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[nightscrawl]

For the Sera thing, there was this post, and then a follow up in this post. As I said, these posts were the ONLY place I had heard about any sort of lesbian dislike of Sera. I don't follow the Sera fandom, and actually try to stay away from anything negative about anyone, so I tend to dismiss most things.
 
 

Oh, the criticism about Krem was that there is a lot of sort of "educational" dialogue to an Inquisitor who doesn't understand what's going on, or a lot of sort of "corrective" dialogue for an Inquisitor who doesn't accept him, but a lot less supportive dialogue for someone who understands. And I mean of course in Dragon Age you will run into a lot of situations where you have to accept your character's knowledge/dialogue is limited by resources and what part of the story the writers want to highlight, but the way it ended up left it so that some people who were being represented by him felt like they had to choose between not talking to him about being trans or choosing dialogue options that made their own character say things that felt ignorant or harmful.  Patrick acknowledged this in his post on writing Krem though, and promised to learn from it.
 
To his credit as well,  in that same post, he did talk about his original draft and how when he shared it with people to get a better perspective, they pointed out some extremely problematic elements and he was able to fix them.  So clearly he did try, and as you pointed out, just the perspective of one individual doesn't mean it will be without controversy which is evident in that case as well. Again, I think these characters get such a high level of scrutinizing  because they're so rare. Hopefully one day that won't be an issue.

 
Ah gotcha, thanks.

Although this doesn't apply to me, I feel something similar concerning lesbians in regard to Dorian's personal quest. While talking to Halward, a lesbian PC doesn't have the opportunity to say anything specifically supportive, or have a "coming out" dialogue, which is a option for the male Inquisitor*. So yeah, I can totally understand feeling limited in the dialogue options. I rarely take certain paths in the Krem dialogue for that reason, in addition to my typical stance of "it's none of my business," and my attempt to weigh appropriateness and context**, which is something I employ with everyone.

 

 

* This is actually a great scene because Halward basically says, "Is that why you're here? I should have known," and Dorian gets PISSED. Even in my romance play I don't choose this option because it's not RP for my guy, but it is really awesome to see Dorian be defensive of the Inquisitor in such a way.

** There is the opportunity to ask Dorian if he and Felix were "involved" right after the man has learned his friend is dead. I mean, seriously??

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 juin 2016 - 04:34 .

[Evamitchelle]

What were the complaints about Sera? She didn't like mages and therefore was the wrong type of lesbian?

 

In my experience not liking mages is actually pretty far down the list of Sera's faults. Recurring ones I've seen: transphobic ("he's a she"), cissexist ("I thought it'd be bigger. That would have been hilarious if you were a man right."), internalized racism against elves, fetishizes qunari women, physically abusive (trying to hit Inq if brought to the Fade), emotionally manipulative (breaking up with Lavellan after WPHW), fits the "angry lesbian" trope. There's probably more I'm forgetting. Tumblr was pretty much Sera hate central after launch so she's basically been accused of every kind of -ism there is. 

[thats1evildude]

Yadda yadda yadda, wrong type of lesbian, The End.

[Lulupab]

Not wrong type of Lesbian, because I'm not sure "wrong" is the word here. But the representation is wrong indeed.

 

Sera almost fits every Lesbian stereotype, and not the good ones.  

[thats1evildude]

Well, when the LGBT community can agree on what the "right" portrayal of fictional LGBT characters is, you get back to me.

[Lulupab]

When the LGBT community can agree on what the "right" portrayal of fictional LGBT characters is, you get back to me.

 

The funny thing is none of these stereotypes are actually discussed nor acknowledged in LGBT community.

 

These stereotypes are mostly acknowledged by straight people, some of which have not seen a Lesbian in their life.

[thats1evildude]

Never in their life? You make lesbians sound like gay Loch Ness Monsters. (Lezzie?)

What lesbian stereotypes apply to Sera again?

[nightscrawl]

This thread isn't about Sera... I only referenced the issue to illustrate that not everyone of a given minority group has the same opinion on such characters, and to show that the reception of that character's portrayal is not guaranteed to be universally positive based solely on who their writer (or VA) is. Sera was written by a (I believe) straight man, and some lesbians like her portrayal. Dorian was written by a gay man, and some gay men dislike his portrayal.

[Daerog]

I wasn't sure about Sera at first, but she, Viv, and Cass became my favorite characters in DAI, and most used companions.

[FemHawke FTW]

So... How about that Maevaris Tilani? Personally I think she'd be a good companion for DA4, opinions?

[nightscrawl]

So... How about that Maevaris Tilani? Personally I think she'd be a good companion for DA4, opinions?

 
I feel ya, but at this point, the people following this thread will start to rehash the same things, which is why the subject keeps branching off. This is why I typically don't follow character threads until after a game is released, and usually after playing through it myself. The Dorian thread had eight months of speculation and random discussion before the game was released; a good chunk of those were when he was still known as Dramatic Hands Mustache Guy. During that time, the character threads were hardly deep wells of conversation.
 
Here is one interesting Mae bit from DG's tumblr:
 

... Maevaris is not in Inquisition. I know the timeline is odd for fans, as Inquisition is not a “real” thing to them, and thus—from their point of view—we could potentially change anything right up until release, but that’s simply not how it works.
 
I adore Maevaris, but as I said previously she was concepted too late to take part in Inquisition. Sorry! That doesn’t stop us, however, from using her in the future, if we care to, or from having other Tevinter (or, yes, even transgender) characters you simply don’t know anything about yet.

 
As we now know, this unknown Tevinter trans character turned out to be Krem. It is quite interesting to see bits dropped about certain characters that we had no reference for. There was something similar regarding sex scenes in the romances that he was similarly vague about that we can now look at and say, "OH that's who that is about!"

[Lulupab]

Never in their life? You make lesbians sound like gay Loch Ness Monsters. (Lezzie?)

What lesbian stereotypes apply to Sera again?

 

By "seen" I meant interacted and talked with. I obviously didn't mean observed. So basically they know nothing about them so sometimes they solely rely on stereotypes.

 

As far as stereotypes go you need to know something, they see gay men like a slight improvement to straight men. Like they are more fashionable, approachable hygienic etc... but this is the opposite for Lesbians. Mind you I'm not telling you gay men are more clean than straight men or Lesbians are dirty in comparison to straight women, but stereotypes imply so. As for which stereotypes apply to Sera Evamitchelle made clear examples, read that post.

 

However all these stereotypes has nothing to do with LGBT community, they are most invented by the masses and frequently discussed on the internet. We are talking about this because Mae might be a victim of this as well if she appears in next DA game.

 

The point of this discussion is making more realistic characters that are not entirely shaped by their sexual orientation. 

[Jedi Comedian]

This thread isn't about Sera... I only referenced the issue to illustrate that not everyone of a given minority group has the same opinion on such characters, and to show that the reception of that character's portrayal is not guaranteed to be universally positive based solely on who their writer (or VA) is. Sera was written by a (I believe) straight man, and some lesbians like her portrayal. Dorian was written by a gay man, and some gay men dislike his portrayal.

There has been gay characters in fiction I've liked a lot written by straight men, unlike Dorian.

[nightscrawl]

However all these stereotypes has nothing to do with LGBT community, they are most invented by the masses and frequently discussed on the internet. We are talking about this because Mae might be a victim of this as well if she appears in next DA game.

I'm having an issue with your phrasing here. One of the reasons that stereotypes are so harmful is that there are actual examples of them in whatever community. There are gay men in the fashion industry. There are gay male hairdressers. There are lesbians who are "butch," go about wearing short hair and plaid shirts. There are Jews who run banks and law firms. And so on. But of course, the reason this is harmful is that they are not representative of ALL of those people, and these attributes are used by the masses to remove humanity from individual persons.
 
So what exactly do you mean when you say that these "these stereotypes has nothing to do with LGBT community"? In one interview, David Gaider mentioned stereotypes, saying (emphasis is mine),

What constitutes a gay stereotype is a difficult subject. Certainly there’s a way for stereotypes to be harmful, no question, but I’ve never found agreement even within the gay community as to what a ‘proper’ representation of a gay character should be. Some suggest that gay male characters must eschew all characteristics that could be described as ‘too overt’: they cannot be effeminate, cannot be stylish, and certainly cannot be sexual without someone accusing them of being a harmful stereotype.
 
Yet I am some of these things, and I know friends who are all of these things. Are they not the ‘right’ type of gay? Are gay male characters required to be completely straight-acting and straight-looking in order to be presentable for public consumption? Must they also avoid any ‘negative’ characteristic which could be construed as a trope or some kind of commentary on gay people at large?

If you're saying that the gay community does not use stereotypes amongst themselves, I would suggest otherwise. A minority group, whichever* that is, is not exempt from that sort of behavior within themselves, as contrary as it may seem. I would give examples, and I will if you want, but I don't want to clutter this thread with it.

 

 

[edit]

Changed "whatever" to "whichever" here for clarity, since that previous usage could be read as dismissive.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 juin 2016 - 10:50 .

[nightscrawl]

There has been gay characters in fiction I've liked a lot written by straight men, unlike Dorian.

 
Does that mean you're one of those gay men who dislikes the way he was portrayed? Are you agreeing with my overall point, or what? Because, again, my point is that people in those groups will not all be in agreement on the portrayal of those characters.

[Jedi Comedian]

Does that mean you're one of those gay men who dislikes the way he was portrayed? Are you agreeing with my overall point, or what? Because, again, my point is that people in those groups will not all be in agreement on the portrayal of those characters.

Dorian was simply not the type of character I fancy, that's all.

[Lulupab]

I'm having an issue with your phrasing here. One of the reasons that stereotypes are so harmful is that there are actual examples of them in whatever community. There are gay men in the fashion industry. There are gay male hairdressers. There are lesbians who are "butch," go about wearing short hair and plaid shirts. There are Jews who run banks and law firms. And so on. But of course, the reason this is harmful is that they are not representative of ALL of those people, and these attributes are used by the masses to remove humanity from individual persons.
 
So what exactly do you mean when you say that these "these stereotypes has nothing to do with LGBT community"? In one interview, David Gaider mentioned stereotypes, saying (emphasis is mine),

If you're saying that the gay community does not use stereotypes amongst themselves, I would suggest otherwise. A minority group, whichever* that is, is not exempt from that sort of behavior within themselves, as contrary as it may seem. I would give examples, and I will if you want, but I don't want to clutter this thread with it.

 

 

[edit]

Changed "whatever" to "whichever" here for clarity, since that previous usage could be read as dismissive.

 

It doesn't matter who uses these stereotypes, they simply exist. But if you look at who actually invented them its not the LGBT communities because most of these stereotypes are older than the word LGBT itself. 

 

As you said these are minority groups, if you went to a place where these minorities are actually majority (a few exist, such as West Hollywood where 60% of city are gay men) you will see that they don't really use these stereotypes at all. Of course I don't mean to apply this to everywhere but my actual point is LGBT's view on Stereotypes is simply ignoring them. At worst  they are nuisance that are not even worth fighting against. But this doesn't stop anyone from using them, even people inside LGBT itself. After all they are living in our societies. Also some actually enjoy following these stereotypes. For example nowadays a very well fashioned man is always bound to be asked if he is gay or not. 

[raging_monkey]

So... How about that Maevaris Tilani? Personally I think she'd be a good companion for DA4, opinions?

I tnk she a be a good one personally I'm hoping that they do the fallout routine regarding companions

[CrimsonN7]

So... How about that Maevaris Tilani? Personally I think she'd be a good companion for DA4, opinions?

 

Don't know much about her as I never read any of the DA comics? she was in.

Only know the basics, her role in Tevinter and that she's besties with Dorian. I'm gonna like her if she's good pals with Dorian tbh.   

[Jedi Comedian]

nowadays a very well fashioned man is always bound to be asked if he is gay or not.

**** that mindset.

[Biotic Apostate]

It doesn't matter who uses these stereotypes, they simply exist. But if you look at who actually invented them its not the LGBT communities because most of these stereotypes are older than the word LGBT itself. 

 

As you said these are minority groups, if you went to a place where these minorities are actually majority (a few exist, such as West Hollywood where 60% of city are gay men) you will see that they don't really use these stereotypes at all. Of course I don't mean to apply this to everywhere but my actual point is LGBT's view on Stereotypes is simply ignoring them. At worst  they are nuisance that are not even worth fighting against. But this doesn't stop anyone from using them, even people inside LGBT itself. After all they are living in our societies. Also some actually enjoy following these stereotypes. For example nowadays a very well fashioned man is always bound to be asked if he is gay or not. 

I don't know, if I misunderstood your point, but the LGBT community absolutely has people that stereotype against other LGBT people. Go on any dating service, and you'll see many, who think that effeminate gay men are worse, or connect the lisp with a certain type of person. The 'bottom = less of a man' stereotype is also perpetrated by gay men themselves (going as far back as to the Vikings)

 

As nightscrawl said, there is no consensus. Mae will be disliked by some trans people, just like some gay men disliked Dorian. With minority characters writers should strive to make their story and characterisation good (just like with any character) and make sure they don't keep writing them in the same way every time. That way everyone will find someone, who they feel represents them. There will never be a character to rule them all. Sera, Dorian, and Kream are not bad LGBT characters, they have their fandoms. The fact that some dislike them does in no way influence how good they are written.

 

So don't worry about Mae hitting some stereotypes about trans people, concentrate on wanting her to be well written.

[Jedi Comedian]

Curious how ME despite not introducing them till ME3 has given us non-stereotyped lgbt chars with Cortez, Traynor and Kaidan, yet in DA which has had them since the begining hasn't done so well IMO.

[thats1evildude]

I wouldn't necessarily hold up ME's record with LGBT characters and proclaim "This is how you do it."

[Jedi Comedian]

I wouldn't necessarily hold up ME's record with LGBT characters and proclaim "This is how you do iit.

OF ****** COURSE NOT. Only said I find them better than DA ones.

[Carmen_Willow]

Companion, maybe, but no more "advisors." Those were pretty much a waste and could've served just as well as companions. Ultimately they contributed to us having TWELVE characters to try and get to know, which is why most of them were pencil thin in terms of characterization and story.

I liked the advisers.  I thought it gave an extra poignancy to have Cullen send me off into danger, no doubt worrying each time about the outcome. And an Inquisitor needs advisors. You're the head of the organization for heaven's sake. Someone's got to do the day-to-day running of the divisions. It was different with Origins and Kirkwall - there you were just the head of a small band of special forces. If the next hero is going to be in charge of a large organization, or if the Inquisitor comes back, advisors need to be in place. You have to have some realism. I mean Eisenhower didn't command the Allied Army alone, he had generals underneath him who stood around his table, gave him intel, advice and all that. I realize it's a bureaucracy, but the Inquisition IS  bureaucracy now, isn't it?