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Arlathvhen: Bringing together those with elven hearts.


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#276
veeia

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I didn't say that Cassandra doesn't say it. I meant that her remark is never directed at Lavellan.

It is different from the conversation with Sera, which involves literally telling you that you're wrong.

 

Oh, I see what you mean. I would consider comments like that as directed at the whole party, so I'd say while she's not specifically targeting Lavellan, she's not considering her either and Lavellan is still part of the intended audience.  I'm not trying to make this into a big deal or anything, just that its a bit harsh and inconsiderate. Cass has a tendency to be like that from time to time, as she'll admit, so it's not like its poorly written or anything, just an awkward moment for my particular Lavellan.

 

I didn't find the conversations with Sera very difficult with that Lavellan, actually. I think with Sera, she's pretty upfront from the beginning about her issues and my particular Lavellan had no problem distancing herself emotionally from her.



#277
Lord of War

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I didn't say that Cassandra doesn't say it. I meant that her remark is never directed at Lavellan.

It is different from the conversation with Sera, which involves literally telling you that you're wrong.

 

I really don't see the difference here. Who else is going to hear Cassandra's comments?



#278
Qun00

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Several, but I refer to Merrill's dialogue in the Chantry.


I believe you are mistaking it for "quests that merely take place in the Chantry".

Ahh, so you're comparing short lines prompted by visiting different locations and a large quest that directly addresses a group's beliefs like WPHW.

But I do like that you singled out the "harsh statement" part of my original post. Good to know that you agree or can't refute the rest.

#279
Xilizhra

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I believe you are mistaking it for "quests that merely take place in the Chantry".

Not so much, given that Andrastian beliefs are a topic of major conflict in this game.

 

 

Ahh, so you're comparing short lines prompted by visiting different locations and a large quest that directly addresses a group's beliefs.

Is Cassandra's line not tied to exploring the Temple of Mythal?



#280
veeia

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If you brought a Dalish elf to a Andrastrian ruin and they said something similar while an Andrastrian character was experiencing a huge shift in their understanding,  I'd still consider it rude lmao, but I'd imagine that some of it could be stemming from bitterness about their current place in the culture + loss of their history being tied to the rise of that faith. So being dismissive would have other causes beyond "this faith is dumb", which I would find more sympathetic. It could still upset someone who was playing a faithful character though, and that'd be fair.

 

With Cass, it seems more like she doesn't get it and doesn't want to. Which is fine, but if you're talking about her in terms of being Divine + how she'd deal with the Dalish, it could potentially show her as not willing to deal with them. I also think that Cass is the type to immediately react harshly and then after considering something, come to a more fair conclusion, so I don't think it's entirely fair to use it to say she'd be intolerant, just that she has some reactive biases.


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#281
Qun00

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If you brought a Dalish elf to a Andrastrian ruin and they said something similar while an Andrastrian character was experiencing a huge shift in their understanding, I'd still consider it rude lmao, but I'd imagine that some of it could be stemming from bitterness about their current place in the culture + loss of their history being tied to the rise of that faith. So being dismissive would have other causes beyond "this faith is dumb", which I would find more sympathetic. It could still upset someone who was playing a faithful character though, and that'd be fair.

With Cass, it seems more like she doesn't get it and doesn't want to. Which is fine, but if you're talking about her in terms of being Divine + how she'd deal with the Dalish, it could potentially show her as not willing to deal with them. I also think that Cass is the type to immediately react harshly and then after considering something, come to a more fair conclusion, so I don't think it's entirely fair to use it to say she'd be intolerant, just that she has some reactive biases.


Maybe you would, but I know most people wouldn't have a problem with a Dalish elf mocking Andrastian beliefs.

It is more likely to be seen as simply natural and even an admirable attitude in standing for their own culture.

#282
Sifr

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Post-Temple banter with Sera and Cass, where she shows a bit more tolerance on the subject and how she can reconcile it with her own beliefs.

 

Sera: Hows that Temple of Demon Rubbish sitting with you, Cassandra?

Cass: I have faith the Inquisitor did as s/he thought was best.

Sera: Really? Lady Trained-From-Birth has noooo problem with a Temple to "everything the Chantry says is s***"?

Cass: I do not say I had no problem. I said I have faith.



#283
The Ascendant

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I always thought it was an odd moment in her character, she's been pretty open minded in regards to other individuals, yet her dismissal seems somewhat arrogant. It's unfair and downright arrogant to accuse the elves of lavishing the Temple of one of their own gods, when the local Chantry or Cathedral is largest building in a city! It get that she takes her religion seriously, but she doesn't seem to get that maybe Lavellan treats his/her faith just as serious, well until the massive revelations in the rest of the games and especially if one romances Solas. It would kind of be like if Cassandra had a romance with Maferath and learned his perspective of Andraste.   



#284
Vit246

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Look at me, I'm an elf! Trees are pretty! Tra la la la la~~~

 

Look at me, I'm a shemlen! My god has a bigger d**k than your god! Tra la la la la


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#285
Jedi Master of Orion

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Look at me, I'm an elf! Trees are pretty! Tra la la la la~~~

 

Look at me, I'm a shemlen! My god has a bigger d**k than your god! Tra la la la la

 

Neither of these comments adds anything to the discussion. 

 

 

I'll say she isn't if she's willing to accept the Creators as real as well.

 

Before the whole Trespasser kerfuffle, naturally.

 

Using this standard makes Merrill equally xenophobic then. She is pretty open about the fact that she doesn't believe in the Maker.  


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#286
Xilizhra

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Using this standard makes Merrill equally xenophobic then. She is pretty open about the fact that she doesn't believe in the Maker.  

Merrill never tries to nudge anyone else into following the Creators.


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#287
The Ascendant

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To be fair the Chantry and the Qun are fairly racially tolerant (in theory). The Creators and the Stone is 'our kind only' kind of religion. The Chantry really needs to work on it's marketing if they want to win converts. The Qun offers very tangible benefits for joining, what does the Chantry offer an Elf, a Dwarf or even Tal-Vasoth? The want to spread it the whole world, yet don't include and outright discriminate other races. And for the most part the Chantry seems pretty content with itself as of the Dragon Age. It was the most common religion on the continent, allied closely with the most powerful empire in Thedas and fine with the status quo. 



#288
Dai Grepher

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Would however explain why there are so many floating rocks with bizarre architecture and buildings on them, littering the Raw Fade?


It's possible, but my understanding was that these rocks aren't real. They are manifestations of the Raw Fade. There is a codex in HLtA that explains why the rocks float, or at least one theory on why they float. The theory is that rocks are naturally occurring, and unshaped by the hands of mortals. So the Fade doesn't know how to represent them accurately.

It was also my understanding that the only real thing in the Fade is the Black City.

But it's possible that real rocks were sent there during the Fall, just as it's possible the water seen in HLtA is from Crestwood.

They might be the result of buildings being pulled into the Fade when the Veil fell, constructs that collapsed into themselves when the magic maintaining them deteriorated, or fade-generated manifestations of old memories dating from that time, long since rendered unrecognisable as no-one alive (save Ancient Elves in Uthenera) can recall seeing them so the memories have faded (pardon the expression) with the passage of time.


Maybe. But as it relates to human history, Vivienne implies that there is nothing about a time when the Veil did not exist. All I have ever seen is human historical accounts of the Golden City. That doesn't mean some lost human accounts of floating cities in the Real don't exist somewhere, but for now we have nothing about it.

But why would Bioware introduce the idea that Solas created the Veil, when disproving this would suggest the Maker does indeed exists, something they have stated numerous times that they don't want to do?


Proving that Solas didn't create the Veil doesn't prove the Maker exists, it just puts us back where we were, with the mere belief that the Maker created the Veil. I think BioWare has introduced this idea in order to lead up to a plot twist and provide Solas a plot in which he fails because he is proven wrong, again. He is a villain now, and he has to be defeated. Having his plan fail because he was operating on faulty knowledge is a good way to have the next protag or the (ex)Inquisitor defeat him.

It could also present a conflict of faith among Andrastians. If Solas created the Veil, it disproves their faith. So they have their faith tested in this. Then they discover that Solas didn't actually create the Veil like he thought, and then the Andrastians breathe a sigh of relief because their faith wasn't proven wrong. That doesn't automatically make them right, it just means they weren't proven wrong.

Solas being the creator of the Veil fits with both the abilities shown by his Orb and the Anchor, the highly complex equations that we find in Trespasser that demonstrate the necessary technical know-how, coupled with his extensive knowledge of the Fade.


His orb and the mark have only been shown to manipulate the Veil, not create it. I don't know what equations you're referring to. I know there are some in the Vir Dirthara that Vivienne and Dorian can comment on, but I don't remember those equations being linked to the Veil in any way. Even if they are, that doesn't mean it's a guide to creating the Veil. There are also some diagrams at the Darvaarad, probably drawn by a saarebas that show the inner workings of the eluvians.

As for his extensive knowledge of the Fade, that doesn't matter. He has lived a long time and has dreamt for thousands of years. Of course he will know more than most. Doesn't prove he created the Veil.

Who also happens to be a powerful Ancient Elf, who was either a member of - or on the same level - as the Evanuris and once owned a fortress purposefully designed for "something big" according to Mason Gatsi, that happens have a name meaning "The place where the Sky was held back".


Powerful ancient elf, yes, but I doubt he was powerful enough to cast a magical vibration across all existence. Was he on the level of the evanuris? Not necessarily. It can't be confirmed at this point. Owning a fortress means nothing. It being the location of a magic event means nothing. The magic event itself is implied to be where Solas used his power to cast his spell. What that spell entailed is what is up for debate. I'm sure he did something that cut the elvhen kingdoms off from the Fade, but I think he merely manipulated the existing Veil to close in on gaps that existed since before Solas was conceived. It's possible that he created a magic that mimics the Veil, and this magic filled the gaps, but I think there is just too much evidence suggesting that there was a Veil before the Fall.

While it's possible that he might have been lying, there's a lot of evidence backing up or at least making his claim seem extremely plausible.


I doubt he was lying. I don't see a reason why he would lie. I don't see how it benefits him. I think he genuinely thinks he created the Veil because he had never gone outside of the elvhen kingdoms to where the Veil existed. So he discovers a type of magical vibration that repels the "Beyond", and arrogantly thinks he created a new form of magic. Just as I'm sure Sylaise combined certain elements together with high temperatures to start a fire and thought herself the creator of fire.

Besides, is it really so strange that a religion started by a human wouldn't ascribe something important to someone other than their god?


No, but the point is that the religion would be false in that case. Andraste said the Maker created the Fade, then created the Real from energies from the Fade and made the Veil to separate the two. If that is proven false, then it makes Andraste a fraud, and the story of the Maker a lie.

As Mother Giselle notes, some things may have been misheard or misinterpreted. She also points out that for various political and ideological reasons, the Chant has had various alterations made to the text, such as entire Canticles being stricken from it. So while it might have gotten some details correct, as a pseudo-historical record that's been edited more times than a wiki page, it cannot be held up as entirely reliable.


Right, but again, I'm not referring to unimportant things like how demons first formed. I mean the core beliefs. The Maker exists and did specific stuff, the Maker cursed the Magisters Sidereal when they brought sin to Heaven, the Maker spoke to Andraste, having strong faith will get you through the Fade and to the Maker's side when you die, etc.

The theory on how to get the Maker to return is obviously wishful thinking. Andraste gave no answer for this, as the Maker didn't turn away from mortals until she was murdered. So yeah, stuff like that could be all wrong and it would make no difference, but the important stuff has to be possible at least in order for the Chant to be something worth believing.

Speaking of Elves, is it just me or is Cassandra a little bit racist and xenophobic when it comes to Elven beliefs?


Why wouldn't she be? They're false gods, like the old gods of Tevinter. She is in favor of the truth, which is what's important. In Jaws of Hakkon she appreciates the fact that Ameridan believed in the Maker and the elvhen pantheon. She may not have agreed with him, but she believed the truth about his beliefs should not be suppressed.

#289
veeia

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Maybe you would, but I know most people wouldn't have a problem with a Dalish elf mocking Andrastian beliefs.

It is more likely to be seen as simply natural and even an admirable attitude in standing for their own culture.

 

Well, I think there's two layers there. The personal and the cultural/political.

 

So if you look at it from the cultural/political side, of course a Dalish (or otherwise tbh) elf has more cause to be rude about Andrastrian religion. And expressing that isn't dangerous because the elves as a group do not have any institutional power, so it's not like saying something derogatory about it backs up any systemic discrimination or whatever. Asserting dissent in some contexts could be seen as an empowering act.

 

But on a personal level, if you're gonna be rude about your friends beliefs (and they aren't beliefs that are inherently dangerous to you), then it's still rude, the context might help someone process it better but it doesn't make the act any more noble. You're still being a jerk, just one with more cause.

 

So I guess reacting to a Dalish elf being rude in that kind of situation would depend on what you prioritize, if you think interpersonal relationships should always trump socio-economic status, then you'll probably find any expression of that distasteful if the Dalish elf initiates it.  If you think that interpersonal relationships must take into account socio-economic status or otherwise are invaluable, you'd probably accept the Dalish elf's assertion without taking offense and see their expression as essential for them.  I'm probably in the middle, in that I'd find it annoying but get where it's coming from and try to move on, lmao.



#290
Sifr

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No, but the point is that the religion would be false in that case. Andraste said the Maker created the Fade, then created the Real from energies from the Fade and made the Veil to separate the two. If that is proven false, then it makes Andraste a fraud, and the story of the Maker a lie.


Right, but again, I'm not referring to unimportant things like how demons first formed. I mean the core beliefs. The Maker exists and did specific stuff, the Maker cursed the Magisters Sidereal when they brought sin to Heaven, the Maker spoke to Andraste, having strong faith will get you through the Fade and to the Maker's side when you die, etc.

The theory on how to get the Maker to return is obviously wishful thinking. Andraste gave no answer for this, as the Maker didn't turn away from mortals until she was murdered. So yeah, stuff like that could be all wrong and it would make no difference, but the important stuff has to be possible at least in order for the Chant to be something worth believing.

 

The thing about a belief system is that it doesn't need to be based on anything true, just as long as enough people believe in it to be. We're told that Maker worship was a fringe cult in Tevinter until Andraste came along, who began claiming to have received visions from him, something not uncommon when it comes to religious figures.

 

Whether or not Andraste was a fraud doesn't disprove the Maker, but the point remains that we cannot accept the Chantry's version as true simply because a lot of people currently believe that to be the case. In a similar manner, we know that the Evanuris were a bunch of ancient mage warlords who formed their own personality cults, but I doubt the Dalish will readily accept this revelation disproving their religion should the subject arise in any future games, if the Inquisitor made this knowledge public post-Trespasser.

 

People will continue to believe what they want to believe, regardless of evidence. That's the whole point of having faith.



#291
Qun00

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Merrill never tries to nudge anyone else into following the Creators.


Because only elves are allowed to. It's not so much that she doesn't wish to force the issue but that sharing their culture with the shemlen is inconceivable.

Which reminds me... Merrill calls Feynriel a "half-breed" in the second quest related to him.

#292
Sifr

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Because only elves are allowed to. It's not so much that she doesn't wish to force the issue but that sharing their culture with the shemlen is inconceivable.

Which reminds me... Merrill calls Feynriel a "half-breed" in the second quest related to him.

 

It's not like she's the only one guilty of this, Marethari says that Fenyriel's "human blood" makes it difficult to train him.

 

The Elven scout we meet in the Exalted Plains is otherwise cheerful and friendly, but still (half-seriously) jokes that people don't really need a reason to want to kill Shems when talking about the demons being targeted towards the Orlesian armies.

 

Even tolerant Dalish still have moments where they cannot help but rag on Shemlen... they'd not be Dalish otherwise. :lol:


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#293
veeia

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The thing about a belief system is that it doesn't need to be based on anything true, just as long as enough people believe in it to be. We're told that Maker worship was a fringe cult in Tevinter until Andraste came along, who began claiming to have received visions from him, something not uncommon when it comes to religious figures.

 

Whether or not Andraste was a fraud doesn't disprove the Maker, but the point remains that we cannot accept the Chantry's version as true simply because a lot of people currently believe that to be the case. In a similar manner, we know that the Evanuris were a bunch of ancient mage warlords who formed their own personality cults, but I doubt the Dalish will readily accept this revelation disproving their religion should the subject arise in any future games, if the Inquisitor made this knowledge public post-Trespasser.

 

People will continue to believe what they want to believe, regardless of evidence. That's the whole point of having faith.

 

Tangentially, I really do hope it is made public or at least handled quickly for the player.

 

I think it will be frustrating if we have to interact with Dalish characters who don't know, while controlling a protagonist who doesn't know, while we have the meta-knowledge of it. So either I hope the DA4 protagonist knows (or finds out early) and can choose to tell the Dalish they encounter, or the Dalish already have that information.



#294
Dai Grepher

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We've had Corypheus stating that he's visited the would-be-Golden City and there was no God there. And now, it's been revealed that the Veil wasn't the Maker's work either.


Cory also said it was always black, until the final battle when he let it slip that he walked the halls of the Golden City. Cory's whole mission was to deny the Maker and become the world's god. So of course he lied.

There's no evidence that Solas created the Veil.
 

Is it? Despite what the term "creators" may imply, the Dalish don't see the elven gods as responsible for the existence of the universe.

It is different from the way the Maker is perceived by Andrastians.


Right. Elves might be able to believe in a "Maker", but in that case he would likely be the "Sun" that Elgar'nan beat the stars out of.
 

Look at me, I'm an elf! Trees are pretty! Tra la la la la~~~


Dude, I :ph34r: 'd you in like the fourth post on this. http://forum.bioware...1#entry20269524

#295
Xilizhra

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Cory also said it was always black, until the final battle when he let it slip that he walked the halls of the Golden City. Cory's whole mission was to deny the Maker and become the world's god. So of course he lied.

It had the name "Golden City" to Corypheus in his time; the title "Black City" wasn't adopted until well afterward. Additionally, if it was always visible in the Fade in the same way it is now, it probably looked golden from outside, but was filled with nothing but darkness and corruption within.



#296
veeia

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It had the name "Golden City" to Corypheus in his time; the title "Black City" wasn't adopted until well afterward. Additionally, if it was always visible in the Fade in the same way it is now, it probably looked golden from outside, but was filled with nothing but darkness and corruption within.

 

Yeah, I think it's way more compelling if it was already corrupted when he got there.

 

If this was the real world, I'd say it's more plausible he's lying because he's got the motivation to do it, as Dai noted, and it being true requires more things we believe or know to be true to be wrong.  But since this is a narrative, I think it's more plausible that he is telling the truth, and this is a big revelation that will call into question the things we believe to be true. It's more a satisfying delivery on the set-up.

 

But what that means for Andrastian's beliefs and history, I don't know. It could be a radical shift because Andrastre was not divinely inspired, or it could indicate something else. After all, Andrastre's own words could have been used in ways she didn't intend. Texts that didn't support this reading could have been suppressed, etc. If you look at the history of most religious text, there's a lot of struggle for what is included vs what's left out and its all about political/philosophical disagreements not what is "true", and we have precedent in this already with Shartan. There's absolutely a political dimension to Tevinter being the cause for the Black City, after all.



#297
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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It's a shame that Sera suffered from self hate and not embracing her elven culture but there's a lot of indigenous peoples that have those issues as well. It's like they telling the truths in games.

#298
Steelcan

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It's a shame that Sera suffered from self hate and not embracing her elven culture but there's a lot of indigenous peoples that have those issues as well. It's like they telling the truths in games.

how on Earth have you not been banned



#299
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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how on Earth have you not been banned

Aww you miss me? Aww You shouldn't have! ^^

#300
Steelcan

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Aww you miss me? Aww You shouldn't have! ^^

I do come to miss all of the fun trolls and other people that keep this forum entertaining eventually