1605 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

(Didn't get to comment on this bit before the forums went wonky on me, so new post! )

 

I only meant Qun00's statement that you can't join a clan without adhering to Creator worship is probably right. I don't think he's right to hate on Merrill as vehemently as he does. And, regardless, that slave helping thing was not a good example of the pridefulness Merrill displays.

 

Except being Dalish involves adhering to their culture and religion - so I don't see what the issue is. If you want to be Dalish, well, you're expected to become Dalish. It's like criticizing a real world religious group because they expect you to convert if you want to join - it simply doesn't make any sense.

 

It's not like the Dalish impose their way of life. Their way of life is entirely mandatory, and you can leave if you want to. Anytime. Zevran's mother left, Zevran even left when he joined a clan for a brief time, Arianni left, Velanna left, Merrill left - you're not forced to stay. It's a hard life, after all.

 

Considering how the elven religion was outlawed by the Chantry and the clans face threats from human society - from lords and lynch mobs who attack them if they stay too long in one area to bandits that might consist of humans and elves (like the one that killed Mahariel's father) and even templars (like when Ariane protected her clan from a templar) - they need to be cautious. They're not trying to be an all-out pan-elven movement; they're simply trying to be Dalish.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Except being Dalish involves adhering to their culture and religion - so I don't see what the issue is. If you want to be Dalish, well, you're expected to become Dalish. It's like criticizing a real world religious group because they expect you to convert if you want to join - it simply doesn't make any sense.

Hence, why Qun00 is probably right when he says the Dalish make you convert to Creator worship if you join them. Which was my point. You seemed to be arguing that point before, so I said something. If we're actually in agreement, that's cool, too.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, Ameridan was friends with a man he'd seen invade other tribes and conquer them. Thus he'd probably be able to recognize if that same man was doing it to the Dalish or not. He didn't seem to think Drakon was trying to conquer the Dales.

 

Ameridan being friends with a conqueror, and converting to said conqueror's religion (he even talks about going to Andraste's side when he dies), doesn't make him unbiased in my book. It makes his opinions highly suspect. Especially when they involve Drakon.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Ameridan being friends with a conqueror, and converting to said conqueror's religion (he even talks about going to Andraste's side when he dies), doesn't make him unbiased in my book. It makes his opinions highly suspect. Especially when they involve Drakon.

Ameridan practiced synchrotism btwn the two religions and worshiped both the Creators and the Maker, not just Andrastianism. And I fail to see how his conversion would have anything to do with his assessment of Drakon as an ally to the Dales. One's a religious belief and one's an assessment of aid being rendered or not.

 

And you keep going on about how much of a conqueror he was and how horrible, but that's according to in-game 2nd hand sources and people examining his actions after the fact and attributing motives to him. Whereas Ameridan is someone who knew the man and lived the times. Its entirely possible we have a skewed version of what Drakon was actually like, just like history apparently thought Ameridan was a human sword and board warrior. Given the choice btwn the two, I'm trusting the live, primary source  of Ameridan with regards to Drakon's character over other options.

[LobselVith8]

Hence, why Qun00 is probably right when he says the Dalish make you convert to Creator worship if you join them. Which was my point. You seemed to be arguing that point before, so I said something. If we're actually in agreement, that's cool, too.

 

Except that the discussion was about Merrill saying that the Dalish could help elves who were trying to escape slavery from the Imperium, and Qun00 even attacked Merrill for making the suggestion. The same Merrill who takes it upon herself to take care of the elves who are left homeless and without protection during the war between mages and templars.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Except that the discussion was about Merrill saying that the Dalish could help elves who were trying to escape slavery from the Imperium, and Qun00 even attacked Merrill for making the suggestion. The same Merrill who takes it upon herself to take care of the elves who are left homeless and without protection during the war between mages and templars.

You're arguing me on a point I didn't make. I said Qun00 was right that the Dalish probably make you convert to Creator worship when you join their clan and gave my reasoning as to why. That's all I was talking about.

 

I'm not making Qun00's arguments for him regarding Merrill's character. As you've pointed out previously, that whole thing about Merrill saying the Dalish would take in runaway slaves somehow being a bad thing didn't even make any sense. I never claimed it did and wasn't arguing in support of it.

[LobselVith8]

Ameridan practiced synchrotism btwn the two religions and worshiped both the Creators and the Maker, not just Andrastianism. And I fail to see how his conversion would have anything to do with his assessment of Drakon as an ally to the Dales. One's a religious belief and one's an assessment of aid being rendered or not.

 

I address it because Drakon invaded his neighbors because he wanted to create an empire "under the worship of the Maker". Drakon being friends with a man who followed his religion and tolerating him isn't the same as tolerating an entire kingdom of men, women, and children who follow a different religion.

 

And you keep going on about how much of a conqueror he was and how horrible, but that's according to in-game 2nd hand sources and people examining his actions after the fact and attributing motives to him. Whereas Ameridan is someone who knew the man and lived the times. Its entirely possible we have a skewed version of what Drakon was actually like, just like history apparently thought Ameridan was a human sword and board warrior. Given the choice btwn the two, I'm trusting the live, primary source  of Ameridan with regards to Drakon's character over other options.

 

It's never contested that Drakon conquered his neighbors in religious wars - that's exactly how Orlais came to be. Drakon being nice to Andrastian convert Ameridan doesn't change that. And I bring it up because it's something to consider when you factor an entire nation of people who don't follow Drakon's religion, and Drakon's interest in expanding his empire and bringing people under the worship of the Maker (and let's not forget Amerian also makes note of Drakon's interest in bringing people to the Andrastian faith).

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

This conversation reminds me of another point I wanted to make.

 

Do we know that Ameridan was unusual in his worship of both the Maker and the Creators? I mean, the Dales elves were free and in the Dales b/c of Andraste and her relationship with Shartan, ultimately. I know they reinstated Creator worship while in the Dales, but do we have reason to believe a good portion of them didn't also adopt the faith of Andraste, simultaneously, like Ameridan? Was Ameridan alone in his beliefs? Was it Drakon that converted him or was he already like that, as perhaps his family before him had been as well? I mean, she was the reason their rebellion worked and there was a close alliance between her people and theirs initially. I don't think it'd be too far-fetched to think they adopted some customs while they sought to establish their own identity. And it just gradually went away as relations between the two peoples declined and people in the dales felt more and more inclined to define themselves as separate from the surrounding humans.

[LobselVith8]

You're arguing me on a point I didn't make. I said Qun00 was right that the Dalish probably make you convert to Creator worship when you join their clan and gave my reasoning as to why. That's all I was talking about.

 

My issue was that, since the discussion was about Merrill addressing how the Dalish could hypothetically help escaped slaves from the Imperium, joining a clan had nothing to do with it. There are more than a few examples of Dalish from different clans helping non-Dalish elves (this is even brought up by one of the elves in the Denerim Alienage during the City Elf Origin). I'm not saying you were making that claim; I'm saying that's the issue with what the original poster said.

 

If we're addressing something entirely different altogether (an elf voluntarily joining a clan), I honestly don't see why anyone would be surprised that joining the Dalish would involve becoming Dalish. Since the Dalish are a cultural and religious group dedicated to living a particular way of life, I really don't think anyone would be surprised that joining a clan would involve becoming Dalish.

 

I'm not making Qun00's arguments for him regarding Merrill's character. As you've pointed out previously, that whole thing about Merrill saying the Dalish would take in runaway slaves somehow being a bad thing didn't even make any sense. I never claimed it did and wasn't arguing in support of it.

 

All right.

[Ghost Gal]

Andraste was also a mortal woman, who died a mortal's death. (Where was her god to protect her then?). Just because she helped the elves doesn't mean they were all clamoring to worship her as a goddess, or believe in her claims to divinity (which didn't prevent her execution). The Dalish themselves say they respected her as a general and friend to the elves, they just don't believe she was divine.

[LobselVith8]

This conversation reminds me of another point I wanted to make.

 

Do we know that Ameridan was unusual in his worship of both the Maker and the Creators? I mean, the Dales elves were free and in the Dales b/c of Andraste and her relationship with Shartan, ultimately. I know they reinstated Creator worship while in the Dales, but do we have reason to believe a good portion of them didn't also adopt the faith of Andraste, simultaneously, like Ameridan? Was Ameridan alone in his beliefs?

 

Well, we need to keep in mind that there were multiple Cults of Andraste that rose up. Drakon was a follower of one of the Cults. There may have been elves who didn't live in the Dales who converted to the religion, but I imagine the elves who made the Long Walk to the Dales had the intent of following their own gods. Honestly, I have trouble picturing most freed elven slaves wanting to worship a human god after being freed from centuries of slavery under human slavers in the Imperium. I also think the Chantry historians would have made some mention if a large portion of the elven populace in the Dales wanted to convert or had already converted; both the histories of the Chantry and the Dalish seem to concur that the elves of the Dales followed their own pantheon.

 

Even the history from the City Elves about the fall of the Dales stresses that it was the refusal of the elves of the Dales (who were called 'Dalish') to convert as an issue of tension between the two groups: "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

[Qun00]

Yes, she is. And I think it was this pridefulness Fenris was picking up on when he says "smug superiority". I don't think Merrill intended to be smug. She's proud. And I think its safe to say she does, in Act 1 at least, consider Dalish culture to be superior to that of city elves. She's not mean about it or anything, but there's a certain type of audacity (which I am sure is intended since that's the name of the pride demon she was dealing with) when she basically questions their priorities in life whenever she talks about why they don't focus on the past like she thinks they should. There's a certain element of smugness, but not with the normally accompanying malice if that makes sense?

And I think Qun00 is right about the requirment to convert to Creator worship. Or, at the least, not be a practicing Andrastian. Its part and parcel of the whole Dalish culture: they hunt, they fish, they ride through the woods via deer-drawn carraiges, and they worship the Creators. Some clans might be tolerant enough to not have a hard and fast rule about how completely the elf has to convert, but I can't see any city elf receiving their vallaslin without expressing a belief in the creators and a preference for one in particular. And if you don't receive vallaslin, you aren't a full fledged member of the clan. In some clans, there might be room for elves who believe in both, and in their minds they can prioritize the Maker as being the creator of the Creators or something, but I doubt this is something they can express out loud all that often.

The dalish clans have many freedoms in their way of life, but full-throated freedom of religion isn't likely one of them, in any clan. Especially if the preferred religion is Andrastianism. They've tied too much of their cultural identity into being not only Creator worshipers, but simply Not Andrastian. Humans and the misguided alienage elves are Andrastian. We are not them.

Bravo. That sums it up quite nicely.

Of course, I would have still addressed Feynriel. I don't think it is ever okay to call someone of mixed heritage a "half-breed".

[LobselVith8]

That sums it up quite nicely.

 

I still don't see how pointing out that a religious and cultural group who follows a particular religious and cultural norm is actually a valid criticism.​ It also has nothing to do with the actual point you brought up of Merrill saying that the clans could help escaped elven slaves - as we've seen and heard about the Dalish helping non-Dalish elves before, from the City Elf Origin to Clan Lavellan risking their lives for the Andrastian elves of Wycome. The Dalish helping an elf in need, and an elf joining the Dalish voluntarily, are two very different things.

[Qun00]

My point was never that they don't help, but that it comes at a price.

[LobselVith8]

My point was never that they don't help, but that it comes at a price.

 

Your claim is disproven by an Andrastian elf in City Elf Origin, who explicitly says that the Dalish didn't expect the Andrastian elf to join; there's also the example of the child Aneirin, when the Dalish saved his life when the templars left him for dead (unless you're claiming they telepathically knew he wanted to join when they found him on the verge of death); it's also disproven by the example of Lanaya, as she explains the Dalish offered to take her to one of the human cities, but that she declined and said she wanted to remain with them. I'm not even bringing up the example of Clan Lavellan risking their lives for the Wycome elves, despite the fact that the clan could easily abandon them.

 

So far, we have numerous examples that show that it isn't mandatory for the Dalish to help someone who isn't Dalish (also exemplified by the treaty they signed with the Grey Wardens).

[Ghost Gal]

I address it because Drakon invaded his neighbors because he wanted to create an empire "under the worship of the Maker". Drakon being friends with a man who followed his religion and tolerating him isn't the same as tolerating an entire kingdom of men, women, and children who follow a different religion.

 

 

It's never contested that Drakon conquered his neighbors in religious wars - that's exactly how Orlais came to be. Drakon being nice to Andrastian convert Ameridan doesn't change that. And I bring it up because it's something to consider when you factor an entire nation of people who don't follow Drakon's religion, and Drakon's interest in expanding his empire and bringing people under the worship of the Maker (and let's not forget Amerian also makes note of Drakon's interest in bringing people to the Andrastian faith).

 

Indeed. In fact, this codex entry acknowledges that Orlais was going around conquering its neighbors at the time, and the in-universe anonymous University of Orlais publisher posits an alternate theory as to the true reason for the Exalted March: the conquer of Ferelden as a possible motive for Orlais trying to conquer the Dales. (Bolded parts by me) :

 

"The Chantry's story of the Exalted March of the Dales paints the picture of the righteous faithful arrayed against heathen savages. But I have long studied the Dales, and I find the "acceptable" version of the tale to be a poor one, laden with overt pro-Chantry and pro-human biases. Thus it is my moral imperative to propose an alternate interpretation: that the Exalted March of the Dales was nothing more than an expansionist ploy hiding behind the mask of faith.

 

It is easy to see on any map how large the Dales are. More importantly, they stand between Orlais and the rest of the south and would likely have represented a significant obstacle to the empire's expansion into Ferelden. Naturally, we stood to benefit from propagating the narrative of a hostile, unreasoning people attacking innocent missionaries and making blood sacrifices of good Andrastian babies. The likely truth is that the elves merely wished to maintain sovereignty over lands promised to them by Blessed Andraste herself, when the humans showed clear intent to undermine their autonomy."

 

I'm not saying Orlais' motivation was imperialist rather than religious, but it could have been both; intolerance toward the elven faith and autonomy, and a desire to grab their lands. A desire to put down worship of "false, heathen" elven gods in favor of their "one, true god," and a desire to bulldoze over them on their quest to expand their borders over the Dales and Frostbacks into Ferelden. The two motives work in harmony with each other, since claiming the elves are evil justifies religious invasion, and claiming the spread of faith justifies land-grabbing for border-expanding imperialists.

 

Personally, I think elf/human interactions reek of "whenever the elves give an inch, humans take a mile." Ameridan worshiped both the Maker and Elven Pantheon, yet the Chantry chooses to remember him as a devout Andrastian who hunted heretics. Cassandra asks of a Dalish Inquisitior, "Is there not room among your gods for one more?" yet she doesn't volunteer to add the elven pantheon to her daily prayers; and in fact shows flagrant disrespect to elven religion in the Temple of Mytha. "Why are we wasting our time with this heathen nonsense?" indeed.

 

Orlesian humans claimed they just wanted to send missionaries into elven territory because they wanted to give those poor elves the option to worship the REAL god if they so chose, yet the Chantry's whole founding doctrine is "Every god is wicked and false except ours, and every person not part of our religion is heathen and wicked." They also believe the Maker won't come back unless they "spread the Chant of Light to the Four Corners of the Earth." Considering the Dales stands in the way of the Chantry's eastern corner of expansion, if the Elves said "No thanks, take your Chant somewhere else," would the Chantry have really taken that lying down? They believe every faith is wicked except theirs and they have a moral obligation to spread the word to bring their god back, and those pesky elves aren't cooperating. I don't believe for one second they would have apologized and left after the elves turned them down; and I think the elves knew it too, which is why they didn't let humans bring missionaries into their borders. The elves aren't stupid. They probably saw that Orlais was going around conquering and converting its neighbors, so when Orlais (that same conqueror) sent missionaries to their doorstep, it's a small wonder they said, "Not interested!" and slammed the figurative door in their face.

 

P.S. Also, if the elves wanted to worship Andraste, couldn't they have formed their own religion within their borders on their own terms? The human version of her exploits has elves as barely a footnote in the whole affair, while the elves likely see themselves as integral to the whole affair. If they wanted to worship her, they could have created their own elfy version of her story with their own elfy version of worship; they didn't need humans coming in with their own human-centered religion, telling elves how they should view and worship their mortal savior.

[Qun00]

Your claim is disproven by an Andrastian elf in City Elf Origin, who explicitly says that the Dalish didn't expect the Andrastian elf to join; there's also the example of the child Aneirin, when the Dalish saved his life when the templars left him for dead (unless you're claiming they telepathically knew he wanted to join when they found him on the verge of death); it's also disproven by the example of Lanaya, as she explains the Dalish offered to take her to one of the human cities, but that she declined and said she wanted to remain with them. I'm not even bringing up the example of Clan Lavellan risking their lives for the Wycome elves, despite the fact that the clan could easily abandon them.

So far, we have numerous examples that show that it isn't mandatory for the Dalish to help someone who isn't Dalish (also exemplified by the treaty they signed with the Grey Wardens).

Then we should send an elven agent to personally deliver a trophy to the Dalish.

Uh... not to Merrill though. She still is a rotten fruit covered in whipped cream.

[LobselVith8]

Then we should send an elven agent to personally deliver a trophy to the Dalish.

 

I find it odd that you created this thread - with a Dalish term for the gathering of the clans in the subject line -  and yet you seem to intensely dislike the Dalish.

 

Uh... not to Merrill though. She still is a rotten fruit covered in whipped cream.

 

You mean the elf who actually cares enough about the Andrastian elves to actually help them - and protect them - when they need it?

[Qun00]

I find it odd that you created this thread - with a Dalish term for the gathering of the clans in the subject line - and yet you seem to intensely dislike the Dalish.


You mean the elf who actually cares enough about the Andrastian elves to actually help them - and protect them - when they need it?

No, no, not them. In fact, Mahariel and Lavellan are canon in my world state.

The elf that gets away with arrogance and needless sarcasm because she looks cute.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm very certain Ameridan and Drakon were allies, but history notes that the Dales are the reason why Drakon was never able to proceed with trying to conquer the Free Marches. Furthermore, Ameridan is clearly in favor of Drakon's expansionist policies (given his dialogue to a non-elven Inquisitor), which involved conquest and conversion to the Andrastian faith by his subjects. His religious wars against his neighbors are cited as Exalted Marches in History of the Chantry. Ameridan is also a convert to Drakon's particular Cult of Andraste turned nationalized religion.

 

 

History cites the Dales as the reason why Drakon doesn't attempt to annex the Free Marches: "Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillius Drakon is crowned emperor of the new Orlesian Empire in Val Royeaux. His ambitions to spread north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east."

 

Ameridan's memories explicitly say Telana "should be at Halamshiral reminding our people of our alliance with Drakon." And Ameridan himself was an important figure in the Dales.

 

Unless you're suggesting American was a traitor to the Dales or something, it's pretty clear that both nations were allies (even if some weren't happy about it). The fact that Ameridan is Andrastian also is something that suggests the Cult of the Maker is not something that was unheard of among the population of the Dales. Especially since Shartan himself was a convert and whoever wrote the Canticle of Shartan was also probably an elven Andrastian.

 

Frankly, I think first hand info from Jaws of Hakkon trumps anything from the guidebooks for Dragon Age: Origins.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

There is something that I been wondering about Dalish Elves and their legend regarding the Creators. Obviously we now know it is inaccurate but something is truly odd with it.

 

According to Dalish legends, the Creators were tricked by Fen'Harel who then locked the Creators away in the Beyond. The Dalish follow this line of thought with the notion that if the Dalish pray to the Creators, they would one day return back to the Elvhen.

 

Is it just me or does that not make any sense ? I mean Fen Harel tricked the Creators and locked them away in the Beyond. How exactly does praying to them help ? They are not among the Elvhen to receive their prayers, they are somewhere else, tricked away, absent. Shouldn't the Dalish be seeking Fen'Harel out and force him to bring the Creators back or try to learn what Fen'Harel actually did and undo it or seek the Creators in the Beyond themselves with the help of their mages ? However, why are they praying ? That's not exactly the logical thing to do.

 

Sure the Chantry has prayers as well but according to Chantry legend, the Maker was not tricked away to some corner of the Fade. He just stopped giving a f*ck. So the notion of praying and spreading the Chant to make him give a f*ck again sort of makes sense.

 

I just find it weird that no Dalish Elf has raised this point among their people:- That if they truly want the Creators to return they should try to find the Creators themselves in the Beyond or find Fen'Harel and force him to do it, praying is not going to accomplish much.

[The Ascendant]

Does the Chantry want to convert all races or only humans? The Chantry doesn't really encourage Elves to join. It was the Chantry that delegates Elves to Alienages, ignores their contributions to their own religion and forbids them from taking part in any way with the religion. When was the last time you saw an Elven priest or Templar? The most you see of Elves in the Chantry is in the Circle of Magi, and they are not there of their own volition. Although where else are they going to learn how to use magic safely and responsibly.

[jlb524]

Merrill?  Oh, you mean the one who helps out random elves stay safe from the war and crap during Inquisition?

 

Yeah, she a pretty big meanie.

[Gervaise]

Ameridan wasn't a convert to the cult because of his friendship with Drakon; I would say that he became Inquisitor because of his already existing faith in the Maker.  There is no reason to suggest that before the rise of the Chantry this was seen as incompatible with having faith in other gods.    Apparently the Alamarri tribes had animist beliefs even after the rise of Andraste's cult of the Maker.   Andrastrianism had been around for some 180 years before Drakon founded his version of it.    It had been the official religion in Tevinter for 160 years before the founding of the Chantry and yet the latter had the cheek to criticise Tevinter of altering the Chant.   In fact there seems no basis for thinking there was any sort of official Chant until Drakon decreed it.

 

There were other cults of the Maker during the time of Drakon that had likely been around for many years.   Some were dangerous but others were totally inoffensive in terms of a danger to public order.    The Daughters of Song were one such cult.   It was a harmless fertility cult but Drakon and the Chantry objected to it as concentrating too much on the "bride of the Maker" aspect of Andraste, so they wiped it out    It could well have been observing what Drakon did to this cult  and others like them that caused the leaders of the Dales to regard Orlais as no better than Tevinter.    They certainly would have seen how he wished to expand his empire and realised the threat they would present and barrier to his intentions.

 

Ameridan was well aware of the dangers of Drakon wanting to "keep things simple", having just one faith for everyone, which is why he wanted to return to the Dales and speak as the voice of moderation both among his own countrymen and to Drakon.   When hostilities increased between the two nations, both sides seem to have conveniently forgotten about him, although it would seem his own clan did their best to remind people.    The Chantry of course chose to ignore them and all but wipe his memory from the historical record.     It is noticeable how Leliana, the supposed great reformer of the Chantry, is quite willing to let this situation continue by "buying" the silence of the clan on the matter and let the human noble family maintain their falsehood.   At least Cassandra is insistent the truth should be known.

 

The Chantry teach that because the elves have their pantheon of false gods and dwarves their belief in the ancestors, they are further from the Maker's light.   The Qun are considered even worse because they actively oppose any sort of religion.    So all these races need bringing to the worship of the Maker, so they can be saved.   When they conquered the Dales, those that they captured and put into alienages were forced to convert to the Chant; at the very least they were not permitted to worship anything else.  They also teach that the Maker will only return when the Chant is sung from all parts of Thedas.   This means that everyone needs converting or the Maker will not return.   It makes Exalted Marches almost obligatory.   It is also a highly convenient way of combining Orlesian expansionism with religious piety.   Every time Orlais conquered a nation, they were bringing them to knowledge of the Maker.     Even after ejecting their Orlesian conquerors it would seem that most nations seemed willing to keep the Chant, probably because everywhere other than Rivain, the Chantry had been successful in eradicating any rival faiths or reducing them to the fringes of society. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The Daughters of Song were one such cult.   It was a harmless fertility cult but Drakon and the Chantry objected to it as concentrating too much on the "bride of the Maker" aspect of Andraste, so they wiped it out    It could well have been observing what Drakon did to this cult  and others like them that caused the leaders of the Dales to regard Orlais as no better than Tevinter.    They certainly would have seen how he wished to expand his empire and realised the threat they would present and barrier to his intentions.

 

Its a shame that none of the Divine candidates in Inquisition thought to bring back and legitimize the Daughters of Song. Would have supported that Divine in a heartbeat.