1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

It's especially not hard to believe that Solas could have created the Veil when it's suggested that Mythal killed a frickin' Titan by herself.

 

Perhaps. But I see no reason to lie and say "untorn" Veil instead of simply conveying that the Veil was never torn. Nothing in the message implicates Solas in anything.

 

Hardly concrete, especially following the translation as "untorn Veils" is followed by the notation that it's "(uncertain)".

 

But for what purpose? The Oasis message says nothing incriminating except about the one who was bound there. The Skyhold message implies the existence of a Veil with tears in it, compared to an untorn Veil. So if this was a lie, why would Solas make that up? Why would he want us to believe the Veil once had tears in it?

I think it's more likely that the ancient elf wrote what he or she perceived and Solas simply didn't understand what the elf meant by it. Or maybe he came to a different conclusion, like "untorn veil" means that the Veil can't be torn despite the best efforts of the ancient elves at trying to do so.

 

Because if the Solasan temple belonged to Fen'Harel, then Solas would have reason to obfuscate whom the text might have referred to. If he's not in your party, the partial translation is based on our historical knowledge of ancient elven lore... historical knowledge which probably has more holes in it than a rowing boat made out of swiss cheese.

 

But no one knows Solas is responsible for it. So he has no motive to lie. Besides, he had someone else translating as well. Could he risk appearing untruthful to that person who might double-check his translation?

 

But why tip his hand that he knows more than he's letting on, especially since people were already questioning how he knew of Skyhold's location and his seeming fluency in the language that by this point had devolved into a fragmentary pidgin?

 

The other translator would have no reason to suspect that Solas might have given an incorrect translation of the text, as no-one is supposed to know the language correctly. As Elvish involves a lot of wordplay and is a game of intents, it's not hard to twist the meaning of a sentence if the words have multiple meanings depending on how you view them.

 

BioWare claims they will neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Maker. Having Solas create the Veil effectively denies the Maker's existence.

 

Actually, all that does is show that the Chant of Light was incorrect in attributing the Veil to the Maker. It's like how the accepted history prior to Jaws of Hakkon was that Inquisitor Ameridan was most likely an Andrastian human noble... when in reality, he was a polytheistic Elven mage.

 

Sometimes people get the facts wrong. Especially when they write things years, decades, centuries or even millennia after the fact.

[Gervaise]

I think the Night Elves were a convenient plot device in the Stolen Throne that the writers then chose to forget about in the main game.   Really you'd think there would have been a faction of vigilante elves creating havoc in Ferelden after they were so betrayed by the leaders they helped to bring to power.   Not only were Ferelden laws still prejudiced against elves; it is an offence for an elf or anyone else to kill someone in their defence, but Maric and Loghain had a debt of honour to improve things for the city elves and completely ignored it.   

 

I presume the law about defending elves is the reason Duncan just stood by and let Vaughan do what he did in the city elf origin and didn't lift a finger to prevent it.    It had nothing to do with Grey Wardens being non-political because actually what Vaughan was doing was an offence against common decency and in fact the teachings of Andraste in the Chant of Light, but if taking action was in fact against the law of the land, then interfering would have been a political act, something he was specifically not to do.

 

Then we have Loghain justifying selling the elves into slavery because the life in the alienage is so bad they will be better off as slaves in Tevinter.    I was incensed enough at this before I learnt about the Night Elves and what Maric and Loghain owed them for their assistance in Stolen Throne.   In my city elf play through (my first run was as a Dalish) I role played that my female Tabris was aware of the history of the Night Elves and that her mother had probably been one of them.   Hence the martial skills she endowed on her daughter.     When Anora started boasting how she had really been ruling the kingdom instead of Cailen, she was able to think "So you are responsible for the state of the alienage and the laws that allow people like Vaughan to operate without any come back whatsoever?   Right, in that case you can sink along with your treacherous and ungrateful father." 

 

Raven Tabris was a pretty unforgiving city elf.     She forced Alistair to do the Dark Ritual, hooked up with Zevran and the two of them are off together looking for that cure.   If she comes back and finds things have deteriorated for the city elves in her absence, she will not be best pleased.   She won't be happy how the Grey Wardens messed up, considering what a good job she did up north in Vigil's Keep.   I don't think she is going to like the way Solas is deceiving the city elves either and would welcome being able to deliver her thoughts on the matter via her knife "Fen'Harel's tooth".

[The Ascendant]

For me the story of the Night Elves serves as a stark reminder of the lot of Elves in Thedas. Help Andraste? Save the world from the Blight? Fight for the liberation of your country? Doesn't matter, your still an Elf and no matter what you do, humans will never really accept or appreciate you. You get the occasional decent sort, but almost everything is going against them. It sucks to be an Elf in Thedas, so I can hardly blame them for hating humans, joining the Qun or even Fen'Harel.

[Lulupab]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ancient Elves allowed Humans to live in peace. Even the Evanuris left them alone, provided Human didn't meddle in their territories.

[The Ascendant]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ancient Elves allowed Humans to live in peace. Even the Evanuris left them alone, provided Human didn't meddle in their territories.

Really? I couldn't find any records or evidence suggesting that humans were around during the rule of the Evanuris. Huh.

[Lulupab]

Really? I couldn't find any records or evidence suggesting that humans were around during the rule of the Evanuris. Huh.

 

As far as I know they existed but there was too few of them and they did not have a nation.

[Gervaise]

The evidence that the humans were around during the time of the Evanuris is sketchy, because that whole era is so far back that we can't be sure how much is actual history.   Human folklore states they arrived in the northern islands (Par Vollen?) around -3100 Ancient.   This was the Neromenians, who were known as seafarers.   The question is, where did they come from?    How much further back did they come into being?    If they were around for far longer elsewhere, were the two races of humans and elves aware of each others existence?   

 

After the Neromenians arrived, it was some 250 years before the elves felt the Quickening.    That would suggest that Solas didn't raise the Veil until after the arrival of the humans, so they were around during the time of the Evanuris.    Further evidence to back this up can be found in Ferelden, where the ancient ruins had evidence of humans and elves living together and venerating the Creators.     Even if the elves clung to belief in the Creators after they disappeared, it seems unlikely that humans would have done the same if they never knew them in the first place.

 

To complicate matters there are the legends associated with the Alamarri have them crossing the Frostbacks and settling the area that is now Ferelden in -2415 (just over 400 years after the Quickening) moving there to escape the "shadow goddess".   Scholars suggest they were escaping a natural disaster but Solas confirms it was indeed a spirit (god) that they were trying to escape.     So they were clearly living somewhere on the other side of the Frostbacks before leaving.    How long had they been there?   Did they originate from the original Neromenian settlers or somewhere else entirely?   It seems unlikely the Alamarri were the ones co-existing with elves as there is no mention of them in their legends, apart from the Lady of the Skies, who was the "leafed eared lover" of Tyrdda Brightaxe but that wasn't until the era when her tribe broke away to form the Avaar (-1815).

 

Finally, there is the codex about Andruil growing tired of hunting mortals.    The elves did not regard themselves as mortals, which suggests she must have been hunting either dwarves or humans.    It was at this point she started hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void and likely when things started going wrong for the Evanuris, so it would be near the end of their reign but nevertheless it would indicate humans were around during her time.  If this was a reference to humans, then they certainly weren't living peacefully with the elves but it was the Evanuris, or Andruil at least, who were the aggressors.

[Hellion Rex]

Really? I couldn't find any records or evidence suggesting that humans were around during the rule of the Evanuris. Huh.

There were some. Pretty sure it was mostly humans around the Tevinter area. There were some small skirmishes if IIRC, but they were definitely there in the latter bits of the empire.

[Hellion Rex]

The evidence that the humans were around during the time of the Evanuris is sketchy, because that whole era is so far back that we can't be sure how much is actual history. Human folklore states they arrived in the northern islands (Par Vollen?) around -3100 Ancient. This was the Neromenians, who were known as seafarers. The question is, where did they come from? How much further back did they come into being? If they were around for far longer elsewhere, were the two races of humans and elves aware of each others existence?

After the Neromenians arrived, it was some 250 years before the elves felt the Quickening. That would suggest that Solas didn't raise the Veil until after the arrival of the humans, so they were around during the time of the Evanuris. Further evidence to back this up can be found in Ferelden, where the ancient ruins had evidence of humans and elves living together and venerating the Creators. Even if the elves clung to belief in the Creators after they disappeared, it seems unlikely that humans would have done the same if they never knew them in the first place.

To complicate matters there are the legends associated with the Alamarri have them crossing the Frostbacks and settling the area that is now Ferelden in -2415 (just over 400 years after the Quickening) moving there to escape the "shadow goddess". Scholars suggest they were escaping a natural disaster but Solas confirms it was indeed a spirit (god) that they were trying to escape. So they were clearly living somewhere on the other side of the Frostbacks before leaving. How long had they been there? Did they originate from the original Neromenian settlers or somewhere else entirely? It seems unlikely the Alamarri were the ones co-existing with elves as there is no mention of them in their legends, apart from the Lady of the Skies, who was the "leafed eared lover" of Tyrdda Brightaxe but that wasn't until the era when her tribe broke away to form the Avaar (-1815).

Finally, there is the codex about Andruil growing tired of hunting mortals. The elves did not regard themselves as mortals, which suggests she must have been hunting either dwarves or humans. It was at this point she started hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void and likely when things started going wrong for the Evanuris, so it would be near the end of their reign but nevertheless it would indicate humans were around during her time. If this was a reference to humans, then they certainly weren't living peacefully with the elves but it was the Evanuris, or Andruil at least, who were the aggressors.

Hold up, I need a source for what you claim Solas said about the Alamarri trying to escape a spirit.

[Reznore57]

Hold up, I need a source for what you claim Solas said about the Alamarri trying to escape a spirit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=M_96m2aajY4

 

Solas says the Shadow Goddess legend , the thing that drove the Alamarri from their lands to Ferelden was just a spirit.

Although I'll point out he says "beast" and that she drove "her prey" away.

So I guess Chantry folks would call that a demon and not a spirit.

 

Edit : as for the Alamarri being in touch with the ancient elves , I'd say they were in touch with ancient elves who survived the fall of Elvanhan.

The root of loving dogs in Ferelden are deep , and it wasn't dogs they were "worshipping " at first , it was the wolves

                                                                                                                      

Alamarri folklore states that the wolf was a companion to mankind, created by the gods as guide and protector against the darker forces in the unknown world. Wolves were bred by the tribes and paired with their warriors, and the death of an honored wolf was treated with as much respect and significance as the death of one of their own.

 

So, too, is the werewolf mythos tied to these beliefs. Varying legends tell of a wolf that betrayed his human masters to evil gods in exchange for a human shape. The resulting man-wolf attempted to live among mankind but discovered he was still a beast at heart and ended up being exiled to the forest. Welcome in neither world, he carried a hatred for the true men and true wolves.

(from DAO game guide)

                                                                                                                    

 

The first thing familliar is a warrior and a wolf paired together.The same thing was done by the Emerald Knights in the Dales.http://dragonage.wik...ight's_Guardian

 

Spoiler

 

Traveling through the Emerald Graves in the Dales, one will see dozens of carven stone wolves. The Dalish call these the Knights’ Guardians. In the days of elven Halamshiral, wolf companions walked alongside Emerald Knights, never leaving the side of their chosen knight. Wolf and elf would fight together, eat together, and when the knights slept, wolves would guard them. The statues were erected in memory of their unbreakable bond.

—An excerpt from In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar by Brother Genitivi

 

 

                                  

 

Then there's the legend of a wolf who betrayed his master to gain a human shape.Then he tried to live among humans but it didn't work out so well , and legends says he hated true man and true wolves.

Change the wolf thing with spirit and think about the hints about Solas'origin being a spirit who took shape .

 

You can see part of this tale in Dane and the werewolf , loosely but it's still there:http://dragonage.wik...nd_the_Werewolf

The tale ends badly but there's no context given , things went wrong.

 

"But some things cannot be repent,
Some coinage cannot be unspent,
When hearts are wagered, a fissure rent."

 

In World of Thedas 2 , it is said that Flemeth appears in some version of the Dane and the werewolf tales but there's no example of those versions.Just she's there somehow.

 

                                                                                                   

 

On top of having a thing for wolves a long time ago , you have the love of freedom Ferelden is known for.Ferelden loathe slavery.

And in the Brecillian forest there's some ruins with hints humans , elves and dwarves had relationship in the past.Humans and elves living together and dwarves doing business with them.

Those people were murdered by something unknown.

 

Anyway I'd say in Ferelden , followers of the Dread Wolf survived for a while and they got in touch with humans.I also imagine those didn't get along with the elves who were still fond of the Evanuris.

Even after the veil went up , the ancient elves kept on killing each others , proof is the Dirthamen temple in the Dales.

[Dai Grepher]

Solas is not "one elf". He obliterated a full battalion of Qunari forces with a thought, and he was still getting more powerful with time. After events of Inquisition he is the most powerful being in Thedas, at least until someone more powerful is revealed.

That's a stretch. He petrified roughly a dozen Qunari at the end of Trespasser (and three near the beginning of it), and the positioning of the Qunari indicates that he petrified them one after another, not all at once. All he did was use a strong version of Petrify with rapid cooldown. That makes him a powerful mage, not someone who can create a magical vibration that runs through two dimensions and separates them without deteriorating.

However there is more evidence that veil was created at some point and less evidence that it was all gaps and veil always existed. But all of it is vague anyway so its only slightly favored towards the "veil was created" theory. So your theory as valid enough as far as theories go.

I never wrote that it always existed. I believe it was created too, but I don't think Solas is the one who created it. He merely discovered it and how to manipulate it.

@Dai Grepher, it's not that difficult to believe that one elf managed it. For one, we have the Orb, which we saw damn near bring down the Veil, so is it really that much of a stretch to believe that it could help create it?

Yes. The orb exploded, which was not intentional, but all it did was create a large hole. It also repaired the hole. The mark opens and closes the Veil. That indicates the magic manipulates the Veil. It doesn't create it. Dagna compares it to a key. A key can open or close, it can lock or unlock.

On top of that, Solas had to have been damn near Evanuris level of mage prior to his slumber. We have seen Mythal's magic, stuff that goes beyond any of the parlor tricks of modern magic. And that's when she's barely a shadow of her former self, millennia later.

Such as?

The best I've seen her do is shapeshift into a dragon, and now Morrigan can do that. Theoretically, any mage with the Shapeshifter spec could do it if they learned how.

Other than that, Mythal has a compulsion over whoever drinks from her well, but that is similar to bloodmagic.

And she also used Mythal's magic to create a fragment of herself for her soul to go to should the Hero slay her body in the Wilds. Corypheus did the same thing using the taint.

Anyway, on Solas, we don't know what his power level was back then. His edge could have been deception and clever planning, not direct attack. Like when he plays mind chess with Iron Bull. If you've ever mapped out the moves they make or watch the YouTube video on it, Iron Bull takes a direct and forceful approach. Solas takes a crafty and subtle approach, even sacrificing his queen as a distraction (which is extra ironic if your Inquisitor is a female Levellan who romanced him). But yeah, he used agents and spies even back then I'm sure. Maybe he even used his vallaslin removal trick and then placed fake vallaslin on the newly freed slaves to use as infiltrators. And even in his final act against them, he merely cut off their magic. He didn't actually defeat them. As Cole says, the wolf chews off its leg to escape the trap.

Also, having Solas make the Veil does absolutely nothing to disprove the Maker at all. Just because one thing got mixed up doesn't mean the rest couldn't be true.

It might not disprove the existence of a supreme being or creator of everything, but it does prove the Maker is not that being. The Maker is defined by the Chant. If the Chant is wrong, then the Maker's description is wrong.

[Dai Grepher]

It's especially not hard to believe that Solas could have created the Veil when it's suggested that Mythal killed a frickin' Titan by herself.

Which is contradicted by the painting those praises are written on. There are two elves depicted. One could be Solas, and the other one seems to have long blond hair. We also don't know how they did it. Theoretically, it could have been rather easy since getting inside a titan is pretty simple. Once inside all you have to watch out for are guardians. The Sha-Brytol probably didn't exist yet. It's also possible that Mythal knew how to draw on lyrium without being negatively affected by it, which would give her an unlimited source of magic to use against the titan. Similar to how Shale can use the various lyrium veins in the battle against Branka. Or how Branka can use them, for that matter.

Hardly concrete, especially following the translation as "untorn Veils" is followed by the notation that it's "(uncertain)".

Right, but I think the fact that it's there at all is a clue from BioWare that... yeah, untorn veil means something important.

Because if the Solasan temple belonged to Fen'Harel, then Solas would have reason to obfuscate whom the text might have referred to. If he's not in your party, the partial translation is based on our historical knowledge of ancient elven lore... historical knowledge which probably has more holes in it than a rowing boat made out of swiss cheese.

But as you said, the inscriptions could have been worn or damaged. So that is probably the reason. I don't see how anything written there implicates the elven apostate who is traveling with us.

But why tip his hand that he knows more than he's letting on, especially since people were already questioning how he knew of Skyhold's location and his seeming fluency in the language that by this point had devolved into a fragmentary pidgin?

How is accurately translating something tipping your hand? And the fact that he spoke fluent elvhen was explained by his communion with Fade spirits, which is actually more of a hand tip than anything.

The other translator would have no reason to suspect that Solas might have given an incorrect translation of the text, as no-one is supposed to know the language correctly.

But Solas doesn't know how good the other translator really is, or that the translator won't discover more information at some later date revealing the accurate translation.

As Elvish involves a lot of wordplay and is a game of intents, it's not hard to twist the meaning of a sentence if the words have multiple meanings depending on how you view them.

So what are you getting at here? That the inscription said the one called Solas created a Veil to cut off the elvhen kingdoms? Because that's Solas' only other option, to lie about what is really stated there.

Actually, all that does is show that the Chant of Light was incorrect in attributing the Veil to the Maker.

It would show that the Chant is not correct about who the supreme being is.

It's like how the accepted history prior to Jaws of Hakkon was that Inquisitor Ameridan was most likely an Andrastian human noble... when in reality, he was a polytheistic Elven mage.

I don't think its the same thing. The Chant is insistent that the Maker divided energy from the Fade and created the real world with it, then created the Veil to separate them. If the Maker didn't create the Veil, and the Chant is wrong about this, then it stands to reason that the Maker didn't create the real world either and the Chant is wrong about all of it. There's already doubt thrown on Andraste being divinely inspired. If the Chant is proven wrong on these issues then it means there is no basis for it, and that it's wrong.

Sometimes people get the facts wrong. Especially when they write things years, decades, centuries or even millennia after the fact.

But the Chant is supposed to be divinely inspired. From there it was reprinted word for word, with the obvious meddling by various Chantry officials who removed certain things or brought them back into canon.

[Xilizhra]

That's a stretch. He petrified roughly a dozen Qunari at the end of Trespasser (and three near the beginning of it), and the positioning of the Qunari indicates that he petrified them one after another, not all at once. All he did was use a strong version of Petrify with rapid cooldown. That makes him a powerful mage, not someone who can create a magical vibration that runs through two dimensions and separates them without deteriorating.

No. Petrify encases enemies in rock, it doesn't transform them into rock. It also wears off in seconds, so a permanent version with no cooldown is still way more than any other mage could do.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The evidence that the humans were around during the time of the Evanuris is sketchy, because that whole era is so far back that we can't be sure how much is actual history.   Human folklore states they arrived in the northern islands (Par Vollen?) around -3100 Ancient.   This was the Neromenians, who were known as seafarers.   The question is, where did they come from?    How much further back did they come into being?    If they were around for far longer elsewhere, were the two races of humans and elves aware of each others existence?   

 

After the Neromenians arrived, it was some 250 years before the elves felt the Quickening.    That would suggest that Solas didn't raise the Veil until after the arrival of the humans, so they were around during the time of the Evanuris.    Further evidence to back this up can be found in Ferelden, where the ancient ruins had evidence of humans and elves living together and venerating the Creators.     Even if the elves clung to belief in the Creators after they disappeared, it seems unlikely that humans would have done the same if they never knew them in the first place.

 

To complicate matters there are the legends associated with the Alamarri have them crossing the Frostbacks and settling the area that is now Ferelden in -2415 (just over 400 years after the Quickening) moving there to escape the "shadow goddess".   Scholars suggest they were escaping a natural disaster but Solas confirms it was indeed a spirit (god) that they were trying to escape.     So they were clearly living somewhere on the other side of the Frostbacks before leaving.    How long had they been there?   Did they originate from the original Neromenian settlers or somewhere else entirely?   It seems unlikely the Alamarri were the ones co-existing with elves as there is no mention of them in their legends, apart from the Lady of the Skies, who was the "leafed eared lover" of Tyrdda Brightaxe but that wasn't until the era when her tribe broke away to form the Avaar (-1815).

 

Finally, there is the codex about Andruil growing tired of hunting mortals.    The elves did not regard themselves as mortals, which suggests she must have been hunting either dwarves or humans.    It was at this point she started hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void and likely when things started going wrong for the Evanuris, so it would be near the end of their reign but nevertheless it would indicate humans were around during her time.  If this was a reference to humans, then they certainly weren't living peacefully with the elves but it was the Evanuris, or Andruil at least, who were the aggressors.

 

"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but he is as mortal as any of you" is the message that was given to the freed elven slaves in the Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf. Plus, the fact that Vivienne says there is zero record of a time before the Veil in human history (even legends) might also suggest it the true Fall of the Elvhenan was before humanity's arrival on the continent. So far as I know, humans don't have any half remembered stories about an ancient cataclysm like cities falling from the sky either.

[Dai Grepher]

No. Petrify encases enemies in rock, it doesn't transform them into rock. It also wears off in seconds, so a permanent version with no cooldown is still way more than any other mage could do.

Well I did write that his spell was stronger than Petrify. Still, that makes him a powerful mage, as I wrote. It doesn't mean he created the entire Veil, which logically should be present across the entire planet at least.

Plus, the fact that Vivienne says there is zero record of a time before the Veil in human history (even legends) might also suggest it the true Fall of the Elvhenan was before humanity's arrival on the continent. So far as I know, humans don't have any half remembered stories about an ancient cataclysm like cities falling from the sky either.

Nor do they document floating cities or a world in which almost anything is possible. I think this also indicates that humans lived in parts of the world where the Veil existed, compared to the elvhen who lived in parts where the Veil had large gaps.

[Gervaise]

We don't know that the cities literally fell from the sky; just that they fell into ruins, that could have happened at ground level.    Plus the humans were probably only in localised areas, remote from the main centres of civilisation of the elves so would not have witnessed these things happen.    However, they did come across the ruins fairly quickly because it was only 50 years after the advent of the Quickening that the humans first started hearing whispers from the Fade and I'd have a fair guess it was in the region of the old elven ruins.     Dorian says there are pictures of ancient Tevinter dreamers with Foci like those of the elves in pictures in Minrathous.   Unfortunately, until we get more information there is no way of knowing the date these pictures were meant to represent.     One thing Patrick Weekes confirmed is that many of the later Tevinter cities were built over old elven ruins and I wouldn't mind betting this was because of the residual magic there.  It may even be that humans rummaging around in elven ruins discovered shrines to elven gods, depicted in their dragon form and this gave them the idea that the gods look like dragons.   However, if they had actually seen the elven gods flying around as dragons, this would make even more sense.

 

As for the Chant being wrong disproving the Maker, that is not strictly the case.   We only have their word for it that what is contained in it actually are Andraste's words about the Maker.    There are numerous different bits to the Chant that date to different eras, some well after Andraste died and so only passed on through oral tradition, which became mixed in with local folk lore.  The Canticle of Shartan is like this so why shouldn't the other bits of the Chant be the same.    You cannot say that the Chant is divinely inspired when the Divines have played fast and loose with its content, adding and taking away from it as they saw fit.   

 

What I would assert is that all the revelations in DAI and its DLC, including the true history of Andraste, have pretty much disproved the Chantry is a divinely inspired organisation.   No surprise there considering how people respond to the revelations concerning the true origin of the Herald's mark; apparently truth is not so important as inspiring the masses.   I was stating I was Andrastrian but not a follower of the Chantry back in DAO.   This feeling was only reinforced in DA2 and confirmed in DAI.   Which is why I was so incensed that my only options at the end of Trespasser were to either disband the Inquisition or put it under the control of the Divine and thus the Chantry, just as the first Inquisition had been.   As a result I preferred to disband.

 

The Maker can neither be proven nor disproven; the writers have claimed they do not intend doing so.   Considering a fundamental of Chantry teaching is that he has turned his back on the world and will not respond until it suits him to do so (everyone sings the Chant), what does it matter if he does exist?   He's not stepping in to help any time soon. 

 

If he should suddenly pop up and say "Hi", I'll be only too happy to be proven wrong.    Let's face it, apart from a few dialogue choices, it made precious little difference if we were committed believers or not in DAI.     

 

Was it in DAO or Neverwinter Nights where if you prayed at an altar to one of the elven gods and you weren't their worshiper, you got zapped?   Now that is the sort of thing I am talking about.   May be the next time you take coins from the offering at a local shrine.    Strangely enough, if you desecrate the altar of Dumat in Legacy, you do get attacked.   What is that meant to tell us?

[veeia]

Dai, do you have a theory of why the Veil was created and who did it, and do you believe its significant to the present day Thedas? (I apologize if you stated this before, there's so much going on in this thread, which is great but I could have missed it)

[Dai Grepher]

We don't know that the cities literally fell from the sky; just that they fell into ruins, that could have happened at ground level.

Why not both? There were some cities in the sky, as Solas claims. I mean, he could be lying but why would he lie about that? So these fell or were trapped in the Crossroads and deteriorated, and there were obviously cities on the ground as well, which the titans were shaking to ruin, which is why Mythal and others had to do something about them. Also, the Veil being spread to those areas is described as "The Fall" by the Spirit of Learning in the Vir Dirthara.

Plus the humans were probably only in localised areas, remote from the main centres of civilisation of the elves so would not have witnessed these things happen.

I agree.

However, they did come across the ruins fairly quickly because it was only 50 years after the advent of the Quickening that the humans first started hearing whispers from the Fade and I'd have a fair guess it was in the region of the old elven ruins.

Maybe, but Abelas makes it sound like the elvhen who survived The Fall ended up warring with each other and killing each other off for the most part. The humans only found the ruins and picked the bones clean.

Still, I think the main question is if any humans were able to enter parts of the world where the Veil did not cover. We they blocked by physical barriers? Was the malleable existence of the Crossroads too much for them to handle? Did the Fade energies distort their perceptions somehow, or was their consciousness able to perceive that reality? We already know that non-elves cannot see all the colors in the Crossroads, nor can they see certain creations such as flowers.

Dorian says there are pictures of ancient Tevinter dreamers with Foci like those of the elves in pictures in Minrathous.   Unfortunately, until we get more information there is no way of knowing the date these pictures were meant to represent.     One thing Patrick Weekes confirmed is that many of the later Tevinter cities were built over old elven ruins and I wouldn't mind betting this was because of the residual magic there.  It may even be that humans rummaging around in elven ruins discovered shrines to elven gods, depicted in their dragon form and this gave them the idea that the gods look like dragons.   However, if they had actually seen the elven gods flying around as dragons, this would make even more sense.

Building cities over elvhen ruins makes sense if the elvhen cities existed in the gaps that allowed the Crossroads dimension to be interacted with. When Solas closed the gaps by either pulling the Veil in or creating an artificial Veil himself, it left those areas with a thinner Veil than parts of Thedas that always had the Veil in place. The result would be that magic was more abundant in those places.

As for the dragons, I don't think the evanuris and the old gods are connected. I'm sure they interacted back in the old days, but I think the old gods were more like a rival organization of false gods, and I think the old gods were more powerful than the evanuris.

As for the Chant being wrong disproving the Maker, that is not strictly the case.   We only have their word for it that what is contained in it actually are Andraste's words about the Maker.    There are numerous different bits to the Chant that date to different eras, some well after Andraste died and so only passed on through oral tradition, which became mixed in with local folk lore.  The Canticle of Shartan is like this so why shouldn't the other bits of the Chant be the same.    You cannot say that the Chant is divinely inspired when the Divines have played fast and loose with its content, adding and taking away from it as they saw fit.

Okay, but there's a difference between a verse that condemns bringing harm to the defenseless and a verse that clearly says the Maker is responsible for certain actions. If the Maker didn't create the world, then there is no Maker. If the Maker didn't speak to Andraste and help her fight Tevinter, then there is no Maker. If the Maker did not curse the Magisters, then there is no Maker. The Chant identifies that universe's deity as a being who did this, that, and the other thing. So if evidence arises that shows this is untrue, it means the claims made in the Chant are baseless and just made-up ideas. There could still be one true deity in the DA universe, but it wouldn't be the one that the Chant describes.

What I would assert is that all the revelations in DAI and its DLC, including the true history of Andraste, have pretty much disproved the Chantry is a divinely inspired organisation.

I disagree that the DLCs proved anything of the sort, but I do understand that the Chantry itself is not divinely inspired. According to the Chant and the Guardian, the Maker spoke only to Andraste. After they burned her, the Maker left mankind to its fate, and the Chant has been guesswork ever since. However, to the best of my knowledge, the parts of the Chant dealing with the creation of the world were all from Andraste.

No surprise there considering how people respond to the revelations concerning the true origin of the Herald's mark; apparently truth is not so important as inspiring the masses.   I was stating I was Andrastrian but not a follower of the Chantry back in DAO.   This feeling was only reinforced in DA2 and confirmed in DAI.   Which is why I was so incensed that my only options at the end of Trespasser were to either disband the Inquisition or put it under the control of the Divine and thus the Chantry, just as the first Inquisition had been.   As a result I preferred to disband.

Trespasser gave us no choices. Both endings are essentially the same. My choice came down to the fact that my Inquisitor is a mage. If he disbanded, he would be just another mage who had to go back to the Circle. At least this way he is allowed to act as an agent in the outside world.

The Maker can neither be proven nor disproven; the writers have claimed they do not intend doing so.   Considering a fundamental of Chantry teaching is that he has turned his back on the world and will not respond until it suits him to do so (everyone sings the Chant), what does it matter if he does exist?   He's not stepping in to help any time soon.

The concept of God will never be proven or disproven in the DA universe, but that's different from saying the Maker will never be proven or disproven. As for why its important, I think it would be for those living in Thedas. They believe he does not intervene in their world, while some believe he does, but all Andrastians believe that he accepts them to his side when they die so long as they are faithful.

If he should suddenly pop up and say "Hi", I'll be only too happy to be proven wrong.    Let's face it, apart from a few dialogue choices, it made precious little difference if we were committed believers or not in DAI.

Eh, roleplaying is serious business. I think being able to show faith was an important aspect of the game, especially if a mage, and especially if romancing Cassandra.

Was it in DAO or Neverwinter Nights where if you prayed at an altar to one of the elven gods and you weren't their worshiper, you got zapped?

Now that is the sort of thing I am talking about. May be the next time you take coins from the offering at a local shrine. Strangely enough, if you desecrate the altar of Dumat in Legacy, you do get attacked. What is that meant to tell us?

The only part in DA:O that was anything close to that was the elven temple where the werewolves were. You gain access to the burial chamber with the Juggernaut armor by doing the ritual in the proper sequence. Anyone can do it, but you have to do it right. A wrong move will make Shades appear.

That demons watch over the Altar of Dumat.

[Dai Grepher]

Dai, do you have a theory of why the Veil was created and who did it, and do you believe its significant to the present day Thedas? (I apologize if you stated this before, there's so much going on in this thread, which is great but I could have missed it)

I think the Maker created the Veil in order to separate the Fade and the Real. The Maker could have also placed gaps in the Veil so that the spirits could learn from the Real, and the people could be inspired by the Fade. Though it's possible he made it solid and the gaps were made by some of his creations. Maybe the old gods made them, or maybe the first evanuris. Or maybe the titans did somehow. In any case, Solas merely discovered the Veil (as Sylaise discovered fire but did not bring it into existence), and he used his magic to close the gaps, or perhaps create an artificial Veil to fill those gaps. Solas probably genuinely believes he created the entire Veil but I think he's mistaken because of his limited perspective at the time or perhaps due to not remembering that time properly.

As for the Veil's significance, it prevents the Fade and the Real from merging into one again. My personal theory is that a complete merger of the Fade and the Real to what it once was is a secret plot by the old gods as well as the Forbidden Ones. I think Solas is being used. I thought Corypheus was being used, and he was, but I figured it was the Forbidden Ones or the old gods using him. But I also theorized that Flemeth was the Formless One, which I was wrong about, but I do think Mythal is using Solas. She doesn't want the Veil to be removed, but she knows the truth about the Veil and that he didn't create it. She just wants the evanuris released so she can get her revenge on them. But it's possible she's also being used. Her consciousness was fragmented after all, and she was trying to use Urthemiel's soul for something (perhaps to empower herself). Maybe the remaining old gods are manipulating her somehow.

Whatever the case, Solas will be told the truth by the (ex)Inquisitor, he will refuse to heed the warning that the Veil will not drop completely, and he will do it anyway. The gaps will reopen, and only certain parts of Thedas will "burn in the raw chaos". As Sandal says, "the skies will open wide". Skies is plural. The Breach was just one area. One sky. The gaps will appear in the sky over the Bricillian Forest, the sky over the Dales, the sky over Nevarra, the sky over Kirkwall, the sky over Serault, the sky over the Anderfels, etc.

It will be up to the DA5 crew to rescue people from the Crossroads as well as defeat the released evanuris. I think Elgar'nan will be fully powered, as will Falon'Din, though Dirthamen, Andruil, and the other less interesting evanuris will have entered uthenera to pass the time. They will be weak, but I can see Elgar'nan not resting at all in his rage, and Falon'Din will have just had unshakable patience the whole time.

I think Solas' "plans" for the released evanuris was to assume each of them would have entered uthenera rather than deal with millennia of boredom. This would leave them weak. Solas would then go to each one and kill them. If any awakened before he could get to them, their first instinct would be to go to the Deeper Roads for lyrium from a slain titan, in which case they would have been walking into one of Solas' traps. But Solas thinks they will all be weak. I think that will be another miscalculation on his part. Elgar'nan and Falon'Din will be ready for action right off the rip, and that's where Solas gets his ass handed to him. Then Mythal appears to him and explains what happened, and that she let it happen. Then before he dies he realizes he's an idiot, and gives his remaining power to the (ex)Inquisitor. The (x)In can then either kill him, stay with him until he dies, or some extra options for the female Levellan who romanced him.

As for the "raw chaos" I think the main reason why Solas thinks the world of Thedas won't survive is because most people can't function in the Fade. Of course physical reality will be altered, which is bad enough for a world build on real foundations, but the people themselves lack the consciousness necessary to properly survive under the influence of the Fade. Some party companions in DA:O can't see through the deception. Some party members in DA2 turn on you for deals with demons. Some party members in Inquisition are freaked out by the Fade. The people who were pulled into the Fade in the Blackmarsh didn't even know they were in the Fade until Justice informed them of it. So I think Solas believes most people will be so dysfunctional that they'll be running around in circles like blind nugs, and any with enough intelligence to maintain will still fall victim to demons. That's why he sounds so depressed when he talks about it in Trespasser. He thought mortals were just animals capable of speech, basically. Then he learned that they were people, and it depressed him because he thought they still weren't enlightened enough to exist on the level of the elvhen. Yet at the same time, he can't stand living in a veiled world among people so inferior (like walking through a world full of tranquil), which is also partly why he can't get involved with a female Levellan. At most she's just a cute and clever housecat to him. Can't be his equal, and even if she could she'll die long before he does.

Of course, I think Solas is wrong about all this as well. It's no coincidence that all of our custom characters thus far have been able to navigate the Fade. The Hero, the Champion, the Inquisitor. All three can show competence or outright mastery over the Fade. I'm sure the Tevinter protagonist from DA4 will be the same way. I think BioWare could use these characters and others to rescue people out of the Crossroads when Solas reopens the gaps. But there will be safe havens outside the gaps where the real world remains unaffected. The main goal will be preventing the entire Veil from being destroyed. THAT would destroy the entire world for sure because it would result in the Fade and the Real being merged into one again. And I think that's what the old gods wanted. They wanted things to return to the way it was before the Maker created the Real by using energy from the Fade. The old gods likely were among the Maker's first creations. Problem was, the Maker was still around when they were, so they couldn't get away with anything shady. When they tried, the Maker sealed them away in the real world under miles of rock. So they attempted to tear down his throne room. That backfired. So now they just want out of their prisons before the blight gets them. Tearing down the Veil would cause the real world to become malleable, and they would be able to release themselves. Best of all, no Maker around to stop them anymore. The Forbidden Ones probably want the same. The Forgotten Ones are probably like the evanuris, just a different ideology. But yeah, if everything just returned to the Fade, the old gods would likely be the most powerful beings in that universe. Even Urthemiel speaking through the filter of Kieran seemed to know more about everything than Solas.

Anyway, this is why my Hero King believed in allying with mages and bringing them into the community. Morrigan's warning led him to conclude that the change that would be coming to the world would be one that affects the Veil. He had always known that the Fade and magic needed to be studied and understood. The Circle and the encounter with Gaxkang reinforced this, as did his adventures in the Blackmarsh and Amgarrak. The best ones to do this research are mages, and they know the rules of the Fade better than anyone (aside from spirits perhaps). This is my headcanon for why Queen Anora granted asylum to the mages in my world state, though if my Hero King had been there he would have broken the mages up into various groups and placed them in multiple cities and towns so they could not be mobilized to war unless the crown willed it.

[Qun00]

Hrm, I could see someone choosing the simpler version of a specific vallaslin being seen by some in the community as prioritizing vanity/temporary escape from pain over piety. People do like to judge on silly things.

Well, can you think of a third reason? It is either because this particular elf can't handle the pain or doesn't like the way the full design looks.

[Dai Grepher]

Are you referring to designs between two different evanuris, or are you referring to the simple vs. complex designs of one evanuris?

If the former, then it's just a matter of which evanuris they favor.

If the later, maybe the Dalish see it a different way. The required amount is the simple version. If you want to show extra dedication, then you choose the complex version. Those who take the required amount are not looked down on or ridiculed, it's just that those who show the extra dedication are honored for it. Like the difference between being a patriotic American and being a patriotic American who serves in the armed forces.

It's also possible that each Dalish received vallaslin at different times. Perhaps the simple version is given at adulthood, while the complex version is added to it when the elf does something worthy of note or achieved some great accomplishment. Like, you learned all the stories, here's your upgraded Dirthamen vallaslin, or you crafted a masterwork bow, here's your extra June vallaslin.

Of course, that isn't to imply that every Dalish clan sees it that way. Each clan might have different customs.

[veeia]

Thanks for typing all that out Dai, I understand where you're coming from in these conversations a lot more now. Very interesting thoughts!

 

Well, can you think of a third reason? It is either because this particular elf can't handle the pain or doesn't like the way the full design looks.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of cultural trends within religion. I mean, the Dalish in general remain pretty static, that's a big part of their thing, but it's possible you could see some diverging evolution of how they view the vallaslin's importance. So if you put less emphasis on it as a tradition, you might not be inclined to think a full tattoo is important, so you might not get one. But if you were more of a "traditionalist" in that sense and viewed it as very important, you might regard that view as a lack of piety when it's actually just a different perspective on piety. The person with the smaller vallaslin might be just as religious, but have other areas that they express that in.

 

We can see that there are different approaches to how the Dalish interact with the outside world, so I imagine clans like Lavellan, who are less about extreme separatism and more desiring of improving relations, could have elves in it be more open to the smaller vallaslin because they don't feel the need to separate themselves as much. So it could even have a political motivation, I don't know.

 

Just ideas for thought though, I don't think there's anything in the game about it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

[Sifr]

Nor do they document floating cities or a world in which almost anything is possible. I think this also indicates that humans lived in parts of the world where the Veil existed, compared to the elvhen who lived in parts where the Veil had large gaps.

 

Would however explain why there are so many floating rocks with bizarre architecture and buildings on them, littering the Raw Fade?

 

They might be the result of buildings being pulled into the Fade when the Veil fell, constructs that collapsed into themselves when the magic maintaining them deteriorated, or fade-generated manifestations of old memories dating from that time, long since rendered unrecognisable as no-one alive (save Ancient Elves in Uthenera) can recall seeing them so the memories have faded (pardon the expression) with the passage of time.

 

I think the Maker created the Veil in order to separate the Fade and the Real. The Maker could have also placed gaps in the Veil so that the spirits could learn from the Real, and the people could be inspired by the Fade. Though it's possible he made it solid and the gaps were made by some of his creations. Maybe the old gods made them, or maybe the first evanuris. Or maybe the titans did somehow. In any case, Solas merely discovered the Veil (as Sylaise discovered fire but did not bring it into existence), and he used his magic to close the gaps, or perhaps create an artificial Veil to fill those gaps. Solas probably genuinely believes he created the entire Veil but I think he's mistaken because of his limited perspective at the time or perhaps due to not remembering that time properly.

 

But why would Bioware introduce the idea that Solas created the Veil, when disproving this would suggest the Maker does indeed exists, something they have stated numerous times that they don't want to do?

 

Solas being the creator of the Veil fits with both the abilities shown by his Orb and the Anchor, the highly complex equations that we find in Trespasser that demonstrate the necessary technical know-how, coupled with his extensive knowledge of the Fade. Who also happens to be a powerful Ancient Elf, who was either a member of - or on the same level - as the Evanuris and once owned a fortress purposefully designed for "something big" according to Mason Gatsi, that happens have a name meaning "The place where the Sky was held back".

 

While it's possible that he might have been lying, there's a lot of evidence backing up or at least making his claim seem extremely plausible.

 

Besides, is it really so strange that a religion started by a human wouldn't ascribe something important to someone other than their god? The Chant of Light was written nearly a thousand years after the fall of Arlathan, so it's more contemporaneous to era following the First Blight than the era following the creation of the Veil. The Chant being set down as a song may have been because Andraste and some of her followers were illiterate (if the Alamarri hold the same stock in literacy as the modern Avvar), so chose to keep the Chant as a spoken history, until it was finally transcribed years later.

 

As Mother Giselle notes, some things may have been misheard or misinterpreted. She also points out that for various political and ideological reasons, the Chant has had various alterations made to the text, such as entire Canticles being stricken from it. So while it might have gotten some details correct, as a pseudo-historical record that's been edited more times than a wiki page, it cannot be held up as entirely reliable.

[The Ascendant]

Speaking of Elves, is it just me or is Cassandra a little bit racist and xenophobic when it comes to Elven beliefs?