720 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

I would expect Mae to appear as a non-companion NPC. As previously noted, she's the senior magister between her and Dorian, founder of their party. I don't expect Dorian to be a companion either, I expect both will effectively be in advisor-like positions.

 

Isn't that a bit overkill? They both fill the same character type: mages, Magisters, Altus, leaders of the Lucerni. They overlap more than Cassandra-Leliana and Cassandra-Cullen ever did (and still, check that the one who could overlap too much became a companion).

 

Still, now I'm wondering if Dorian will be the companion instead, knowing that Mae has that much power in the Lucerni.

 

Yeah, this is something I was trying to get at earlier. It just depresses me that so many people just flat-out say "No, I'd never romance Mae, eww" before even getting to know her ingame etc. If straight guys can romance Dorian and I can romance Cullen for reasons other than sexual interest, I don't see what the big deal with Mae is, especially since I'm certain nothing will be explicit.

 

I'm not saying everyone has to go outside their comfort zone, it's just this instant refusal only because she's trans just makes me... sad. I mean, this is a video game, we're not saying you should do that in real life. Bleh, anyway.

 

I fear that's not a very good argument. You could have people trying new things in-game and you could find people outright rejecting them, and they don't have to be the same people. The same as someone rejecting an option shouldn't stop others from enjoying it, someone enjoying it shouldn't stop others from rejecting it.

 

Bioware's games tend to be all about the options. If players don't want to explore certain routes, it's their freedom to do so. Heck, even romance in the games is a purely optional feature. In my opinion, the more options, the merrier, so there's something for everyone.

[Dai Grepher]

I understand. This is a difficult subject, isn't it? Because on one hand I acknowledge what you said, but on the other, having her as a separate option just rubs me the wrong way on principle, since it's basically saying that she's different and needs to be an extra/alternate option because she'll never be good enough for some people, and that undermines any inclusivity they are trying to convey. Hopefully that makes sense.

But Tilani is different. Being an extra option, sort of like how Solas was, would be because of the special circumstances surrounding the character. It wouldn't be any sort of judgement against the character.

Part of me also gets depressed that she wouldn't even be good enough in a video game romance, where we can be almost 100% certain there will be no explicit scenes with her and where she is for all intents and purposes the same as other options. I went out of my comfort zone to romance Cullen because I like his personality, with no attraction to him whatsoever otherwise, and I enjoyed the romance for the romance. Couldn't people do the same for Mae, if they really liked her character? Just thinking outloud here.

Nnnno. You romanced Cullen with a female character, just as I romanced Sebastian with a female character. This isn't the same as say... a straight male romancing Dorian, or a straight female romancing Sera.

A good question. I know it'll be different for everyone, just like some people were satisfied with how Krem was presented and some weren't. Personally, there were aspects of how they handled Krem I thought they could have done better, and hope they do with Mae. I just want them to not have her being trans be a big/important issue like it was for Krem and Dorian's homosexuality was for him*. I think that's the less effective way to be inclusive. Don't get me wrong, I like Krem and Dorian, it's not about that.

And then the other side complains that Tilani's identity was not prominent enough. Remember that Gaider was roasted for his presentation of Tilani in the comic by none other than the very crowd he was trying to please. Mainly because of the bare chest panel, but also because there wasn't enough "trans" content. It's a tightrope walk that BioWare is better off avoiding. They should just focus on stronger game plot.

I agree that she's definitely a great opportunity and Bioware should totally include her as a major character. I'm just not 100% on if she should be romance option. If Bioware decides to make her one, you won't hear any complaining from me, it's just that whole "depressing" thing I mentioned above making me wary.

If BioWare does it, they should at least compromise and allow players to express the full range of opinions about the issue itself as their in-game character. Not even in a mean way, just general disapproval. Weekes should remember that products should appeal to as many people as possible.

That's not really the best argument to be made against having a companion, even if it held water (though I'm not convinced it does). Most of the companions in DA are not overly important to the plot, and some have overlap. If that's also true for Mae (which I doubt), well, so what?

Um, no. Each companion was plot relevant, and had at least some commonality with each of the other companions, even if slight. Sera was probably the least relevant, but she represented the common folk, and tied to the elven race in the most basic way. Solas tied to the race heavily however, though not the Dalish specifically. Their interactions were well done. Varric had ties to the red lyrium and to Hawke. Cassandra had ties to the Chantry aspect of the plot, as well as the Mage/Templar conflict. Vivienne had ties to the Orlesian conflict, as well as Morrigan, and she was a candidate for Divine. Blackwall was tied to the Grey Warden plot, and Cole was tied to Adamant. These two characters were also alike. Dorian was tied to Tevinter and the Venatori, and had some relevant banter with Cole, Solas, and Iron Bull. And Bull was tied to the Qunari aspect and had some relevant interactions with various characters.

So the point is that Tilani would need plot relevance and common ground on which to interact with other companion characters. I don't see anything there that Dorian wouldn't fulfill better.

That's actually not how it works in real life, believe it or not.

Yes it is. Battlebloodmage stated it well in two separate posts.

That... is a very odd thing to say in regards to a roleplaying game. There are plenty of people in real life (and therefore RP options ingame) who are neutral or don't want to have kids, and that's also ignoring adoption, which would be in high-demand in Thedas right about now.

But not in Tevinter. Dorian's commentary on his homeland makes that abundantly clear.

And something similar goes for Maevaris. People marry for love all the time, which is why she was in a relationship with a dwarf. Also, she's already very wealthy, so that's basically a non-issue anyway. And who's to say our character won't have power, wealthy, and influence in DA4? In fact, I'd say it's more likely that they will than not.

I know people marry for love. My Cousland married Anora for love. My Hawke was interested in marriage to Sebastian despite the notion of a chaste marriage, which she planned to change about him, so maybe that's not the best example, but she loved him in any case. My rift mage Trevelyan was interested in marriage to Cassandra even though they are both pretty old for having children. So yeah, I get that. But that was the South. This is Tevinter. Among the mage classes, procreation is paramount. Selective breeding, as Dorian put it.

Eh, the storyline surrounding Thorold is suspect. His accidental death was also suspicious. Tilani's inheritance of his assets was also most fortunate. Also a nice excuse to go after one's enemies. So Tilani might only want a man of similar wealth and power in order to gain more influence over the Magisterium. I mean, you have to think, if Tilani has enemies in the Magisterium, which is true, then the other magisters are probably trying to attack Tilani at every turn. I wouldn't put it past them to try and entice Tilani with some strapping young man who is secretly an assassin. So I imagine Tilani is quite guarded in this respect. So any possible relationship would have to be thoroughly checked, and there would have to be something to gain for Tilani to go through with it. Also, I did acknowledge that the player character could be wealthy and powerful, but in that case the player character would be pressured by his family to marry a woman of high magical capability so that they produce powerful offspring, which is not possible with Tilani.

Why not both? It's not as if we've only had one mage companion per game, and that stark contrast between the two could be very interesting. Imagine the party banter between the filthy rich Altus Magister with bad experiences with dragon cults and the ex-slave ex-Venatori terrorist who was Corypheus' cheerleader. It almost writes itself.

True, but there are problems with that. It's already speculated that Dorian will return as a companion character. That's too many returning mages. They need to have a brand new character fulfill one of the mage slots. Also, the difference between Tilani and Calpernia is too great. Tilani worked to get the Venatori denounced in Tevinter, and even though Calpernia can turn on Corypheus, there are some worldstates in which she doesn't. So there could be bad blood there in any case. I also don't see Calpernia getting along with Tilani at all. The mindsets are just to diametrically opposed, even if both want reform.

Dorian on the other hand can already be acquainted with Calpernia, either through his own time with the Venatori, or if he was taken to the Temple of Mythal and she was to be the vessel. He's also closer to her level and can relate to what she's doing. He was much like her during Inquisition. But he's also far enough away in terms of position and prestige for there to be some mild conflict. So he's on Tilani's level, but he also has things in common with Calpernia. The only real conflict with having Dorian and Calpernia as companions is that they are both pyro-mages.

Quick question for those who think Maevaris being a romance option would be "stealing" a spot: if Mae's romance quest involved her using magic to become completely female, would that make her an acceptable LI, or would her past be too much for get past?

I think that would make no difference to heterosexuals, we would still not go along with it, and I think it would anger the LGBT crowd because they would see it as condemnation somehow.

[Dai Grepher]

There are transgender women who don't look like a "man". A lot of guys here said that transgender women are easy to tell, but I don't think it's always the case.

Not always easy, no. But those who know what to look for can tell.

She was born a guy, but she has everything changed to physically become a female. You wouldn't be able to tell, but you wouldn't believe how many comments talk about her being disgusting, being with her mean you're gay and such.

Asians are not really the best example, since their males and females have the same basic facial structure. It's much easier for them to pass. Like how most elves are in video games.

The very fact that someone used to be transgender is enough of a reason it wouldn't work for many guys especially when they could be labeled as "gay" for being with a transgender woman regardless of how good she may look.

I think for most of us it's a matter of factual reality. Only a biological female can have a female mind and be a female in our eyes.

And since you agree Mae is more influential than Dorian, it would make more sense to have her travel with us in Tevinter as a party member. She could have a role like Cassandra, both an advisor and a companion.

Tilani is more influential in the Magisterium than Dorian. So that is where Tilani should be. Dorian should be the one traveling with the party, working on the outside. Doing the things Tilani can't do or can't be seen doing. Dorian as a companion and advisor is better because most players are already familiar with him. Dorian is more influential outside the Magisterium.

Because, of course, it's bad that women role play while playing DA. What do they think this is, a role playing game?!

Just that females are far more likely to explore those options than males are.

If BW based their game design choices on how much people will access them, you would get a Mass Effect 3 with only Liara, Garrus, and Vega as companions (no one else), could only play as a male soldier (with a custom face), there'd be no option to shoot Mordin, or to sabotage the genophage cure. Oh and 64% of players missed Wrex, so let's cut him out too. And 2/3 play as paragon, out with renegade options! Insanity mode? 4%. So that's pointless too.

I have no idea what any of this is.

And if we assume BSN DAI poll results are close to general player base, you'd only have the choice to play as a human or elf, and helping the mages and doing Vivienne's quest would have been mandatory.

Quests aren't the issue, and human only was the original plan. But the point is that BioWare shouldn't waste time on something that will only be done by a small minority of players. It just doesn't make economic sense. Especially when the subject matter is a cultural minefield.

BW does a lot of stuff that's not going to be seen by the majority, but they choose to do it anyway, because they want to give us more options. If they want to do a romance with a trans person, it's because they want to, not because they think 60+% of gamers will do the romance.

They can want it all they... uh, want. But if only 3% of the players want it, then it isn't worth the time and money, especially if a larger percentage will be enraged by it.

If Mae is only interested in men, then her romance is gated to players who make male PCs and are interested in the romance. Nobody is asking you what sexuality the players are required to have to be allowed to enjoy such a romance. There were a lot of "I'm a straight male and romanced Dorian" threads, so obviously you can only speak for yourself.

A lot of threads huh? Okay. The point is that BioWare would be closing the character off to all except the male characters who statistically are most likely to reject the character, at least in terms of a deeper relationship. So it's a waste. I'm sure there will be some female players who create a male character, but a lot of female gamers don't like playing as male characters.

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, this is something I was trying to get at earlier. It just depresses me that so many people just flat-out say "No, I'd never romance Mae, eww" before even getting to know her ingame etc. If straight guys can romance Dorian and I can romance Cullen for reasons other than sexual interest, I don't see what the big deal with Mae is, especially since I'm certain nothing will be explicit.

Why are you depressed by what other people prefer?

I don't care if other straight guys can create a male character and pursue the Dorian relationship with that character. That has nothing to do with me. What about straight guys who don't want to romance Dorian and don't want to romance Tilani either?

The big deal is that Tilani is biologically male. That's a non-starter among heterosexual males.

I'm not saying everyone has to go outside their comfort zone, it's just this instant refusal only because she's trans just makes me... sad. I mean, this is a video game, we're not saying you should do that in real life. Bleh, anyway.

It isn't because Tilani is "trans". It's because Tilani is biologically male.

[Mistic]

True, but there are problems with that. It's already speculated that Dorian will return as a companion character. That's too many returning mages. They need to have a brand new character fulfill one of the mage slots.

 

Agreed. But the same as it's speculated that Dorian will return as a companion, it's also speculated (in this very thread) that Maevaris will appear as a companion. In the end, I think those two are the most likely possibilities: one will become an advisor, the other one a compnion. The question is, who? Only Bioware knows the answer.

 

Also, the difference between Tilani and Calpernia is too great. Tilani worked to get the Venatori denounced in Tevinter, and even though Calpernia can turn on Corypheus, there are some worldstates in which she doesn't. So there could be bad blood there in any case. I also don't see Calpernia getting along with Tilani at all. The mindsets are just to diametrically opposed, even if both want reform.

Dorian on the other hand can already be acquainted with Calpernia, either through his own time with the Venatori, or if he was taken to the Temple of Mythal and she was to be the vessel. He's also closer to her level and can relate to what she's doing. He was much like her during Inquisition. But he's also far enough away in terms of position and prestige for there to be some mild conflict. So he's on Tilani's level, but he also has things in common with Calpernia. The only real conflict with having Dorian and Calpernia as companions is that they are both pyro-mages.

 

I must confess that your post actually makes me want Maevaris as a companion even more, if she comes with Calpernia. Conflict! That's the source of interesting dynamics and dialogues. After all, the casting of companions in DA has never put "they get along" as a priority.

 

Eh, the storyline surrounding Thorold is suspect. His accidental death was also suspicious. Tilani's inheritance of his assets was also most fortunate. Also a nice excuse to go after one's enemies. So Tilani might only want a man of similar wealth and power in order to gain more influence over the Magisterium. I mean, you have to think, if Tilani has enemies in the Magisterium, which is true, then the other magisters are probably trying to attack Tilani at every turn. I wouldn't put it past them to try and entice Tilani with some strapping young man who is secretly an assassin. So I imagine Tilani is quite guarded in this respect. So any possible relationship would have to be thoroughly checked, and there would have to be something to gain for Tilani to go through with it. Also, I did acknowledge that the player character could be wealthy and powerful, but in that case the player character would be pressured by his family to marry a woman of high magical capability so that they produce powerful offspring, which is not possible with Tilani.

 

Your familiarity with Maevaris' backstory means that you'll also know that she's the head of her family and filthy rich, which allows her not to care a bit about causing a scandal, as stated by WoT 2. She survived being with Thorold when she was in a worse situation, so I don't see the opinion of her fellow Magisters affecting what she will or won't do regarding her private life.

 

However, Thorold is probably the main obstacle. We know that for some DA characters, a missing lover is a definite obstacle to any romantic approach.

[nightscrawl]

Look, let's be honest here. Tilani would be gated to bisexual male characters by default. Tilani is attracted to males, which rules out all female characters. Tilani is biologically male, but tries to look like a female. Heterosexual male characters will want someone who is biologically female. Homosexual male characters will want someone who looks like a male.

The game doesn't know whether your character is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. You can't even say that it does based on whomever you flirt with. Just because someone flirted with Cassandra exclusively doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual. Perhaps none of the males in DAI had any interest for them, or he only had eyes for Cassandra, or something.

You are making a lot of assumptions about what other people's characters will do.
 

Also take origin story into account. Why would Tilani start a relationship with a male who does not have power, wealth, or influence? Why would a male of a family with power, wealth, and influence want to start a relationship with someone he can't reproduce with?

For the same reason Dorian did? We already have the mere existence of Thorold to throw out your point. Not only was Thorold a man, but a dwarf and non-mage. It's pretty clear that she is willing to marry for love; she speaks about Thorold like she loved him very much, and that he was a source of emotional stability and support.

Also, WoT Vol. 2 states that Alexius married his sweetheart for love and his father was pissed about it. Poor Felix, while still a mage, had the misfortune to have limited magical ability.

Nnnno. You romanced Cullen with a female character, just as I romanced Sebastian with a female character. This isn't the same as say... a straight male romancing Dorian, or a straight female romancing Sera.

How is it not the same thing? If a person has no sexual attraction to a character, but chooses to make a PC that does and roleplay them in whatever way, how is that different? You made a female character to romance Sebastian, and a straight guy made a male to romance Dorian. Just because the straight guy is also male, doesn't mean he will see himself as a proxy in a sexual relationship with Dorian -- that's what roleplay is for, which includes gender.
 

And then the other side complains that Tilani's identity was not prominent enough. Remember that Gaider was roasted for his presentation of Tilani in the comic by none other than the very crowd he was trying to please. Mainly because of the bare chest panel, but also because there wasn't enough "trans" content. It's a tightrope walk that BioWare is better off avoiding. They should just focus on stronger game plot.

Yeah, and there were undoubtedly trans people pleased with it as well. As I said earlier, it's not a hive mind.
 

Eh, the storyline surrounding Thorold is suspect. His accidental death was also suspicious. Tilani's inheritance of his assets was also most fortunate. Also a nice excuse to go after one's enemies. So Tilani might only want a man of similar wealth and power in order to gain more influence over the Magisterium. I mean, you have to think, if Tilani has enemies in the Magisterium, which is true, then the other magisters are probably trying to attack Tilani at every turn. I wouldn't put it past them to try and entice Tilani with some strapping young man who is secretly an assassin. So I imagine Tilani is quite guarded in this respect. So any possible relationship would have to be thoroughly checked, and there would have to be something to gain for Tilani to go through with it. Also, I did acknowledge that the player character could be wealthy and powerful, but in that case the player character would be pressured by his family to marry a woman of high magical capability so that they produce powerful offspring, which is not possible with Tilani.

Did you just accuse her of murdering her husband?? I'd say that the entire Fade sequence wipes that out. She is shown to have cared for him very much. We've also seen, both in the games and other ancillary materials, that these sorts of Fade bits reveal a person's deeper feelings, fears, etc, so it was clearly an accurate depiction.

As to your last point: Dorian. He is really the counter to ANY such arguments. I'll grant you that he's an outlier for the most part, as all the good altus boys and girls will likely do as they're told, just as Dorian's own parents (who "loathed each other") did, but he IS a living example of an altus who defied tradition, and this was even before he met his Inquisitor LI; he did that all on his own.

[Battlebloodmage]

Yeah, this is something I was trying to get at earlier. It just depresses me that so many people just flat-out say "No, I'd never romance Mae, eww" before even getting to know her ingame etc. If straight guys can romance Dorian and I can romance Cullen for reasons other than sexual interest, I don't see what the big deal with Mae is, especially since I'm certain nothing will be explicit.

 

I'm not saying everyone has to go outside their comfort zone, it's just this instant refusal only because she's trans just makes me... sad. I mean, this is a video game, we're not saying you should do that in real life. Bleh, anyway.

Isn't that just preference in the end? Some people just can't roleplay certain things to that extend, like some people can't even roleplay as women, they just can't connect to a female protagonist. Yes, there are people who can romance Dorian as straight guys or Cullen as lesbians, but not everyone can do that. You can't say just because some people can do it means everyone can do it. It just doesn't work that way with how many different personalities and tastes out there. 

 

Saying you want someone just because you may want to see how it may turn out is not fair for those who want to romance based on their preference. To be honest, the backlash would actually do more harm than good considering the reaction to a random transgender NPC in Baldur's Gates. You're basically forcing to accept something in the name of progression.This is not like giving more options like having her as an extra option, but making her one of the straight option. 

[nightscrawl]

Well to be honest here, if a romance is going to happen lets not forget her age and experience. I think she wouldn't even want a relationship at this point. I think a Samara style romance would be more fitting for her. "My loving days are over but I'll make an exception for you" type of thing. I think if Vivienne was a romance option in DA:I she would be the same.

Of course this is only my opinion, I'm just considering her personality and implementation of that into her romance.

Cassandra was around 40.

I would expect Mae to appear as a non-companion NPC. As previously noted, she's the senior magister between her and Dorian, founder of their party. I don't expect Dorian to be a companion either, I expect both will effectively be in advisor-like positions.

That seems a bit redundant to have them both be in the same position.

She could still be a love interest, though her being transwoman does complicate the issue. They would need to ensure that the player is aware of her transgender status fairly early on. As nightscrawl has said, physical attractiveness for some does include what's between the legs. There's an element of sexual compatability to consider and its best to avoid accusations of Mae 'tricking' the player. That's not an attempt to placate bigots but simply acknowledging reality. Mae presents as a woman, but accepting that and being interested in a sexual relationship with someone who is biologically male are two different things.

I'll admit that part of the reason I want her as a romance option is to see what Bioware would come up with. They have the experience of her presentation in the comics (and the response to that), and Krem's presentation in the game (and the response to that), to fall back on.

[Dai Grepher]

Agreed. But the same as it's speculated that Dorian will return as a companion, it's also speculated (in this very thread) that Maevaris will appear as a companion. In the end, I think those two are the most likely possibilities: one will become an advisor, the other one a compnion. The question is, who? Only Bioware knows the answer.

I think that speculation is born from interest in the character, not from any non-biased observation of the storyline or direction of the series. With Dorian it's a safe bet because he was a companion in the last game, and he has strong relevance this time around.

There's also the fact that Tilani as a companion character... would be passed over by a lot of gamers. Personally, I would still recruit Tilani. I'm tolerant. I'd never pursue any possible romance there, but I would recruit. I might reload and reject depending on the dialogue, but initially I would recruit. I think a lot of gamers would not recruit however, and BioWare should make companion characters that the players want to recruit. I recruited Dorian, knowing what he was about ahead of time, and I was pleased with his portrayal, though his personal quest was bugged for my canon playthrough. Tilani I'm not as confident about because of Weekes comments on the issue, and making Tilani a companion might be a bridge too far even for Weekes, because he's not even confident in his own writing.

I must confess that your post actually makes me want Maevaris as a companion even more, if she comes with Calpernia. Conflict! That's the source of interesting dynamics and dialogues. After all, the casting of companions in DA has never put "they get along" as a priority.

But the difference is between functional conflict and dysfunctional conflict. Dorian and Calpernia can have conflict but still function well together. Calpernia and Tilani on the other hand I see as a mix of nitro and glycerin. I see them fighting each other to the death, honestly. I see no cooperation between them.

Your familiarity with Maevaris' backstory means that you'll also know that she's the head of her family and filthy rich, which allows her not to care a bit about causing a scandal, as stated by WoT 2.

Yeah I know, but scandal wasn't one of my points against the character. Being head of a family with no conceivable (no pun intended) future isn't really a mark in Tilani's favor. If the player character is a mage from a powerful family, then the family won't want their son's genes wasted on Tilani just as the Pavus family didn't want Dorian's genes wasted on any male. And to make a storyline out of that would be like a bad soap opera and would distract from the main storyline.

She survived being with Thorold when she was in a worse situation, so I don't see the opinion of her fellow Magisters affecting what she will or won't do regarding her private life.

I'm saying its an avenue for striking at Tilani, and therefore would be one that is closely guarded.

However, Thorold is probably the main obstacle. We know that for some DA characters, a missing lover is a definite obstacle to any romantic approach.

Maybe, maybe not. I think Tilani is the one who killed him for personal gain. Also consider Dorian's statement in Trespasser about how he received a letter that read more like a congratulations informing him of his father's death? That was likely from Tilani. Wouldn't it be an epic twist to find out that Tilani is the one who murdered Halward in order to secure Dorian as an ally in the Magisterium?

Ah, but then certain people would complain, wouldn't they?

[Hellion Rex]

I think that speculation is born from interest in the character, not from any non-biased observation of the storyline or direction of the series. With Dorian it's a safe bet because he was a companion in the last game, and he has strong relevance this time around.

There's also the fact that Tilani as a companion character... would be passed over by a lot of gamers. Personally, I would still recruit Tilani. I'm tolerant. I'd never pursue any possible romance there, but I would recruit. I might reload and reject depending on the dialogue, but initially I would recruit. I think a lot of gamers would not recruit however, and BioWare should make companion characters that the players want to recruit. I recruited Dorian, knowing what he was about ahead of time, and I was pleased with his portrayal, though his personal quest was bugged for my canon playthrough. Tilani I'm not as confident about because of Weekes comments on the issue, and making Tilani a companion might be a bridge too far even for Weekes, because he's not even confident in his own writing.


But the difference is between functional conflict and dysfunctional conflict. Dorian and Calpernia can have conflict but still function well together. Calpernia and Tilani on the other hand I see as a mix of nitro and glycerin. I see them fighting each other to the death, honestly. I see no cooperation between them.


Yeah I know, but scandal wasn't one of my points against the character. Being head of a family with no conceivable (no pun intended) future isn't really a mark in Tilani's favor. If the player character is a mage from a powerful family, then the family won't want their son's genes wasted on Tilani just as the Pavus family didn't want Dorian's genes wasted on any male. And to make a storyline out of that would be like a bad soap opera and would distract from the main storyline.


I'm saying its an avenue for striking at Tilani, and therefore would be one that is closely guarded.


Maybe, maybe not. I think Tilani is the one who killed him for personal gain. Also consider Dorian's statement in Trespasser about how he received a letter that read more like a congratulations informing him of his father's death? That was likely from Tilani. Wouldn't it be an epic twist to find out that Tilani is the one who murdered Halward in order to secure Dorian as an ally in the Magisterium?

Ah, but then certain people would complain, wouldn't they?

Wooooooow. I think you're really stretching here, in regards to Maevaris. You have no proof whatsoever. This is totally baseless speculation.

[nightscrawl]

There's also the fact that Tilani as a companion character... would be passed over by a lot of gamers. Personally, I would still recruit Tilani. I'm tolerant. I'd never pursue any possible romance there, but I would recruit. I might reload and reject depending on the dialogue, but initially I would recruit. I think a lot of gamers would not recruit however, and BioWare should make companion characters that the players want to recruit. I recruited Dorian, knowing what he was about ahead of time, and I was pleased with his portrayal, though his personal quest was bugged for my canon playthrough. Tilani I'm not as confident about because of Weekes comments on the issue, and making Tilani a companion might be a bridge too far even for Weekes, because he's not even confident in his own writing.

We don't know who would be writing her; I don't know why you assume it's PW. While not necessary (DG wrote Cassandra, and other examples), I would actually like a woman to write her, to be honest.

Why do you think people wouldn't recruit her? I really don't understand what you're getting at here. It probably won't be obvious that she's trans, and many players will be meeting her for the first time, so I don't think that bigotry would be playing a part in that.
 

But the difference is between functional conflict and dysfunctional conflict. Dorian and Calpernia can have conflict but still function well together. Calpernia and Tilani on the other hand I see as a mix of nitro and glycerin. I see them fighting each other to the death, honestly. I see no cooperation between them.

You have to remember that this would have to be presented in an alternate way for the sizeable chunk of players who sided with the mages and have no experience with Calpernia, and neither does Dorian in that playthrough. Dorian doesn't automatically have have conflict with Calpernia because, for many players' Dorians, he might not have ever encountered her.
 

Maybe, maybe not. I think Tilani is the one who killed him for personal gain. Also consider Dorian's statement in Trespasser about how he received a letter that read more like a congratulations informing him of his father's death? That was likely from Tilani. Wouldn't it be an epic twist to find out that Tilani is the one who murdered Halward in order to secure Dorian as an ally in the Magisterium?

Ah, but then certain people would complain, wouldn't they?

This whole thing is absurd and you have no evidence whatsoever to support your supposition.

[nightscrawl]

One thing that would be interesting would be if her trans status is never addressed at all for a non-romance play. I'm not suggesting that it should be hidden or ignored, but that it could be a complete non-issue. Perhaps there are certain hints here and there, leaving the player to wonder whether she is or not. As I mentioned previously, she presents as a woman in the comics, so I don't see why she has to be presented as anything other than that outside of romance content. It would be one of those kinds of personal things you learn about a person as part of the romance, just as you learn about Cassandra's past, or Dorian's insecurities.

[Dai Grepher]

The game doesn't know whether your character is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. You can't even say that it does based on whomever you flirt with. Just because someone flirted with Cassandra exclusively doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual. Perhaps none of the males in DAI had any interest for them, or he only had eyes for Cassandra, or something.

You are making a lot of assumptions about what other people's characters will do.

Um... no I'm not?

Yeah the game probably doesn't know all that much about the character other than what gets flagged. But the players do know. I'm not claiming Tilani will be programed to recognize bisexual male player characters. Rather that Tilana would be gated to characters who are male, and then the player would have to make that male character bisexual in order to go ahead with the relationship.

For the same reason Dorian did?

Dorian didn't care about family bloodline, nor did her care about the Magisterium. Besides, Dorian was attracted to the male form. A player character who is male and from a powerful Tevinter house would likely have to be attracted to the female form in order to entertain the idea of a relationship with Tilani, but then upon finding out the truth, would then have to be okay with the male form. That's very different from Dorian's case.

We already have the mere existence of Thorold to throw out your point.

Okay, well if there is a rich dwarven merchant origin in DA4 then that one is covered. My point however was about a son from a powerful Tevinter household.

Not only was Thorold a man, but a dwarf and non-mage. It's pretty clear that she is willing to marry for love; she speaks about Thorold like she loved him very much, and that he was a source of emotional stability and support.

At a time when Tilani had no one and not much power or influence.

Also, WoT Vol. 2 states that Alexius married his sweetheart for love and his father was pissed about it. Poor Felix, while still a mage, had the misfortune to have limited magical ability.

Yeah, Alexius' father was pissed merely about the wrong woman. So how pissed would a player character's father be about Tilani?

How is it not the same thing? If a person has no sexual attraction to a character, but chooses to make a PC that does and roleplay them in whatever way, how is that different?

Because the relationship is heterosexual. The other example is not.

You made a female character to romance Sebastian, and a straight guy made a male to romance Dorian. Just because the straight guy is also male, doesn't mean he will see himself as a proxy in a sexual relationship with Dorian -- that's what roleplay is for, which includes gender.

And in my case I witnessed a heterosexual relationship. The other guy watched a homosexual relationship.

Yeah, and there were undoubtedly trans people pleased with it as well. As I said earlier, it's not a hive mind.

I'm sure there were, but which segment of that group made the most noise?

Did you just accuse her of murdering her husband?? I'd say that the entire Fade sequence wipes that out. She is shown to have cared for him very much. We've also seen, both in the games and other ancillary materials, that these sorts of Fade bits reveal a person's deeper feelings, fears, etc, so it was clearly an accurate depiction.

I implied that Tilani may have made certain arrangements for Thorold's "accidental" death. Personally, yeah, I think Tilani killed him for his fortune. I could be wrong. In fact, I probably am wrong. But I don't have to be right all the time.

It was also revealed that Tilani was aware that it was the Fade, and that what was playing out was a pleasant indulgence. So it's possible that Tilani controlled it to be pleasant. Not saying Tilani didn't enjoy Thorold, but maybe his wealth could be enjoyed more.

As to your last point: Dorian. He is really the counter to ANY such arguments. I'll grant you that he's an outlier for the most part, as all the good altus boys and girls will likely do as they're told, just as Dorian's own parents (who "loathed each other") did, but he IS a living example of an altus who defied tradition, and this was even before he met his Inquisitor LI; he did that all on his own.

And if the DA4 protag is anything like him, it will diminish Dorian's character and his achievements. Plus, there is that difference I pointed out above. The protag would need to like the female form, but then also accept Tilani's form upon finding out the truth. That's a whole different set of dynamics to work through that Dorian didn't have to worry about.

[Battlebloodmage]

One thing that would be interesting would be if her trans status is never addressed at all for a non-romance play. I'm not suggesting that it should be hidden or ignored, but that it could be a complete non-issue. Perhaps there are certain hints here and there, leaving the player to wonder whether she is or not. As I mentioned previously, she presents as a woman in the comics, so I don't see why she has to be presented as anything other than that outside of romance content. It would be one of those kinds of personal things you learn about a person as part of the romance, just as you learn about Cassandra's past, or Dorian's insecurities.

She may need a unique body in any case, she wouldn't have boobs, the male model also has a bulge. It's likely gonna be a modified male or female elf body if she stuffed her clothes. Male human would be too muscular, the female human is too curvative. How would she look that would make her ambiguous if not romance? What about her voice? Especially those without hormone treatment from a young age, it's very noticeable. 

 

For it to be ambiguous, you think Mae should have a female's voice actress and use a human female's body? How do you propose for them to go about it?

[Mistic]

There's also the fact that Tilani as a companion character... would be passed over by a lot of gamers. Personally, I would still recruit Tilani. I'm tolerant. I'd never pursue any possible romance there, but I would recruit. I might reload and reject depending on the dialogue, but initially I would recruit. I think a lot of gamers would not recruit however, and BioWare should make companion characters that the players want to recruit. I recruited Dorian, knowing what he was about ahead of time, and I was pleased with his portrayal, though his personal quest was bugged for my canon playthrough. Tilani I'm not as confident about because of Weekes comments on the issue, and making Tilani a companion might be a bridge too far even for Weekes, because he's not even confident in his own writing.

 

I think you underestimate the completionist spirit of gamers    Achievements exist for that very reason. We have many examples in this forum of people who recruit companions, only to never use them afterwards. So I don't think that would be a problem. Her being used? Well, it's not as if we don't have companions with very divisive fanbases already, so I don't think it matters.

 

David Gaider said it once, that they don't create characters to be likeable to everyone, but to cause a reaction. In that case, what you see would be actually a reason for them to include her.

 

But the difference is between functional conflict and dysfunctional conflict. Dorian and Calpernia can have conflict but still function well together. Calpernia and Tilani on the other hand I see as a mix of nitro and glycerin. I see them fighting each other to the death, honestly. I see no cooperation between them.

 

Yes, it's not as if we didn't have Alistair and Morrigan. And Fenris and Anders. And Vivienne and Sera. Truly, a nitroglycerin mix would be most welcome In the end, what really matters is that Bioware finds a reason for them to help the PC.

 

Yeah I know, but scandal wasn't one of my points against the character. Being head of a family with no conceivable (no pun intended) future isn't really a mark in Tilani's favor. If the player character is a mage from a powerful family, then the family won't want their son's genes wasted on Tilani just as the Pavus family didn't want Dorian's genes wasted on any male. And to make a storyline out of that would be like a bad soap opera and would distract from the main storyline.

 

Since she's the head of a family, what she does with her family's future is her problem and her problem alone.

 

Also, you are supposing that there will be a "mage from a powerful family with nagging relatives who have the power to pressure our special snowflake" plot (the latter part is what defies belief in a DA setting; not even the anti-human Dalish dared to tell a Warden or an Inquisitor not to pursue a human romance). And even if it exists, it would only mean it would be a gated romance for them. Other origins wouldn't have that problem.

 

One thing that would be interesting would be if her trans status is never addressed at all for a non-romance play. I'm not suggesting that it should be hidden or ignored, but that it could be a complete non-issue. Perhaps there are certain hints here and there, leaving the player to wonder whether she is or not. As I mentioned previously, she presents as a woman in the comics, so I don't see why she has to be presented as anything other than that outside of romance content. It would be one of those kinds of personal things you learn about a person as part of the romance, just as you learn about Cassandra's past, or Dorian's insecurities.

 

That's a minefield. If they go that route, it should be addressed right at the beginning of the romance, to avoid further complications. Remember that, depending on the game, pursuing a romance can block other romantic options.

[Biotic Apostate]

Tilani is more influential in the Magisterium than Dorian. So that is where Tilani should be. Dorian should be the one traveling with the party, working on the outside. Doing the things Tilani can't do or can't be seen doing. Dorian as a companion and advisor is better because most players are already familiar with him. Dorian is more influential outside the Magisterium.

If familiarity was a solid argument, we would still have Alistair and Morrigan in our party. If he's an advisor, Dorian can actually be more visible than a party member, and Mae can influence how other NPCs react to our party in Tevinter, because of her position.

 

 

Just that females are far more likely to explore those options than males are.

You could have spared us the "of course."

 

 

I have no idea what any of this is.

It doesn't matter if you know what this is. It shows how much work is, in your eyes, wasted. ME has 6 classes, but one is chosen by over 65% of the players. If the same happened with DA, I guess you would campaign to leave only the warrior, since anything else is a waste of resources?

 

 

Quests aren't the issue, and human only was the original plan. But the point is that BioWare shouldn't waste time on something that will only be done by a small minority of players. It just doesn't make economic sense. Especially when the subject matter is a cultural minefield.

It would be economically far better for BW to drop branching stories (since a lot of the choices are unpopular and rarely selected). Maybe the writers want to enter that "cultural minefield," because it's the story they want to tell. And economic sense would dictate making Mario/CoD/GTA clones, not RPGs.

 

 

They can want it all they... uh, want. But if only 3% of the players want it, then it isn't worth the time and money, especially if a larger percentage will be enraged by it.

That's for BW to decide. "They" in my post meant BW. If the writers want to do something, they will do it. 

And BW does not owe those enraged people anything. If they cannot handle the mere presence of a trans person or *gasp* a romance option (that they are not forced to select), then tough luck. DAI sold well "despite" being full of LGBT people, so I don't think BW will care about those people.

 

 

A lot of threads huh? Okay. The point is that BioWare would be closing the character off to all except the male characters who statistically are most likely to reject the character, at least in terms of a deeper relationship. So it's a waste. I'm sure there will be some female players who create a male character, but a lot of female gamers don't like playing as male characters. 

Yeah, I know, people with opposing views to yours, I know how much you roll your eyes at that. There are a lot of players, who make characters with different genders or sexualities to their own. I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend, since you've played a female character yourself. And BW actually said that more people played the same-sex romances in DA2 than they expected. Since they've been doing it for some time, I guess they find it's worth it. Until any official data mined from the saves is presented, the popularity of the romances is anyone's guess.

 

Also, I've noticed you're bending over backwards to avoid using pronouns, when talking about Mae. "Tilani, Tilani, Tilani." Honestly, that's just petty.

[Dai Grepher]

We don't know who would be writing her; I don't know why you assume it's PW. While not necessary (DG wrote Cassandra, and other examples), I would actually like a woman to write her, to be honest.

Because he's the lead writer now, and because his comments on Krem lead me to believe that he will see it as his "duty" to take up "the cause" and personally over see such characters in DA4.

Why do you think people wouldn't recruit her?

Because they disagree with what the character is.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. It probably won't be obvious that she's trans, and many players will be meeting her for the first time, so I don't think that bigotry would be playing a part in that.

Eh... I think it will be noticeable, but maybe not obvious to everyone. Some people were surprised by Krem of all people. I wasn't.

You have to remember that this would have to be presented in an alternate way for the sizeable chunk of players who sided with the mages and have no experience with Calpernia, and neither does Dorian in that playthrough. Dorian doesn't automatically have have conflict with Calpernia because, for many players' Dorians, he might not have ever encountered her.

Dorian spent many months with the Venatori trying to find a way to undermine Alexius. He also points out Calpernia during the assault on Haven. So it's likely that he did know some things about her from his time in the Venatori.

Yes, her potential absence in Inquisition would be a factor, but in that case the same would apply to Tilani as well.

This whole thing is absurd and you have no evidence whatsoever to support your supposition.

Yes, it's just my theory. I don't think it's absurd though.

One thing that would be interesting would be if her trans status is never addressed at all for a non-romance play. I'm not suggesting that it should be hidden or ignored, but that it could be a complete non-issue. Perhaps there are certain hints here and there, leaving the player to wonder whether she is or not. As I mentioned previously, she presents as a woman in the comics, so I don't see why she has to be presented as anything other than that outside of romance content. It would be one of those kinds of personal things you learn about a person as part of the romance, just as you learn about Cassandra's past, or Dorian's insecurities.

If they do make Tilani romanceable, that's probably how they'll do it. But I think it will be noticeable to most.

[nightscrawl]

She may need a unique body in any case, she wouldn't have boobs, the male model also has a bulge. It's likely gonna be a modified male or female elf body if she stuffed her clothes. Male human would be too muscular, the female human is too curvative. How would she look that would make her ambiguous if not romance? What about her voice? Especially those without hormone treatment from a young age, it's very noticeable. 
 
For it to be ambiguous, you think Mae should have a female's voice actress and use a human female's body?

 
The unique body model point is somewhat moot, as that applies to most followers anyway. The body model depends on a number of factors, particularly the types of clothing we see and are allowed to put her in (if a follower). The crotch area could be covered, just as Dorian's butt is covered by a flap of cloth on his default armor. In the comics, the dress she's wearing is not padded, but has a stiff bodice, which is a fashion style; you can't tell whether she has no boobs or is merely flat chested.
 
For the rest of the figure and musculature, I'm really hoping we will get more body customization anyway (though I think it unlikely). I don't like making human male mages because they are too muscular for my own taste; I prefer a leaner build. So if she has a leaner build, I wouldn't think anything of it in terms of presentation.
 
The voice depends on the individual. Some men have naturally higher voices, while some women have naturally husky voices. She may also add affectation to her voice.
 
Using a fully female model and a woman's voice would be trying to hide it. As I said, that is not my intention.
 
 

That's a minefield. If they go that route, it should be addressed right at the beginning of the romance, to avoid further complications. Remember that, depending on the game, pursuing a romance can block other romantic options.

I was thinking out loud, to be honest. I do like the idea that she is a woman and the player is presented with a woman.

It all depends on how it's written and presented to the player. I think many in this thread are making too many assumptions about how she would be written, how her trans status would be addressed, and so on.

[Battlebloodmage]

If familiarity was a solid argument, we would still have Alistair and Morrigan in our party. If he's an advisor, Dorian can actually be more visible than a party member, and Mae can influence how other NPCs react to our party in Tevinter, because of her position.

 

 

You could have spared us the "of course."

 

 

It doesn't matter if you know what this is. It shows how much work is, in your eyes, wasted. ME has 6 classes, but one is chosen by over 65% of the players. If the same happened with DA, I guess you would campaign to leave only the warrior, since anything else is a waste of resources?

 

 

It would be economically far better for BW to drop branching stories (since a lot of the choices are unpopular and rarely selected). Maybe the writers want to enter that "cultural minefield," because it's the story they want to tell. And economic sense would dictate making Mario/CoD/GTA clones, not RPGs.

 

 

That's for BW to decide. "They" in my post mean BW. If the writers want to do something, they will do it. 

And BW does not owe those enraged people anything. If they cannot handle the mere presence of a trans person or *gasp* a romance option (that they are not forced to select), then tough luck. DAI sold well "despite" being full of LGBT people, so I don't think BW will care about those people.

 

 

Yeah, I know, people with opposing views to yours, I know how much you roll your eyes at that. There are a lot of players, who make characters with different genders or sexualities to their own. I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend, since you've played a female character yourself. And BW actually said that more people played the same-sex romances in DA2 than they expected. Since they've been doing it for some time, I guess they find it's worth it. Until any official data mined from the saves is presented, the popularity of the romances is anyone's guess.

 

Also, I've noticed you're bending over backwards to avoid using pronouns, when talking about Mae. "Tilani, Tilani, Tilani." Honestly, that's just petty.

Just curious, what do you mean by not "force" to choose? People are advocating for her to become one of the two options for straight guys, something that would definitely affect their selection. Are any of the people advocating for that option straight guys? It's a bit presumptuous for people to say what options other groups should have and be happy with. I wouldn't mind if she happens to be an extra option, not one of the 2 options for straight guys.

[Mistic]

 
The unique body model point is somewhat moot, as that applies to most followers anyway.

 

True enough. It's not as if we haven't seem very individualized body models in-game (coughIronBullcough), and if they choose the same kind of armor customization as in DA:I (the armor adapts to each character's unique style), there shouldn't be any trouble with it.

 

It all depends on how it's written and presented to the player. I think many in this thread are making too many assumptions about how she would be written, how her trans status would be addressed, and so on.

 

Indeed. We don't even know if she will be a companion or an advisor (for all we know, she may be just a simple NPC like Eamon or Mother Giselle), and we're already guessing what a romance with her would be like.

 

On the bright side, it's evidence that there's interest in the character.

[nightscrawl]

Also, I've noticed you're bending over backwards to avoid using pronouns, when talking about Mae. "Tilani, Tilani, Tilani." Honestly, that's just petty.

 
I don't think that's completely fair, really. I sometimes do that with Krem-related posts, but not with Maevaris-related posts, and it all has to do with how I originally perceived the characters. On first meeting, I originally thought Krem was an Avaline-type woman and thought nothing more about it; he's even wearing a DA2 armor model and is voiced (clearly, to me) by a woman; whereas I originally thought Mae was a woman from her comics presentation. There is also the fact that I didn't expect there to be a trans character in the game (let's just forget about DA2's Serendipity). In my mind, I sometimes have to correct myself in regard to Krem and pronouns, where I don't have to do the same with Mae, so I will occasionally just avoid those problems by not using them at all, as it can be better than accidentally misgendering someone.

 

And you know, English sucks. We really need a gender-neutral pronoun that isn't "them," since that is plural. I really dislike using they/them when I don't know, but I have no choice since there is nothing else. =/

 

Or I could just be being too nice in giving the benefit of the doubt, which I'm told is a trait of mine. Lol...
 
 

Just curious, what do you mean by not "force" to choose? People are advocating for her to become one of the two options for straight guys, something that would definitely affect their selection. Are any of the people advocating for that option straight guys? It's a bit presumptuous for people to say what options other groups should have and be happy with. I wouldn't mind if she happens to be an extra option, not one of the 2 options for straight guys.

 
As far as I've observed, only one person has said anything close to that. Banshee and I got into the most discussion about it, and even then it was more about not wanting to "other" her than anything else, which I can understand and agree with on principle.

[Battlebloodmage]

True enough. It's not as if we haven't seem very individualized body models in-game (coughIronBullcough), and if they choose the same kind of armor customization as in DA:I (the armor adapts to each character's unique style), there shouldn't be any trouble with it.

 

 

Indeed. We don't even know if she will be a companion or an advisor (for all we know, she may be just a simple NPC like Eamon or Mother Giselle), and we're already guessing what a romance with her would be like.

 

On the bright side, it's evidence that there's interest in the character.

Interests from whose? How many people? And where? Forum represents a small portion of the fanbase, and most gamers are not even on here. It's also depending on the types that frequent forum. You would think that there are more people play fem Shep than what the polls on here indicated (like roughly half and half) and based on the comments on fem Shep. It's not a good evaluation. Plus, who are the people interests in Mae? Is her romance gonna be an extra one or part of the straight male's options? I wouldn't mind her as an extra one, but I don't want her as an option for straight male because it's not fair for them, I have seen none of the straight guys here actually wanting her as one of their option. Not wanting to treat her as "other" at the same time would be at the expense of the straight guys. It's not for fair for Mae to be treated as other, but then it wouldn't be fair for the straight guys either. 

[Biotic Apostate]

Just curious, what do you mean by not "force" to choose? People are advocating for her to become one of the two options for straight guys, something that would definitely affect their selection. Are any of the people advocating for that option straight guys? It's a bit presumptuous for people to say what options other groups should have and be happy with. I wouldn't mind if she happens to be an extra option, not one of the 2 options for straight guys.

Well, I haven't even once said Mae should be one of the two options for straight men. Solas, Cullen, Sebastian, Liara, and so on were "additional choices" and there was nothing wrong about it. I'd do it as a third option. So you're asking the wrong person.

[Thibax]

Yes! I hope she is a companion.

I want four mages, so I need four companions of each class.

Maevaris, Dorian, Morrigan and ZITHER!

 

[Dai Grepher]

I think you underestimate the completionist spirit of gamers    Achievements exist for that very reason. We have many examples in this forum of people who recruit companions, only to never use them afterwards.

Okay well, that's the same thing.

Yes, it's not as if we didn't have Alistair and Morrigan. And Fenris and Anders. And Vivienne and Sera. Truly, a nitroglycerin mix would be most welcome In the end, what really matters is that Bioware finds a reason for them to help the PC.

But those were functional conflicts. I see Tilani and Calpernia as Alistair and Loghain. You can only pick one.

Since she's the head of a family, what she does with her family's future is her problem and her problem alone.

Not if the protag is involved in the relationship.

Also, you are supposing that there will be a "mage from a powerful family with nagging relatives who have the power to pressure our special snowflake" plot (the latter part is what defies belief in a DA setting; not even the anti-human Dalish dared to tell a Warden or an Inquisitor not to pursue a human romance). And even if it exists, it would only mean it would be a gated romance for them. Other origins wouldn't have that problem.

Other origins wouldn't have that problem, but as I wrote, they might have the problem of not being wealthy, powerful, or influential enough for Tilani to take an interest in them.

That's a minefield. If they go that route, it should be addressed right at the beginning of the romance, to avoid further complications. Remember that, depending on the game, pursuing a romance can block other romantic options.

I'm sure it would be, if not before. I imagine Dorian pulling you off to the side to sit you down to explain things, and that he doesn't want to see his long time friend get hurt. Dorian might demand that you tell him you're okay with it, or else break off the pursuit right there.