720 réponses à ce sujet

[FemHawke FTW]

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Very nice

[Illyria]

As I said, pointless. So let's have some more art

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I like this one.  A lot of Mae fanart makes her look really young, but she's got to be in her late 30s at the youngest.

[Catilina]

I do not know whether it had been:

 

 

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And one from me (do not laugh... too loud, just first sketch)

 

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[nightscrawl]

As I said, pointless. So let's have some more art

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Ooh I really like styles that are sort of sketchy. Very nice.
 
 

Very well, it was a boring conversation anyways.
 
Did someone else already post this fanart? I think it's cute.
 

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Another person attempting to capture the Tevinter aestheitc. This reminds me of the type of styles that you often see in a fashion designer's sketchbook (on Project Runway and whatnot).

[veeia]

Yikes, I've been gone awhile, I see the BSN stays the same. Disappointed but not surprised, etc.

 

Anyway, I love Mae and I think she'd be a great addition to the game.  I guess I have to disagree with some of y'all, I would prefer they used a trans actress for the role. There aren't a lot of parts for trans women and there's a long history of people casting cis men in those roles anyway, which is sad. As important as trans representation in fiction is, having trans voices involved in the process (or in media creation in general) is just as important imo.  Bioware is a big company and they could use that kind of role to help raise the profile of a trans VA, which would be amazing. If they didn't choose to go that route, I would still enjoy the character. I just think its a great opportunity and would love it if they took it.

 

Love all this Mae art. Instead of being too sad by the attitudes from a few here, I'm going to focus on how great is is that so many people appreciate her even though her role has been so limited so far.

[Dai Grepher]

Having a talented voice actor, or a correct sounding voice actor, are far more important that having a trans voice actor.

[AresKeith]

Having a talented voice actor, or a correct sounding voice actor, are far more important that having a trans voice actor.

 

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[Hanako Ikezawa]

Having a talented voice actor, or a correct sounding voice actor, are far more important that having a trans voice actor.

I'm sure there is a talented correct sounding trans VA out there. 

[Sifr]

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Aye, let's leave whatever "correct sounding" means out of it. Especially since it oft-seems that certain people have a hard time understanding anything correct when it comes to the subject of Mae.

 

Personally, I'm all in favour of a talented voice actress taking the role of Mae, trans or otherwise.

[nightscrawl]

As I said previously, I just don't think that should be their sole criteria, and I don't think that will be the case.
 
We don't know how Bioware wants Mae to sound, and their vocal idea may be different from every person in this thread, who in turn have different ideas from each other. It may be that they see a large variety of people, cis men and women, and trans men and women. Perhaps they go into the audition process with one idea, hear someone's voice that is different from that concept and go, "THAT'S MAE!" I've heard of such things happening in auditions before; the actor brings something of themselves that the producers didn't know was what they wanted until it was presented to them.
 
I think the Bioware voice people are top-notch. I trust them to do their job well, because they have been doing so, and to cast the best Mae, whoever that is.
 
And to be honest, they will likely get grief either way, as with everything. Even if they get a transwoman, there will be trans people thinking that she sounds too manly, or too feminine. In this discussion, I think it's important to note that Bioware's idea of Mae's sound might not match with your own, so anything contrary to that might seem a poor choice.
 
The same thing will apply to her writer, whoever that ends up being.
 
But none of this means that they shouldn't try to do the best they can, or that, as has been stated in this thread, the potential grief isn't worth the effort; I think it absolutely IS.

Aye, let's leave whatever "correct sounding" means out of it.

Yes, please do.

[9TailsFox]

Yikes, I've been gone awhile, I see the BSN stays the same. Disappointed but not surprised, etc.

 

Anyway, I love Mae and I think she'd be a great addition to the game.  I guess I have to disagree with some of y'all, I would prefer they used a trans actress for the role. There aren't a lot of parts for trans women and there's a long history of people casting cis men in those roles anyway, which is sad. As important as trans representation in fiction is, having trans voices involved in the process (or in media creation in general) is just as important imo.  Bioware is a big company and they could use that kind of role to help raise the profile of a trans VA, which would be amazing. If they didn't choose to go that route, I would still enjoy the character. I just think its a great opportunity and would love it if they took it.

 

Love all this Mae art. Instead of being too sad by the attitudes from a few here, I'm going to focus on how great is is that so many people appreciate her even though her role has been so limited so far.

Voice actor and character be the "same" is most irrelevant think in making character.

Bioware so racist why they don't hire real aliens to voice aliens in Mass effect.

And this is voice actor of Goku/Kakarot and all his kids.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm sure there is a talented correct sounding trans VA out there.

And I'm sure a regular voice actor who fits the sound of the character is much easier to find and has more experience in the business.

Aye, let's leave whatever "correct sounding" means out of it. Especially since it oft-seems that certain people have a hard time understanding anything correct when it comes to the subject of Mae.

"Correct sounding" as in the voice being fitting for the character.

As I said previously, I just don't think that should be their sole criteria, and I don't think that will be the case.

Why should that be part of their criteria?

We don't know how Bioware wants Mae to sound, and their vocal idea may be different from every person in this thread, who in turn have different ideas from each other.

Fine. But you don't have to be trans to sound trans. Talent should be the criteria.

It may be that they see a large variety of people, cis men and women, and trans men and women. Perhaps they go into the audition process with one idea, hear someone's voice that is different from that concept and go, "THAT'S MAE!" I've heard of such things happening in auditions before; the actor brings something of themselves that the producers didn't know was what they wanted until it was presented to them.

Right, but that is assessing talent, not seeking out trans people specifically.

Even if they get a transwoman, there will be trans people thinking that she sounds too manly, or too feminine.

I doubt that. Any criticism of such a voice actor, no matter how justified, would be met with accusations of transphobia.

In this discussion, I think it's important to note that Bioware's idea of Mae's sound might not match with your own, so anything contrary to that might seem a poor choice.

That isn't my concern at all. "Correct sounding" is to be determined by BioWare. I was just pointing out that casting a trans voice actor for Tilani just because the person is trans would be a foolish move. Aside from the difficulty involved in finding such a person, there's also the matter of acting talent required to bring the character to life. If the person sounds like they're reading a script or something, then it defeats the entire purpose. And there might be someone who sounds better as Tilani, but isn't trans. Will that person be passed up in favor of a trans voice actor simply because the better actor isn't trans?

The same thing will apply to her writer, whoever that ends up being.
 
But none of this means that they shouldn't try to do the best they can, or that, as has been stated in this thread, the potential grief isn't worth the effort; I think it absolutely IS.

Why? How does it make sense to spend resources on a high risk when a better alternative is readily apparent?

I'm not suggesting put up a sign reading, "No Trans Allowed", but also don't put up a sign that reads, "Trans Only". Let anyone who wants the role audition for it. Contact talent agencies and let them know about the part and that trans voice actors might see it as an opportunity, fine. But don't have it as part of the criteria for who gets the role. It should be based on sound and acting ability.

[veeia]

fwiw I'm not saying they need to cast a trans VA. I wouldn't give them grief if they didn't, just as I haven't for their decision to cast Krem's VA. Just wanted to state the reasons why I feel it would be preferable. I'm not a game developer nor have I ever personally run casting for a AAA game, lmao, so I won't pretend to understand all the factors that go into it.

 

My comment about hiring a trans actress had nothing to do with "sound", so much as how I think it would provide an exciting opportunity for a talent pool that doesn't get utilized as often (especially for roles that reflect their own lived experiences) and is probably overflowing with people who have a lot to offer. Additionally, I think that when you have a collaborative creative process and are creating a diverse world, you benefit the most when the collaborators are diverse. Just as Gaider mentioned that having women on the writing staff was a valuable perspective, so would having trans creators/actresses in positions. I don't know if there are any trans people who work at Bioware and frankly, it's not really any of my business unless they wanted to make themselves known (and in the hostile environment that gaming often presents, I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to!) but that was my other main reason for thinking it would be a good move. There's additional value there beyond simply talent, representational (irl representation) and narrative value.

 

Either way, the inclusion of Mae would be a positive. Ultimately what matters most is that Mae has a compelling story and emotional connection to the story and characters and I trust Bioware to do that.

[thats1evildude]

It never became a big deal, but I remember there was a little stink over the fact that Indira Varma (who's of Indian descent, mind you) had been cast as Vivienne instead of a black actress.

 

Besides the fact they were basically protesting Indira Varma getting work, she was a perfect Vivienne. I can't imagine any VO doing a better job, black or otherwise. This is one of those times where a strict adherence to "representation" would be to the detriment of the art and the audience.

 

Likewise, I wouldn't say that Dave Fennoy shouldn't have been Bluebeard from The Wolf Among Us, or that Kimberly Brooks shouldn't have voiced Oracle from the Arkham games. (They're both black.)

[veeia]

Eh, I think so many conversations around these issues have become so polarized that it's difficult to put out an opinion that points in one direction (or the other) without people jumping to the conclusion that you're supporting the extreme. I don't remember anyone at that time saying Bioware shouldn't have hired Indira at all (who I agree is the perfect Viv!), just expressing frustration which really boiled down to the lack of black people involved in the process. I mean, that might not matter to you and it doesn't have to, but I think people have the right to express that as long as it doesn't become abusive or a demand. If it did cross over into that, then its not okay. There's also a difference imo between speculation/ideas that come before a decision has made and demands made after the fact. If and when they cast a VA for Mae, I trust them to make what they consider the best choice. If for some reason I don't think it's the best decision, I'm not going to turn my back on the character or the VA though. Nothing has to be perfect to be worthy, enjoyable, or have impact!

 

I think Bioware gets a lot of criticism on those regards because they are one of the companies that does consistently show they have an interest in it. I'm sure it's difficult for the devs to deal with, but I hope they can understand that it's because people care so much not just about those issues, but the characters and world they created!

 

Also to move on from that, as a dwarf enthusiast capable of making all things about my favorites, if that's a playable race in Da4 and Mae is an interactive character, then I selfishly hope she has special dialogue for them since she was married to one.   Given her ties to the Ambassadoria, if the PC dwarf was related to that, she could have an interesting relationship there.

[Dai Grepher]

fwiw I'm not saying they need to cast a trans VA. I wouldn't give them grief if they didn't, just as I haven't for their decision to cast Krem's VA.

Good. But some people did have a problem with a woman being cast to voice Krem.

Just wanted to state the reasons why I feel it would be preferable. I'm not a game developer nor have I ever personally run casting for a AAA game, lmao, so I won't pretend to understand all the factors that go into it.
 
My comment about hiring a trans actress had nothing to do with "sound", so much as how I think it would provide an exciting opportunity for a talent pool that doesn't get utilized as often (especially for roles that reflect their own lived experiences) and is probably overflowing with people who have a lot to offer.

Affirmative action then?

Additionally, I think that when you have a collaborative creative process and are creating a diverse world, you benefit the most when the collaborators are diverse.

That's only an argument to have trans people advising on the character's plot and persona, not voice acting.

[veeia]

Well, I'm fine with people being disappointed with Krem's casting. I see nothing wrong with offering feedback like that because I understand that those concerns will be considered not as things that must be implemented, but more data to work with in terms of solutions. So with that viewpoint, people expressing negativity about that is just another data point. It's not like upset fans, especially the minority that is people who are vocal about Krem's VA, can force Bioware to change things, they can only offer their perspective. For me personally, that's not a hill to die on, especially since it has already happened.

 

But no, in this case, I wouldn't consider it affirmative action. Affirmative action is intended to correct inequality when that inequality is caused by systemic barriers. It's a mandate enforced because the system cannot self-correct.  Not the case here because it's something Bioware could do themselves and don't need to be forced to.  Also, I don't have the power to force them to do so (nor would I want to). This distinction between "feedback" and "forcing" may seem pedantic to you, but I think it's important and lack of clarifying the difference between the two is what leads to a lot of arguments on here on all topics, not just this one. All I'm saying is:  this is a trans character. There are trans VAs. Large parts of the trans community has expressed a desire to see more trans characters played by trans actors instead of cis actors. Here is an opportunity to do that. It'd be cool if they did.

 

With regard to your last point, fair. But a VA is part of the process. Not that I'm implying they write the characters or could shape the story, but if Bioware empowered them to feel like they could share their perspective, it could be helpful for small things. For example, if a trans VA had worked on Krem, they might have mentioned to Patrick the complaints that emerged with his dialogue. They might not have! But we won't know. I'm not saying that Krem should have been voiced by someone else, I'm just saying that it could have that value.

 

Anyway, I'm not really interested in debating this topic at length. I'll respond if anyone has any clarification questions or whatnot, but it's really just me expressing a preference and listing my rationale, not a demand, so if you disagree, maybe agreeing to disagree is the best solution there. I don't think anyone who thinks the gender identity of Mae or any other potential trans character VAs is irrelevant is wrong, I just find it to be a more complicated matter.

[Dai Grepher]

Fine, as long as BioWare is given the freedom to choose who they hire for the job.

[Jedi Comedian]

I think Jennifer Hale did a great job with Krem, as always.

[Jedi Comedian]

IMO the actor chosen to play a certain role doesn't matter at all, the only thing that matters is that he or she does a good job. Eddie Redmayne did a good job in Danish Girl. An actor doesn't has to be like the character they're portraying, that's what acting is all about, portraying a different person.

Another example, this time, instead of gender identities, sexual orientations: Finn Jones, Loras Tyrell in GOT, who is straight, protrays a character who is gay. Wentworth Miller, Michael Scofield in Prison Break, is a gay man portraying a character who is straight. And they do their work well. Anyone can portray anyone, provided they are skilled.

[nightscrawl]

I don't think it's accurate to compare film to voice actors. In addition, SO MANY LGBT roles have gone to cis straight actors, particularly "Oscar bait" roles like for the Danish Girl, or gay men dying of AIDS -- and boy do they catch those golden statuettes, yes they do -- and so on. I really don't think the comparison is valid at all.

Also, LGBT people walk a fine line in Hollywood. If you're out, you either risk being typecast because of your orientation, or if cast in a certain type of role (perhaps as a LI in an opposite sex relationship), people will make a joke out of it. Anne Heche got crap for that when she, while dating Ellen, made Six Days Seven Nights with Harrison Ford.

 

That Wentworth Miller, a gay actor, was cast in an actiony role is really great. However, he was not out at the time of casting, and in fact denied it in an interview (I'm basing this off of the IMDb stuff). He only came out later on. That says something.

 

I'm sure there are all sorts of LGBT actors in all sorts of roles that we don't know about. Just as there are the same in professional sports. But the fact that many of them are not out (which is 100% their prerogative) does tend to skew the perspective of an outside view.

 

But a VA is part of the process. Not that I'm implying they write the characters or could shape the story, but if Bioware empowered them to feel like they could share their perspective, it could be helpful for small things.

Just as an example of the VA contributing, David Gaider once recounted an instance with the Arishok's VA from DA2. There was some line or other and the actor said that it didn't quite jive with the Qun (or something along those lines) and DG was impressed that the VA "got" the Qun in such a way as to make the suggestion.
 

For example, if a trans VA had worked on Krem, they might have mentioned to Patrick the complaints that emerged with his dialogue. They might not have! But we won't know. I'm not saying that Krem should have been voiced by someone else, I'm just saying that it could have that value.

What was wrong with Krem's lines from a trans perspective? As far as I've ever observed, all of the complaints have been from cis people who felt that they were being scolded. Then again, I would have never heard of the lesbian complaints about Sera if not for Tumblr and DG addressing those specifically on his blog, so I certainly can't say that I have exposure to everything.

 

But, you know, a person of whatever perspective only has so much weight, as they don't represent everyone. A gay man wrote Dorian and there have been a wide array of viewpoints from other gay men about the character.

[thats1evildude]

What were the complaints about Sera? She didn't like mages and therefore was the wrong type of lesbian?

[AresKeith]

What were the complaints about Sera? She didn't like mages and therefore was the wrong type of lesbian?

 

Don't forget elfie elves

[thats1evildude]

Doesn't like mages OR the Dalish? Might as well goosestep around Skyhold handing out recruitment pamphlets for ISIS.

My all-time favourite specious complaint about Sera was when her concept art depicted her with a darker complexion. When she turned out to be pale white, that was "white-washing" because:

1) elves are oppressed,
2) black people are oppressed,
3) therefore, all elves are black.

They then attempted to "fix the problem" by giving Sera the Photoshop equivalent of blackface.

http://dragonaging.t...o-undo-what-was

LOOK AT THIS THING. LOOK AT IT. SOMEONE THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHTING A WRONG WITH THIS MONSTROSITY.

[veeia]

Oh, the criticism about Krem was that there is a lot of sort of "educational" dialogue to an Inquisitor who doesn't understand what's going on, or a lot of sort of "corrective" dialogue for an Inquisitor who doesn't accept him, but a lot less supportive dialogue for someone who understands. And I mean of course in Dragon Age you will run into a lot of situations where you have to accept your character's knowledge/dialogue is limited by resources and what part of the story the writers want to highlight, but the way it ended up left it so that some people who were being represented by him felt like they had to choose between not talking to him about being trans or choosing dialogue options that made their own character say things that felt ignorant or harmful.  Patrick acknowledged this in his post on writing Krem though, and promised to learn from it.

 

To his credit as well,  in that same post, he did talk about his original draft and how when he shared it with people to get a better perspective, they pointed out some extremely problematic elements and he was able to fix them.  So clearly he did try, and as you pointed out, just the perspective of one individual doesn't mean it will be without controversy which is evident in that case as well. Again, I think these characters get such a high level of scrutinizing  because they're so rare. Hopefully one day that won't be an issue.

 

 

What were the complaints about Sera? She didn't like mages and therefore was the wrong type of lesbian?

 

What weren't the complaints about Sera, lmao.