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Arlathvhen: Bringing together those with elven hearts.


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#251
Qun00

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Personally, I don't share the belief that the devs want to keep the Maker's existence ambiguous.

They will never confirm it, but they certainly don't shy away from denying it.

We've had Corypheus stating that he's visited the would-be-Golden City and there was no God there. And now, it's been revealed that the Veil wasn't the Maker's work either.

Speaking of Elves, is it just me or is Cassandra a little bit racist and xenophobic when it comes to Elven beliefs?


Ameridan would disagree with you.

#252
Xilizhra

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Ameridan would disagree with you.

I'll say she isn't if she's willing to accept the Creators as real as well.

 

Before the whole Trespasser kerfuffle, naturally.



#253
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That is unnecessary. "And there is no room for one more?" means an addition, not substitution.

An intolerant Andrastian would've said Lavellan should abandon elven worship entirely.
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#254
Xilizhra

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That is unnecessary. "And there is no room for one more?" means an addition, not substitution.

An intolerant Andrastian would've said Lavellan should abandon elven worship entirely.

It might help if she gave any reason for adding the Maker.



#255
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Her comment in the Temple of Mythal is pretty harsh.

 

Tbf, it's not a welcoming group overall for Lavellan. :lol:  When I played as a Lav, I remember really feeling like Blackwall was the only character who acted like the Dalish had any admirable qualities, and in that PT my Lav hated him and he left, so then there was no one.  It's possible Varric or IB had more positive things to say though, I don't think I used them much in that PT, but still.


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#256
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The whole point of the Maker is that He the creator of the world and the supreme divine being. Accepting Him along with the elven pantheon is to give Them an immediate demotion, and undermines everything about them.


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#257
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Eh, there are people in real life who believe that other people's religious are just different interpretations of the same divine presence. It's possible to see the elven pantheon as an extension of the Maker, although I'll grant it would probably be very difficult for any Andrastrians to accept that.


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#258
Xilizhra

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Her comment in the Temple of Mythal is pretty harsh.

 

Tbf, it's not a welcoming group overall for Lavellan. :lol:  When I played as a Lav, I remember really feeling like Blackwall was the only character who acted like the Dalish had any admirable qualities, and in that PT my Lav hated him and he left, so then there was no one.  It's possible Varric or IB had more positive things to say though, I don't think I used them much in that PT, but still.

Which comment does she make there? I always bring Blackwall.



#259
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When you're wandering through the Temple, she says something like "how could the elves devote so much to such nonsense?" in this very dismissive tone.

 

I had her with me when I was doing my very religious Dalish elf, so it felt really rude lmao, like dang, Cass.



#260
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Eh, there are people in real life who believe that other people's religious are just different interpretations of the same divine presence. It's possible to see the elven pantheon as an extension of the Maker, although I'll grant it would probably be very difficult for any Andrastrians to accept that.

 

True, but the Dalish have a cultural context here that's hard to ignore. Humans have stolen and destroyed virtually everything the elves have tried to preserve, build and accomplish (since the Veil went up, anyway), and much of that was done in the name of their Maker. You can't just accept the Maker as another god in the pantheon: He doesn't fit in as anything but a supreme creator god, and that position will always put Him above the elven gods, that is, a human god will be always be greater than the elven ones.

 

 

Which comment does she make there? I always bring Blackwall.

 

She basically calls the elven religion nonsense, and combined with her wanting a Dalish Inquisitor to just "accept another god" it paints a nasty picture. Cassandra doesn't care about the Dalish religion, but she's apparently willing to stomach minor references to it as long they accept that the Maker is number one.


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#261
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The whole point of the Maker is that He the creator of the world and the supreme divine being. Accepting Him along with the elven pantheon is to give Them an immediate demotion, and undermines everything about them.


Is it? Despite what the term "creators" may imply, the Dalish don't see the elven gods as responsible for the existence of the universe.

It is different from the way the Maker is perceived by Andrastians.
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#262
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The whole point of the Maker is that He the creator of the world and the supreme divine being. Accepting Him along with the elven pantheon is to give Them an immediate demotion, and undermines everything about them.


Is it? Despite what the term "creators" may imply, the Dalish don't see the elven gods as responsible for the existence of the universe.

It is different from the way the Maker is perceived by Andrastians.

#263
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True, but the Dalish have a cultural context here that's hard to ignore. Humans have stolen and destroyed virtually everything the elves have tried to preserve, build and accomplish (since the Veil went up, anyway), and much of that was done in the name of their Maker. You can't just accept the Maker as another god in the pantheon: He doesn't fit in as anything but a supreme creator god, and that position will always put Him above the elven gods, that is, a human god will be always be greater than the elven ones.

 

 

 

She basically calls the elven religion nonsense, and combined with her wanting a Dalish Inquisitor to just "accept another god" it paints a nasty picture. Cassandra doesn't care about the Dalish religion, but she's apparently willing to stomach minor references to it as long they accept that the Maker is number one.

 

What I imagine would happen would be the elves leaning more towards one of their gods being the "chief deity", as you see in religions that have shifted from polytheistic to a more pseudo-monotheistic, and then that god being seen as akin to the Maker. I do agree there's a lot of cultural context going on there that would make all of it difficult, but that's the only way I could really see it happening. I think there's a lot of potential for religious fusions/divergent sects based on local religions + the dominate religion that hasn't been explored, not just for the elves, but for the dwarves (Andrastrianism that incorporates some of the concepts of the Stone) and the Tal Vashoth (Andrastrianism that takes ideas from the Qun). There's a few things like this already, like the Fereldan song about Andrastre's mabari, lmao, but it would be cool to see it explored more. Religions that are fundamentally incompatible philosophically tend to have conflict, yes, but they also tend to hybridize sometimes especially if one is colonizing the other (as Andrastrianism is doing).

 

With Cass, I found that remark incredibly frustrating. I felt like my Inquisitor's interactions with Cass were ones of respectful difference for most of the game and it was really nice (I didn't get the "accept another god" dialogue with her), but that remark left me feeling like Cass only respected my Inquisitor's faith because she had to respect her, not that she had any actual respect for other people's faiths.



#264
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Her comment in the Temple of Mythal is pretty harsh.

Tbf, it's not a welcoming group overall for Lavellan. :lol: When I played as a Lav, I remember really feeling like Blackwall was the only character who acted like the Dalish had any admirable qualities, and in that PT my Lav hated him and he left, so then there was no one. It's possible Varric or IB had more positive things to say though, I don't think I used them much in that PT, but still.


Well, naturally. She doesn't believe in the elven gods, just like the Dalish don't believe in the Maker.

Bring a Dalish elf to a Chantry temple and his/her opinion of Andrastianism will be just as "harsh".

You see, Cassandra doesn't have to support or agree with elven beliefs in order to be deemed tolerant. All that is required of her is to treat the believers themselves decently, which she does.
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#265
Xilizhra

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Bring a Dalish elf to a Chantry temple and his/her opinion of Andrastianism will be just as "harsh".

It's funny, because we do just that in DA2, and guess what doesn't happen?


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#266
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Eh, I'm not religious but if I was with a very religious friend and we discovered an enormous ruin of a temple for their faith, I wouldn't make some dismissive comment about how stupid it is. That to me is part of treating them decently. :lol:

 

When you have a non Lavellan character, it just seems a bit rude and limited (come on Cass, it's history! it's beautiful architecture!) but when you are playing as Lavellan who has expressed Dalish faith, it's jarring.

 

I'm not saying Cass is a monster or anything, she's one of my favorites, but it's definitely showing one of her more flawed aspects.


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#267
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It's funny, because we do just that in DA2, and guess what doesn't happen?


Oh, is there a quest that revolves around Andrastian beliefs?

Eh, I'm not religious but if I was with a very religious friend and we discovered an enormous ruin of a temple for their faith, I wouldn't make some dismissive comment about how stupid it is. That to me is part of treating them decently. :lol:

When you have a non Lavellan character, it just seems a bit rude and limited (come on Cass, it's history! it's beautiful architecture!) but when you are playing as Lavellan who has expressed Dalish faith, it's jarring.

I'm not saying Cass is a monster or anything, she's one of my favorites, but it's definitely showing one of her more flawed aspects.

Cassandra doesn't actually say that to Lavellan.

#268
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What? She says it while you're exploring. I got it with my Lavellan. Was I not supposed to?



#269
Iakus

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It might help if she gave any reason for adding the Maker.

Why?  Many religions acknowledge the Maker as a being even if they don't worship him. 



#270
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It's funny, because we do just that in DA2, and guess what doesn't happen?

I found Merrill and Sebastian's religious debates fascinating myself



#271
Lord of War

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Why?  Many religions acknowledge the Maker as a deity even if they don't worship him. 

 

Care to name some?



#272
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What? She says it while you're exploring. I got it with my Lavellan. Was I not supposed to?


I didn't say that Cassandra doesn't say it. I meant that her remark is never directed at Lavellan.

It is different from the conversation with Sera, which involves literally telling you that you're wrong.

#273
Xilizhra

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Oh, is there a quest that revolves around Andrastian beliefs?

Several, but I refer to Merrill's dialogue in the Chantry.

 

 

Why?  Many religions acknowledge the Maker as a being even if they don't worship him. 

The only one I can think of is maybe ancient Tevinter's.



#274
Iakus

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Care to name some?

Tevinter Old God worship, acknowledge the Maker even if they see him as an enemy

 

the Avvar see the Maker as another spirit to be worshipped

 

And as Ameridan demonstrated, at least some Dalish can reconcile the Maker with the Creators



#275
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Look at me, I'm an elf! Trees are pretty! Tra la la la la~~~