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[Dai Grepher]

If familiarity was a solid argument, we would still have Alistair and Morrigan in our party.

We got Oghren in Awakening, Dog in Witch Hunt, Anders in DA2, and Varric in Inquisition. So yeah, pretty sure that's a solid argument.

If he's an advisor, Dorian can actually be more visible than a party member, and Mae can influence how other NPCs react to our party in Tevinter, because of her position.

Other way around. Dorian can't be visible to hardly anyone because he's just recently become a magister. Tilani is the more influential person within the Magisterium.

It doesn't matter if you know what this is. It shows how much work is, in your eyes, wasted. ME has 6 classes, but one is chosen by over 65% of the players. If the same happened with DA, I guess you would campaign to leave only the warrior, since anything else is a waste of resources?

Well I'm referring to like 3% to maybe 10% tops. What percentage wants the Hero to return, but BioWare is ignoring that because its too much work for them?

It would be economically far better for BW to drop branching stories (since a lot of the choices are unpopular and rarely selected). Maybe the writers want to enter that "cultural minefield," because it's the story they want to tell. And economic sense would dictate making Mario/CoD/GTA clones, not RPGs.

Well, it's like putting resources into a Cole romance. The devs saw Cole as too much like a child and thought the Inquisitor didn't fit because the Inquisitor was an authority figure and seen as being much older. So they didn't have Cole as romanceable. But arguing for a Tilani romance is like arguing for a Cole romance. Make Cole gated to non-qunari females with the British voice actress who are also young in appearance. Yeah right, like BioWare is going to make a romance that is as gated as that one.

That's for BW to decide. "They" in my post mean BW. If the writers want to do something, they will do it.
And BW does not owe those enraged people anything.

Yeah, but they still want their money. Or at least should since they are a much larger segment of the audience.

If they cannot handle the mere presence of a trans person or *gasp* a romance option (that they are not forced to select), then tough luck. DAI sold well "despite" being full of LGBT people, so I don't think BW will care about those people.

Well that's what those people want, the option not to agree with the agenda. The option to skip that content. It's what a lot of the fans want, actually. But Weekes doesn't seem to see it that way.

Yeah, I know, people with opposing views to yours, I know how much you roll your eyes at that.

No, I just don't believe there were that many threads about it, and even so, that isn't representative of the fanbase. But it's irrelevant, because Dorian's case is different.

There are a lot of players, who make characters with different genders or sexualities to their own. I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend, since you've played a female character yourself.

I'm sure there are players who do that, just not enough of them to justify BioWare spending the resources to make such an option available, especially when the option requires careful writing so as not to offend any side.

And BW actually said that more people played the same-sex romances in DA2 than they expected.

So? Same-sex romances aren't the issue.

Also, I've noticed you're bending over backwards to avoid using pronouns, when talking about Mae. "Tilani, Tilani, Tilani." Honestly, that's just petty.

Excuse me, but I find that most people here reference Hawke the same way. Hmph!

[Battlebloodmage]

Well, I haven't even once said Mae should be one of the two options for straight men. Solas, Cullen, Sebastian, Liara, and so on were "additional choices" and there was nothing wrong about it. I'd do it as a third option. So you're asking the wrong person.

That's a general comment to this thread, not directed at you since I saw people who said she shouldn't be treated differently. 

[nightscrawl]

Yes! I hope she is a companion.
I want four mages, so I need four companions of each class.
Maevaris, Dorian, Morrigan and ZITHER!
 

 
If they stick with the same party format (we have for three games, now), we will only have three followers + the PC in the party, so you can scratch one of those.
 
 

Excuse me, but I find that most people here reference Hawke the same way. Hmph!

Hawke can be either gender, so that's not really the same thing. With Hawke, I've noticed a pretty even split among people using the pronoun of their own Hawke (he or she), or trying to be neutral in some way by using them/they or simply Hawke. People do the same with the Warden or the Inquisitor. But again, those characters don't have a fixed gender. Maevaris does; she is a woman.

[Mistic]

And you know, English sucks. We really need a gender-neutral pronoun that isn't "them," since that is plural. I really dislike using they/them when I don't know, but I have no choice since there is nothing else. =/

 

Ha! Try Spanish, where every noun has a gender and there's not an option like "them". I find English rather gender-neutral in comparison

 

Interests from whose? How many people? And where? Forum represents a small portion of the fanbase, and most gamers are not even on here. It's also depending on the types that frequent forum. You would think that there are more people play fem Shep than what the polls on here indicated (like roughly half and half) and based on the comments on fem Shep. It's not a good evaluation.

 

You are right, of course. Still, the interest of a small part of the fanbase is better than no interest at all. Cullen started his path to fame as a minor character from one of the origins who was remembered fondly by some people in the forums.

 

Other origins wouldn't have that problem, but as I wrote, they might have the problem of not being wealthy, powerful, or influential enough for Tilani to take an interest in them.

 

That's a Catch-22 you presented there. If he's an Altus, the relationship can't work because she may be interested but he won't be allowed. If he's not, the relationship can't work because he will be allowed but she won't be interested.

 

However, it's a Catch-22 easy to break. She may be interested regardless the origin, or the Altus origin may enjoy the convenience of every other protagonist so far: to never be forced to break off the relationship from their side.

 

I'm sure it would be, if not before. I imagine Dorian pulling you off to the side to sit you down to explain things, and that he doesn't want to see his long time friend get hurt. Dorian might demand that you tell him you're okay with it, or else break off the pursuit right there.

 

That could work. Reminds me of Leliana's part in the Josephine romance.

[Biotic Apostate]

 
I don't think that's completely fair, really. I sometimes do that with Krem-related posts, but not with Maevaris-related posts, and it all has to do with how I originally perceived the characters. On first meeting, I originally thought Krem was an Avaline-type woman and thought nothing more about it; he's even wearing a DA2 armor model and is voiced (clearly, to me) by a woman; whereas I originally thought Mae was a woman from her comics presentation. There is also the fact that I didn't expect there to be a trans character in the game (let's just forget about DA2's Serendipity). In my mind, I sometimes have to correct myself in regard to Krem and pronouns, where I don't have to do the same with Mae, so I will occasionally just avoid those problems by not using them at all, as it can be better than accidentally misgendering someone.

 

And you know, English sucks. We really need a gender-neutral pronoun that isn't "them," since that is plural. I really dislike using they/them when I don't know, but I have no choice since there is nothing else. =/

 

Or I could just be being too nice in giving the benefit of the doubt, which I'm told is a trait of mine. Lol...

There's a difference between making a mistake, and staunchly refusing to use the preferred pronoun. It's ok, if someone gets confused, but it seems malicious, when someone doesn't even use it even once. We don't need a new word, because most trans people will tell you what pronoun they want you to use, when referring to them. When writers and in-world characters refer to Mae as "she," there is absolutely no reason to search for something different. Refusing to use gender pronouns often is a sign of protest or disrespect, so I'm less lenient about it.

[Battlebloodmage]

Ha! Try Spanish, where every noun has a gender and there's not an option like "them". I find English rather gender-neutral in comparison

 

 

You are right, of course. Still, the interest of a small part of the fanbase is better than no interest at all. Cullen started his path to fame as a minor character from one of the origins who was remembered fondly by some people in the forums.

 

 

That's a Catch-22 you presented there. If he's an Altus, the relationship can't work because she may be interested but he won't be allowed. If he's not, the relationship can't work because he will be allowed but she won't be interested.

 

However, it's a Catch-22 easy to break. She may be interested regardless the origin, or the Altus origin may enjoy the convenience of every other protagonist so far: to never be forced to break off the relationship from their side.

 

 

That could work. Reminds me of Leliana's part in the Josephine romance.

And Cullen wasn't even supposed to be an option, he was only made an option after they have extra time, outside of Cullen and Solas, I don't see any other options they could have added anyway. 

[nightscrawl]

There's a difference between making a mistake, and staunchly refusing to use the preferred pronoun. It's ok, if someone gets confused, but it seems malicious, when someone doesn't even use it even once. We don't need a new word, because most trans people will tell you what pronoun they want you to use, when referring to them. When writers and in-world characters refer to Mae as "she," there is absolutely no reason to search for something different. Refusing to use gender pronouns often is a sign of protest or disrespect, so I'm less lenient about it.

With regard to a gender-neutral pronoun, I wasn't referring to instances where it is known what the person wants, like Mae, but rather instances where you don't know, and also can't ask, or don't feel comfortable in asking. I might refer to another forum poster as "they" if I don't know for sure. In the past, I've made the effort to look at a person's profile to see if that information is on there, but that doesn't always work out. It would feel inappropriate asking some random internet person what their gender is. This is especially the case since many women on the internet prefer to not be known as women for fear of harassment. Other women have told me they play as male characters in MMOs for the same reason. This was an internet habit I started years and years ago and has nothing to do with trans people.
 
 
But back to Mae...
 
At this point, I just really want her to be IN the game so we can interact and do stuff. Anything else is just bonus as far as I'm concerned. AND it would be so cool if there was a sort of Magisterium scene like with the dwarven Assembly in DAO. I'm not saying we (the PC) should participate or anything, but just watching would be fun.
 
 

And Cullen wasn't even supposed to be an option, he was only made an option after they have extra time, outside of Cullen and Solas, I don't see any other options they could have added anyway.

 
In before cries of "Leliana, Morrigan, Vivienne, Varric, and Hawke!"
 
(Just in case... That is not my own opinion.)

[nightscrawl]

I imagine Dorian pulling you off to the side to sit you down to explain things, and that he doesn't want to see his long time friend get hurt. Dorian might demand that you tell him you're okay with it, or else break off the pursuit right there.

Hm, I'm not sure if I like this idea, or not. I'm not even sure whether it's something that Dorian would do, or not. On the one hand, I think he would have concern out of care for Mae if he's observed the PC's attention toward her, because that's how he is. On the other hand, it's not his place to tell someone that, and neither is it his business to get involved in Mae's love life.

 

The only reasonable scenario I can see in that instance is Dorian talking to Mae about it wondering when she was going to tell the PC. Even if she has seen that the PC is interested in her, she may have no interest in him, either because of Thorold or whatever other reason. Also, Mae is an adult, older than Dorian, with more experience with relationships than he has. She certainly has the advantage over Dorian in this case.

 

For myself, I would likely find it highly inappropriate if it played out that way in the game, regardless of Dorian's obvious good intentions.

[Biotic Apostate]

We got Oghren in Awakening, Dog in Witch Hunt, Anders in DA2, and Varric in Inquisition. So yeah, pretty sure that's a solid argument.

But not a solid argument, when arguing against adding new characters. Just like with Cassandra and Varric, they can add an old companion, and a new one, whom the other knows, to make their banter more interesting.

 

Well I'm referring to like 3% to maybe 10% tops. What percentage wants the Hero to return, but BioWare is ignoring that because its too much work for them?

There were companions in ME3 that only 4% of players used. One got even a romance for both genders. They still did it. And why is 10% the magic cut-off line? 

 

Well, it's like putting resources into a Cole romance. The devs saw Cole as too much like a child and thought the Inquisitor didn't fit because the Inquisitor was an authority figure and seen as being much older. So they didn't have Cole as romanceable. But arguing for a Tilani romance is like arguing for a Cole romance. Make Cole gated to non-qunari females with the British voice actress who are also young in appearance. Yeah right, like BioWare is going to make a romance that is as gated as that one.

Mae and Cole are nothing alike. This comparison makes completely no sense. I don't know, what you are even talking about with that qunari example.

 

Yeah, but they still want their money. Or at least should since they are a much larger segment of the audience.

Well that's what those people want, the option not to agree with the agenda. The option to skip that content. It's what a lot of the fans want, actually. But Weekes doesn't seem to see it that way.

Again, DAI sold well, they can select, what kind of audiences they want to attract and not worry about it. Weekes doesn't see it like that, because they have a lot of customers, who either don't care, or welcome the inclusiveness. Even Mortal Kombat had a gay character. Devs are allowed to include any "agenda" they want.

 

No, I just don't believe there were that many threads about it, and even so, that isn't representative of the fanbase. But it's irrelevant, because Dorian's case is different.

You can search for it. Dorian's case isn't different, people played his romance, even though they wouldn't do something like that in real life, and without needing to be attracted to him.

 

I'm sure there are players who do that, just not enough of them to justify BioWare spending the resources to make such an option available, especially when the option requires careful writing so as not to offend any side.

Again, they think it's worth it. They had gay romances in 7 games already, even though some would say there's not enough interest.

 

So? Same-sex romances aren't the issue.

They were not so long ago. There was as much stink around it as the inclusion of trans characters. People will get used to it and find something else to be irrationally opposed to.

 

Excuse me, but I find that most people here reference Hawke the same way. Hmph! 

Hmph all you want, Hawke is a player defined character that can be either male or female. Mae is a defined character that is referred to as a woman by both characters and writers. You are again comparing unrelated situations.

[Thibax]

 
If they stick with the same party format (we have for three games, now), we will only have three followers + the PC in the party, so you can scratch one of those.
 
 

Hawke can be either gender, so that's not really the same thing. With Hawke, I've noticed a pretty even split among people using the pronoun of their own Hawke (he or she), or trying to be neutral in some way by using them/they or simply Hawke. People do the same with the Warden or the Inquisitor. But again, those characters don't have a fixed gender. Maevaris does; she is a woman.

 

 

Let's break the rules together =)

More people with me, please.

Maevaris and Dorian discussing leadership, Morrigan cursing both and ZITHER! singing for everybody.

[Biotic Apostate]

That's a general comment to this thread, not directed at you since I saw people who said she shouldn't be treated differently. 

You asked for my opinion, so I gave it. I think I only saw Banshee propose something like that, and I totally understand her position. But there's no thread-wide push for Mae to be one of the two options. Either way, it's not probable BW would do it like that anyway.

[nightscrawl]

You asked for my opinion, so I gave it. I think I only saw Banshee propose something like that, and I totally understand her position. But there's no thread-wide push for Mae to be one of the two options. Either way, it's not probable BW would do it like that anyway.

 

The only scenario where I can see Bioware doing that would be if they intentionally wanted to give an f-you to the straight male players, especially in light of how SOME of them still seem so entitled when it comes to the romances; some of those Cassandra threads were truly horrible, in addition to the "straight females get more options" posts.

 

I really don't think they would do this, and I don't get why that is a concern at all. thats1evildude was the first person to raise this concern in this thread, and I honestly thought it came out of nowhere.

 

 

(I'm not suggesting thats1evildude is an entitled straight male player; the two thoughts are unrelated.)

[Dai Grepher]

Ha! Try Spanish, where every noun has a gender and there's not an option like "them". I find English rather gender-neutral in comparison

Japanese too.

That's a Catch-22 you presented there. If he's an Altus, the relationship can't work because she may be interested but he won't be allowed. If he's not, the relationship can't work because he will be allowed but she won't be interested.

Not saying they can't work, just that it requires a specific set of circumstances. Too specific to fit an RPG.

However, it's a Catch-22 easy to break. She may be interested regardless the origin, or the Altus origin may enjoy the convenience of every other protagonist so far: to never be forced to break off the relationship from their side.

Yes, BioWare could hand-wave it all. I'm just pointing out logical obstacles BioWare would have to account for, or else hand-wave.

That could work. Reminds me of Leliana's part in the Josephine romance.

Yeah... and it would of course lead into the "I have something I need to tell you" followed by "I already know and I'm fine with it" cliche. Bleh. But yeah, that's probably how Weekes would do it, if BioWare decides to do it at all.

There's a difference between making a mistake, and staunchly refusing to use the preferred pronoun. It's ok, if someone gets confused, but it seems malicious, when someone doesn't even use it even once.

Ha ha ha. That's funny. Neutrality now counts as malice. :laugh:

We don't need a new word, because most trans people will tell you what pronoun they want you to use, when referring to them. When writers and in-world characters refer to Mae as "she," there is absolutely no reason to search for something different. Refusing to use gender pronouns often is a sign of protest or disrespect, so I'm less lenient about it.

Well I think I'll keep using the character's family name. To avoid any confusion.

[Biotic Apostate]

With regard to a gender-neutral pronoun, I wasn't referring to instances where it is known what the person wants, like Mae, but rather instances where you don't know, and also can't ask, or don't feel comfortable in asking. I might refer to another forum poster as "they" if I don't know for sure. In the past, I've made the effort to look at a person's profile to see if that information is on there, but that doesn't always work out. It would feel inappropriate asking some random internet person what their gender is. This is especially the case since many women on the internet prefer to not be known as women for fear of harassment. Other women have told me they play as male characters in MMOs for the same reason. This was an internet habit I started years and years ago and has nothing to do with trans people.

I understood that, I often use "them," when referring to someone I don't know the gender of. When I was just starting to learn English, this was presented as an ultra super correct and fancy way to avoid saying he or she all of the time. But Dai Grepher knows, who Mae is, but is avoiding pronouns on purpose.

 

 

The only scenario where I can see Bioware doing that would be if they intentionally wanted to give an f-you to the straight male players, especially in light of how SOME of them still seem so entitled when it comes to the romances; some of those Cassandra threads were truly horrible, in addition to the "straight females get more options" posts.

 

I really don't think they would do this, and I don't get why that is a concern at all. thats1evildude was the first person to raise this concern in this thread, and I honestly thought it came out of nowhere.

 

(I'm not suggesting thats1evildude is an entitled straight male player; the two thoughts are unrelated.)

Eh I wouldn't blame them. I've read here that BW is secretly turning straight men gay by making Cassandra so "manly." But it's not Bioware's MO to act out of spite, so I think thats1evildude and anyone else, who is concerned about that happening can relax.

[Biotic Apostate]

Well I think I'll keep using the character's family name. To avoid any confusion.

You're apparently the only one confused here, but you do you. Going against what the writers are saying seems to be your favourite pastime.

[Dai Grepher]

Hm, I'm not sure if I like this idea, or not. I'm not even sure whether it's something that Dorian would do, or not. On the one hand, I think he would have concern out of care for Mae if he's observed the PC's attention toward her, because that's how he is. On the other hand, it's not his place to tell someone that, and neither is it his business to get involved in Mae's love life.
 
The only reasonable scenario I can see in that instance is Dorian talking to Mae about it wondering when she was going to tell the PC. Even if she has seen that the PC is interested in her, she may have no interest in him, either because of Thorold or whatever other reason.

Also, Mae is an adult, older than Dorian, with more experience with relationships than he has. She certainly has the advantage over Dorian in this case.

For myself, I would likely find it highly inappropriate if it played out that way in the game, regardless of Dorian's obvious good intentions.

Understood. But I think this goes to show you that writing an approach to this scenario is difficult, as you're unlikely to please most.

Eh... not so sure about that one. Thorold was the only one, right? And in that case Tilani was... what, promised to Thorold? I thought I remembered reading that somewhere. Other than that, Tilani has only flirted with men who are not of Tevinter, such as Alistair and Cullen possibly. Which makes sense regarding my argument about seeking those outside the influence of Tevinter politics, for fear of assassins and such.

You and many others I'm sure. It's a difficult storyline to make. BioWare would be better off avoiding it.
 

But not a solid argument, when arguing against adding new characters. Just like with Cassandra and Varric, they can add an old companion, and a new one, whom the other knows, to make their banter more interesting.

Which is why I suggested Calpernia. The point is that if Dorian returns, which he likely will to provide a link to the (ex)Inquisitor, whom he may be in a deeper relationship with, then it wouldn't make sense to have Tilani in the group as well. Better to have Tilani in the Magisterium, working in favor of Dorian and his group from above. Besides, someone still has to look after the Lucerni while Dorian is off playing.
 

There were companions in ME3 that only 4% of players used. One got even a romance for both genders. They still did it. And why is 10% the magic cut-off line?

Just an estimate. And that's fine if they did it, but looking back, would they have preferred to use those resources elsewhere, like on a well-written ending for example?
 

Mae and Cole are nothing alike. This comparison makes completely no sense. I don't know, what you are even talking about with that qunari example.

The example was to make a point about gated romances. To make Cole romanceable they would have to gate him to a specific type of Inquisitor to the point where the storyline isn't even worth devoting resources to.
 

Again, DAI sold well, they can select, what kind of audiences they want to attract and not worry about it.

It sold well because it had broad appeal. Cutting a large segment of the fanbase out is never a good idea.
 

Weekes doesn't see it like that, because they have a lot of customers, who either don't care, or welcome the inclusiveness. Even Mortal Kombat had a gay character. Devs are allowed to include any "agenda" they want.

It isn't about what kind of character Weekes puts in, it's about how the player is allowed to respond. That's what many players, including myself, had a problem with when Weekes made his comments on dialogue choices.
 

You can search for it. Dorian's case isn't different, people played his romance, even though they wouldn't do something like that in real life, and without needing to be attracted to him.

Yeah, sure, okay. But how many? Did it justify spending resources on it?
 

Again, they think it's worth it. They had gay romances in 7 games already, even though some would say there's not enough interest.

But we're not talking about homosexual romances here. We're talking about one that has an extra layer of complication added to it.
 

They were not so long ago. There was as much stink around it as the inclusion of trans characters. People will get used to it and find something else to be irrationally opposed to.

It isn't about inclusion of such characters, it's about the presentation of their storylines as romances, how worthwhile it is to spend resources on them, and also how players are allowed to respond to such characters.
 

Hmph all you want, Hawke is a player defined character that can be either male or female. Mae is a defined character that is referred to as a woman by both characters and writers. You are again comparing unrelated situations.

So what? If I can refer to Hawke that way, why not Tilani?

[Steelcan]

I'm already annoyed that she's going to appear almost certainly, but having her as such a close character to be dealing would be irritating, I do not care for her character at all.

 

Also if she's one the straight male romances, I will be most displeased.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm already annoyed that she's going to appear almost certainly, but having her as such a close character to be dealing would be irritating, I do not care for her character at all.
 
Also if she's one the straight male romances, I will be most displeased.

I'm egregiously offended by this.

[Biotic Apostate]

Just an estimate. And that's fine if they did it, but looking back, would they have preferred to use those resources elsewhere, like on a well-written ending for example?

Yes, the money would have went to writing the ending. Definitely not towards writing another companion. But nice non sequitur.

 

The examples was to make a point about gated romances. To make Cole romanceable they would have to gate him to a specific type of Inquisitor to the point where the storyline isn't even worth devoting resources to.

They did 8 romances, they can do 7 in DA4 including Mae. Your Cole example is meaningless. Solas was also gated, yet they did it. Mae doesn't need to be gated anyway, other than to a male protagonist that is.

 

It sold well because it had broad appeal. Cutting a large segment of the fanbase out is never a good idea.

Sooo... they can do any romance or include any character they want, since the game has such a broad appeal, and people won't mind.

 

It isn't about what kind of character Weekes puts in, it's about how the player is allowed to respond. That's what many players, including myself, had a problem with when Weekes made his comments on dialogue choices.

Nope, I'm not having this discussion again. That lame "but I accept them" argument still makes me cringe.

 

Yeah, sure, okay. But how many? Did it justify spending resources on it?

7 games with same-sex romances, 5 with gay ones. BW seems to think it's justified.

 

But we're not talking about homosexual romances here. We're talking about one that has an extra layer of complication added to it.

It isn't about inclusion of such characters, it's about the presentation of their storylines as romances, how worthwhile it is to spend resources on them, and also how players are allowed to respond to such characters.

Again, gay romances were super taboo here not so long ago. People were furious about Zevran, Anders, Steve, and Kaidan. That leaked gay kiss scene from ME3 generated a rant thread every hour. It was way different with Dorian, the same will happen with trans characters. BW thinks including LGBT characters is worthwhile. You obviously think it's not, but they don't agree.

 

So what? If I can refer to Hawke that way, why not Tilani? 

Hawke - undefined character, has one of two genders, can refer to as he, she, or them (as a replacement for "he or she"). Mae - one gender, can refer to her as "she." I don't know, why it's so hard for you to grasp. 

 

[BansheeOwnage]

It makes me sad that there can never be a thread involving a trans character and have it stay positive. Like, ever. I wonder how many times the "Maevaris Appreciation Thread!" will get locked if she appears in DA4.

 

Hawke can be either gender, so that's not really the same thing. With Hawke, I've noticed a pretty even split among people using the pronoun of their own Hawke (he or she), or trying to be neutral in some way by using them/they or simply Hawke. People do the same with the Warden or the Inquisitor. But again, those characters don't have a fixed gender. Maevaris does; she is a woman.

Yeah, exactly. I tend to use neutral pronouns for the PCs, though I'll use the appropriate ones when discussing mine or someone else's specific PC, and I'll also use the appropriate pronouns for an iteration of them who can only be one gender, like someone romancing Dorian, or someone romancing Cullen.

 

As for people on the forums and such, I'll be neutral unless I've seen them refer to themselves as something.

 

Ha! Try Spanish, where every noun has a gender and there's not an option like "them". I find English rather gender-neutral in comparison

Mmh, French too. Hate French grammar

 

Well I think I'll keep using the character's family name. To avoid any confusion.

Confusion... with yourself, I guess? No one else seems confused, and I don't see how using her first name or pronouns would be confusing to anyone Why don't you call Dorian "Pavus", etc.? This makes no sense to me, and is inconsistent.

 

You're apparently the only one confused here, but you do you. Going against what the writers are saying seems to be your favourite pastime.

*Thinks of this thread*

 

Oh snap!

[Biotic Apostate]

*Thinks of this thread*

 

Oh snap!

[nightscrawl]

It makes me sad that there can never be a thread involving a trans character and have it stay positive. Like, ever. I wonder how many times the "Maevaris Appreciation Thread!" will get locked if she appears in DA4.

Eh, perhaps in the beginning, and especially if she is a romance option, but I think it would eventually settle down to the state we have with the current threads. We have people who hate Solas but purposefully do not go into his character thread to start problems.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. In fact, I think it can do more harm to continually expect very negative reactions and lead to never attempting anything that might draw such ire. We wouldn't have any of our favorite characters or romances if that were the case, ya know?

[Dai Grepher]

They did 8 romances, they can do 7 in DA4 including Mae. Your Cole example is meaningless. Solas was also gated, yet they did it. Mae doesn't need to be gated anyway, other than to a male protagonist that is.

Ah well see, there you go. And as I discussed with others here, additional gating may be required depending on storyline.

As for Solas, his romance tied into the storyline heavily. So that made writing it worthwhile.
 

Sooo... they can do any romance or include any character they want, since the game has such a broad appeal, and people won't mind.

Never claimed they couldn't. Just that logically a romance option should be worthwhile and appeal to as many as possible. Having one that is too gated defeats the purpose of having it. Like if they had made Cassandra only be romanceable by a male human mage with greying hair. It would have applied to my Inquisitor just fine, but not that many other people's Inquisitors.
 

Nope, I'm not having this discussion again. That lame "but I accept them" argument still makes me cringe.

Well good, I wasn't suggesting you have that discussion again. Just pointing out what the issue was.
 

7 games with same-sex romances, 5 with gay ones. BW seems to think it's justified.

Right, but those include all the players who would choose those options normally. In this case we're talking about the much smaller minority that would choose it normally, as well as those who would choose it just to see what it was like.

In other words, homosexual and bisexual males and females will choose their preferred homosexual or bisexual romances in games. And there are some heterosexuals who will make a character specifically to see what those homosexual or bisexual romances are like. So yeah, BioWare sees that as a worthwhile endeavor. However, with Tilani, the targeted player character would be a bisexual male, and with some other possible gating. So how many players will explore this exactly? Probably a far lesser number. So the question is if that number is high enough for BioWare to spend resources on it.
 

Again, gay romances were super taboo here not so long ago. People were furious about Zevran, Anders, Steve, and Kaidan. That leaked gay kiss scene from ME3 generated a rant thread every hour. It was way different with Dorian, the same will happen with trans characters. BW thinks including LGBT characters is worthwhile. You obviously think it's not, but they don't agree.

I never wrote that it wasn't worthwhile to include LGBT characters. I never even wrote that in regards to Tilani. My point was about making the character romanceable and the various obstacles BioWare would face in terms of storyline and practicality.
 

Hawke - undefined character, has one of two genders, can refer to as he, she, or them (as a replacement for "he or she"). Mae - one gender, can refer to her as "she." I don't know, why it's so hard for you to grasp.

Yeah... so if it's okay to refer to Hawke by family name, why not is it somehow not okay for Tilani as well?
 

It makes me sad that there can never be a thread involving a trans character and have it stay positive.

Perhaps you have an unrealistic view of "positive". I see nothing wrong with this thread.
 

No one else seems confused,

Right, because I'm being exact in referring to the character.
 

Why don't you call Dorian Pavus, etc.? This makes no sense to me, and is inconsistent.

Weeeeell I wouldn't want anyone to confuse Dorian with Halward. You know how much Dorian hates that.

[nightscrawl]

Right, but those include all the players who would choose those options normally. In this case we're talking about the much smaller minority that would choose it normally, as well as those who would choose it just to see what it was like.

In other words, homosexual and bisexual males and females will choose their preferred homosexual or bisexual romances in games. And there are some heterosexuals who will make a character specifically to see what those homosexual or bisexual romances are like. So yeah, BioWare sees that as a worthwhile endeavor. However, with Tilani, the targeted player character would be a bisexual male, and with some other possible gating. So how many players will explore this exactly? Probably a far lesser number. So the question is if that number is high enough for BioWare to spend resources on it.

It's called roleplay.

I am a straight woman and have no interest whatsoever in being romantic or engaging in sexy times with other women. If Cassandra had been available to the female PC I would have definitely played that out because I like Cassandra that much, but that's not an option for me. Cassandra is in fact the only female follower across all three games that I am disappointed is not a bi or lesbian option; she's really great. If I play a guy, I'm romancing Dorian because that is how I want to use those 150 hours of gameplay as a male character. None of the options for females, gay, straight, or bi, are of any interest to me.

 

In the case of Cassandra, I would be romancing the character, not her lady bits. When I made a guy for Dorian, it was because I really enjoyed his character and personality -- I especially wanted to give him a HUG after his personal quest -- and wanted to see how the romance played out. I don't play my male Inquisitor as a proxy for myself. I am not a gay man and I know Dorian would have no interest in me or my lady bits.

 

 

I think you are doing a disservice to straight men, and whoever else, in assuming that they will only see Mae's genitals as a barrier, or that they can't possibly RP a character who doesn't care. Also, this doesn't necessarily fall on the bisexuality scale. There ARE straight men who want to have sex with a penis-having woman. There are also straight men who like to be pegged by women -- luckily for them, a non-op transwoman like Mae can do it herself and doesn't need artificial assistance (assuming she would be into that as well, who knows). Heterosexuals come in all flavors too, and heterosexual men and women like all sorts of kinds of sex and people to have sex with.

 

You also keep ignoring the fact presented to you that there were straight men who liked Dorian and played out the romance with him. Despite not being sexually attracted to him, they managed to make a character that was and roleplayed that way. Your reply to Biotic -- "Yeah, sure, okay. But how many? Did it justify spending resources on it?" -- makes no sense. The devs didn't have to spend resources on anything. Dorian is a gay romance and some straight men decided, on their own, to make a male character and romance him, just as some straight men will do the same with Maevaris if she is a romance. Who knows what roleplay these men will have for their character? You, or I, or anyone else can't know what RP reason these people will have for making a male character that romances Mae.

 

For all we know, she will be gated to dwarven men, and straight men who normally play elves will make a bear-ish dwarf just to romance her because they think she's the bee's knees.

 

 

[edit]

Homosexuals RP against type too. You think there were no gay men who romanced Cassandra because they like her, or just to see what that romance is like, OR because they didn't like either of the male options available to them? AND I'll bet that there were also straight men who played a guy for the Iron Bull romance, for whatever reason -- perhaps a male qunari so the physical difference isn't so great (this would be my own personal reason for that choice).

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 mai 2016 - 02:39 .

[thats1evildude]

I totally do need to find the LI attractive in order to roleplaying romancing them. Cassandra's looks really were an impediment to me romancing her. I would be unhappy if Maevaris was an LI, as that would leave me only one option. Especially in a fantasy setting like this, when the surgery or hormone treatments aren't an option.

I don't have a problem with Mae being a party member. I don't object to her inclusion in the setting, and I wouldn't chide her for sexuality. I don't view her as less of a person because she was born a man. But, romance-wise, it is still a deal-breaker.