Some flat-ears are just born to be flat-ears. He's like the retarded cousin you pity. The thug life didn't choose him.
Just as their mere arrival brought a quickening to the People's blood, the prolonged exposure the flat ears endure leads to other shemlen diseases.
....
Yeah, no. I'm sure its just a matter of him not having become a full-fledged hunter, or some other role, yet. He's a city boy, after all. Learning archery or other survival skills to the point Dalish elves his own age have mastered them takes time.
They were likely Dreamer mages, just very powerful ones, but since we do not know the exact nature of these original ancient elves before the Veil, they could have been a class of mage that no longer exists. They were not mistaken for gods, however. Solas makes it very clear. They started out as generals in a war, against whom is not clear, and having been successful leaders in war time, they then became respected elders in peace time, each likely with their own area of expertise in which they advised other elves. Each acquired their own faction of followers who likely held similar interests. As time passed they started being regarded as more than first among equals but superior to the general masses, in other words lords and kings. It would appear that they amassed more followers in their service and started to mark those as having allegiance to them, probably to prevent others trying to poach them away. More time passed and presumably those original "First" of the people acquired greater and greater knowledge over time, so much so that they seemed far above the majority and simple service turned to worship. The degree of deference for them may have been demanded by the Evanuris as the price for their patronage and protection. The favoured ones became their priesthood, the rest their slaves. However, some objected to this worship and refused to give it; chief among them were the Forgotten Ones and latterly Fen'Harel.
Were the Evanuris Dreamer mages or were they a special class of mage in of themselves, you know being powerful enough to be mistaken for Gods.
They were likely Dreamer mages, just very powerful ones, but since we do not know the exact nature of these original ancient elves before the Veil, they could have been a class of mage that no longer exists. They were not mistaken for gods, however. Solas makes it very clear. They started out as generals in a war, against whom is not clear, and having been successful leaders in war time, they then became respected elders in peace time, each likely with their own area of expertise in which they advised other elves. Each acquired their own faction of followers who likely held similar interests. As time passed they started being regarded as more than first among equals but superior to the general masses, in other words lords and kings. It would appear that they amassed more followers in their service and started to mark those as having allegiance to them, probably to prevent others trying to poach them away. More time passed and presumably those original "First" of the people acquired greater and greater knowledge over time, so much so that they seemed far above the majority and simple service turned to worship. The degree of deference for them may have been demanded by the Evanuris as the price for their patronage and protection. The favoured ones became their priesthood, the rest their slaves. However, some objected to this worship and refused to give it; chief among them were the Forgotten Ones and latterly Fen'Harel.
It's certainly possible that in a world mixed with Fade, worship actually conferred an extra degree of power upon the Evanuris. Magic has the power to shape reality and bend what is normally unchanging. If enough mages (and possibly non-mages) were to believe in the divine nature of the Evanuris, why couldn't that affect the Evanuris and make their godly nature a true reality?
They're still able to be murdered in their supposedly godly form, so I don't think they have a "godly nature". And personally I just don't adhere to a definition of god that considers it something you can evolve into. To me they're just powerful mages. In the pre-veil world, did belief and worship fuel and increase their power? Probably.
But believing something doesn't make it so. Just look at how many people believed Andraste had been the woman who helped us out of the Fade, whether you object or not. Even in a pre-veil world, it wouldn't have changed what happened. There are limits to how much perception changes reality and in what ways. I think true apotheosis is beyond the realm of possibility, though the appearance of it can be cultivated if one sets their mind to it.
They're still able to be murdered in their supposedly godly form, so I don't think they have a "godly nature". And personally I just don't adhere to a definition of god that considers it something you can evolve into. To me they're just powerful mages. In the pre-veil world, did belief and worship fuel and increase their power? Probably.
But believing something doesn't make it so. Just look at how many people believed Andraste had been the woman who helped us out of the Fade, whether you object or not. Even in a pre-veil world, it wouldn't have changed what happened. There are limits to how much perception changes reality and in what ways. I think true apotheosis is beyond the realm of possibility, though the appearance of it can be cultivated if one sets their mind to it.
But in a world mixed with the bendable Fade, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to have belief, even a false one, shape reality. This is also a world with high levels of magic beyond that of a modern day Thedas. I'd argue that the normal rules of what apply would almost go out the window.
And technically, none of them have been murdered. They tried with Mythal, but it didn't quite stick lol. And I'm not saying that they truly had a "godly" nature, but people's belief in them might have made them into more than what they originally were.
But in a world mixed with the bendable Fade, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to have belief, even a false one, shape reality. This is also a world with high levels of magic beyond that of a modern day Thedas. I'd argue that the normal rules of what apply would almost go out the window.
And technically, none of them have been murdered. They tried with Mythal, but it didn't quite stick lol. And I'm not saying that they truly had a "godly" nature, but people's belief in them might have made them into more than what they originally were.
True. When you get rid of the veil its a matter of semantics, I suppose. Of course, that changeable nature might have been why Solas' claim they were not gods and the spreading it was an important part of his rebellion's propaganda. Not just to encourage people and give them hope the Evanuris could be taken down a peg, but the denial of their godlike powers actually might have been reducing them the more people believed it.
True. When you get rid of the veil its a matter of semantics, I suppose. Of course, that changeable nature might have been why Solas' claim they were not gods and the spreading it was an important part of his rebellion's propaganda. Not just to encourage people and give them hope the Evanuris could be taken down a peg, but the denial of their godlike powers actually might have been reducing them the more people believed it.
That's what I believe at least. Partially also because of Cole's line "worship makes you more" really stuck with me.
It's certainly possible that in a world mixed with Fade, worship actually conferred an extra degree of power upon the Evanuris. Magic has the power to shape reality and bend what is normally unchanging. If enough mages (and possibly non-mages) were to believe in the divine nature of the Evanuris, why couldn't that affect the Evanuris and make their godly nature a true reality?
I think it would make sense, especially if they were either spirits to begin with or had a bond with them. Spirits/demons definitely get more powerful from belief (like the Nightmare). So basically, the more powerful the Evanuris got, the more powerful they'd become.
They're still able to be murdered in their supposedly godly form, so I don't think they have a "godly nature". And personally I just don't adhere to a definition of god that considers it something you can evolve into. To me they're just powerful mages. In the pre-veil world, did belief and worship fuel and increase their power? Probably.
But believing something doesn't make it so. Just look at how many people believed Andraste had been the woman who helped us out of the Fade, whether you object or not. Even in a pre-veil world, it wouldn't have changed what happened. There are limits to how much perception changes reality and in what ways. I think true apotheosis is beyond the realm of possibility, though the appearance of it can be cultivated if one sets their mind to it.
I agree that they're not gods; that's spelled out for us. But I don't think being able to be killed necessarily means they can't be gods. It depends on what definition you use, but the Greek and Norse pantheons could be killed, for instance, and as has been stated, we still haven't seen an Evanuris actually die anyway.
Believing in something doesn't make it so, but it helps. The Avvar "gods" prove this, as well as lore on the fade and spirits. It does have limits like you say, and I think the most obvious one is that belief doesn't change the Material. Belief isn't going to change whether Andraste helped you or not though, that would be changing the past depending on belief. But something like making the Evanuris more powerful? I could see that, just like Hakkon.
Is Mythal "dead" dead? To me at least Solas pulled the same stunt she did on Kieran/Urthemiel, just more lethal.
That's what I think. He absorbed her abilities and drained what was left out of the body. I don't know what it was Flemeth sent through the mirror, but Solas got one hell of a power boost from the draining, if nothing else.
@Banshee I don't think it'd necessarily even require spiritual entities to be involved. The fact that the extremely malleable Fade was a living breathing part of reality might have been enough all on its own.
Is Mythal "dead" dead? To me at least Solas pulled the same stunt she did on Kieran/Urthemiel, just more lethal.
According to the dev notes on that scene that people found (which might be changed later, so treat as semi-canon);
Flemeth knew that Solas was coming to take her power and intentionally sacrificed her current vessel to him. However, she sent the essence of Mythal through the Eluvian first, intending for Morrigan to inherit the mantle from her.
So Mythal is still alive, but the (current) Flemeth is dead.
(I say current because "Flemeth" seems to be an inherited title, passed down to the next vessel carrying the essence of Mythal.)
Does that mean that Solas can command whoever drank the well?
I don't think so. I think he gained her raw abilities, her raw magic, but not the geas and whatever other feats that came from the being known as Mythal.
I think that's what she sent to Morrigan through the Eluvian. To an extent, that could be a way to benefit a Morrigan that didn't drink from the Well. If she sent Mythal's Essence or godhood, or whatever you want to call it through the Eluvian, then perhaps all the knowledge that was attached to the Well got sent to her as well.
I was always curious regarding Mythal/Flemeth's end goal. How could she avenge herself on the Evanuris? They are trapped in the Fade, but she doesn't seem to have problems entering it. Did she want to bring back the magic with her whole Dragon preservation site and Morrigan's Old God Baby? She doesn't give a crap about the Elves, at most she tolerates and humors them. She spent, what six, seven hundred years only to die near the end, all so she could have a daughter who finally got the courage to stand up to her and then what? And I thought people were complex, never mind ancient Elven demigods.
I was always curious regarding Mythal/Flemeth's end goal. How could she avenge herself on the Evanuris? They are trapped in the Fade, but she doesn't seem to have problems entering it. Did she want to bring back the magic with her whole Dragon preservation site and Morrigan's Old God Baby? She doesn't give a crap about the Elves, at most she tolerates and humors them. She spent, what six, seven hundred years only to die near the end, all so she could have a daughter who finally got the courage to stand up to her and then what? And I thought people were complex, never mind ancient Elven demigods.
Mythal's end goal was revenge, and Flemeth was merely helping her do so. "...and I will see her avenged!"
Flemeth's role in this so called grand game may have ended, but my guess is that Mythal's gambit has yet to reach its ultimate conclusion and only now has she really started.
Entering the Fade and attempting to breach the Evanuris's prison are two very different feats. I don't think Solas would have locked them away if it was easy to open the prison door on the inside of the outside.
As for bringing back the magic of what was, I have no idea. She seems to eschew this plan and says as much to Morrigan who does revere and wish to preserve the ancient magics. Flemeth and Mythal seem much more bitter about it.
As for the dragons and the OGB, I would argue that the woman probably has multiple contingencies and avenues of power that could be taken, and so that's all the Silent Grove and Kieran were. Options, plans, and contingencies.
On a different note, I always feel bad when I do the Dalish origin.
If you are worried about Tamlen, you should look for Merrill and go to the cave immediately instead of engaging in idle chatter with anyone.
But I can't help it. It just seems like I'm wasting the origin's content by skipping those interactions.
I know it's not exactly how the concept is intended, but story/gameplay segregation? lol
We have confirmation Merrill's eluvian leads to the crossroads? Last thing I heard about it was that Merrill cleansed it, but couldn't activate it.
Well, Merrill technically created her Eluvian from a shard she took from the one in Ferelden and lore she studied about the ancient Eluvians (as well as information she extrapolated from the shard she took), and we do see a counterpart to Merrill's Eluvian in the Crossroads (the one that looks exactly like hers).
You can view pictures of the Crossroads Eluvian counterpart here.
It does disappoint me that Merrill didn't appear in Inquisition - given her studies into Eluvian lore, especially as Lavellan really has no one who truly understands him (given how a majority of the people around you are Andrastian). It's a very isolating experience, especially given how you're consistently denigrated when your culture or religion does come up.
Yeah, I am just going stop trying to decipher the plots and schemes of ancient Elven Mages, normal people are complicated enough for me thank you.
Lol, it does always seem as if there a bunch of different, multi-layered plans in play at the moment. It is fascinating, but certainly confusing as all hell.
It would help this discussion if we knew exactly what the Veil is. Various hypotheses have been put forward in game by the inhabitants of Thedas who have studied the Fade and the Veil. However, unless Solas is mistaken as to what he actually did, it would seem that the Veil as some form of barrier between the Fade and Thedas was the result of his action.
I don't understand your rationale for that. He could be mistaken, or he could be lying. Regardless of his accuracy, whatever he did might not have any connection to the Veil's creation. If the Veil is a magical vibration that repels the Fade, or if it is merely a state of mind that blocks connection to the Fade, it is unlikely that Solas' spell could affect all of creation. The Orb of Destruction when used by Corypheus only created a breach that was roughly a mile in diameter. That was with the orb being powered up. And again when Corypheus had powered it up with red lyrium he reopened the same breach. This action was to tear down the Veil in one location. Tearing something down is easier than casting it, especially with the Veil, as we've seen in Origins. Blood magic, or even much death can weaken or tear the Veil. Repairing it is more difficult. It requires a mage or spirit with knowledge of such things (Avernus, Sophia's Shade, Justice). So for Solas to have created the Veil it would have required much more than just his orb, or any number of orbs. The idea that Solas created a magical vibration that never decays on its own and cast it over all of creation is just absurd. It is much more believable that he discovered how to manipulate the Veil, and did so within the relatively smaller network of the Crossroads, thus closing off the elvhen kingdoms from the Fade.
We should also keep in mind that the Veil can be torn and mended by present-day mages. So it isn't like its a stretch to see Solas as just another mage who can do the same thing, just on a larger scale, with the Fall being a mending process that brings the Veil together in the gaps that were the Crossroads.
I think it is clear from the memories in Trespasser that there were always two states of existence that formed the world of the elves but, as Solas claimed at the beginning of DAI, there was no barrier between the two that would prevent passage from one to the other.
That Solas knew of. My impression was that Solas believed in only two existences, the Fade and the Crossroads, with the Real being part of the Crossroads. So for him and other elvhen, no there was no barrier between the Fade and the "World" that was the Crossroads dimension. However, my observation is that to have a "crossroad" you need two paths, the Fade and the Real. The Crossroads is where they intersected. So in fact, and what the memories indicated to me, is that there were three distinct states of existence known to that world; the Fade, the Crossroads, and the Real. The Crossroads and the Real would have to be separate in order for the Spirit in the memory to be correct. It said that the real world has its own harmony and pull. Spells of power invite disaster. So clearly there was a state of existence like the one we commonly see in Thedas today, and this was before the Vir Dirthara fell.
My theory is this (skip if you don't care to read):
Spoiler
1. The Fade is a realm of spirits and idea, where only the most knowledgeable elvhen mages and spirits could roam. For example, the old gods, the higher ranking evanuris like Elgar'nan, Mythal, Falon'Din, the Forgotten Ones, later Andruil and Fen'Harel, allegedly Dirthamen needed Fear and Deceit to help him navigate the shifting paths of the Fade, and also the Forbidden Ones who were said to have given up physical form to go there.
2. The Crossroads was a realm of idea and matter. Here, thought could be given form. Magic readily poured from the Fade, and the creations within this realm depended on that flow. Matter could be created and shifted by spirits through thought, and likewise by physical beings via magic. Spirits could interact with physical brings freely. The Crossroads could be seen in the sky, and touched the surface of the Earth, which is why many elvhen temples can be seen on the surface. However, the Crossroads did not extend to much further below the surface. The Crossroads also had horizontal boundaries. This is where the Veil comes into play. At the edge of a Crossroads area was a place where the magic was blocked. This is where the Veil existed.
3. The Real is a realm in which spirits cannot easily cross into, just as physical beings cannot easily cross into the Fade. In the days of Arlathan it was a place in which the Veil existed to block the energies of the Fade. As a result, magic was more difficult to use here, and required different methods. The real world has its own rules, and things function differently there. Any spirit that managed to exist there could not change the world with thought as it could in the Fade or the Crossroads. This area made up most of the world, I believe. It was within these parts of the world that humans existed. Those who discovered the Crossroads were likely confused by that state of existence, and so most humans probably avoided it. Additionally, the Veil was also present beneath the surface within the dwarven kingdoms.
Another state of existence that might exist is perhaps the Void. My current theory on this is that the Void exists in the Fade and in a way it also exists in the Real. The Void in the Fade could be the black abyss we see, or it could be the "emerald waters". The Void in the Real could be lyrium. This is likely what gave rise to the Anvil of the Void. Anyway, where the Crossroads is more of a bridge between the Fade and the Real, the Void is more like a two-way street of destruction and rebirth. The souls or spirits who are destroyed within the Fade for whatever reason, enter the dark Void or the waters and come out the other side as wisps. Fade energy also enters this Void and comes out the other side as magical energy. These magics fuse with the stone deep beneath the surface, and become lyrium. The wisps of spirits may also become trapped in the lyrium. So this would also represent the Void, in my opinion. When enough lyrium manifests, and enough spirit wisps and/or souls enter a particular cluster of lyrium, it can give rise to a titan, which I believe is a collective consciousness. It is similar to how the Well of Sorrows is a collective of memories and thoughts.
As this relates to Solas, I think the memory of the spirit giving the lecture proves that there were at least three states of existence, and Solas seems to only be aware of two of them, thinking that the Crossroads and the Real were one and the same. However, I think Solas is ignorant of many things, and he doesn't know what he doesn't know. He probably genuinely believes he created the Veil, but in reality he merely discovered such a thing was possible and decided to unleash that type of magic on the world that he knew, not knowing that the world outside his little bubble had been living under those conditions for ages.
When the Elgar'nan banished the Forbidden Ones it was from the lands of the Evanuris that bordered the Fade but he acknowledged there was nothing to prevent them from passing over if they wished, which is why their followers were warned against them.
Right, but that was in relation to the Fade, not the real. The Forbidden Ones existed in the Crossroads in physical form, and they abandoned those forms to go to the Fade where the "Earth" (probably the titans) could not reach them. They did not flee to the Real world, and yet many centuries after the Fall, we see three of the Forbidden Ones present within the Real world. So their banishment had nothing to do with the Real world, other than to escape it.
Technically this information does not disprove the Creation Myth detailed in the Chant. According to that there was the Fade and it was from this that everything in the material world originated. The Maker set it apart as distinct from the Fade but the early part of the Chant does not actually mention the Veil; it is merely implied.
Are you sure? I thought the Veil was mentioned within the same story of the real world's creation. Though I agree that the nature of the Veil and its structure were not detailed, but I thought it was mentioned at least.
In any case there is clearly something missing from the account since only humans are mentioned and of course they only appeared in Thedas around the time that Solas took his action. One wonders if the Maker originally mentioned the elves in his visions to Andraste but that was expunged from the Chant, like the Canticle of Shartan, or never made it in to the final version that was adopted by the Chantry because by then it had been forgotten by the humans followers as not important to their history.
If the Maker mentioned elves to Andraste, she would have told others, and I see no reason for them to dismiss what she said. They followed her directive in setting the elves free and giving them their own lands.
I haven't worked out all the details in my mind yet, but its possible that the Chant and the history of Elvhenan are consistent...
Spoiler
Perhaps, and this is merely speculation at this point, maybe those before the first evanuris were among the Maker's first children. So, the old gods, the predecessors of Elgar'nan and Mythal and those who would later become the elvhen, and a bunch of other spirits. These spirits were not creative, and merely broke things and moved them around randomly. So the Maker pulled energy from the Fade to make the Real, then cast the Veil to separate the two, but he allowed gaps in the Veil so that the first children and second children could commune and learn from each other.
This is where the spirits grew jealous, or felt spurned by their creator. So these spirits turned into demons. These spirits began to turn the elvhen away from the Maker, and the old gods also began to turn mortals away from the Maker. This caused the Maker to grow angry with them and shut the doors of the Golden City. He also imprisoned the old gods in the Deep Roads. He may have also done something to the predecessors of the evanuris. Perhaps the Maker created the titans to turn against them. But of course this just allowed Elgar'nan to enter the scene and claim the mantle. He came up with his own story about defeating his father, one of the first children, and in so doing being one who is credited with most of creation. Or maybe he really did defeat his father, just spirit vs. spirit, not "god" vs. the Sun. Mythal follows suit, and they become a pair. They beget their own elvhen, Falon'Din and Dirthamen. And so on. In any event, the Maker is forgotten except among the Neromenians who had always held the theory of his existence. However, the humans have little to no interaction with the elvhen.
Then eventually the evanuris started warring with each other, the titans awoke and Mythal had to step in. Eventually she started getting too powerful, so the other evanuris ganged up on her. Solas didn't like that, but I guess that wasn't quite enough for him to actually "create" the Veil. According to him, his action was in response to the evanuris and something they would have done that would have destroyed the entire world. So Solas closes all the gaps, which he thinks is how the world is everywhere because of his limited perspective, and thus the Veil was made solid.
Then the Neromenians move in to the now "safe" areas where the Crossroads once existed, and they loot the corpse of Elvhenan for magic and knowledge. They probably rewrote many things to reflect a history more suited to their preferences and hubris. Then from here the Magisters Sidereal invade the Golden City, get cast back down, and history becomes more clear at this point.
The only thing I haven't worked out is why the mural in the Vir Dirthara seems to depict the Black City. Maybe that represents something else, like Elgar'nan, or maybe the Magisters Sidereal were part of the reason why the world was going to be destroyed, and why Solas felt he needed to act. In the later case, the sequence of events would be different from what historic accounts claim. Either could be true, especially considering that the spirits and the evanuris felt the flow of time differently than humans.
Of course it's also possible that Solas' story is mostly poorly remembered hogwash. His stated reasons for sealing away the evanuris are conflicting. Did he do it to punish them for killing Mythal, or did he do it to prevent them from destroying the world? Do the first of Solas' people not die so easily, or did the evanuris truly kill Mythal? Either Solas was confused even then, or Trespasser's storyline was poorly written. Probably just the later.
Chantry believe that too because in the Chant of Light , it is said the Maker gave dreams to his children so they could visit him every night or something. With dwarves having no dreams they might be seen as apart from the Maker creation . Although of course it is never really explored anywhere in game or codex (except Wynne comment) as far as I can remember , so who knows?
Also, Oghren mentions that he had a dream about Branka during Awakening. Maybe that was because of the taint.
You mean, apart from him literally telling you he did it? Direct testimony is evidence.
And Solas has never lied or been mistaken before.
Um, except he said he did, and the Librarians said he did too...
That just means it's a claim. Consider the possibility that the Veil existed with gaps. The Vir Dirthara existed in one of these gaps. Solas manipulated the Veil to close these gaps. From his perspective and to those in the gaps, it would appear to them that a Veil was cast on them, when in reality it was merely closed on them. Like how the people of Old Crestwood suddenly had rising water levels drown them, yet the Mayor did not actually create the water himself.
Does that mean that Solas can command whoever drank the well?
No. Otherwise he would have commanded the Inquisitor to tear down the Veil.
I was always curious regarding Mythal/Flemeth's end goal. How could she avenge herself on the Evanuris? They are trapped in the Fade, but she doesn't seem to have problems entering it. Did she want to bring back the magic with her whole Dragon preservation site and Morrigan's Old God Baby? She doesn't give a crap about the Elves, at most she tolerates and humors them. She spent, what six, seven hundred years only to die near the end, all so she could have a daughter who finally got the courage to stand up to her and then what? And I thought people were complex, never mind ancient Elven demigods.
They are trapped in their own Crossroads dimensions. There is no way to get to them, nor can they get out. Solas' plan to tear down the Veil (or at least parts of it), will allow the evanuris to be freed, at which time Mythal will likely attack them. So for now, Solas' misguided plan serves Mythal's interests, even if he doesn't realize it.
Either the old gods betrayed her too, or she needs their power to forward her plan to kill the evanuris back.
It isn't that she doesn't care about the elves. She does in fact help them and use them in her own ways. I believe she plans to protect the current day elves when "the skies will open wide" and Solas reopens parts of the Veil in his attempt to tear the whole thing down. She may have imparted such knowledge to a chosen few. Or perhaps all the disappearing elves at the end of Trespasser are actually answering Mythal's call, and not Solas'. If so, then I would say she is the only one acting like a true ageless being. She has been tending various projects patiently for centuries or longer, while Solas seems to want everything to happen quickly. He doesn't plan anything out. He simply reacts to everything.
Some flat-ears are just born to be flat-ears. He's like the retarded cousin you pity. The thug life didn't choose him.
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