1604 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

So what? You don't meet Nathaniel until Awakening anyway.

[Qun00]

I think I'll pick that shield from the Warden-Commander set. It isn't the best, but close enough.

Moving on to another subject, I'm curious about how one would RP a Dalish Inquisitor that chooses to keep the Inquisition in Trespasser.

His/her people have bitter memories of what the Chantry does with military power. Leliana/Cassandra is trustworthy, but who knows what the next Divine will do with this force at her disposal?

[Xilizhra]

Moving on to another subject, I'm curious about how one would RP a Dalish Inquisitor that chooses to keep the Inquisition in Trespasser.

 

His/her people have bitter memories of what the Chantry does with military power. Leliana/Cassandra is trustworthy, but who knows what the next Divine will do with this force at her disposal?

Present. For one thing, she plans on getting the Inquisition to disband at some point before Leliana dies. Secondly, she believes she needs the Inquisition's resources to try to find an alternative plan for Solas. Thirdly, Leliana's reforms might require armed backing.

[BansheeOwnage]

Right, but in context of BioWare and storyline, if they make a storyline that debunks claims about the Maker or even Andraste, then it does in essence disprove the existence of "The Maker" as a character. There could still be some divine creator being, but it would not have the characteristics of the Maker.

Well, they already did that by revealing the Fen'Harel raised the veil, and that the material and fade were one in the same beforehand.

 

Tangentially, I really do hope it is made public or at least handled quickly for the player.

 

I think it will be frustrating if we have to interact with Dalish characters who don't know, while controlling a protagonist who doesn't know, while we have the meta-knowledge of it. So either I hope the DA4 protagonist knows (or finds out early) and can choose to tell the Dalish they encounter, or the Dalish already have that information.

I've really had enough of forcing our character to not reveal earth-shattering (literally) discoveries to the general public after The Descent. That was a crime against roleplaying. If the same thing happens with the revelations about Solas, the elvhen, the Evanuris, the veil, etc. I'll be pissed

 

The Crossroads doesn't seem to be the only place eluvians can go.  OGB Kieran was able to use Morrigan's eluvian to enter the Fade and meet Flemeth, after all.

 

So I guess it's theoretically possible Tamlen accessed a way to the Primeval Thaig, the Blackened City, even a blighted Titan, maybe.

The fact that our party seems to travel directly to Skyhold at the end of WPHW supports the theory that you don't have to go to the Crossroads (they flail out of it, still sprinting from the escape). That said, I'm not sure how seriously we can take that scene considering the other massive timing errors there.

 

 

 

Anyway my guess is  there is something in the Golden City , I imagine it is the "Sun" or the "Maker"...there is some hints in ancient elven lore and images , the elves might have put the sun in there.

It's possible it is the fade itself which is corrupted in that place.

Again there's some hints in the lore , Chants of Light and the prophecy of Elani whatever , the city is somekind of prison with seven gates , and some of them are already destroyed.

 

Anyway I imagine the city was at one point far less dangerous but our friends the Evanuris did somethind stupid which prompted Solas to create the veil , then the humans from Tevinter picked up the torches of stupidity.

And if the Old Gods are the seals of the Golden City ....well someone better find a solution for the 2 Old Gods left.

That would explain why Solas was so angry at the Wardens for wanting to kill the remaining Old Gods, and also why Flemythal wanted so badly to preserve one. Although it seems like Solas will have to face them again in some manner anyway.

 

 

Speaking of eluvians, I wonder if Tamlen's dialogue was supposed to mean something.

"It is showing me places. I can see some kind of city... underground? And there is a great blackness.

It saw me! Help, I can't look away!"

First of all, why would touching it send images into your mind? How could he see the Black City if the eluvians are connected to the Crossroads and not the Fade?

Also, he said something saw him. What could it be?

Hmm... I like the theory that the Black City is what's left of Arlathan, but what you just quoted suggests it might instead be an ancient dwarven city, perhaps the first one that was ravaged by the blight. That would be consistent with the blight coming from the Void (if it's in the deep), and also Solas' propaganda about the Evanuris unearthing something that could destroy them all. It would also make it fitting that the Old Gods are buried in the Deep Roads, especially if they really are "keys" to the City.

 

From the Codex entry "The Black City"

 

The Chant teaches that the Black City was once the seat of the Maker, from whence He ruled the Fade, left empty when men turned away from Him. Dreamers do not go there, nor do spirits. Even the most powerful demons seem to avoid the place.

 

The text is supposed to be from a book called "Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel

I think that here, "dreamers" simply refers to anyone who dreams, rather than Somniari. For what it's worth, WoT V2 also says it can be used to refer to either kind.

 

Anyway, I think it's important to note that the Black City only seems equidistant to people dreaming. It seems perfectly possible to find it and move towards it while physically in the fade, which is how the Sidereal Magisters got there. So it's another perception thing.

[Hellion Rex]

Well, they already did that by revealing the Fen'Harel raised the veil, and that the material and fade were one in the same beforehand.

I've really had enough of forcing our character to not reveal earth-shattering (literally) discoveries to the general public after The Descent. That was a crime against roleplaying. If the same thing happens with the revelations about Solas, the elvhen, the Evanuris, the veil, etc. I'll be pissed

The fact that our party seems to travel directly to Skyhold at the end of WPHW supports the theory that you don't have to go to the Crossroads (they flail out of it, still sprinting from the escape). That said, I'm not sure how seriously we can take that scene considering the other massive timing errors there.


That would explain why Solas was so angry at the Wardens for wanting to kill the remaining Old Gods, and also why Flemythal wanted so badly to preserve one. Although it seems like Solas will have to face them again in some manner anyway.


Hmm... I like the theory that the Black City is what's left of Arlathan, but what you just quoted suggests it might instead be an ancient dwarven city, perhaps the first one that was ravaged by the blight. That would be consistent with the blight coming from the Void (if it's in the deep), and also Solas' propaganda about the Evanuris unearthing something that could destroy them all. It would also make it fitting that the Old Gods are buried in the Deep Roads, especially if they really are "keys" to the City.

I think that here, "dreamers" simply refers to anyone who dreams, rather than Somniari. For what it's worth, WoT V2 also says it can be used to refer to either kind.

Anyway, I think it's important to note that the Black City only seems equidistant to people dreaming. It seems perfectly possible to find it and move towards it while physically in the fade, which is how the Sidereal Magisters got there. So it's another perception thing.

I don't agree with the whole Arlathan bit of theory, however I do agree that the normal rules go out the window in terms of the equidistant thing and the Black City when traveling there physically. When you through the rift at Adamant physically Solas does say that the Black City is much closer to them than normal.

[The Ascendant]

Did the Elves create Dragons or did they exist beforehand. As we've seen with the story of Ghin'hanin creating creatures and monsters is not beyond them.

[Hellion Rex]

Did the Elves create Dragons or did they exist beforehand. As we've seen with the story of Ghin'hanin creating creatures and monsters is not beyond them.

Good question, but I do think dragons existed long before. The Evanuris modeled "the divine shape" after them and held them as sacred, with none but the Evanuris being allowed to shapeshift into one. To me at least, it would seem odd if the dragons were an artificial creation and yet be placed on such a high pedestal.

[The Ascendant]

Good question, but I do think dragons existed long before. The Evanuris modeled "the divine shape" after them and held them as sacred, with none but the Evanuris being allowed to shapeshift into one. To me at least, it would seem odd if the dragons were an artificial creation and yet be placed on such a high pedestal.

I suppose for the Ancient Elves Dragons are to them as Lions were to Ancient Humans, apex predators worthy of respect, admiration and in some cases worship.

[Dai Grepher]

Well, they already did that by revealing the Fen'Harel raised the veil, and that the material and fade were one in the same beforehand.

Well the Chant of Light states that the Fade came first, and that the Real was created by the Maker who pulled energy from the Fade to make the Real. So there is no contradiction there.

As for the Veil, we have only been presented with the possibility that Solas created the Veil. There is no evidence that he did. More likely, Solas is mistaken, and he merely discovered the Veil and figured out how to manipulate it in a way so that it covered the elvhen kingdoms that existed within the Crossroads. I think the evidence points to the Veil being there, but gaps existing in the Veil where the Fade and Real meshed. That is where the elvhen built their structures. Solas merely closed those gaps, he didn't create the Veil.

A memory in the Vir Dirthara shows a spirit giving a lecture on how to cast magic in the Real world, and it tells those listening that the Real isn't like the Fade. So this indicates that the Fade and the Real were separate in some respect even before Solas interfered.

[BansheeOwnage]

As for the Veil, we have only been presented with the possibility that Solas created the Veil. There is no evidence that he did. More likely, Solas is mistaken, and he merely discovered the Veil and figured out how to manipulate it in a way so that it covered the elvhen kingdoms that existed within the Crossroads. I think the evidence points to the Veil being there, but gaps existing in the Veil where the Fade and Real meshed. That is where the elvhen built their structures. Solas merely closed those gaps, he didn't create the Veil.

A memory in the Vir Dirthara shows a spirit giving a lecture on how to cast magic in the Real world, and it tells those listening that the Real isn't like the Fade. So this indicates that the Fade and the Real were separate in some respect even before Solas interfered.

And I think I'm just going ignore your posts again.

[Dai Grepher]

Fine, but there's still no evidence that Solas created the Veil.

[Gervaise]

It would help this discussion if we knew exactly what the Veil is.    Various hypotheses have been put forward in game by the inhabitants of Thedas who have studied the Fade and the Veil.    However, unless Solas is mistaken as to what he actually did, it would seem that the Veil as some form of barrier between the Fade and Thedas was the result of his action. 

 

I think it is clear from the memories in Trespasser that there were always two states of existence that formed the world of the elves but, as Solas claimed at the beginning of DAI, there was no barrier between the two that would prevent passage from one to the other.      When the Elgar'nan banished the Forbidden Ones it was from the lands of the Evanuris that bordered the Fade but he acknowledged there was nothing to prevent them from passing over if they wished, which is why their followers were warned against them.

 

Technically this information does not disprove the Creation Myth detailed in the Chant.   According to that there was the Fade and it was from this that everything in the material world originated.   The Maker set it apart as distinct from the Fade but the early part of the Chant does not actually mention the Veil; it is merely implied.   In any case there is clearly something missing from the account since only humans are mentioned and of course they only appeared in Thedas around the time that Solas took his action.    One wonders if the Maker originally mentioned the elves in his visions to Andraste but that was expunged from the Chant, like the Canticle of Shartan, or never made it in to the final version that was adopted by the Chantry because by then it had been forgotten by the humans followers as not important to their history.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Well the Chant of Light states that the Fade came first, and that the Real was created by the Maker who pulled energy from the Fade to make the Real. So there is no contradiction there.

 

Agree with this part. Maker isn't disproven just yet. In fact, it seems to fall in line with reality if the whole "elves were originally spirits" thing is right.

 

Technically this information does not disprove the Creation Myth detailed in the Chant.   According to that there was the Fade and it was from this that everything in the material world originated.   The Maker set it apart as distinct from the Fade but the early part of the Chant does not actually mention the Veil; it is merely implied.   In any case there is clearly something missing from the account since only humans are mentioned and of course they only appeared in Thedas around the time that Solas took his action.    One wonders if the Maker originally mentioned the elves in his visions to Andraste but that was expunged from the Chant, like the Canticle of Shartan, or never made it in to the final version that was adopted by the Chantry because by then it had been forgotten by the humans followers as not important to their history.

 

Doesn't the Chant simply say "men" or "children of the maker" or something? Since its believed everything is made by the Maker and all people are his children in that sense, those terms don't actually exclude any of the 4 spoken races we've seen so far. It never specifies humanity.

[Reznore57]

 

 

Doesn't the Chant simply say "men" or "children of the maker" or something? Since its believed everything is made by the Maker and all people are his children in that sense, those terms don't actually exclude any of the 4 spoken races we've seen so far. It never specifies humanity.

 

I can't remember the details , but I think only the dwarves stand apart.

I know Wynne makes a comment to Oghren  :dwarves aren't children of the Maker , and it's possible the Chantry believe that too because in the Chant of Light , it is said the Maker gave dreams to his children so they could visit him every night or something.

With dwarves having no dreams they might be seen as apart from the Maker creation .

Although of course it is never really explored anywhere in game or codex (except Wynne comment) as far as I can remember , so who knows?

[Gervaise]

It does simply refer to the second born as "men", "Immutable, as the substance of the earth".   Which could be said to apply any of the races.    However, it then goes on to say: "With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear", and later that "to the Fade you shall return each night in dreams", which does seem to rule out dwarves because they are known not to dream or enter the Fade in their minds.     However, there is a hint in Trespasser that it may be through their link to the Titans (the Stone) that dwarves are denied their link to the Fade and that Mythal, in defeating the Titan, gave them dreams.   So whilst it is difficult to see how the Titans fit into the Chant, it is possible that the dwarves originally did have both dreams and magic  but somehow lost it because of the Titans, unless of course you believe that they are the children of the Titans, in which case where does the Maker fit in?

 

The reference to "men" could mean elves as well as humans but clearly the Chantry have always chosen to interpret it as humans only.    The words about being enticed away from worship of the Maker to powerful spirits could also apply to the early elves except all the references to the sort of gods being worshipped were clearly directed towards the old gods of Tevinter.   So unless the Evanuris and the old gods are one and the same, there really is a big gap in the history of the world as detailed in the Chant.   That is one of my big problems now with Chant as it relates to history.   Most of what is recounted there only really applies to the last 3000 years of human history and totally ignores 4500 years of elven history that preceded it.    Andraste having a focus on human history is understandable but not the Maker if he was truly recounting the history of his abandonment by his creation.

[In Exile]

I'm fairly sure that the human scholar explained that his theory was not that Fen'Harel didn't mean the Dread Wolf, but that the Dalish conception of him as a god of betrayal would probably be better translated as a god of rebellion? He also points out that the word the Dalish use for him didn't appear before the Towers Age, so I think the implication was that the Dalish Elves' straightforward evil version of the Dread Wolf was a relatively modern idea. He says that the original story of Fen'Harel "may well have given him more nuanced motivation than spite." And since the elvish word for betrayal only appeared after the Clans were scattered from Halamshiral, perhaps the elves of the Dales actually knew a legend where he was the god of rebellion.

That's quite literally what Solas does - it makes perfect sense he would be seen as a rebel figure (and a god, for opposing the Evanuris). And remember the elves do seem to know what he did -after all, their myth does get his role sort of right in trapping the gods. So it's not hard to see his name would become a curse.

[In Exile]

The Library was in the Fade, the Fade is constructed entirely by thought. If there is anywhere where concepts would be communicated past a language barrier it would be a Fade Library.

Everything was "in" the Fade for the elves. And the library isn't exactly in the Fade. The Liberian explained that pretty clearly.

[In Exile]

Then the question becomes, why hasn't it spread since?

For one, it doesn't look like the Magisters actually breached the Golden City. They got inside, and they got tainted like Tamlen (hint hint) and they landed outside the Fade, but none of that actually means they physically broke the walls of the golden city. Maybe it got a new paint job because of what happened on the inside - like how spilling ink on one side of a shirt stains the outside.

[In Exile]

Solas heavily implies that all elves were mages.

He says Thedas now is like a world full of Tranquil to him.

Solas says all elves were mages, and their magic was part and parcel of their nature, like immortality.

What Solas hints at is that the elves were a different kind of being - remember, tranquil don't just have no magic, they have no emotion (mostly). They've lot out on an entire dimension of human existence.

[In Exile]

Did the Elves create Dragons or did they exist beforehand. As we've seen with the story of Ghin'hanin creating creatures and monsters is not beyond them.

The other disciple of Mythal - Yavana - apparently says that dragons used to rule, and alludes to basically the pre-Veil time of the Evanuris. Most of the evidence we see suggests dragons (perhaps not the kind we see) are a part of the world order.

[In Exile]

Fine, but there's still no evidence that Solas created the Veil.

You mean, apart from him literally telling you he did it? Direct testimony is evidence.

[Hellion Rex]

Fine, but there's still no evidence that Solas created the Veil.

Um, except he said he did, and the Librarians said he did too...

[Qun00]

You know what I don't understand? Pol never gets his vallaslin.

We meet him again three years later in DA2's act 2 (Merrill's quest) and the poor guy still isn't a fully fledged Dalish elf.

[Vit246]

Some elves are just born to be flat-ears. He's like the retarded cousin you pity. The thug life didn't choose him.

Modifié par Vit246, 28 juin 2016 - 02:05 .

[Qun00]

Just as their mere arrival brought a quickening to the People's blood, the prolonged exposure the flat ears endure leads to other shemlen diseases.