl]

... look at The Wachowskys.

Sorry for this digression, but my mind is still boggled by that whole thing, that two siblings would turn out to be trans. It's so awesome that they had each other during it all and really makes me wonder about conversations they had when they were young, and in their teens, and all of that sort of discovery.

 

If we're going to bring real people into the discussion, I should also point out Caitlyn Jenner. Yes, I'm aware she's not the most popular person, for various reasons, but that aside... She has said she is attracted to women, and only women (as far as I know, she hasn't yet referred to herself as a lesbian, though). Also, I don't believe she has had the full transition surgery, even though she clearly has the means. Who knows if she will in the future, but for right now that is the choice she has made. She is just one example of a trans person who looks at her life, her sexuality, and her body in one way, while another trans person may feel differently.

 

 

Regarding Mae's sexuality specifically, I guarantee you that if she is a romance option, and if they make her bisexual, people will accuse Bioware of retconning her sexuality. Not only because of her marriage to a man, but flirting with Alistair, and the fact that the Fade sequence has her waited on scantily clad men (Until We Sleep #2).

 

I don't care for myself either way, as I would likely romance her with a man if she is a LI, but that is what some would say.

 

 

[edit]

There is also this exchange in Those Who Speak #1, p.8/22.

 

Varric: ... Officially, we're marauding pirates -- The King took my advice to not bring an army, given the politics.
Mae: You take good care of him.
Varric: I'm not sure he's your type.
Mae: Neither am I, but how can I be certain unless we --
Alistair: Ahem.

 

But that's pretty much all we get as far as that's concerned.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 juin 2016 - 12:58 .

[mireisen]

I thought Josh Grelle did a pretty good job voicing a female in Princess Jellyfish, but that's just me. Not sure how he'd do with an accent.

 

 

I'd be tickled pink if he voiced Maevaris. 

[Biotic Apostate]

Homophobes have been ****** around since the dawn of time, several days is nothing LOL.

Not entirely true. The Americas were pretty open about homosexuals and transgender people. Native Americans (they had two spirit people), Aztecs, Mayans, and so on found it normal (and then the conquistadors came and started killing them). China has a euphemism for homosexuality ("passion of the cut sleeve") that references a gay emperor, who cut his sleeve so he wouldn't wake his lover. Abu Nuwas, who's said to be one of the greatest Arabic poets, was openly gay. Mahmud of Ghazni ruled over the Ghaznavid Empire, while he himself was ruled by his male lover. And so on.

 

But bottom shaming was a thing since always. Norse had it, cultures with age-structured gay relationships had it (Rome, Greece, Japan). Or based on a slavery system (which nightscrawl is right about - that does seem like another nod to Rome).

 

(semi related - if anyone knows a comprehensive book on LGBT history, please point me in the right direction)

[Dai Grepher]

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things.

Of course I know that, but do most in the LGBT crowd? I just wonder if they would see making Tilani attracted to females as well a sort of cop-out, or diminishing to the character's self-perception as a woman who likes the opposite sex.

There are plenty of bisexual and lesbian trans women. I mean, we can infer that Mae isn't a lesbian because she was happily married to a dude, but I don't see anything wrong with her being bi. I think there are some trans women who would like the opportunity to romance her while playing as a woman, so I imagine it would please people on the whole.

It would be interesting to see how they would respond to that scenario. I imagine some being angry for the typical malcontent reasons, but I can also see your point that some would prefer that.

I'd be fine with Mae being poly, too, if they wanted to do that. However, BioWare have already said that the easiest way for them to do a poly romance would be for the player character to romance an already-established couple. Unless Mae has met someone new between the comics and whenever DA4 is set, she's single.

Well that's all a question of coding. Tell the coders to make it work, or else they're all polygaphobic bigots.

Who said I was talking about Mae?

Well you implied that those being lectured to in this thread on pronoun usage were homophobes.

[nightscrawl]

China has a euphemism for homosexuality ("passion of the cut sleeve") that references a gay emperor, who cut his sleeve so he wouldn't wake his lover.
 
(semi related - if anyone knows a comprehensive book on LGBT history, please point me in the right direction)

 
That's adorable and sweet.

And ditto on the history thing.

[Biotic Apostate]

* I don't know how they ran around comfortably, but you do you, Greece.

yeah there would be a lot of unwanted movement. But hey, maybe that was the point. Celebration of male beauty, indeed 

[nightscrawl]

Of course I know that, but do most in the LGBT crowd? I just wonder if they would see making Tilani attracted to females as well a sort of cop-out, or diminishing to the character's self-perception as a woman who likes the opposite sex.

As I've said before, and it bears repeating, it's not a hive mind or collective consciousness. Not all LGBT people feel the same about every issue.

 

Some very well might see it as an attempt at fairness (which has been suggested in this thread), so that the first trans LI is able to be romanced by both genders. Others may see it as a retcon, given what we are presented with in the comics. And still others will wonder if Bioware will ever be able to write a bisexual person in a way that doesn't make them seem playersexual, the "degenerate bisexual" who screws everyone, the "I'll make an exception for YOU, special snowflake PC," and so on.

 

As far as I'm concerned, ALL of those viewpoints are valid.

[Dai Grepher]

Sorry for this digression, but my mind is still boggled by that whole thing, that two siblings would turn out to be trans. It's so awesome that they had each other during it all and really makes me wonder about conversations they had when they were young, and in their teens, and all of that sort of discovery.

They are a funny example. Two people who achieved success from a movie series they never would have thought up had they not at one point been testosterone fueled males, then after that success abandoned what they were and have done nothing of note since. I think their decisions came much later in their lives actually. I doubt either of them felt that way since childhood. Seems to me it was a mindset they picked up in Hollywood.
 

If we're going to bring real people into the discussion, I should also point out Caitlyn Jenner. Yes, I'm aware she's not the most popular person, for various reasons, but that aside... She has said she is attracted to women, and only women (as far as I know, she hasn't yet referred to herself as a lesbian, though).

Jenner admitted to wanting to date males. Or so I saw in a Yahoo! headline that I passed over.
 

Also, I don't believe she has had the full transition surgery, even though she clearly has the means.

Jenner knows perfectly well that's one bell you can't un-ring.
 

Who knows if she will in the future, but for right now that is the choice she has made. She is just one example of a trans person who looks at her life, her sexuality, and her body in one way, while another trans person may feel differently.

Current rumor is Jenner regrets the decision and wants to go back. Again, Yahoo! headline I didn't bother to click on.
 

Regarding Mae's sexuality specifically, I guarantee you that if she is a romance option, and if they make her bisexual, people will accuse Bioware of retconning her sexuality.

I think so too. But will most of those people see it that way and be angry?
 

Not only because of her marriage to a man, but flirting with Alistair, and the fact that the Fade sequence has her waited on scantily clad men (Until We Sleep #2).

And Cullen. But Tilani can also send chocolates to a female Inquisitor, right? I only completed the related Chore Table missions with my canon male. Also, either Josephine or Leliana keep the chocolates.
 

Varric: ... Officially, we're marauding pirates -- The King took my advice to not bring an army, given the politics.
Mae: You take good care of him.
Varric: I'm not sure he's your type.
Mae: Neither am I, but how can I be certain unless we --
Alistair: Ahem.
 
But that's pretty much all we get as far as that's concerned.

Does that mean Alistair isn't married to Anora in that worldstate?

[nightscrawl]

Does that mean Alistair isn't married to Anora in that worldstate?

That canon does not specify if Alistair is paired with anyone, either with Anora or the female Warden (Queen or mistress). It also doesn't state whether the Warden is likely to be still alive or if the Dark Ritual happened. All we know for sure is that Alistair is king.

BUT, the final panels of the comics show Alistair sitting on the throne looking very unhappy about the continued state of things and being king, which seems to me to suggest that he is ruling alone. So no, I don't believe Anora, or Warden Queen, is around in that canon of events.

[Dai Grepher]

As I've said before, and it bears repeating, it's not a hive mind or collective consciousness. Not all LGBT people feel the same about every issue.

Yes, but the segment that complains is always the loudest. Some trans persons liked the Tilani character, but all it took was one trans blogger complaining to get David Gaider wringing his hands and bowing his head in apology.

Some very well might see it as an attempt at fairness (which has been suggested in this thread), so that the first trans LI is able to be romanced by both genders. Others may see it as a retcon, given what we are presented with in the comics. And still others will wonder if Bioware will ever be able to write a bisexual person in a way that doesn't make them seem playersexual, the "degenerate bisexual" who screws everyone, the "I'll make an exception for YOU, special snowflake PC," and so on.

But will they see it as a slight against Tilani's self identification?

As far as I'm concerned, ALL of those viewpoints are valid.

My concern is what viewpoint will be most dominant. If the majority will disapprove of the character then there's no reason to include it as anything other than an NPC.

[Biotic Apostate]

They are a funny example. Two people who achieved success from a movie series they never would have thought up had they not at one point been testosterone fueled males, then after that success abandoned what they were and have done nothing of note since. I think their decisions came much later in their lives actually. I doubt either of them felt that way since childhood. Seems to me it was a mindset they picked up in Hollywood.

Holy. Crap. This might be the most idiotic thing I've read this year.

[Dai Grepher]

That canon does not specify if Alistair is paired with anyone, either with Anora or the female Warden (Queen or mistress).

Female Dalish Warden is dead.

It also doesn't state whether the Warden is likely to be still alive or if the Dark Ritual happened. All we know for sure is that Alistair is king.

So it's a different worldstate than the default in Inquisition? Because the female Dalish Warden is dead in that one, and Alistair is married to Anora.

It just seems odd that Varric wouldn't bring it up. Seems like a better thing to say in that instance. Also could have been a chance to poke fun.

BUT, the final panels of the comics show Alistair sitting on the throne looking very unhappy about the continued state of things and being king, which seems to me to suggest that he is ruling alone. So no, I don't believe Anora, or Warden Queen, is around in that canon of events.

Huh. So that would imply two different worldstates between the comic and Inquisition.

[Dai Grepher]

Holy. Crap. This might be the most idiotic thing I've read this year.

Why? Haven't you seen the Matrix movies?

[Jedi Comedian]

Of course I know that, but do most in the LGBT crowd? I just wonder if they would see making Tilani attracted to females as well a sort of cop-out, or diminishing to the character's self-perception as a woman who likes the opposite sex.


It would be interesting to see how they would respond to that scenario. I imagine some being angry for the typical malcontent reasons, but I can also see your point that some would prefer that.


Well that's all a question of coding. Tell the coders to make it work, or else they're all polygaphobic bigots.


Well you implied that those being lectured to in this thread on pronoun usage were homophobes.

Because those people are the very same that said romancing Mae was gay or that bottoming is unmanly.

[Jedi Comedian]

They are a funny example. Two people who achieved success from a movie series they never would have thought up had they not at one point been testosterone fueled males, then after that success abandoned what they were and have done nothing of note since. I think their decisions came much later in their lives actually. I doubt either of them felt that way since childhood. Seems to me it was a mindset they picked up in Hollywood.

A mindset they picked up in Hollywood? Hollywood is not exactly pro-lgbt.

I don't really like their filmography (save for the excellent first Matrix film) but I seriously doubt only dudes can do something like that. Heck I'd say Quentin Tarantino's latest films are extremy lame, specially compared to his beginnings.

[Sifr]

Which would be fine if the issue was eschewing calling her "Mae" in favour of Maevaris.

 

The problem however is that neither of those feminine sounding names are being applied to her by some people. While it's not always rude to refer to someone by their surname, it does have the undertone of being disrespectful if applied to a trans individual, because it makes it sound like the speaker is rejecting their personal name in favour of the surname they always held, regardless of what their sex was at the time.

 

It'd be like referring to Caitlyn Jenner as simply "Jenner"... it's not being overtly rude by the speaker going so far as to openly state their intention to refuse to call her anything other than Bruce, but it does seem to deliberately go out of the way to not refer to her as Caitlyn either, making it seem like an intended slight and rejection of that identity.

 

 Jenner admitted to wanting to date males. Or so I saw in a Yahoo! headline that I passed over.
 

Jenner knows perfectly well that's one bell you can't un-ring.
 

Current rumor is Jenner regrets the decision and wants to go back. Again, Yahoo! headline I didn't bother to click on.

 

Huh, not really surprised that I predicted this would happen over a week ago... 

 

(Also amusing that you continue to avoid sources that would provide actual evidence  to back up your claims)

[Andraste_Reborn]

They are a funny example. Two people who achieved success from a movie series they never would have thought up had they not at one point been testosterone fueled males, then after that success abandoned what they were and have done nothing of note since.

 

I am not touching the rest of this, but I feel compelled to state that Sense8 is my favourite current TV show. (Can't wait for Season Two! They've been filming at the Sao Paulo Pride Parade and we've already got some great set photos.)

[9TailsFox]

Yes, but the segment that complains is always the loudest. Some trans persons liked the Tilani character, but all it took was one trans blogger complaining to get David Gaider wringing his hands and bowing his head in apology.


But will they see it as a slight against Tilani's self identification?


My concern is what viewpoint will be most dominant. If the majority will disapprove of the character then there's no reason to include it as anything other than an NPC.

This is main Bioware problem in general they overcompensate. DA2 levels to small now we have DA:I levels  me personally just wanted more than one dungeon you know like in DA:O not DA:I empty levels. 

[Illyria]

I didn't see the things that way, very well, I shall not bother in this thread any longer, although I think is kind of naive believe that there won't be haters around.


Actually, I don't think that I have heard of them on the time of ancient Greece, in fact not prior to the fall of Rome, I suppose the Bible may have screwed it.

 

I'm not naive.  I knew this would happen in a Mae thread, just as it happens in every Krem thread (there's a reason why he doesn't have a fan thread - they just get closed after the transphobes show up).

 

Clearly, Qun00 disagrees with your opinion.



Is this thread about homosexuality? Are you suggesting that Tilani is a homosexual male?

Anyway, a phobia requires one to be irrational. As long as those here can explain their rationale, they cannot possibly be phobic.

And yet again: it's not an opinion.

 

And for for anyone playing the drinking game, down the glass now the dictionary definition of phobia has been brought in.

 

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things. There are plenty of bisexual and lesbian trans women. I mean, we can infer that Mae isn't a lesbian because she was happily married to a dude, but I don't see anything wrong with her being bi. I think there are some trans women who would like the opportunity to romance her while playing as a woman, so I imagine it would please people on the whole.

 

I'd be fine with Mae being poly, too, if they wanted to do that. However, BioWare have already said that the easiest way for them to do a poly romance would be for the player character to romance an already-established couple. Unless Mae has met someone new between the comics and whenever DA4 is set, she's single.

 

Doesn't Charter get a girlfriend in Magekiller? (I've not read it yet, but I've heard some stuff)  Maybe we'll get her as a poly LI?  Charter is in my list of characters I'd love to see return in a major role, and since she's in a comic and gets a lot of backstory in WOT2 there's a chance BW are setting her up for this.

 

As I've said before, and it bears repeating, it's not a hive mind or collective consciousness. Not all LGBT people feel the same about every issue.

 

You don't get into the hivemind until you're a level 10 supergay.

 

That canon does not specify if Alistair is paired with anyone, either with Anora or the female Warden (Queen or mistress). It also doesn't state whether the Warden is likely to be still alive or if the Dark Ritual happened. All we know for sure is that Alistair is king.

BUT, the final panels of the comics show Alistair sitting on the throne looking very unhappy about the continued state of things and being king, which seems to me to suggest that he is ruling alone. So no, I don't believe Anora, or Warden Queen, is around in that canon of events.

 

The comics hint that the worldstate is slightly different from the default, since it's implied that Alistair and Bela slept together (which requires a hardened and romanced Alistair) and that he performed the Dark Ritual (which means he and the Warden are both alive).

 

I am not touching the rest of this, but I feel compelled to state that Sense8 is my favourite current TV show. (Can't wait for Season Two! They've been filming at the Sao Paulo Pride Parade and we've already got some great set photos.)

 

This is on my list of shows to watch!  I've heard a lot of good things about it.

[nightscrawl]

Doesn't Charter get a girlfriend in Magekiller? (I've not read it yet, but I've heard some stuff)  Maybe we'll get her as a poly LI?  Charter is in my list of characters I'd love to see return in a major role, and since she's in a comic and gets a lot of backstory in WOT2 there's a chance BW are setting her up for this.

Spoiler

Yes, Charter becomes involved with the main female character from the Magekiller comics.

I have various thoughts on that, some of which I've posted in the Magekiller thread, that I don't want to cloud this thread with. Suffice to say that I had previously wanted Charter as a f/f option, whether bi or gay, but now I don't.
 

You don't get into the hivemind until you're a level 10 supergay.

Good to know! Actually, I suppose it should be referred to as the Collective, since some people think they want to assimilate everyone. "Come to the dark side. We have rainbow frosted cookies and layer cakes!"

 

Spoiler

 

The comics hint that the worldstate is slightly different from the default, since it's implied that Alistair and Bela slept together (which requires a hardened and romanced Alistair) and that he performed the Dark Ritual (which means he and the Warden are both alive).

I think my wording must have been off since both you and Grepher seemed to think that I was comparing the default canon with the comic canon. I know that David Gaider used his own canon for the comics. In another thread, there was some discussion about the DR and I think it's open to interpretation based on the lines in the comic. I think this was also the case for the Isabela thing (I'll have to reread it), since that is forcing a threeway on the player, which I would be against (the forcing it part). Also, they are generally pretty vague about anything along those lines, which is shown in Asunder and The Masked Empire, neither of which say anything about the DAO or DA2 PC other than they existed -- the Warden also apparently liked Wynne and gave her a staff.

 

But there is nothing explicitly stated about any of the major points: whether the Warden is alive, whether the DR was done, whether Alistair has (or had) a partner. All we know for certain is that Alistair is alive and king. That is all.

[First Enchanter]

I'd be really surprised if she didn't appear in some capacity.

 

Honestly, I'd love for her to be a companion if the writers feel like there's good material going that way. She seems like a fun character.

 

Edit: I also hope they can find a trans actress to voice her if she does appear.

[Illyria]

Spoiler

Yes, Charter becomes involved with the main female character from the Magekiller comics.

I have various thoughts on that, some of which I've posted in the Magekiller thread, that I don't want to cloud this thread with. Suffice to say that I had previously wanted Charter as a f/f option, whether bi or gay, but now I don't.
 

Good to know! Actually, I suppose it should be referred to as the Collective, since some people think they want to assimilate everyone. "Come to the dark side. We have rainbow frosted cookies and layer cakes!"

 

Spoiler

 

I think my wording must have been off since both you and Grepher seemed to think that I was comparing the default canon with the comic canon. I know that David Gaider used his own canon for the comics. In another thread, there was some discussion about the DR and I think it's open to interpretation based on the lines in the comic. I think this was also the case for the Isabela thing (I'll have to reread it), since that is forcing a threeway on the player, which I would be against (the forcing it part). Also, they are generally pretty vague about anything along those lines, which is shown in Asunder and The Masked Empire, neither of which say anything about the DAO or DA2 PC other than they existed -- the Warden also apparently liked Wynne and gave her a staff.

 

But there is nothing explicitly stated about any of the major points: whether the Warden is alive, whether the DR was done, whether Alistair has (or had) a partner. All we know for certain is that Alistair is alive and king. That is all.

 

Asunder also confirms that Return to Ostagar was completed since the staff the Warden gives her is the one that you can loot from the chest the Tranquil was guarding.

 

I'm just glad that Charter is a sapphic character, although I'm sad that she likely wont be an LI, unless she's the poly option.