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[sniper_arrow]

There is something that I been wondering about Dalish Elves and their legend regarding the Creators. Obviously we now know it is inaccurate but something is truly odd with it.

 

According to Dalish legends, the Creators were tricked by Fen'Harel who then locked the Creators away in the Beyond. The Dalish follow this line of thought with the notion that if the Dalish pray to the Creators, they would one day return back to the Elvhen.

 

Is it just me or does that not make any sense ? I mean Fen Harel tricked the Creators and locked them away in the Beyond. How exactly does praying to them help ? They are not among the Elvhen to receive their prayers, they are somewhere else, tricked away, absent. Shouldn't the Dalish be seeking Fen'Harel out and force him to bring the Creators back or try to learn what Fen'Harel actually did and undo it or seek the Creators in the Beyond themselves with the help of their mages ? However, why are they praying ? That's not exactly the logical thing to do.

 

Sure the Chantry has prayers as well but according to Chantry legend, the Maker was not tricked away to some corner of the Fade. He just stopped giving a f*ck. So the notion of praying and spreading the Chant to make him give a f*ck again sort of makes sense.

 

I just find it weird that no Dalish Elf has raised this point among their people:- That if they truly want the Creators to return they should try to find the Creators themselves in the Beyond or find Fen'Harel and force him to do it, praying is not going to accomplish much.

 

It's the same with the Chantry in wanting the Maker to return after abandoning them due to Andraste's death (or so the story goes). It's like if you pray hard enough, your beloved deity will return to you and force you to watch James Franco's "Mother, May I Sleep with Danger?" remake.

 

The bigger questions are does Solas intend to reveal he's Fen'harel to the Dalish and will they really believe him in return? Unless of course he manages to show them proof that he's the real deal.

[Gervaise]

The Dalish are problematic when it comes to Solas.   They revere the Creators and already believe that Fen'Harel double crossed them, so even if they weren't aware of the Veil, Fen'Harel is responsible for all they have suffered since the loss of their gods.    Simply turning up and saying "Hi, I'm Fen'Harel", would probably result in a lot of arrows even if they did believe him.   Mind you if the archers were instantly turned to stone along with their arrows, that might get their attention and willingness to listen.

 

Still, what's he going to say?   I'm responsible for your downfall because I hated your gods.   You were all once slaves but I freed you.   Now I'm going to tear down the Veil to restore the world of the elves but there's a good chance you will die in the process.   Yes, it will restore the gods but I have plans for them.  I still hate them.  

 

The Dalish lore about Fen'Harel does label him a trickster and god of misfortune who gleefully hugged himself at having tricked all the gods into being imprisoned and then stalked the Fade devouring souls.    They have continued to pray and make offerings to him down the years because they knew he was still very much active and wanted him to avert his gaze from them, "May the Dread wolf never hear your step".    Most invocations to Fen'Harel are in the form of curses against your enemies "May the Dread Wolf take you".    So there is going to be a big trust issue with the Dalish.    Why should they believe anything he says to them, even if they do accept that he is Fen'Harel?    All they have ever said about Fen'Harel is that he is a big, fat, liar and spiteful to boot.    

 

This is why if they do have the Dalish running off to him in droves, without a corresponding faction who won't have anything to do with him, I shall be very disappointed.   If they do this on the back of a Dalish play through, so there is a Lavellan who can attend the Arlathaven and outline the full picture to the gathering of the clans or simply spend their time seeking out individual clans to warn them, I think I shall lose all faith in the writing team.

[Qun00]

Merrill?  Oh, you mean the one who helps out random elves stay safe from the war and crap during Inquisition?
 
Yeah, she a pretty big meanie.

A meanie? Sir, I will have to demand you take that back right now!

I firmly believe that even murderers deserve a second chance, but questioning her perfection is something I won't tolerate.

[LobselVith8]

Although I'm sure the story will bend and twist to suit the dictates of the authors, by the standards of the story, I'm not certain many elves would honestly bother joining Solas if certain choices are made. Think about it: if an elven Inquisitor supports Briala to become the ruler of Orlais and she becomes Marquise of the Dales, wouldn’t Andrastian elves be heading to the elven homeland for better prosperity and opportunity than they have where they are? Perhaps even qunari elves as well. Briala is giving elves rights, land - there's already a place where they can build a future for themselves. That's much more tangible hope than the simple promises of a man in a world where spirits are known to deceive and trick you.

 

Solas has already proven that he's not that good in communication with the Dalish (he comes across as offensive a lot of the time). I suppose the clans at the Tisahan Forest who follow the Forgotten Ones might listen to him and join him (the ones with crimson vallaslin).

 

With Varric bestowing the noble title of Comte to an elven protagonist, couldn’t the protagonist use the significant funds of the Inquisition to acquire the lands near Kirkwall for Dalish settlement? From the ancient elven ruins of Sundermount and the Wounded Coast to the Vinmark Mountains, perhaps even reaching all the way to the Planasene Forest.

 

Sundermount has an entrance to a dwarven thaig that could be reclaimed, given House Helmi retaking the nearby Great Thaig of Kal’Hirol. And if there was a newfound dwarven presence in the thaig (especially with wonders like the Nexus Golem to lure the dwarves to reclaiming it), that could mean a steady supply of lyrium for the Dalish through trade.

 

Helping repel the Starkhaven invasion could easily make the elven Inquisitor a hero to the people of Kirkwall, perhaps even including the Dalish if they played a role (since Inquisition forces are involved in that scenario).

 

With Wycome under the guidance of a council involving Clan Lavellan and hahren Merrill presumably in Kirkwall (as a friend to Viscount Varric and a voice for the elven people), an elven protagonist could have good reason to establish a sanctuary for the People in the Free Marches. Especially one who has the ear of the Viscount.

 

Or the Dalish could even settle the lands of the southern Dales where Skyhold is located given the existing alliance between Briala and Lavellan.

[Gervaise]

Or they could head into the Arbor Wilds.   Provided they don't kill any stray human scholars, I doubt anyone would seriously be bothered about them taking up residence there.    It is pretty far south and way off any trade routes.    Plus there is Fairbanks who you can put in charge of the area of the Emerald Graves, who would surely be willing to welcome some friendly elves into establishing themselves in the area.

 

I'd already thought about building a future in the Freemarches on the back of Lavellan's efforts whilst in the Inquisition.   In fact that is what I had my Lavellan do once he had disbanded the Inquisition.    He had a title and the friendship of the Viscount of Kirkwall, his clan jointly running the Wycome city council and Hawke available to make an introduction to Prince Sebastian, who had once suggested to Fenris he should train elves in his city in the martial arts (and Hawke and Fenris have agreed to remind him of that fact).    Once Hawke has managed to get Sebastian on side, that makes the two most important cities in the Freemarches (Kirkwall and Starkhaven) plus the revelry capital of Thedas (Wycome), in which there is a strong positive elven influence.    If Lavellan can't build something lasting out of that, then they learned nothing during their time as Inquisitor, which if you recall was the principal reason for the Keeper sending them to spy on the Conclave in the first place.

 

The key, as Lavellan will remind the Dalish at the Arlathaven, is working with your neighbours when they seem inclined to do so instead of maintaining the constant mistrust.   It will also help that there is a renewed threat from the Qun and the Dalish have never been inclined to work with them (Lavellan refused their offer).    The Dalish are renowned as fighters and allowing them to influence the city elves will undermine the Qun's (and Solas') agents in that direction.     

 

Of course what happens with the writers is anyone's guess as they seem determined to paint the Dalish as idiots much of the time and equally have the city elves rushing off to join Solas despite Lavellan's best efforts on their behalf.

[Sifr]

Ok, I see where you got that conclusion, then. I question whether the claim in that entry is accurate though. In-game/WoT lore sources are often unreliable narrators. That sentence sounds like its something out of a dissertation on the history of Orlais by some University scholar. Meanwhile, we have a primary source in Ameridan, who was there and knew the man and the situation, and he seemed to think Drakon wanted nothing but peace with his eastern neighbors.

 

I have to agree on the in-game sources being unreliable.

 

How can we necessarily trust that the accepted historical sources claiming that Drakon had issues with the Dales are accurate, when this information comes from the same scholars who had no idea that Inquisitor Ameridan was an elven mage?

 

It could be that one of the many bits of historical revision that were enacted after Drakon II lead the Exalted Marches on the Dales, amending the official histories to claim that relations had always been turbulent between Orlais and the Dales, even during his father's reign.

[LobselVith8]

The key, as Lavellan will remind the Dalish at the Arlathaven, is working with your neighbours when they seem inclined to do so instead of maintaining the constant mistrust.   It will also help that there is a renewed threat from the Qun and the Dalish have never been inclined to work with them (Lavellan refused their offer).    The Dalish are renowned as fighters and allowing them to influence the city elves will undermine the Qun's (and Solas') agents in that direction.     

 

You bring up some excellent ideas for your canon. For my own canon, I can see the Dalish providing invaluable allies if they settled near Kirkwall, given the numerous issues it has due to being a Tevinter Hellmouth.

 

Presumably, the new Divine struck down the prohibition against the elven religion, so the Dalish don't have to worry about that, either (I can't imagine Lavellan having a continued presence in Wycome if the law was still in effect).

 

Of course what happens with the writers is anyone's guess as they seem determined to paint the Dalish as idiots much of the time and equally have the city elves rushing off to join Solas despite Lavellan's best efforts on their behalf.

 

I agree that their handling of the elves isn't really good. There's much more nuance in their handling of Andrastian humans than there is with their depiction of either the Dalish or Andrastian elves. I'm reminded of the scene where Hawke approaches Clan Sabrae, and there seems to be some surprise that the Dalish would be wary and apprehensive of humans - rather than addressing for potential new viewers that the Dalish have good cause to be wary, it simply glosses over these facts in order to treat the Dalish as rude for not buttering Hawke's butt upon arrival. Or even the treatment of the elven religion of the People in comparison to the human religion of the Chantry.

[Gervaise]

I'm longing for the day when a human Andrastrian Inquisitor is made aware of the true history of Andraste (as constantly found in codices and the World of Thedas) and then is forced to say by the writers "So the Chantry got it wrong!"    However, since this didn't occur despite the opportunities presented in DAI, I have to assume it is never going to happen.    Still one can dream.

 

On the Tevinter hellmouth/thin Veil on Sundermount, etc, I had Cillian (a continued supporter of Lavellan) suggest setting up the Emerald Knights once more, specifically the branch known as the Fade Hunters, in order to protect the people of the Freemarches from the more hostile denizens of the Fade and any other major threats to their welfare, such as the Dread Wolf.     I feel that Ameridan was originally a Fade Hunter and that is how he acquired his expertise in hunting down demons, abominations and maleficarum in protecting the Dales, before joining up with the Inquisition, while they were still an independent organisation.   From there he earned respect and friendship of Drakon, so that when the post of Inquisitor fell vacant it was Drakon who recommended Ameridan for the post.

 

Ameridan didn't think that Drakon wanted  "nothing but peace" with his eastern neighbours.   He foresaw that Drakon's vision for his religion would cause problems but hoped to circumvent things by showing that the two faiths could co-exist and working together against a common enemy.     He also was worried about the increased influence of the isolationists in the Dales but admits that they were concerned about Drakon's motives.    I'm pretty sure they didn't suggest that Orlais was no better than Tevinter without good reason.   If anything Ameridan was compromised by his friendship with Drakon and wouldn't admit the truth.     Drakon did want to establish an empire to rival the old Imperium and it was probably the 2nd Blight that stopped him.   Even then, those places, like the Anderfels, that he liberated from the darkspawn then found themselves claimed for the Orlesian Empire and subsequently had to free themselves from its grip.     Time and again Tevinter and Orlais used the Blights to advance their own territory under the guise of aiding the Grey Wardens.   A pretty low trick if you ask me.   No wonder Loghain was suspicious of their intentions.

[LobselVith8]

I have to agree on the in-game sources being unreliable.

 

How can we necessarily trust that the accepted historical sources claiming that Drakon had issues with the Dales are accurate, when this information comes from the same scholars who had no idea that Inquisitor Ameridan was an elven mage.

 

It could be that one of the many bits of historical revision that were enacted after Drakon II lead the Exalted Marches on the Dales, amending the official histories to claim that relations had always been turbulent between Orlais and the Dales, even during his father's reign.

 

I think there would be due cause for the Dales to be wary - they were neighbors of the city-states Drakon conquered in his religious wars (his Exalted Marches, as history defines them) - ultimately becoming Orlais through conquest and forced conversion to the faith. If your neighbor is invading other neighbors, mandating his Cult as the one and only religion of the land, and apparently wants to spread his empire onward, I don't see why you wouldn't be worried.

 

Sure, Ameridan was friends with Drakon, but he also agreed to follow the Andrastian faith - it's not like Drakon was friends with someone who followed a different religion. The people of the Dales didn't believe in the Maker and didn't follow Drakon's Cult of Andraste (even the history of the City elves of the Alienages and the Chantry concurs with this); there's more than ample reason for them to be concerned about Drakon and Orlais.

 

It honestly sounds illogical for the denizens of the Dales not to be worried about Orlais when it can pose a real danger to them. If you were living in a particular country and someone was invading your neighbors, wouldn't you be worried? Ameridan's relationship with Drakon doesn't change that (and since he obviously seemed to think positively of Drakon expanding his empire, given his dialogue to a Human and Vashoth Inquisitor, it's clear that Ameridan knew what kind of man Drakon was as a ruler and an expansionist).

[Gervaise]

The other thing is the strategic advantage of holding the Dales which would make anyone intent on expanding their empire need to control it or alternatively have a friendly nation willing to let your armies pass through it.    The Dales were hardly likely to approve of that.   The people on the other side of the Frostbacks were just as much their allies as Orlais.   It was the Alamarri who originally gave them the Dales.   Plus if you let Orlais conquer your neighbours, then you would be left in isolation.  The fact is that religion and animosity aside, Orlais needed the Dales if they were going to expand their empire, so hostilities were always on the cards and the Dales simply helped by giving the ammunition for Orlais to justify the war, but the elves could have been the most benign and helpful neighbours and it would have still ended the same.  Having foreign gods didn't help matters but that was a smokescreen.   Having the same religion didn't stop them conquering other states.

 

If it had truly been about spreading the Chant, why didn't Orlais continue into the Frostbacks and conquer the Avaar?    That would certainly have removed another potential threat from their borders, given the history of Avaar aggression in Ferelden if not Orlais itself.    The answer is that the campaign would not have been worth the effort, the Avaar were not significant enough a threat and "saving" them from their heathen gods did not seem sufficient incentive to embark on a campaign.

[Xilizhra]

I'm longing for the day when a human Andrastrian Inquisitor is made aware of the true history of Andraste (as constantly found in codices and the World of Thedas) and then is forced to say by the writers "So the Chantry got it wrong!"    However, since this didn't occur despite the opportunities presented in DAI, I have to assume it is never going to happen.    Still one can dream.

Can't a human Andrastian Inquisitor be quite critical of the Chantry?

[Iakus]

I think there would be due cause for the Dales to be wary - they were neighbors of the city-states Drakon conquered in his religious wars (his Exalted Marches, as history defines them) - ultimately becoming Orlais through conquest and forced conversion to the faith. If your neighbor is invading other neighbors, mandating his Cult as the one and only religion of the land, and apparently wants to spread his empire onward, I don't see why you wouldn't be worried.

 

Sure, Ameridan was friends with Drakon, but he also agreed to follow the Andrastian faith - it's not like Drakon was friends with someone who followed a different religion. The people of the Dales didn't believe in the Maker and didn't follow Drakon's Cult of Andraste (even the history of the City elves of the Alienages and the Chantry concurs with this); there's more than ample reason for them to be concerned about Drakon and Orlais.

 

It honestly sounds illogical for the denizens of the Dales not to be worried about Orlais when it can pose a real danger to them. If you were living in a particular country and someone was invading your neighbors, wouldn't you be worried? Ameridan's relationship with Drakon doesn't change that (and since he obviously seemed to think positively of Drakon expanding his empire, given his dialogue to a Human and Vashoth Inquisitor, it's clear that Ameridan knew what kind of man Drakon was as a ruler and an expansionist).

Drakon's wars were not Exalted Marches.  The Exalted March on the Dales was the first one since Andraste's time.

 

Ameridan was Andrastrian, but his own personal flavor of it.  He did not follow the Cult of Andraste or the Chantry, but believed Andraste ascended to godhood and he worshiped her alongside the Creators.  Note the shrine he built to both Andraste and GIlain'nain (whom Dalish stories say was an elf who similarly achieved godhood)  That Drakon was good friends with Ameridan regardless speaks much of his character and religious tolerance, I think.

 

Elves in Ameridan's time were worried that Orlais would become another Tevinter.  Ameridan hoped to foster a lasting friendship between Orlais and the Dales and head off such suspicion.  If he had lived, and gotten the Dales more involved in fighting the Second Blight, he may well have succeeded.

[The Ascendant]

Wasn't it the Elves who initiated the hostilities? They attacked Red Crossing. I suppose that the war was inevitable and in hindsight it doesn't matter who struck the first blow.

[Xilizhra]

Elves in Ameridan's time were worried that Orlais would become another Tevinter.  Ameridan hoped to foster a lasting friendship between Orlais and the Dales and head off such suspicion.  If he had lived, and gotten the Dales more involved in fighting the Second Blight, he may well have succeeded.

I really, really doubt it. Orlesian culture was already deeply corrupt in Drakon's time; he attempted to stop the Game, but failed.

[Iakus]

Can't a human Andrastian Inquisitor be quite critical of the Chantry?

Yes.  An Andrastrian Inquisitor can.

 

I've had a human Andrastrian Inquisitor tell Cassandra that perhaps the Chantry should fall when discussing the possibility of her becoming Divine.

[Iakus]

Wasn't it the Elves who initiated the hostilities? They attacked Red Crossing. I suppose that the war was inevitable and in hindsight it doesn't matter who struck the first blow.

The truth of Red Crossing is pretty well muddied.  Border raids had been going on for years.

 

I really, really doubt it. Orlesian culture was already deeply corrupt in Drakon's time; he attempted to stop the Game, but failed.

True.  but a century of fighting side by side against the darkspawn might have done much to make elves look like potential allies rather than targets.  At the very least, Orlais may have been no more contemptuous of them than they are against other humans.

[LobselVith8]

Drakon's wars were not Exalted Marches.  The Exalted March on the Dales was the first one since Andraste's time.

 

Actually, they are referred to as Exalted Marches historically:

 

"There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

 

Ameridan was Andrastrian, but his own personal flavor of it.  He did not follow the Cult of Andraste or the Chantry, but believed Andraste ascended to godhood and he worshiped her alongside the Creators.  Note the shrine he built to both Andraste and GIlain'nain (whom Dalish stories say was an elf who similarly achieved godhood)  That Drakon was good friends with Ameridan regardless speaks much of his character and religious tolerance, I think.

 

The fact that Drakon forced his particular Cult of Andraste on his new subjects, and was known to wipe out followers of different faiths (one example was described on the previous), would suggest otherwise.

 

Elves in Ameridan's time were worried that Orlais would become another Tevinter.  Ameridan hoped to foster a lasting friendship between Orlais and the Dales and head off such suspicion.  If he had lived, and gotten the Dales more involved in fighting the Second Blight, he may well have succeeded.

 

One could argue it was in regards to being an expansionist empire. Interestingly, both Orlais and Tevinter had used the Third Blight to conquer the lands they were protecting - they certainly have their similarities.

[Iakus]

Actually, they are referred to as Exalted Marches historically:

 

"There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

 

You're going to have to cite that source.  Because the codex specifically states that an "Exalted March" is led by the Chantry, not an individual nation.  And the Exalted March of the Dales is the first one called since Andraste's time.

 

 

 

The fact that Drakon forced his particular Cult of Andraste on his new subjects, and was known to wipe out followers of different faiths (one example was described on the previous), would suggest otherwise.

Again, citation needed.

 

 

One could argue it was in regards to being an expansionist empire. Interestingly, both Orlais and Tevinter had used the Third Blight to conquer the lands they were protecting - they certainly have their similarities.

Sure.  Orlais being expansionist is a perfectly justifiable reason to be concerned.  But at this point, the Second Blight had barely kicked off, let alone the Third.  Are we justifying "pre-crime" actions here?

[LobselVith8]

You're going to have to cite that source.  Because the codex specifically states that an "Exalted March" is led by the Chantry, not an individual nation.  And the Exalted March of the Dales is the first one called since Andraste's time.

 

What I cited (about Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors) is from History of the Chantry, Chapter 4. It's a codex entry from both Origins and Dragon Age II.

 

Again, citation needed.

 

"The Daughters of the Song" is a codex entry from Inquisition. It reads: "The Daughters of Song were wiped out by the righteous forces of Emperor Drakon during his campaigns to unite all of Orlais. When the emperor's forces sacked the village, the Daughters would not arm themselves and were either killed or captured. The village was destroyed, and the cult never recovered."

 

As I said, Drakon doesn't seem very tolerant of people who follow other faiths.

 

Sure.  Orlais being expansionist is a perfectly justifiable reason to be concerned.  But at this point, the Second Blight had barely kicked off, let alone the Third.  Are we justifying "pre-crime" actions here?

 

Well, when said person has already invaded and murdered people, it's not really pre-crime, is it?

[Iakus]

What I cited (about Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors) is from History of the Chantry, Chapter 4. It's a codex entry from both Origins and Dragon Age II.

 

World of Thedas page 13:

 

"An Exalted March is a call to arms declared by the ruling Divine.  If Drakon's wars were "exalted marches" they weren't official ones.

 

 

 

"The Daughters of the Song" is a codex entry from Inquisition. It reads: "The Daughters of Song were wiped out by the righteous forces of Emperor Drakon during his campaigns to unite all of Orlais. When the emperor's forces sacked the village, the Daughters would not arm themselves and were either killed or captured. The village was destroyed, and the cult never recovered."

As I said, Drakon doesn't seem very tolerant of people who follow other faiths.

Thank you.

 

It sounds like the Daughters of Song were a bunch of bacchanalians to me.  But this is just one instance.  I can just as easily point to Ameridan and say Drakon is at least somewhat tolerant.

 

 

 Well, when said person has already invaded and murdered people, it's not really pre-crime, is it?

He left the Dales alone.  Even when they left Orlais to fend for itself against the darkspawn.

 

And in fact the isolationist attitude of the Dales arguably did excabrate the situation

 

Of course, the elves reacted by becoming increasingly isolationist, which suited the empire perfectly. Here was a kingdom that spurned diplomatic overtures and that refused to lend aid during the Second Blight when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard. The Dalish kingdom could not be anything but a dormant threat, one that needed to be crushed before it awoke.

 

I am convinced that if Ameridan had lived and brought the Dales and Orlais into closer cooperation, the elves may well still have a homeland.

[LobselVith8]

World of Thedas page 13:

 

"An Exalted March is a call to arms declared by the ruling Divine.  If Drakon's wars were "exalted marches" they weren't official ones.

 

The position of Divine didn't exist at the point of Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors; Drakon's religious wars were about bringing everyone under the worship of his particular Cult of the Maker, leading to him creating the Chantry of Andraste, the position of Divine, and forming the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi. If Chantry history labels his religious wars as 'Exalted Marches' (and this is literally under the codex titled "History of the Chantry" no less), then I don't see what you're contesting.

 

It sounds like the Daughters of Song were a bunch of bacchanalians to me.  But this is just one instance.  I can just as easily point to Ameridan and say Drakon is at least somewhat tolerant.

 

They were apparently a nonviolent religious order (given that they refused to take arms to defend themselves), with members who were murdered by Drakon's forces simply because they didn't share his religious views. That's the opposite of tolerance. And your example is someone subservient to Drakon - someone who wants to see Drakon expand his empire and bring others under the worship of his particular god.

 

He left the Dales alone.  Even when they left Orlais to fend for itself against the darkspawn.

 

Except history notes that it was his issues with the Dales that prevented his expansion into the Free Marches, so that isn't really the case.

 

And in fact the isolationist attitude of the Dales arguably did excabrate the situation

 

The massacre of the Daughters of the Song would suggest otherwise.

 

Of course, the elves reacted by becoming increasingly isolationist, which suited the empire perfectly. Here was a kingdom that spurned diplomatic overtures and that refused to lend aid during the Second Blight when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard. The Dalish kingdom could not be anything but a dormant threat, one that needed to be crushed before it awoke.

 

I can't imagine why the elves wouldn't want to establish diplomatic relations with an emperor who was conquering their neighbors and murdering nonbelievers.

 

I am convinced that if Ameridan had lived and brought the Dales and Orlais into closer cooperation, the elves may well still have a homeland.

 

I'm pretty sure the elves refusal to convert would have been an issue, considering what he did to nonbelievers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Firstly, the Anderfels willing joined the Orlesian Empire because Drakon saved them from utter annihilation in the Second Blight. Keep in mind, they weren't really a fully independent nation at the time, they were a Tevinter province that had been abandoned to it's fate by the Imperium. World of Thedas says the Wardens were so impressed with him relieving the Siege of Weisshaupt that they willing converted to his religion and they all saved what was left of the Anderfels together. It also simply says "The Anderfels converts to the Chantry and becomes part of the Orlesian Empire" in the timeline. By contrast, in the Third Blight the timeline says "The Marcher States, still celebrating, are taken by surprise when the victorious armies of Orlais and Tevinter turn on them." 

 

The History of the Blight section near the end of the book talks about Orlais and Tevinter squandering goodwill from the Free Marches in the Third Blight, but makes no similar note for the Second Blight.

 

I believe the fact that the Anderfels declared independence from Orlais after Drakon's death was a sign that his son was not the shrewd ruler he was, rather than a sign that Orlais had been oppressing the Anderfels for decades. Even to this day, the Anders are still generally the most zealous followers of the Chantry, which is a legacy of Drakon saving them. And they hold an even more longstanding grudge against Tevinter for leaving them to be destroyed by darkspawn.

 

Secondly, even expansionist nations are still fully capable of seeing the value in having allies. It's not as if Drakon wanting to expand the Orlesian Empire's borders automatically meant he had designs on specifically conquering the Dales. Given Ameridan's relationship with him, it seems extremely unlikely that he did. Being a conqeror and being friendly to the Dales are not mutually exclusive. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The position of Divine didn't exist at the point of Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors; Drakon's religious wars were about bringing everyone under the worship of his particular Cult of the Maker, leading to him creating the Chantry of Andraste, the position of Divine, and forming the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi. If Chantry history labels his religious wars as 'Exalted Marches' (and this is literally under the codex titled "History of the Chantry" no less), then I don't see what you're contesting.

 

If there was no Divine, then it wasn't an official Exalted March. Drakon's wars aren't mentioned under the history of Exalted Marches in World of Thedas.

 

They were apparently a nonviolent religious order (given that they refused to take arms to defend themselves), with members who were murdered by Drakon's forces simply because they didn't share his religious views. That's the opposite of tolerance. And your example is someone subservient to Drakon - someone who wants to see Drakon expand his empire and bring others under the worship of his particular god.

 

If you believe that he has a zero tolerance for heretics, then how do you explain him being the oldest friend of someone who worships the Creators along with the Maker? Ameridan wasn't subservient to Drakon. He wasn't even Orlesian. He's from the Dales. And he clearly had a position of leadership there.

 

The massacre of the Daughters of the Song would suggest otherwise.

 

Not really. The elves' isolationism is often mentioned as contributing to relations between Orlais and the Dales becoming frosty. Things like that don't have just one single cause. 

[LobselVith8]

Firstly, the Anderfels willing joined the Orlesian Empire because Drakon saved them from utter annihilation in the Second Blight. Keep in mind, they weren't really a fully independent nation at the time, they were a Tevinter province that had been abandoned to it's fate by the Imperium. World of Thedas says the Wardens were so impressed with him relieving the Siege of Weisshaupt that they willing converted to his religion and they all saved what was left of the Anderfels together. It also simply says "The Anderfels converts to the Chantry and becomes part of the Orlesian Empire" in the timeline.

 

Which doesn't change the fact that Drakon invaded his neighboring city-states in order to actually create the Orlesian Empire.

 

Secondly, even expansionist nations are still fully capable of seeing the value in having allies. It's not as if Drakon wanting to expand the Orlesian Empire's borders automatically meant he had designs on specifically conquering the Dales. Given Ameridan's relationship with him, it seems extremely unlikely that he did. Being a conqeror and being friendly to the Dales are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Drakon's willingness to wipe out a peaceful group of men and women because they didn't share his religious beliefs would cause me to think that perhaps Drakon isn't as benevolent, or as willing to compromise, as you seem to think he is. Drakon's friendship with his supporter Ameridan also doesn't mean that he had the best interests of the Dales in mind.

[Xilizhra]

If you believe that he has a zero tolerance for heretics, then how do you explain him being the oldest friend of someone who worships the Creators along with the Maker? Ameridan wasn't subservient to Drakon. He wasn't even Orlesian. He's from the Dales. And he clearly had a position of leadership there.

To this, I must respond with another question: if you believe that Rendon Howe is an evil envious dickwad, how do you explain him being old friends with Bryce Cousland?