1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

What does that have to do with wanting to help the Dalish?

I am a "city elves are our people too" kinda guy.

[LobselVith8]

I am a "city elves are our people too" kinda guy.

 

And while I certainly like having the opportunity to help the elves of Orlais and the Dales through supporting Briala (even though her story barely exists and we get ridiculously little elven content that explores the perspectives and plight of the elves of the Dales), we don't have the option to help the Dalish in the same capacity we do to help entire nations of humans (like Ferelden and Orlais); even Mahariel was able to get a land for the Dalish (before the recton that contradicted the positive outcome if Lanaya became Keeper of her clan).

[In Exile]

Ameridan's memories explicitly say Telana "should be at Halamshiral reminding our people of our alliance with Drakon." And Ameridan himself was an important figure in the Dales.

Unless you're suggesting American was a traitor to the Dales or something, it's pretty clear that both nations were allies (even if some weren't happy about it). The fact that Ameridan is Andrastian also is something that suggests the Cult of the Maker is not something that was unheard of among the population of the Dales. Especially since Shartan himself was a convert and whoever wrote the Canticle of Shartan was also probably an elven Andrastian.

Frankly, I think first hand info from Jaws of Hakkon trumps anything from the guidebooks for Dragon Age: Origins.

It's not just that it trumps - I haven't read those guides myself but a major aim of DA is to play with unreliable narrators in history. I am aware that WOT at times is written in a way that seemingly goes away from this but it may well be an editorial error in that regard. It's entirely possible the Orlesian erased their history and an alliance out of anger given the whole sacking of their major cities.

[In Exile]

There is something that I been wondering about Dalish Elves and their legend regarding the Creators. Obviously we now know it is inaccurate but something is truly odd with it.

According to Dalish legends, the Creators were tricked by Fen'Harel who then locked the Creators away in the Beyond. The Dalish follow this line of thought with the notion that if the Dalish pray to the Creators, they would one day return back to the Elvhen.

Is it just me or does that not make any sense ? I mean Fen Harel tricked the Creators and locked them away in the Beyond. How exactly does praying to them help ? They are not among the Elvhen to receive their prayers, they are somewhere else, tricked away, absent. Shouldn't the Dalish be seeking Fen'Harel out and force him to bring the Creators back or try to learn what Fen'Harel actually did and undo it or seek the Creators in the Beyond themselves with the help of their mages ? However, why are they praying ? That's not exactly the logical thing to do.

Sure the Chantry has prayers as well but according to Chantry legend, the Maker was not tricked away to some corner of the Fade. He just stopped giving a f*ck. So the notion of praying and spreading the Chant to make him give a f*ck again sort of makes sense.

I just find it weird that no Dalish Elf has raised this point among their people:- That if they truly want the Creators to return they should try to find the Creators themselves in the Beyond or find Fen'Harel and force him to do it, praying is not going to accomplish much.

The idea that faith is a source of power is not exactly unreasonable, and the myth not exactly making sense is par for the course for religion. It also fits with the general helplessness myth that the Dalish have invented about themselves - a great part of their culture is dedicated to clinging towards a weird ideal of their past.

[In Exile]

I really, really doubt it. Orlesian culture was already deeply corrupt in Drakon's time; he attempted to stop the Game, but failed.

It may have gone differently if he had the backing of the Inqusition and Ameridan. More to the point the Game isn't the issue for Orlais from the POV of their relationship with the Dales. It's just political infighting - but that's to the advantage of a state's neighbours. The issue is a racial hatred environment. If the Dales could have bridged the race gap, all it would take to keep their neighbour destabilized is finacing and supporting different sides of the game.

[In Exile]

To this, I must respond with another question: if you believe that Rendon Howe is an evil envious dickwad, how do you explain him being old friends with Bryce Cousland?

He wasn't an evil envious dickwad, though. It's the opposite of what Lob is saying - that Drakon had already carried out a regime of zealous militarily expansion and forced religious conversion, while being openly intolerant of heretics. Howe wasn't an open traitor to the Crown during his time of being friends with Bryce.

[In Exile]

That isn't how propaganda works. When the pro-Drakon propaganda is giving no reason for Drakon's actions beyond "kill the sluts," that's probably the reasoning Drakon used.

This is an incredible stretch, I know, but I'd say that the fact that they refused to take up arms might be, you know, a factor in that assumption.

Is it actually contemporary accounts that we are taking about here? I'm not exactly clear on this sisters of the song point - I don't recall it being mentioned in DAI.

[In Exile]

It's one thing to be wrong about things. There's a lot of things they could have been wrong about. But the other factions don't have almost their entire culture reduced to being a lie with the symbols of evil false gods stamped on their faces.

That's not the point. The point has always been that their culture is obsessively chasing a myth that actively harms them and holds them from rebuilding a true society. This was right there on the tin in DAO, where a whole clan of Dalish is desperately clinging to an insanely racist myth propagated by a Keeper who is actively allowing his people to die and turn into werewolves out of an irrational and blinding hatred for the children of the people who did him wrong, all while essentially crapping ove his culture's sacred beliefs.

This is also the whole point to Merrill: she's kicked out because unlike the Orthodox Marethari she's willing to mess with the Dalish sacred cow to tangibly help her own people.

[In Exile]

Elves were immortal and they all used magic.
Fen'harel did 'lock their gods away' and was responsible for things going to crap.
The know that the vallaslin is important and tied to their gods (just missing the detail about slavery).

Sure, they got some details wrong but these are things that happened a long time ago and Tevinter helped wiped out any trace of their history remaining.

They also got many of their actual myths right. We know the Evanuris were awful. But the elvhen didn't for the most part. Their remembering them in a positive way is yet another sign of just how accurate their accounts may well have been.

[sniper_arrow]

They also got many of their actual myths right. We know the Evanuris were awful. But the elvhen didn't for the most part. Their remembering them in a positive way is yet another sign of just how accurate their accounts may well have been.

 

I had this pet theory that the surviving followers of the Evanuris decided to use propaganda against Fen'harel post Veil. They wore rose-tinted glasses when they spoke fondly of their gods and declared Fenny as the traitorous heathen who lock up the gods.

[LobselVith8]

It's not just that it trumps - I haven't read those guides myself but a major aim of DA is to play with unreliable narrators in history. I am aware that WOT at times is written in a way that seemingly goes away from this but it may well be an editorial error in that regard. It's entirely possible the Orlesian erased their history and an alliance out of anger given the whole sacking of their major cities.

 

Except you're missing the point that simply because Ameridan liked Drakon, that doesn't mean that he had the best interests of the Dales at heart or that the denizens of the kingdom didn't have cause to be concerned about him when he was invading their mutual neighbors in order to create his empire, along with wiping out followers of different faiths (like he did with the nonviolent Daughters of the Song).

 

The idea that faith is a source of power is not exactly unreasonable, and the myth not exactly making sense is par for the course for religion. It also fits with the general helplessness myth that the Dalish have invented about themselves - a great part of their culture is dedicated to clinging towards a weird ideal of their past.

 

It's not "helpless" to think that gods exist, and as we know, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones certainly existed. So did Fen'Harel. You also seem to be confusing the fact that the Dalish chose to be nomadic in order to maintain their autonomy and the freedom to follow their religious beliefs with some "weird ideal". It really isn't weird for the Dalish to have no interest in living out their lives in slums or at the mercy of humans who can easy purge them - let's not forget thousands were murdered at Halamshiral because a play provoked Celene into killing them, and when Denerim Alienage was purged the humans also murdered the children at the orphanage.

 

Not wanting to be at the mercy of humans who can easily kill them all is sensible, not weird. You might think that's weird, but I think it makes perfect sense that the Dalish would prefer to have their autonomy. The Dalish could easily settle and build a future for themselves, instead of simply surviving day to day, but since their religion alone made them criminals in Andrastian society that wasn't even plausible.

 

It may have gone differently if he had the backing of the Inqusition and Ameridan. More to the point the Game isn't the issue for Orlais from the POV of their relationship with the Dales. It's just political infighting - but that's to the advantage of a state's neighbours. The issue is a racial hatred environment. If the Dales could have bridged the race gap, all it would take to keep their neighbour destabilized is finacing and supporting different sides of the game.

 

You also seem to think that Drakon wouldn't want to conquer them, despite conquering and forcibly converting his other neighbors. Ameridan is an example of an elf who followed the Maker; the Dales are an entire nation of men, women, and children who followed the Creators.

 

He wasn't an evil envious dickwad, though. It's the opposite of what Lob is saying - that Drakon had already carried out a regime of zealous militarily expansion and forced religious conversion, while being openly intolerant of heretics. Howe wasn't an open traitor to the Crown during his time of being friends with Bryce.

 

You seem to completely miss Xil's point that despite Howe being friends with Bryce Cousland, he was not a good person; you can't point to Ameridan and claim that Drakon is a White Hat Hero simply because Ameridan supported the man and his expansionist efforts (he remarks positively when he thinks Drakon has expanded the reach of his empire with certain Inquisitors).

[Steelcan]

I know lobs won't see this since he blocked me, but I'd really like to see what he's using as the basis for Drakon's anti-elven feelings.  He had a personal friendship with Ameridan and there's no evidence he warred against the Dales.

[Xilizhra]

He wasn't an evil envious dickwad, though. It's the opposite of what Lob is saying - that Drakon had already carried out a regime of zealous militarily expansion and forced religious conversion, while being openly intolerant of heretics. Howe wasn't an open traitor to the Crown during his time of being friends with Bryce.

To be honest, Ameridan seems like a cautionary tale in the vein of "They came for X, and I didn't speak out because I was not X."

 

 

I know lobs won't see this since he blocked me, but I'd really like to see what he's using as the basis for Drakon's anti-elven feelings.  He had a personal friendship with Ameridan and there's no evidence he warred against the Dales.

The imperialistic nature of Drakon's Chantry would demand it sooner or later.

[Steelcan]

 

The imperialistic nature of Drakon's Chantry would demand it sooner or later.

There's no proof he'd have done it though, leaders throughout history have bent ideology in favor of politics and he seemed to value at the very least peace with the elves.  Furthermore we can't really say his Chantry was imperialistic so much as it was at this point nationalistic, afterwall he was uniting the Orlesian people, not Andrastians everywhere, and eventually Drakon's chantry won out over the other branches including in areas he did not invade such as Ferelden.  So unless you are going to count national unification and other Andrastian areas adopting the same methods of worship apparently on their own as an imperialist project, which would be a hard sell, you can't really call it that.

[Xilizhra]

There's no proof he'd have done it though, leaders throughout history have bent ideology in favor of politics and he seemed to value at the very least peace with the elves.  Furthermore we can't really say his Chantry was imperialistic so much as it was at this point nationalistic, afterwall he was uniting the Orlesian people, not Andrastians everywhere, and eventually Drakon's chantry won out over the other branches including in areas he did not invade such as Ferelden.  So unless you are going to count national unification and other Andrastian areas adopting the same methods of worship apparently on their own as an imperialist project, which would be a hard sell, you can't really call it that.

National unification is imperialism on a smaller scale, especially when you're crushing all forms of worship but your own. And it doesn't really matter if Drakon himself wouldn't have attacked the Dales; one of his successors doing so in this religious climate was an inevitability.

[Gervaise]

The way I see it is that Ameridan was hoping that if he dealt with the Avaar and persuaded his countrymen to follow him in aiding Drakon against the Blight, then he might be able to persuade Drakon not to force his Chantry on the Dales.     He knew what Drakon was intending.  When he enquires whether Drakon has succeeded in spreading the Chant yet, I don't see that as approving, just an awareness he knew that was what Drakon wished to do.    The attitude of the Dales didn't help matters but Drakon wanted to spread the Chant to all corners of the world, by conquest if necessary, and the Chantry, which he set up, shared that view.   The Chevaliers may not have shared his religious verve but were only too happy to use it as an excuse for expansionism and war. 

 

If the Dalish had made their capital city much further to the south, then hostilities could possibly have been avoided but unfortunately it lay right on the Imperial Highway, in a highly strategic position, as did the farmlands in the north of the Dales.   Sooner or later it would have come to blows, even if the Dalish had been fully paid up Andrastrians, but being worshipers of heathen gods just made it ideal for Chantry propaganda. 

[Steelcan]

National unification is imperialism on a smaller scale, especially when you're crushing all forms of worship but your own. And it doesn't really matter if Drakon himself wouldn't have attacked the Dales; one of his successors doing so in this religious climate was an inevitability.

There is a difference between nationalism and imperialism.  Drakon would have been an imperialist if he'd advocated for the unification of all Andrastians into one nation (ie someone like Charlemagne who I think has to have been some of the inspiration behind the character).  Instead his project is a nationalist one designed to unite the Orlesians together, sure they may have been considered separate groups because of their divided political status, and some groups might have scoffed at others and been rivals and whatnot, but there's no really evidence that he forged a new Orlesian identity, just brought them all together into one nation.

 

And no, once again see ideology and politics, furthermore we all know who invaded the sovereign territory of the other in a campaign of conquest and destruction first.

[Steelcan]

The way I see it is that Ameridan was hoping that if he dealt with the Avaar and persuaded his countrymen to follow him in aiding Drakon against the Blight, then he might be able to persuade Drakon not to force his Chantry on the Dales.     He knew what Drakon was intending.  When he enquires whether Drakon has succeeded in spreading the Chant yet, I don't see that as approving, just an awareness he knew that was what Drakon wished to do.    The attitude of the Dales didn't help matters but Drakon wanted to spread the Chant to all corners of the world, by conquest if necessary, and the Chantry, which he set up, shared that view.   The Chevaliers may not have shared his religious verve but were only too happy to use it as an excuse for expansionism and war. 

 

If the Dalish had made their capital city much further to the south, then hostilities could possibly have been avoided but unfortunately it lay right on the Imperial Highway, in a highly strategic position, as did the farmlands in the north of the Dales.   Sooner or later it would have come to blows, even if the Dalish had been fully paid up Andrastrians, but being worshipers of heathen gods just made it ideal for Chantry propaganda. 

Except theres no evidence that Drakon was intending to attack the Dales at all, and he certainly wouldn't have been in a position to after the end of the 2nd Blight.

 

And the "Chantry" propoganda doesn't really hold much water either, the Dales attacked Orlais and lost, the Chantry wasn't even a huge factor in the war since only Orlais contributed troops to the Exalted March on the Dales.

[LobselVith8]

National unification is imperialism on a smaller scale, especially when you're crushing all forms of worship but your own. And it doesn't really matter if Drakon himself wouldn't have attacked the Dales; one of his successors doing so in this religious climate was an inevitability.

 

We already know about one such example: the Daughters of the Song. According to a member of the Chantry who provides the historical account of their existence: "Wine. Music. Poetry. And the wanton and frenzied indulgence of carnal fancies. These things characterized the hedonistic cult known as the Daughters of Song. Calling them an order of the faithful lends them a legitimacy they do not deserve. The daughters (and sons, though they saw themselves also as "daughters") celebrated Andraste's holy union with the Maker in almost every way imaginable. And it was only the 'holy union' they venerated. Andraste's life, her war, her teachings, and her sacrifice were blithely ignored.

 

"At its height, the Daughters of Song numbered in the thousands. They maintained a stronghold in a village called Virelay, in the Fields of Ghislain. Virelay saw a yearly event during which the Daughters of Song paraded carven images of the 'Maker's Glory' through the square.

 

"The Daughters of Song were wiped out by the righteous forces of Emperor Drakon during his campaigns to unite all of Orlais. When the emperor's forces sacked the village, the Daughters would not arm themselves and were either killed or captured. The village was destroyed, and the cult never recovered."

[Gervaise]

Incidentally Drakon did invade Ferelden to bring his version of the Chant.  This was before the establishment of the official Chantry.  World of Thedas 2 says he conquered well into Nevarra and modern day Ferelden, stamping out worship of any other deities as he did so.   

[Steelcan]

Incidentally Drakon did invade Ferelden to bring his version of the Chant.  This was before the establishment of the official Chantry.  World of Thedas 2 says he conquered well into Nevarra and modern day Ferelden, stamping out worship of any other deities as he did so.

Ignoring the issues in WoT in general, did he conquer all of both of them? What about the Free Marches and Anderfells? Rivain? There's no mention that he successfully established a new Imperium to cover all this land, and even if he had it certainly didnt last very long.

[Steelcan]

We already know about one such example: the Daughters of the Song. According to a member of the Chantry who provides the historical account of their existence: "Wine. Music. Poetry. And the wanton and frenzied indulgence of carnal fancies. These things characterized the hedonistic cult known as the Daughters of Song. Calling them an order of the faithful lends them a legitimacy they do not deserve. The daughters (and sons, though they saw themselves also as "daughters") celebrated Andraste's holy union with the Maker in almost every way imaginable. And it was only the 'holy union' they venerated. Andraste's life, her war, her teachings, and her sacrifice were blithely ignored.
 
"At its height, the Daughters of Song numbered in the thousands. They maintained a stronghold in a village called Virelay, in the Fields of Ghislain. Virelay saw a yearly event during which the Daughters of Song paraded carven images of the 'Maker's Glory' through the square.
 
"The Daughters of Song were wiped out by the righteous forces of Emperor Drakon during his campaigns to unite all of Orlais. When the emperor's forces sacked the village, the Daughters would not arm themselves and were either killed or captured. The village was destroyed, and the cult never recovered."

so these hedonistic heretics occupied one village, and them being wiped out, A SINGLE VILLAGE, constitutes imperialism?

That is such a ridiculously low bar I'm not even sure what to say.

[LobselVith8]

The way I see it is that Ameridan was hoping that if he dealt with the Avaar and persuaded his countrymen to follow him in aiding Drakon against the Blight, then he might be able to persuade Drakon not to force his Chantry on the Dales.     He knew what Drakon was intending.  When he enquires whether Drakon has succeeded in spreading the Chant yet, I don't see that as approving, just an awareness he knew that was what Drakon wished to do.    The attitude of the Dales didn't help matters but Drakon wanted to spread the Chant to all corners of the world, by conquest if necessary, and the Chantry, which he set up, shared that view.   The Chevaliers may not have shared his religious verve but were only too happy to use it as an excuse for expansionism and war. 

 

Your interpretation of Ameridan's comments about Drakon spreading his empire could be right. Given that Drakon was conquering his neighboring city-states and forcing conversion to his particular Cult turned national religion (or wiping out religious groups that didn't adhere to his own Cult of the Maker, like he did with thousands of men, women, and children who comprised the followers of the Daughters of the Song), I think it would give any rational person pause.

[Xilizhra]

so these hedonistic heretics occupied one village, and them being wiped out, A SINGLE VILLAGE, constitutes imperialism?

That is such a ridiculously low bar I'm not even sure what to say.

Aside from the fact that there was no established religion and therefore there couldn't have been heretics, it was still religious genocide, which is rather a bad thing.

[Steelcan]

Aside from the fact that there was no established religion and therefore there couldn't have been heretics, it was still religious genocide, which is rather a bad thing.

well technically they'd still be heretics to Drakon's native branch of Andrastianism.

No one here is saying that Drakon's was a nice guy, or his militaristic campaigns were good for those on the receiving end. But to call the destruction of a single village (not even its entirety as prisoners were taken) hardly qualifies as imperialism. If you stretch the definition genocide enough yes it would fit, but a few thousand people in one village is pretty weak sauce even for Thedas.