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[LobselVith8]

If there was no Divine, then it wasn't an official Exalted March. Drakon's wars aren't mentioned under the history of Exalted Marches in World of Thedas.

 

Except, according to the Chantry's own history, they were Exalted Marches. Which is why trying to argue this matter is a moot point when his religious wars against his neighbors are addressed as such. And since Drakon is the creator of the Chantry of Andraste and the position of Divine, they didn't exist until he formed the Orlesian Empire.

 

If you believe that he has a zero tolerance for heretics, then how do you explain him being the oldest friend of someone who worships the Creators along with the Maker? Ameridan wasn't subservient to Drakon. He wasn't even Orlesian. He's from the Dales. And he clearly had a position of leadership there.

 

Considering that Ameridan seemed to think positively of Drakon expanding his empire, he seems like someone who supported Drakon's imperialistic ambitions.

 

Not really. The elves' isolationism is often mentioned as contributing to relations between Orlais and the Dales becoming frosty. Things like that don't have just one single cause. 

 

According to the history of Orlais, while the histories of the Dalish and the City elves claim it was the elves' refusal to convert.

[Iakus]

The position of Divine didn't exist at the point of Drakon's Exalted Marches against his neighbors; Drakon's religious wars were about bringing everyone under the worship of his particular Cult of the Maker, leading to him creating the Chantry of Andraste, the position of Divine, and forming the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi. If Chantry history labels his religious wars as 'Exalted Marches' (and this is literally under the codex titled "History of the Chantry" no less), then I don't see what you're contesting.

 

Drakon's wars were not religious.  or not entirely so.  He was bringing the rule of law to a bunch of squabbling city-states and fiefdoms and keeping them from murdering each other.

 

And again, without a Divine to declare them, there is no Exalted March.

 

 

 

They were apparently a nonviolent religious order (given that they refused to take arms to defend themselves), with members who were murdered by Drakon's forces simply because they didn't share his religious views. That's the opposite of tolerance. And your example is someone subservient to Drakon - someone who wants to see Drakon expand his empire and bring others under the worship of his particular god.

 

If DAI has taught me anything, it's not to take the historical record at face value.  If Drakon thought it a good idea to wipe out a cult that lets thier hormoes do their thinking for them, there was probably a reason beyond "HERESY!!!!"

 

And Ameridan was not subservient to Drakon.  He was a Dalish elf and former Inquisitor.  Drakon had zero authority over him.  They were friends.  And quite close.

 

 

 

Except history notes that it was his issues with the Dales that prevented his expansion into the Free Marches, so that isn't really the case.

 

History also says Ameridan was a human warrior.  Plus, I don't recall anything about Drakon wanting to push into the Free Marches.  Except maybe to kill darkspawn.

 

 

 

The massacre of the Daughters of the Song would suggest otherwise.
 

BFFs with Dalish elf.  Better Dalish elf MAGE

 

 

 

I can't imagine why the elves wouldn't want to establish diplomatic relations with an emperor who was conquering their neighbors and murdering nonbelievers.
I'm pretty sure the elves refusal to convert would have been an issue, considering what he did to nonbelievers.

How about an emperor who stood virtually alone against the Blight?

[Iakus]

 

Drakon's willingness to wipe out a peaceful group of men and women because they didn't share his religious beliefs would cause me to think that perhaps Drakon isn't as benevolent, or as willing to compromise, as you seem to think he is. Drakon's friendship with his supporter Ameridan also doesn't mean that he had the best interests of the Dales in mind.

How do you know they were peaceful?

[Xilizhra]

If DAI has taught me anything, it's not to take the historical record at face value.  If Drakon thought it a good idea to wipe out a cult that lets thier hormoes do their thinking for them, there was probably a reason beyond "HERESY!!!!"

That isn't how propaganda works. When the pro-Drakon propaganda is giving no reason for Drakon's actions beyond "kill the sluts," that's probably the reasoning Drakon used.

 

How do you know they were peaceful?

This is an incredible stretch, I know, but I'd say that the fact that they refused to take up arms might be, you know, a factor in that assumption.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

To this, I must respond with another question: if you believe that Rendon Howe is an evil envious dickwad, how do you explain him being old friends with Bryce Cousland?

 

I don't believe Rendon was like that for the entirety of his life (at least not openly). And given that Bryce was the victim of Rendon Howe being an evil envious dickwad, I don't think the Ameridan/Drakon friendship comparison really holds up.

 

 

Which doesn't change the fact that Drakon invaded his neighboring city-states in order to actually create the Orlesian Empire.

 

 

Drakon's willingness to wipe out a peaceful group of men and women because they didn't share his religious beliefs would cause me to think that perhaps Drakon isn't as benevolent, or as willing to compromise, as you seem to think he is. Drakon's friendship with his supporter Ameridan also doesn't mean that he had the best interests of the Dales in mind.

 

My opinion on Drakon was always that he was not someone that can be neatly categorized into being a benevolent or malevolent. He did a lot of things in his lifetime, some heroic, so not.

[Xilizhra]

I don't believe Rendon was like that for the entirety of his life (at least not openly). And given that Bryce was the victim of Rendon Howe being an evil envious dickwad, I don't think the Ameridan/Drakon friendship comparison really holds up.

Ameridan disappeared before it ever came up. But the point is that not all friendships are genuine.

[LobselVith8]

Drakon's wars were not religious.  or not entirely so.  He was bringing the rule of law to a bunch of squabbling city-states and fiefdoms and keeping them from murdering each other.

 

And again, without a Divine to declare them, there is no Exalted March.

 

Apparently, the history of the Chantry doesn't agree with you: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

 

If DAI has taught me anything, it's not to take the historical record at face value.  If Drakon thought it a good idea to wipe out a cult that lets thier hormoes do their thinking for them, there was probably a reason beyond "HERESY!!!!"

 

Their history literally says that they did nothing harmful beside have a different religious view than Drakon, and it's not even treated as someone out of the ordinary. Since we know there were multiple religious groups, it means the Daughters of the Song weren't the only ones who suffered this fate. And, once again, you're pretty much arguing against what we already know: Drakon's forces wiped out the Daughters of the Song, and they didn't even raise up arms against the people who killed them.

 

And Ameridan was not subservient to Drakon.  He was a Dalish elf and former Inquisitor.  Drakon had zero authority over him.  They were friends.  And quite close.

 

Ameridan seems to support Drakon expanding his empire, given his dialogue to a non-Dalish Inquisitor.

 

How about an emperor who stood virtually alone against the Blight?

 

Who used it to expand his empire further.

[Iakus]

That isn't how propaganda works. When the pro-Drakon propaganda is giving no reason for Drakon's actions beyond "kill the sluts," that's probably the reasoning Drakon used.

 

Propaganda works by not digging into the motivations or details and simply using sound bites as justification

 

 

This is an incredible stretch, I know, but I'd say that the fact that they refused to take up arms might be, you know, a factor in that assumption.

This is a world with demons of hunger and desire as well as blood magic.  That the Daughters might have been the Thedas equivalent of Maenads is entirely possible.

[LobselVith8]

How do you know they were peaceful?

 

The Daughters of the Song clearly weren't violent, and seemed to be peaceful from what history accounts. It reads, "The Daughters of Song were wiped out by the righteous forces of Emperor Drakon during his campaigns to unite all of Orlais. When the emperor's forces sacked the village, the Daughters would not arm themselves and were either killed or captured. The village was destroyed, and the cult never recovered."​

[Iakus]

Ameridan disappeared before it ever came up. But the point is that not all friendships are genuine.

Possible.  But I don't think Drakon could have maintained such a facade as long as he did.  By the time Ameridan disappeared Orlais was already established, the Nevarran Accords signed, and the Templar Order and Seekers already establsihed.

[Xilizhra]

Propaganda works by not digging into the motivations or details and simply using sound bites as justification

 

This is a world with demons of hunger and desire as well as blood magic.  That the Daughters might have been the Thedas equivalent of Maenads is entirely possible.

Propaganda also works by not downplaying the negative qualities of the people you're trying to make look bad. If the Daughters of Song, as you propose, tore enemies and civilians apart bodily in a distinctly demonic manner, the Chantry would never, ever forget it, or let anyone else do so. If this account was anti-Drakon, you'd have a point, but these are people who want to make him look as good as possible and the Daughters as bad as possible, and this is all the came up with. There is absolutely no basis to think that the Daughters of Song might have ever done that.

 

 

Possible.  But I don't think Drakon could have maintained such a facade as long as he did.  By the time Ameridan disappeared Orlais was already established, the Nevarran Accords signed, and the Templar Order and Seekers already establsihed.

He's an Orlesian.

[LobselVith8]

My opinion on Drakon was always that he was not someone that can be neatly categorized into being a benevolent or malevolent. He did a lot of things in his lifetime, some heroic, so not.

 

While his willingness to murder an entire village of people for not following his religious views makes him villainous to me, much less that the account doesn't even treat it like it was something out of the ordinary during his religious wars to create an empire under his particular brand of Andrastian faith. You don't have to share my view, but I don't have to share yours, either.

[Iakus]

Apparently, the history of the Chantry doesn't agree with you: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

 

Then the writer of that Codex is prone to hyperbole, because Exalted March has a very specific meaning.

 

 

 

Their history literally says that they did nothing harmful beside have a different religious view than Drakon, and it's not even treated as someone out of the ordinary. Since we know there were multiple religious groups, it means the Daughters of the Song weren't the only ones who suffered this fate. And, once again, you're pretty much arguing against what we already know: Drakon's forces wiped out the Daughters of the Song, and they didn't even raise up arms against the people who killed them.

 

I'm arguing nothing of the kind.  I'm saying there is probably more to the story.  Don't take everything written in-universe at face value.

 

 

 

Ameridan seems to support Drakon expanding his empire, given his dialogue to a non-Dalish Inquisitor.

 

And?  You think if Drakon had turned on the Dales Ameridan would have stood for that?

 

 

Who used it to expand his empire further.

And?  He's the only military force outside Tevinter (which wasn't doing nearly as well) that was actually fighting the Blight.  Someone has to keep people safe.  Should they be like Tevinter and let people die to the darkspawn while Orlais looks to its own borders?

 

 

[Iakus]

Propaganda also works by not downplaying the negative qualities of the people you're trying to make look bad. If the Daughters of Song, as you propose, tore enemies and civilians apart bodily in a distinctly demonic manner, the Chantry would never, ever forget it, or let anyone else do so. If this account was anti-Drakon, you'd have a point, but these are people who want to make him look as good as possible and the Daughters as bad as possible, and this is all the came up with. There is absolutely no basis to think that the Daughters of Song might have ever done that.

 

 

 

This is one account which is clearly dismissive of any Andrastrean religion not Chantry.  If we took Red Crossing at such a level of simplicity then the Dalish were clearly at fault and deserved to be stomped into the ground.

 

 

He's an Orlesian.

So's Leliana

[Xilizhra]

This is one account which is clearly dismissive of any Andrastrean religion not Chantry.  If we took Red Crossing at such a level of simplicity then the Dalish were clearly at fault and deserved to be stomped into the ground.

Yes, precisely. So the Daughters of Song were probably better than they seemed, which is already pretty damn benign.

 

 

So's Leliana

And I absolutely don't doubt her ability to keep up a facade.

[LobselVith8]

Then the writer of that Codex is prone to hyperbole, because Exalted March has a very specific meaning.

 

The author is Gentivi, who the creators used to also give the 'real history' of the original Inqusition.

 

I'm arguing nothing of the kind.  I'm saying there is probably more to the story.  Don't take everything written in-universe at face value.

 

As told by a member of the Chantry - the very organization Drakon created. It's not as if it's coming from a source biased against Drakon (considering how the Chantry revers him).

 

And?  You think if Drakon had turned on the Dales Ameridan would have stood for that?

 

Who knows. He clearly thought Drakon expanded the reach of his empire if you're playing as a non-human and non-elven Inquisitor, so he's certainly not blind to Drakon's goals.

 

And?  He's the only military force outside Tevinter (which wasn't doing nearly as well) that was actually fighting the Blight.  Someone has to keep people safe.  Should they be like Tevinter and let people die to the darkspawn while Orlais looks to its own borders?

 

I'm simply saying Drakon's actions doesn't seem as altruistic as you seem to paint it as.

[Iakus]

Yes, precisely. So the Daughters of Song were probably better than they seemed, which is already pretty damn benign.

 

And you have no more evidence of that than I do that they were malevolent.  We have a few lines from an extremely dismissive author.

 

 

And I absolutely don't doubt her ability to keep up a facade.

And Leliana is an extremely tolerant Andrastrian.  No chance Drakon might have been the same?

[LobselVith8]

Yes, precisely. So the Daughters of Song were probably better than they seemed, which is already pretty damn benign.

 

It's not as if this is the first time that the Chantry thinks positively of the deaths of nonbelievers. The Chantry thought that Ser Mhemet killing elves was sufficient enough to reward with being named Anointed, after all: "Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."

 

And I absolutely don't doubt her ability to keep up a facade.

 

Drakon could have also thought that Ameridan might be useful in bringing the Dales under the authority of the Orlesian Empire.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except, according to the Chantry's own history, they were Exalted Marches. Which is why trying to argue this matter is a moot point when his religious wars against his neighbors are addressed as such. And since Drakon is the creator of the Chantry of Andraste and the position of Divine, they didn't exist until he formed the Orlesian Empire.

 

I'd say that since it's not mentioned in World of Thedas in the Exalted March section (and unlike Codex entries it's impartial), Chantry history doesn't really count them. It's not like there aren't Chantry figures that only acknowledge Exalted Marches that are called by the Divine. Giselle for instance. 

 

According to the history of Orlais, while the histories of the Dalish and the City elves claim it was the elves' refusal to convert.

 

It doesn't have to be either-or. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

He's an Orlesian.

 

And Orlesians are an inherently untrustworthy and deceitful race now? From what we know of him, his attitude towards the Game is likely to be not unlike Gaspard's. It is hardly fair to just assume that Drakon's friendship with Ameridan must have been like Howe and Bryce Cousland.

[LobselVith8]

I'd say that since it's not mentioned in World of Thedas in the Exalted March section (and unlike Codex entries it's impartial), Chantry history doesn't really count them. It's not like there aren't Chantry figures that only acknowledge Exalted Marches that are called by the Divine. Giselle for instance. 

 

WoT doesn't include a lot of things, so that's hardly conclusive proof of anything.

 

It doesn't have to be either-or. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Except that there's more than one account to why hostilities started up, which was the point. Acting as if the Orlesian account is the only one is intellectually dishonest.

 

And Orlesians are an inherently untrustworthy and deceitful race now? From what we know of him, his attitude towards the Game is likely to be not unlike Gaspard's. It is hardly fair to just assume that Drakon's friendship with Ameridan must have been like Howe and Bryce Cousland.

 

Perhaps Xil meant it in the sense that she would have doubts about trusting someone who was conquering, and forcibly converting, her neighbors.

[Iakus]

The author is Gentivi, who the creators used to also give the 'real history' of the original Inqusition.

 

Okay, I'll file that right next to Qunari being bronze-skinned giants

 

 

 

As told by a member of the Chantry - the very organization Drakon created. It's not as if it's coming from a source biased against Drakon (considering how the Chantry revers him).

 

No it's coming from a dismissive source that doesn't go into any detail whatsoever.

 

 

 

Who knows. He clearly thought Drakon expanded the reach of his empire if you're playing as a non-human and non-elven Inquisitor, so he's certainly not blind to Drakon's goals.

 

So?  Drakon is also bringing something like civilization to a world after centuries of unrest, Blight, and Tevinter tyranny.  From a certain point of view, he's less Napoleon and more Arthurian

 

 

I'm simply saying Drakon's actions doesn't seem as altruistic as you seem to paint it as.

Drakon strikes me as a complicated guy.  His friendship with Ameridan demonstrates that.  Ameridan is pretty much everything Drakon should hate if he's this intolerant zealous caricature he's being portrayed as.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

WoT doesn't include a lot of things, so that's hardly conclusive proof of anything.

 

I'm specifically refer to a section that listed all the Exalted Marches that ever took place.

 

 

Except that there's more than one account to why hostilities started up, which was the point. Acting as if the Orlesian account is the only one is intellectually dishonest.

 

Yes, I know. Aren't you the one acting like only one account (the Dalish one) is accurate? I was saying that both versions were probably true. 

[LobselVith8]

Okay, I'll file that right next to Qunari being bronze-skinned giants

 

In other words, you're going to ignore that the religious wars Drakon waged against his neighbors are historically labeled as 'Exalted Marches', and that no developers have said otherwise so far. Okay.

 

No it's coming from a dismissive source that doesn't go into any detail whatsoever.

 

 

You mean that the story of the massacre of the Daughters of the Song is coming from a member of the Andrastian Chantry, which calls into question the validity of your complaint.

 

So?  Drakon is also bringing something like civilization to a world after centuries of unrest, Blight, and Tevinter tyranny.  From a certain point of view, he's less Napoleon and more Arthurian

 

Excusing the conquest of other nations and the murder of people who follow a different religion in the name of "civilization" doesn't really work for me.

 

Drakon strikes me as a complicated guy.  His friendship with Ameridan demonstrates that.  Ameridan is pretty much everything Drakon should hate if he's this intolerant zealous caricature he's being portrayed as.

 

Ameridan's willingness to follow the faith of the Maker and Andraste, and his support for Drakon expanding his empire, doesn't strike me the same way. I suppose we can agree to disagree.

[Iakus]

In other words, you're going to ignore that the religious wars Drakon waged against his neighbors are historically labeled as 'Exalted Marches', and that no developers have said otherwise so far. Okay.

 

 

 

Not ignore.  Acknowledge that this single codex entry may be in error, or has been retconned away.  WoT listed all the "official" Exalted Marches since Andraste's time, and Drakon's unification of Orlais is not one of them.

 

 

 

You mean that the story of the massacre of the Daughters of the Song is coming from a member of the Andrastian Chantry, which calls into question the validity of your complaint.

 

That one yes.  There are other facts in evidence that demonstrates that Drakon was not so simplistic as to murder a village simply because they were "heretics"

 

 

 

Excusing the conquest of other nations and the murder of people who follow a different religion in the name of "civilization" doesn't really work for me.

 

How about bringing them under your rule so they won't conquer other nations and murder people?

 

 

Ameridan's willingness to follow the faith of the Maker and Andraste, and his support for Drakon expanding his empire, doesn't strike me the same way. I suppose we can agree to disagree

The thing is, Ameridan's faith wasn't Drakon's faith, belief in Andraste notwithstanding.  If it were, he would have rejected the Creators and joined the newly-made Circle of Magi.  But he didn't.  And that does not seem to have harmed their friendship.

 

Also remember, Ameridan was Drakon's contemporary.  He knew what the world was like at that time. If he approved of Drakon's actions, he must have had reason.  And again, if anyone would have had reason to be worried, it was a Dalish elf mage.

[Gervaise]

World of Thedas 2 has this passage in the entry on the Emperor Drakon:  "He began his holy quest at the ripe old age of sixteen by taking to the battlefield.  At that time, each clan had its own variety of the cult of Andraste, its own rituals, traditions and versions of Andraste's words.  Young Drakon unified them by the sword."

 

That is pretty damning and unequivocal.   This was prior to the actual founding of the Chantry, so technically his actions would not count as official Exalted Marches of that organisation but quite clearly Drakon intended them to be such.   It talks about him conquering the city states, turning them into the Empire of Orlais and also pressing into modern day Nevarra and even Ferelden, somehow either by-passing the Dales or with their permission.    He stomped out any lingering worship of old gods, Alamarri and Ciriane deities and any other cults of Andraste he came up against.    

 

Is it any wonder that the elves of the Dales started having doubts about their neighbour?