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[LobselVith8]

I'm specifically refer to a section that listed all the Exalted Marches that ever took place.

 

WoT omitted a lot of information. Despite having a section on the Dalish, for example, it left out a lot, and it truncated the entire conflict of the war between Orlais and the Dales in a very brief paragraph. Pointing out that something was omitted in WoT isn't really proof of anything.

 

Yes, I know. Aren't you the one acting like only one account (the Dalish one) is accurate? I was saying that both versions were probably true. 

 

No, which you should already know if you actually read what I wrote on the subject and why I brought it up. For your convenience, I pointed out that there's more than just the Orlesian historical claim.

[Iakus]

World of Thedas 2 has this passage in the entry on the Emperor Drakon:  "He began his holy quest at the ripe old age of sixteen by taking to the battlefield.  At that time, each clan had its own variety of the cult of Andraste, its own rituals, traditions and versions of Andraste's words.  Young Drakon unified them by the sword."

 

That is pretty damning and unequivocal.   This was prior to the actual founding of the Chantry, so technically his actions would not count as official Exalted Marches of that organisation but quite clearly Drakon intended them to be such.   It talks about him conquering the city states, turning them into the Empire of Orlais and also pressing into modern day Nevarra and even Ferelden, somehow either by-passing the Dales or with their permission.    He stomped out any lingering worship of old gods, Alamarri and Ciriane deities and any other cults of Andraste he came up against.    

 

Is it any wonder that the elves of the Dales started having doubts about their neighbour? 

Yup, he built himself an empire by the sword.  There is no doubt about it.  

 

As to stamping out all variations of Andrastrianism, are we sure he didn't incorporate aspects of it into the Cult of the Maker in creating the Modern Chantry?  That's been known to happen in RL history after all.

[LobselVith8]

Yup, he built himself an empire by the sword.  There is no doubt about it.  

 

As to stamping out all variations of Andrastrianism, are we sure he didn't incorporate aspects of it into the Cult of the Maker in creating the Modern Chantry?  That's been known to happen in RL history after all.

 

We do know that Drakon's forces massacred the Daughters of the Song, who followed a different form of Andrastian than Drakon (and also refused to bear arms against the people coming to kill them), so I'm not inclined to think so.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

WoT omitted a lot of information. Despite having a section on the Dalish, for example, it left out a lot, and it truncated the entire conflict of the war between Orlais and the Dales in a very brief paragraph. Pointing out that something was omitted in WoT isn't really proof of anything.

 

 

No, which you should already know if you actually read what I wrote on the subject and why I brought it up. For your convenience, I pointed out that there's more than just the Orlesian historical claim.

 

This isn't because there was a paragraph that didn't go into a lot of detail. The Exalted March section was a bullet point list.

 

You were dismissing the idea that The Dales isolationism contributed in any way to deterioration of relations between Orlais and Dales, simply on the basis that it was reported by the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

This isn't because there was a paragraph that didn't go into a lot of detail. The Exalted March section was a bullet point list.

 

WoT doesn't go into great detail on many issues, has mistakes (which the developers have admitted), and truncates a lot of matters. The brevity of the Dalish entry is simply one example of that.

 

You were dismissing the idea that The Dales isolationism contributed in any way to deterioration of relations between Orlais and Dales, simply on the basis that it was reported by the Chantry.

 

I addressed that, while the Orlesian version blames the isolationism of the elves, the City elves and the Dalish claim that it had to due with the elves refusal to convert to the human religion. We also have Drakon conquering his neighbors at the time (who were also the neighbors of the Dales); I can imagine any rational person would be wary when something like that is going on.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't really have a reason to think it was a mistake not to include Drakon's wars in the Exalted Marches section. It wasn't mentioned by Bioware as a mistake at any time since. Especially since the book also defines Exalted Marches as being called by a Divine.

 

My point is that the claim that elves were isolationist is not invalid because the Dalish reported another reason for the tensions. The reasons aren't even contradictory.

[LobselVith8]

I think the Night Elves were a convenient plot device in the Stolen Throne that the writers then chose to forget about in the main game.   Really you'd think there would have been a faction of vigilante elves creating havoc in Ferelden after they were so betrayed by the leaders they helped to bring to power.   Not only were Ferelden laws still prejudiced against elves; it is an offence for an elf or anyone else to kill someone in their defence, but Maric and Loghain had a debt of honour to improve things for the city elves and completely ignored it.   

 

I presume the law about defending elves is the reason Duncan just stood by and let Vaughan do what he did in the city elf origin and didn't lift a finger to prevent it.    It had nothing to do with Grey Wardens being non-political because actually what Vaughan was doing was an offence against common decency and in fact the teachings of Andraste in the Chant of Light, but if taking action was in fact against the law of the land, then interfering would have been a political act, something he was specifically not to do.

 

Then we have Loghain justifying selling the elves into slavery because the life in the alienage is so bad they will be better off as slaves in Tevinter.    I was incensed enough at this before I learnt about the Night Elves and what Maric and Loghain owed them for their assistance in Stolen Throne.   In my city elf play through (my first run was as a Dalish) I role played that my female Tabris was aware of the history of the Night Elves and that her mother had probably been one of them.   Hence the martial skills she endowed on her daughter.     When Anora started boasting how she had really been ruling the kingdom instead of Cailen, she was able to think "So you are responsible for the state of the alienage and the laws that allow people like Vaughan to operate without any come back whatsoever?   Right, in that case you can sink along with your treacherous and ungrateful father." 

 

Raven Tabris was a pretty unforgiving city elf.     She forced Alistair to do the Dark Ritual, hooked up with Zevran and the two of them are off together looking for that cure.   If she comes back and finds things have deteriorated for the city elves in her absence, she will not be best pleased.   She won't be happy how the Grey Wardens messed up, considering what a good job she did up north in Vigil's Keep.   I don't think she is going to like the way Solas is deceiving the city elves either and would welcome being able to deliver her thoughts on the matter via her knife "Fen'Harel's tooth".

 

I also utilized the history of the Night Elves with my Surana Warden; I imagined that his mother was a Night Elf who fought to help free Ferelden along with the other elves of the rebellion. They were clearly never rewarded for their service. Grew up in the Denerim Alienage, was forcibly taken by templars at a young age when he manifested his magical abilities in the Alienage.

 

Given the "failure" of certain royal boons to manifest (when the developers elected to change the outcomes despite what the Epilogue slides read), I wonder if the teyrnir of Gwaren would be given to the elven Hero of Ferelden in compensation for the Crown in failing to deliver what was promised?

[Qun00]

I don't quite understand why fans protest against the oh so horrible portrayal of the Dalish as of late.

Apparently, it is terrible that they are wrong about so many things. And yet, there was a big fat clue right in the beginning of the Dalish origin when the narrator says they "cling to their half-forgotten lore".

Did anyone expect the future reveal about the ancient elves to show us that the Dalish were 90% right and just missed a few details? Of course the holes would be much bigger than that.

And that's fine. Really, it is. The Dalish are trying to achieve the impossible and what little they know already is a true feat.

Not to mention that everyone is wrong about their ****. The dwarves know little about the titans. Tevinter's elite still believes their forebears destroyed Arlathan. Andrastianism is challenged every now and then.

Then we have this huge fuss about the three mages rule. Tons of people crying retcon. Whatever may be the case, I don't think that paints the Dalish as mage haters, but smart and careful.

While it may not seem that way in combat, lorewise abominations are very powerful and could easily overwhelm a handful of elves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's one thing to be wrong about things. There's a lot of things they could have been wrong about. But the other factions don't have almost their entire culture reduced to being a lie with the symbols of evil false gods stamped on their faces.

[Qun00]

The other factions don't face the challenge of recovering information about a civilisation that left almost nothing behind after their fall.

Apples and oranges here.

[LobselVith8]

I don't quite understand why fans protest against the oh so horrible portrayal of the Dalish as of late.

 

I'm going to try and address your questions seriously, then.

 

Apparently, it is terrible that they are wrong about so many things. And yet, there was a big fat clue right in the beginning of the Dalish origin when the narrator says they "cling to their half-forgotten lore".

 

I actually find it confusing that the narrative seems to frame it as though they got "everything wrong", yet the Dalish knew Arlathan existed, that the ancient elves were immortal, that there was a war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, and that Fen'Harel trapped the Creators. That's hardly everything. In comparison, when Andrastians get it wrong - like with the protagonist being met by a spirit, rather than Andraste - the narrative and the character frames it as though they could be right after a fashion. That's the kind of imbalance that some people criticize the writing for.

 

Did anyone expect the future reveal about the ancient elves to show us that the Dalish were 90% right and just missed a few details? Of course the holes would be much bigger than that.

 

Again, it's about the presentation. People also addressed the lack of elven content in the Dales, the complete dismissal of the Dalish receiving the Hinterlands in the post-Dalish Boon worldstate, the "three mage" recton with the Dalish, the incessant bombardment of anti-Dalish comments while your comments laud the Chantry of Andraste and the Andrastian faith, ect.

 

Then we have this huge fuss about the three mages rule. Tons of people crying retcon. Whatever may be the case, I don't think that paints the Dalish as mage haters, but smart and careful.

 

It is a recton - it explicitly contradicts that magic is supposed to be "dying out" among the Dalish, and that this is the reason why some mages are moved between clans, as Merrill was. We also know that Zathrian's clan had more than three mages (Keeper, First, Second, the halla herder, and arguably the Healer since he notes that the only reason he follows the clan is because he feels indebted to them - and the clan speaks positively about him when you inquire about him); Merrill also mentions that any child who showed magical ability was apprenticed to the Keeper, and she says that it's alien to her that the Chantry would put mages away in Circles where they can't do any good.

 

As noted, "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

 

While it may not seem that way in combat, lorewise abominations are very powerful and could easily overwhelm a handful of elves.

 

The issue of abominations in a respective clan was brought up in Dragon Age II by Merrill, so I don't see why you think it's incompatible with the lore before the Inquisition recton.

[Qun00]

TL;DR

[jlb524]

The Dalish got a surprising amount right considering the ancient elven civilization was obliterated. 

[Hellion Rex]

The Dalish got a surprising amount right considering the ancient elven civilization was obliterated.

Well, what really did they get right though?
The names of their gods
The ancient Elves had very strong magic
Their capital was Arlathan

What else?

Because to be honest, they got a lot wrong, which is understandable given the circumstances.
I struggle to think of what they got right.

[LobselVith8]

Well, what really did they get right though?
The names of their gods
The ancient Elves had very strong magic
Their capital was Arlathan

What else?

 

Well, the ancient elves were immortal, they wielded magical ability, there was a war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, Fen'Harel trapped the Creators - so despite the claim from some people that the Dalish got "everything wrong" that's clearly not the case.

[jlb524]

Well, what really did they get right though?
The names of their gods
The ancient Elves had very strong magic
Their capital was Arlathan

What else?

 

Elves were immortal and they all used magic.

Fen'harel did 'lock their gods away' and was responsible for things going to crap.

The know that the vallaslin is important and tied to their gods (just missing the detail about slavery).

 

Sure, they got some details wrong but these are things that happened a long time ago and Tevinter helped wiped out any trace of their history remaining.

[LobselVith8]

Elves were immortal and they all used magic.

Fen'harel did 'lock their gods away' and was responsible for things going to crap.

The know that the vallaslin is important and tied to their gods (just missing the detail about slavery).

 

Sure, they got some details wrong but these are things that happened a long time ago and Tevinter helped wiped out any trace of their history remaining.

 

It's also not as though the Dalish claimed they knew everything there was to know about the past; Merrill says as much when she admits that they don't know all the names of the Forgotten Ones, or who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. Even the Dalish codex entry on the fall of Arlathan makes it clear that it's a "legend" and that it could be wrong.

 

As for vallaslin, it's cultural reappropriation - what it meant during the time of Arlathan isn't what it means now to the Dalish (which is also what Lavellan can explain to Solas in dialogue).

[Steelcan]

oh goodie Lobs is back

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I'm longing for the day when a human Andrastrian Inquisitor is made aware of the true history of Andraste (as constantly found in codices and the World of Thedas) and then is forced to say by the writers "So the Chantry got it wrong!"    However, since this didn't occur despite the opportunities presented in DAI, I have to assume it is never going to happen.    Still one can dream.

 

It think we might very well see this in the future. Bioware has mentioned before that Andraste is modeled after Joan of Arc and many things Joan of Arc did are simply myths and she was quite a different person in real life.

 

http://www.history.c...out-joan-of-arc

 

Notice the many parallels Andraste has with Joan of Arc. Like Andraste, Joan of Arc saw visions. Like Andraste, Joan of Arc was never actually the commander of her army. Given that we are heading to Tevinter, where they have a different view of Andraste and the Maker, it would not surprise me if we learn more about them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ameridan was Andrastrian, but his own personal flavor of it.  He did not follow the Cult of Andraste or the Chantry, but believed Andraste ascended to godhood and he worshiped her alongside the Creators.  Note the shrine he built to both Andraste and GIlain'nain (whom Dalish stories say was an elf who similarly achieved godhood)  That Drakon was good friends with Ameridan regardless speaks much of his character and religious tolerance, I think.

 

The fascinating thing here is that we don't really fully know what happened to Andraste, who she really is, what is the Maker, etc. This is because the Andrastian Chantry as we know it today came 200 years after Andraste's death. In a real world parallel, the Quran was written and compiled 200 years after Muhammad's death. Information would have been distorted, biased, whitewashed, exaggerated and so on.

 

This means that Andraste and the Maker are open to many interpretations and flavors with the Chantry's version simply being the dominant one through use of violent force with started with Kordillus Drakon. For example, the Blades of Hessarian and the Daughters of Song are both different groups who viewed Andraste and the Maker differently but are either wiped out or driven to isolation.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ughters_of_Song

 

http://dragonage.wik...orgotten_Faiths

 

It also means that Ameridan's version of Andraste and the Maker is perfectly valid, just like how the Daughters of Song is valid as well but alas, they did not use violent force to preach it and spread it. The reality is that Thedas, like the real world, is a reality where might makes right. Hence, religion is spread by the sword.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't quite understand why fans protest against the oh so horrible portrayal of the Dalish as of late.

Apparently, it is terrible that they are wrong about so many things. And yet, there was a big fat clue right in the beginning of the Dalish origin when the narrator says they "cling to their half-forgotten lore".

Did anyone expect the future reveal about the ancient elves to show us that the Dalish were 90% right and just missed a few details? Of course the holes would be much bigger than that.

And that's fine. Really, it is. The Dalish are trying to achieve the impossible and what little they know already is a true feat.

Not to mention that everyone is wrong about their ****. The dwarves know little about the titans. Tevinter's elite still believes their forebears destroyed Arlathan. Andrastianism is challenged every now and then.

Then we have this huge fuss about the three mages rule. Tons of people crying retcon. Whatever may be the case, I don't think that paints the Dalish as mage haters, but smart and careful.

While it may not seem that way in combat, lorewise abominations are very powerful and could easily overwhelm a handful of elves.

 

Andrastianism might actually be completely false and misrepresented for all we know. As I stated previously, the Andrastian Chantry as we know it today came 200 years after Andraste's death and it was a specific interpretation and view of Andraste that was supported, championed and pushed forth by Kordillus Drakon through use of violent force.

 

For all we know, Andraste could have been a female Alamarri mage who found a very old and very powerful benevolent Fade spirit, something as old as the Nightmare or perhaps even older, maybe the Sun that Ancient Elven legends speak of. She also probably interacted a lot with it and might have even had Solas style Fade sex with it. Later on, she recruited Elves and might have even had an affair with Shartan for all we know. What, she was from a barbarian tribe and it would not surprise me if Maferath and her were in an open marriage.

 

Point is, 200 years is a very long time and many things can and will have gotten distorted, misrepresented, exaggerated, whitewashed, etc. All we really know is that a female Alamarri barbarian named Andraste experienced something and this later resulted in her and her tribe starting to wage war against the Imperium. Along the way, she recruited allies including Elves and eventually the army led by her husband Maferath was successful in defeating the Imperium. However, Andraste was captured, tortured and later reportedly burnt at the stake.

[veeia]

Personally my biggest issue with the portrayal of the Dalish in Inquisition is the lack of Dalish voices despite their beliefs being so important to the story & the reveals so potentially huge for their culture. Even if you play as Dalish, the only way to really have a meaningful Dalish voice in the mix, the reveals there are given priority to Dorian and Sera. I assume that part of the story was written with Merrill in mind, since it was part of the Exalted March content, but since we don't have a Dalish companion or adviser there, there's no one to really bring context or flesh out that aspect. I'm not even the biggest fan of the Dalish (or elves in general, I like them, but I'm not a big elf fan like some of you guys!) but I felt it was unfairly balanced there. Especially when you consider it was originally written for human only.

 

The magic retcon is annoying, but I assume it was to ensure that there was no obvious viable alternative to the Circle (in terms of an existing situation where mages existed freely and weren't a problem) so that the Mage-Templar conflict had more legs to stand on.

[Gervaise]

I hope that when we go to Tevinter that will be the opportunity to discover more about what really happened with Andraste.   Dorian admits that he isn't really interested in religion so has probably never bothered himself unduly with looking up the history of their Chantry in the Archives, which gives them the excuse to have the big reveal when you get to Tevinter.   There have been enough hints and explicit pieces of information up to now:

 

Back in DAO we have that book about Andraste really being a mage and Dorian saying how the Tevinter think of her as "one of us", which I think means not just mortal but definitely a mage.   This would explain all her voices and visions because she was likely not just a mage but a Dreamer mage.   Plus the reason they burnt her - so a spirit can't possess her corpse (or the one already there is forced to leave).   They didn't want to risk the Maker (faith spirit) keeping her alive or resurrecting her.   (I'm sure Wynne wasn't the first person to be saved in that way)

 

We have our knowledge of both Rivaini wise women and the traditions of the Avaar, who have the same origins as the Alamarri, with regard to people being positively possessed by benign spirits in order to impart knowledge.

 

We have the alternate history of the Battle of Valarian Fields given by Sister Petrine that seems to hint that not everything in the Chant is true to history.    Then there are the references in game and in World of Thedas 2 to the fact that Andraste never got further north than modern day Nevarra, was captured from a stronghold there and that Maferath did this because he was worried about continuing their crusade into the heart of the Imperium, so he struck the deal with Hessarian so that he could keep what they had gained in the south (where Tevinter influence had been on the wane anyway) and avoid a costly and likely suicidal campaign in the north.

 

The other thing we will also likely discover is what really happened in Arlathan Forest.    It is clear from what Abelas said that the real Arlathan was long gone by then.   That makes sense considering it was likely built on magic from the Fade and so simply raising the Veil brought it crashing down, without the civil war that followed.   So what was left in Arlathan Forest was likely a remnant of the civilisation, much like the Temple of Mythal, dedicated to one or more of the Creators.    Which when you think about it makes the Imperium at the height of its power seem pretty pathetic if it was unable to subdue this remnant of the elven empire by normal means, the elves withstanding their army for 6 long years, during which much of the Imperium's resources were drained, until finally the Magisters decided the only way to resolve it was to bury the problem, literally.    And as we know from the story of Barindur, what occurred there may not have been due to their actions at all.   It could have been a natural disaster or possibly all that magical activity upset a sleeping Titan, thus resulting in a rather large earthquake

 

So if the elves have had a lot of their lore rubbed in their faces, I think it is likely a similar thing is going to happen in the future with human history, certainly that of Tevinter but hopefully that of the southern Chantry too.     Let us not forget the fact that we discovered in the Descent that the Shaperate aren't as fastidious about recording and preserving their history as we had previously been led to believe and so there is a whole chunk of dwarven history to be brought to light.   Plus, there is the big mystery about the origins of the kossith/qunari.   

[The Ascendant]

I am curious why the Elves acting in concord with Andraste and her army instead of fighting on their own. I know that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but what reason did the Elves have to trust a horde of barbarians?

[Qun00]

Andrastianism might actually be completely false and misrepresented for all we know. As I stated previously, the Andrastian Chantry as we know it today came 200 years after Andraste's death and it was a specific interpretation and view of Andraste that was supported, championed and pushed forth by Kordillus Drakon through use of violent force.

For all we know, Andraste could have been a female Alamarri mage who found a very old and very powerful benevolent Fade spirit, something as old as the Nightmare or perhaps even older, maybe the Sun that Ancient Elven legends speak of. She also probably interacted a lot with it and might have even had Solas style Fade sex with it. Later on, she recruited Elves and might have even had an affair with Shartan for all we know. What, she was from a barbarian tribe and it would not surprise me if Maferath and her were in an open marriage.

Point is, 200 years is a very long time and many things can and will have gotten distorted, misrepresented, exaggerated, whitewashed, etc. All we really know is that a female Alamarri barbarian named Andraste experienced something and this later resulted in her and her tribe starting to wage war against the Imperium. Along the way, she recruited allies including Elves and eventually the army led by her husband Maferath was successful in defeating the Imperium. However, Andraste was captured, tortured and later reportedly burnt at the stake.

See? Everyone will get their turn. Just sit back and wait.