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[Lulupab]

I don't know, if I misunderstood your point, but the LGBT community absolutely has people that stereotype against other LGBT people. Go on any dating service, and you'll see many, who think that effeminate gay men are worse, or connect the lisp with a certain type of person. The 'bottom = less of a man' stereotype is also perpetrated by gay men themselves (going as far back as to the Vikings)

 

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As nightscrawl said, there is no consensus. Mae will be disliked by some trans people, just like some gay men disliked Dorian. With minority characters writers should strive to make their story and characterisation good (just like with any character) and make sure they don't keep writing them in the same way every time. That way everyone will find someone, who they feel represents them. There will never be a character to rule them all. Sera, Dorian, and Kream are not bad LGBT characters, they have their fandoms. The fact that some dislike them does in no way influence how good they are written.

 

So don't worry about Mae hitting some stereotypes about trans people, concentrate on wanting her to be well written.

 

That really makes sense, although I was talking about the social factor of stereotypes. Minorities wouldn't stereotype each other if they only lived among themselves, but that's a rarity. Just like French people wouldn't create a French stereotype about themselves, unless its a positive one. But when minorities lived with majorities they tend to do it, in this case the viking is not a bad example.

 

But yeah, the writing quality is more important than her hitting some stereotype.

[Nixou]

I'd prefer to have her as an advisor: make her a companion and you get Vivienne the Second: a seasoned Magister/Enchanter joining the team at level seven despite being known for her great magical prowesses in-universe.

[veeia]

It's interesting to see a lot of talk about stereotypes. I know it's emerging because of talking about the umbrella LGBT, but I'm actually not too worried about Bioware when it comes to what I think are the most damaging dominant trans narratives, like it being caused by mental health problems (instead of often being comorbid with them because of the issues they face) or them being inherently devious or trying to trick people, or the kind of 'misery porn' where their lives are defined only by that struggle and they ultimately lose because they cannot find peace (or they're killed). IME, that kind of narrative happens when people try to write about trans people without taking the time to fully research or understand them because they assume they know what it is like based on media exposure and/or their limited imagination. Bioware (and Patrick in particular) has shown that isn't the way they approach it.

 

It is entirely possible that as more and more trans characters are created that certain stereotypes will become more engrained into the cultural fabric, but at this point, I don't see a lot of them that are similar to the "sassy effeminate gay man" or "angry lesbian." Those are attempts to pidgeonhole LGB people as only being one type of person, while the trans tropes I outlined are generally negate trans personhood entirely.  Both are bad, obviously, and someone who is LGB and trans has to deal with the intersection of all that. But because the trans ones are so obviously bad, while the LGB ones like those said there are much more complicated, it's easier to process.

 

..I hope that makes sense, lmao. I have faith in them to do well by her, as long as they continue to interrogate how they are shaping her narrative. Which I believe they will.

[CuriousArtemis]

I liked the advisers.  I thought it gave an extra poignancy to have Cullen send me off into danger, no doubt worrying each time about the outcome. And an Inquisitor needs advisors. You're the head of the organization for heaven's sake. Someone's got to do the day-to-day running of the divisions. It was different with Origins and Kirkwall - there you were just the head of a small band of special forces. If the next hero is going to be in charge of a large organization, or if the Inquisitor comes back, advisors need to be in place. You have to have some realism. I mean Eisenhower didn't command the Allied Army alone, he had generals underneath him who stood around his table, gave him intel, advice and all that. I realize it's a bureaucracy, but the Inquisition IS  bureaucracy now, isn't it?

 

Okay, several things here...

 

I haven't romanced Cullen so I don't know if it's literally written into the game that he worries about a romanced inquisitor. If not, then that's headcanon (nothing wrong with headcanon; I've written multiple Cullen x m!Lavellan fanfics after all lol) but headcanon has nothing to do with the quality of the base game. If it IS actually written into the game, keep in mind this only occurs for a very small percentage of players, as only female humans and elves can romance Cullen. If this aspect of his storyline were more widely available I'd consider it an important aspect but it's clearly not. Take DA2, where ANY Hawke can conceivably be betrayed by their lover Anders, or be pleasantly surprised by the return of their lover Isabela. To me, that makes those characters more relevant.

 

Second, I'm not saying the inquisitor didn't need people to advise them; I'm saying the three advisor characters helped give us a grand total of TWELVE companion/advisor characters, and that's too many. The bigger the cast of intimate friend characters, the thinner the characterization. Characters like Cassandra, Leliana, and Cullen could have served as advisors but also still been available to go on missions with us. As it is, this is the first DA game when I didn't really care to talk to and get to know everyone; there were just too many characters and I couldn't force myself to care about all of them. 

 

Lastly, compare this to Mass Effect. Here again you have a character who is a leader of an organization/mission but also needs assistance from their advisors. The writers handled it very well there, making Anderson and Hackett your advisors; these are not intimate characters you get to know and can possibly romance. They are side characters who simply serve an important purpose. (That said I do think ME messed up with non-companion romances like Cortez and Traynor; these guys were also pretty thin in terms of characterization, and it was a really awkward and badly done way to make up for the lack of gay romances in the franchise. I would've gotten rid of Traynor and Cortez and just, maybe, made EDI and James the new gay romances.)

[CuriousArtemis]

It's interesting to see a lot of talk about stereotypes. I know it's emerging because of talking about the umbrella LGBT, but I'm actually not too worried about Bioware when it comes to what I think are the most damaging trans narratives, like it being caused by mental health problems (instead of often being comorbid with them because of the issues they face) or them being inherently devious or trying to trick people, or the kind of 'misery porn' where their lives are defined only by that struggle and they ultimately lose because they cannot find peace (or they're killed). IME, that kind of narrative happens when people try to write about trans people without taking the time to fully research or understand them because they assume they know what it is like based on media exposure and/or their limited imagination. Bioware (and Patrick in particular) has shown that isn't the way they approach it.

 

It is entirely possible that as more and more trans characters are created that certain stereotypes will become more engrained into the cultural fabric, but at this point, I don't see a lot of them that are similar to the "sassy effeminate gay man" or "angry lesbian." Those are attempts to pidgeonhole LGB people as only being one type of person, while the trans tropes I outlined are generally negate trans personhood entirely.  Both are bad, obviously, and someone who is LGB and trans has to deal with the intersection of all that. But because the trans ones are so obviously bad, while the LGB ones like those said there are much more complicated, it's easier to process.

 

..I hope that makes sense, lmao. I have faith in them to do well by her, as long as they continue to interrogate how they are shaping her narrative. Which I believe they will.

 

Huh, I'm surprised you have such faith because the DA team has really been awful about LGB stereotypes. We've had three, count em, THREE promiscuous bisexuals, one effeminate sassy gay man, and one... um, well, how do you even describe Serendipity without being offensive? And don't forget the stereotypical gay couple Wade and Herrin. Then you have the massively awkward handling of a BDSM relationship that has been heavily criticized. 

 

But I have to admit, Krem was great. Minus the very awkward dialogue choices BioWare gave us that let us rudely question his gender identity, and the in-your-face JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T GET IT conversations between Krem and Iron Bull (about Krem using a binder, essentially). All in all I would say it was a great second attempt, though, with a bit of awkwardness here and there.

[veeia]

I think the large cast of advisers/companions fit Inquisition because of it's large scale nature. I actually enjoyed that I didn't find it natural to best friend everyone on a single PT, because it added to replay value and also made logical sense. 

 

Also, if there were less people involved, then people who choose not to recruit Cole, Sera, Viv, IB, or Blackwall for RP reasons would have probably felt like they weren't getting a full experience. Given that there's been a lot of fan debate over the viability of optional characters to tell a coherent story vs player agency to remove characters that don't fit their roleplay, I think that was a valuable addition.

 

But that's all just my perspective, I can understand yours too.

 

With Da4, I think it will depend on the demands of the story. Since we don't know how it will be framed, it's hard to say whether or not the advisor mechanic would work. Mae (or any equivalent character) wouldn't have to fill that specific role to be a valuable non-companion NPC with a decent story and screentime. 

[veeia]

Huh, I'm surprised you have such faith because the DA team has really been awful about LGB stereotypes. We've had three, count em, THREE promiscuous bisexuals, one effeminate sassy gay man, and one... um, well, how do you even describe Serendipity without being offensive? And don't forget the stereotypical gay couple Wade and Herrin. Then you have the massively awkward handling of a BDSM relationship that has been heavily criticized. 

 

But I have to admit, Krem was great. Minus the very awkward dialogue choices BioWare gave us that let us rudely question his gender identity, and the in-your-face JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T GET IT conversations between Krem and Iron Bull (about Krem using a binder, essentially). All in all I would say it was a great second attempt, though, with a bit of awkwardness here and there.

 

I do agree they've had serious issues with that. I think that one of the reasons they'll do better with a trans character is because there's a larger awareness of the harmful trans tropes being actually harmful and no one, at least in their position, can plead ignorance about the stakes. By that I mean there's a lot of dialogue going around that suggests LGB issues are "solved", especially after the Marriage Equality Act (this is a US perspective, apologies, but it's all I can speak from with any authority), but given the state of trans rights combined with the fact that mainstream discussion of it as a serious issue is both very current and newer, it can't be set aside as easily. I think they'll be more careful there, is what I'm saying, because they're more aware of their own ignorance and there is also more pressure.

 

And their responses to things like Serendipity and the issues with Krem have been much more decisive than their responses to criticism about the other tropes. The former they will admit was a mistake or attempt to reframe (weren't they claiming Serendipity is a cis drag queen and not a trans woman? at any rate, I know they don't consider Serendipity trans representation) while the latter results in a much more defensive reaction where the inclusion of such things is justified.

 

Does that make sense?

[thats1evildude]

Huh, I'm surprised you have such faith because the DA team has really been awful about LGB stereotypes. We've had three, count em, THREE promiscuous bisexuals, one effeminate sassy gay man, and one... um, well, how do you even describe Serendipity without being offensive? And don't forget the stereotypical gay couple Wade and Herrin. Then you have the massively awkward handling of a BDSM relationship that has been heavily criticized.

 

Oh Good Lord, not promiscuous. NOT PROMISCUOUS.

 

 

I forgot that section of the writer's manual that all LGBT characters should be pure, innocent angels with rainbows shining out their arses. That's also why they kick the bucket so frequently: they're too good for his sinful, heteronormative earth.

 

Bioware characters should be reflective of their audience, who are as pure as wind-blown snow.

[Jedi Comedian]

Oh Good Lord, not promiscuous. NOT PROMISCUOUS.



I forgot that section of the writer's manual that all gay characters should be pure, innocent angels with rainbows shining out their arses. That's also why they kick the bucket so frequently: they're too good for his sinful, heteronormative earth.

My fav gay chars are not exactly pure.

Non-stereotyped doesn't mean a Mary Sue for **** sake.

[CuriousArtemis]

Forum lag... double post >.< 

[veeia]

Oh Good Lord, not promiscuous. NOT PROMISCUOUS.

 

All Bioware characters should be reflective of their audience, who are as pure and empty of lust as wind-blown snow.

 

I love the promiscuous characters, but that doesn't mean I disagree that there's an issue with bisexual characters largely being portrayed as promiscuous, especially since that reflects a real world stereotype of bisexual people that I, as a bisexual woman, have experienced a lot of real world grief from people perceiving that it's a trait inherent to bisexuality.  This type of criticism is about patterns across both overall media and Bioware in general, not about individuals. Does that make sense to you conceptually, even if you don't care or disagree?

[CuriousArtemis]

Does that make sense?

 

Yep... nicely said (and I posted this previously but it's disappeared...)

[Biotic Apostate]

I do agree they've had serious issues with that. I think that one of the reasons they'll do better with a trans character is because there's a larger awareness of the harmful trans tropes being actually harmful and no one, at least in their position, can plead ignorance about the stakes. By that I mean there's a lot of dialogue going around that suggests LGB issues are "solved", especially after the Marriage Equality Act (this is a US perspective, apologies, but it's all I can speak from with any authority), but given the state of trans rights combined with the fact that mainstream discussion of it as a serious issue is both very current and newer, it can't be set aside as easily. I think they'll be more careful there, is what I'm saying, because they're more aware of their own ignorance and there is also more pressure.

While it's true many in the US have to turned to trans people as their punching bag after marriage equality was won, LGB rights are far from "solved." Even if we ignore the rest of the world (which is a weird approach, BW is from Canada, where LGBT rights are years ahead compared to the US, and they sell their games worldwide, including countries where all of LGBT have a crappy situation), US still has to pass the Equality Act, because you can marry your same-sex partner, but be fired or thrown out of your apartment for it. It's far from solved.

 

Krem is a far better "first," because he's in a 2014 BW game. If he was in Origins or Jade Empire, they would have approached the character will a lot less caution. And again, people are saying Dorian is super stereotypical, while ignoring the fact a gay man has written him. It's less about being cautious with especially trans characters and more about people disliking a certain type of representation and calling it stereotyping. 

[thats1evildude]

While it's true many in the US have to turned to trans people as their punching bag after marriage equality was won, LGB rights are far from "solved." Even if we ignore the rest of the world (which is a weird approach, BW is from Canada, where LGBT rights are years ahead compared to the US, and they sell their games worldwide, including countries where all of LGBT have a crappy situation), US still has to pass the Equality Act, because you can marry your same-sex partner, but be fired or thrown out of your apartment for it. It's far from solved.

 

Krem is a far better "first," because he's in a 2014 BW game. If he was in Origins or Jade Empire, they would have approached the character will a lot less caution. And again, people are saying Dorian is super stereotypical, while ignoring the fact a gay man has written him. It's less about being cautious with especially trans characters and more about people disliking a certain type of representation and calling it stereotyping. 

 

Ah, well said.

[veeia]

While it's true many in the US have to turned to trans people as their punching bag after marriage equality was won, LGB rights are far from "solved." Even if we ignore the rest of the world (which is a weird approach, BW is from Canada, where LGBT rights are years ahead compared to the US, and they sell their games worldwide, including countries where all of LGBT have a crappy situation), US still has to pass the Equality Act, because you can marry your same-sex partner, but be fired or thrown out of your apartment for it. It's far from solved.

 

Krem is a far better "first," because he's in a 2014 BW game. If he was in Origins or Jade Empire, they would have approached the character will a lot less caution. And again, people are saying Dorian is super stereotypical, while ignoring the fact a gay man has written him. It's less about being cautious with especially trans characters and more about people disliking a certain type of representation and calling it stereotyping. 

 

Oh, I agree with this. I think that because LGB legal rights have seen some progress, people have become more complacent and feel like there is less urgency there. But the legal rights, as you said, are not even as strong as they need to be, and as we have seen with women and people of color,  establishing legal equality is not the end to resolving issues, but a basis to begin doing it with. I just think that there is a stronger perception that LGB issues are resolved or probably more likely in Bioware's case, that they are further along for everyone than they actually are because often people in a liberal bubble don't realize the extent of discrimination outside of it. I also think your point about Krem being in a game in 2014 is exactly the point I was making, that because it's a current issue and one that understanding of, especially in liberal bubbles, has grown exponentially, that they are less likely to make major mistakes.

 

wrt to Dorian, it's complicated and right now I don't have the time to talk about it and perhaps that's for the best, because its not the best thread for a debate on that. My main point in talking about that kind of stuff is that I don't think its that useful to compare there when you're talking about trans representation unless its used as a base that is built on. LGBT is an umbrella term, but everyone under it faces specific issues, and I think trans issues in particular should be examined with that understanding, unless of course it's about a character who is both trans and LGB.

[Illyria]

 

Oh Good Lord, not promiscuous. NOT PROMISCUOUS.

 

 

I forgot that section of the writer's manual that all LGBT characters should be pure, innocent angels with rainbows shining out their arses. That's also why they kick the bucket so frequently: they're too good for his sinful, heteronormative earth.

 

Bioware characters should be reflective of their audience, who are as pure as wind-blown snow.

 

The 'promiscious bisexual' is a stereotype of bisexual people, and the issue is that every openly bi (as in, the characters who make it clear they're into more than one gender) character fall into this.  Characters who don't fall into this (like Merrill, Josie and Fenris) are often assumed straight, or to be 'playersexual'.  The pure, chantry type (like Seb, Alistair or Cass) are always heterosexual, and BW don't seem able to write a bi character who is obviously bi without them falling into this stereotype.

[thats1evildude]

Cough cough Leliana and the Divine cough cough cough

[Biotic Apostate]

The 'promiscious bisexual' is a stereotype of bisexual people, and the issue is that every openly bi (as in, the characters who make it clear they're into more than one gender) character fall into this.  Characters who don't fall into this (like Merrill, Josie and Fenris) are often assumed straight, or to be 'playersexual'.  The pure, chantry type (like Seb, Alistair or Cass) are always heterosexual, and BW don't seem able to write a bi character who is obviously bi without them falling into this stereotype.

Anders. It's hidden from a female Hawke, but he's a bisexual character that either is with Hawke, or with no one at all for 10 years. Hardly promiscuous. And Leliana - her relationship with Marjolaine is heavily hinted, and she also doesn't fit that stereotype. I think the problem is not that BW has some promiscuous characters, but that they always end up being bisexual. Sebastian was close, but he was "reformed" by the time we meet him.

[Illyria]

Anders. It's hidden from a female Hawke, but he's a bisexual character that either is with Hawke, or with no one at all for 10 years. Hardly promiscuous. And Leliana - her relationship with Marjolaine is heavily hinted, and she also doesn't fit that stereotype. I think the problem is not that BW has some promiscuous characters, but that they always end up being bisexual. Sebastian was close, but he was "reformed" by the time we meet him.

 

'Promiscuous' was probably the wrong word to use.  Bisexual characters in BW games are generally less... morally pure (which is another negative bi sterotype).  Compare Alistair with Leli and Zev, or Seb with Isabela, Cassandra with The Iron Bull.  It's an issue in BW games that if you want the paladin you get a het LI, if you want the scoundral then they're bisexual.  And the ones that don't fit this are easily read as straight (we talked about this earlier with the FO4 companions, didn't we?)

 

(Anders, for numerous reasons, is not a character I'd take as positive bi rep.  I wont go into them here because this is not the thread).

[thats1evildude]

Well, bisexual people in fiction shouldn't be allowed to do bad things. That's just offensive.

 

Creators should follow the example of DAI, where every single non-monstrous villain is white and (if their sexuality is addressed at all) straight.

 

(Note: I actually don't care about this. I just noticed it as a trend in DAI wherein Gay=Good and Straight=EEEEEEEEEVIL)

[Biotic Apostate]

There are certainly some gaps, that's why the gay KISA thread exists. BW certainly do not have all their bases covered. And bi characters having their sexuality hidden is a problem BW faces too. But we have to disagree about Anders - I found him and Isabela to be fantastic, complex, and well-written characters, while I couldn't stand how bland Sebastian was. I'd prefer them over Alistair and Sebastian any day.

 

Edit: Also, I don't think Sebastian belongs on the morally upstanding list, he was a warmonger, who lashed out at an entire city to punish one person. Also, unlike Alistair and Cassandra, he's extremely self-righteous. I don't find him to be a positive character at all.

[Illyria]

Well, bisexual people in fiction shouldn't be allowed to do bad things. That's just offensive.

 

Creators should follow the example of DAI, where every single non-monstrous villain is white and (if their sexuality is addressed at all) straight.

 

You are missing the point entirely.

 

The problem isn't that there's morally dubious bi characters, the problem is that every openly bisexual character is morally dubious. 

 

There are certainly some gaps, that's why the gay KISA thread exists. BW certainly do not have all their bases covered. And bi characters having their sexuality hidden is a problem BW faces too. But we have to disagree about Anders - I found him and Isabela to be fantastic, complex, and well-written characters, while I couldn't stand how bland Sebastian was. I'd prefer them over Alistair and Sebastian any day.

 

Anders is complex, yes, but he's... not a very nice person (manipulation, sexism, aggressive attitude towards anyone who doesn't share his views...)  And that's all I'm going to say.

 

Seb is a character that tends to get dismissed a lot, and a great deal of his character is hidden in banter (DAI has this same issue).  But this isn't the thread for Seb vs Anders.  I agree that Bela is a wonderful character, and I'm glad BW keep bringing her back, and adding more to her story.

[thats1evildude]

The problem isn't that there's morally dubious bi characters, the problem is that every openly bisexual character is morally dubious.

 

cough cough Leliana and the Divine and Harding kinda cough cough

 

Man, that frog just keeps jumping in my throat today.

 

If only Josephine hadn't forgotten to wear the "I also like girls" sign around her neck. That would have solved so many problems.

[CuriousArtemis]

Isabela being an amazing character has nothing to do with the fact that her bisexuality was written as a trope (I like guys and girls so I WILL SLEEP WITH ANYTHING AND ANYONE WHOOHOOOO YOU KNOW US BISEXUALS BABY!!!); Isabela is probably my 2nd favorite DA character overall.

[Illyria]

cough cough Leliana and the Divine cough cough

 

Man, that frog just keeps jumping in my throat today.

 

If only Josephine hadn't forgotten to wear the "I also like girls" sign around her neck. That would have solved so many problems.

 

Oh look, it's the point whooshing over your head.  Catch it! Catch it, quickly!

 

Too late, it's gone.