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[LobselVith8]

Aside from the fact that there was no established religion and therefore there couldn't have been heretics, it was still religious genocide, which is rather a bad thing.

 

It's the massacre of a religious group that is said to comprise thousands of people who wouldn't even defend themselves against Drakon's forces. It's the kind of behavior that would give anyone in the kingdom of the Dales pause about Drakon and Orlais, particularly as the elves followed a different faith. We also have the Chantry historical accounts addressing that Drakon's conquests were about his religious views: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

 

Why anyone would vilify the elves of the Dales for doubting Drakon and distrusting Orlais is beyond me.

[Xilizhra]

well technically they'd still be heretics to Drakon's native branch of Andrastianism.

No one here is saying that Drakon's was a nice guy, or his militaristic campaigns were good for those on the receiving end. But to call the destruction of a single village (not even its entirety as prisoners were taken) hardly qualifies as imperialism. If you stretch the definition genocide enough yes it would fit, but a few thousand people in one village is pretty weak sauce even for Thedas.

That's like saying that wiping out the Migrant Fleet wouldn't be genocide, due to their tiny population relative to the rest of the galaxy.

[Steelcan]

It's the massacre of a religious group that is said to comprise thousands of people who wouldn't even defend themselves against Drakon's forces. It's the kind of behavior that would give anyone in the kingdom of the Dales pause about Drakon and Orlais, particularly as the elves followed a different faith. We also have the Chantry historical accounts addressing that Drakon's conquests were about his religious views: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

 

Why anyone would vilify the elves of the Dales for doubting Drakon and distrusting Orlais is beyond me.

I'll vilify the elves for invading Orlais and sacking everything they got their hands on. 

 

Meanwhile a complete list of Drakon's known actions against the Dales:

[Gervaise]

Referring to an exchange on the previous page, I know this is an elven support thread but my assertion about Andraste and the location of the Valarian Fields is based off information given in the first few pages of World of Thedas 2, where it is obvious that she never got further north than Nevarra.   After the battle of the Valarian Fields it has the following to say:

 

"The farther into the Imperium Andraste pressed, the more resistance she encountered.   Her army was running out of territories eager to accept liberation.   The closer they came to the heart of the empire, the more they faced the enemy on home ground."  

   

"If Tevinter found its full strength and its people were rallied against this heretic, Andraste, the Alamarri would be faced with a reversal of their success." 

 

So it clearly says that after the Valarian Fields they were not yet in the heart of the Imperium, but the current location of the Valarian Fields is right in front of Minrathous.   Also the Chantry maintain that the victory had been achieved against all the power that the Imperium could muster, which would make sense in front of the gates of Minrathous but the reality was it was strongest resistance of the outlying territories that they had vanquished, not the full might of the Imperium.    I also would again point to the fact that if the victory had been achieved outside Minrathous, then the last thing you would do is retreat hundreds of miles back down south to Nevarra and allow your enemy the opportunity to recover its full strength. 

 

At her execution it says: "The gathered crowd were not citizens of the borders who had felt the sting of the Alamarri, so they held no burning hatred for Our Lady."

 

Again, if the battle of Valarian Fields had been fought in front of Minrathous, then they had felt the sting of the Alamarri.   The Chant also maintains that the combined forces of the Alamarri and the Imperium witnessed her death.    Not so, according to this history.   Her armies were still in the south.   These citizens were people who had suffered nothing in the war and thus were of a mind to feel sympathy for a woman who seemed anything but a barbarian warlord. 

[Steelcan]

That's like saying that wiping out the Migrant Fleet wouldn't be genocide, due to their tiny population relative to the rest of the galaxy.

A completely different situation and you know it.  We can debate the differences between religious vs racial genocide elsewhere though (and there are differences).

 

If Drakon's campaign more resembled say Charlemagnes's conquest of the Saxons, then I'd agree it was genocide, but destroying one village for heresy is again, is far too too low a bar for genocide.

[LobselVith8]

Incidentally Drakon did invade Ferelden to bring his version of the Chant.  This was before the establishment of the official Chantry.  World of Thedas 2 says he conquered well into Nevarra and modern day Ferelden, stamping out worship of any other deities as he did so.   

 

Yeah, the historical accounts of the Chantry make it clear that Drakon conquered his neighbors and was focused on bringing his subjects under the worship of his particular faith (which we have had access to as codex entries since Origins). This history of imperialistic conquests has continued as Drakon's legacy, and even the Chantry has supported Orlesian conquest - like they did during the occupation of Ferelden.

[Xilizhra]

Meanwhile a complete list of Drakon's known actions against the Dales:

If you build a dangerous car, and it explodes while someone else is driving it, do you have no fault because you weren't driving it?

 

 

A completely different situation and you know it.

Yes, because in the latter case, a Shepard who screwed up would find genocide of someone inevitable.

 

 

If Drakon's campaign more resembled say Charlemagnes's conquest of the Saxons, then I'd agree it was genocide, but destroying one village for heresy is again, is far too too low a bar for genocide.

Aside from the fact that you're literally wrong about the definition, how does downgrading it from "genocide" to "mass murder" even help Drakon's image?

[Steelcan]

If you build a dangerous car, and it explodes while someone else is driving it, do you have no fault because you weren't driving it?

 

 

Yes, because in the latter case, a Shepard who screwed up would find genocide of someone inevitable.

 

 

Aside from the fact that you're literally wrong about the definition, how does downgrading it from "genocide" to "mass murder" even help Drakon's image?

Well the car analogy only works if someone else walks up and tossed a molotov at it before it exploded several generations after I built it, in which case I am hardly at fault.

 

Again, we can debate how useful the definition of genocide is elsewhere (as it stands though it is far too vague).  I'd say there's a difference between a campaign of extermination that involves hundreds of thousands if not into the millions of causalities vs a single village being destroyed. 

[Xilizhra]

Well the car analogy only works if someone else walks up and tossed a molotov at it before it exploded several generations after I built it, in which case the I am hardly at fault.

So you'd say that the genocide of the Dales had nothing to do with Andrastianism and was simply a quality of the Orlesian people?

 

 

Again, we can debate how useful the definition of genocide is elsewhere (as it stands though it is far too vague).  I'd say there's a difference between a campaign of extermination that involves hundreds of thousands if not into the millions of causalities vs a single village being destroyed. 

Yes. The difference is between killing twenty people in a convenience store robbery and killing three. You're still a murderer.

[Steelcan]

So you'd say that the genocide of the Dales had nothing to do with Andrastianism and was simply a quality of the Orlesian people?

 

 

Yes. The difference is between killing twenty people in a convenience store robbery and killing three. You're still a murderer.

I'd say the destruction and dispersion of the Dalish kingdom was the end result of the Dalish war of aggression they waged and lost.  War crimes were committed on both sides clearly so no side really holds the moral high ground, but those who attacked first probably are on slightly lower ground.  The conversion of the elves to Andrastianism afterwards and their settlement in alienages is still better than being slaughtered wholesale I'd say, and there doesn't seem to be any lingering resentment over said conversion among the city elves, they aren't still worshiping the Creators in secret.

 

I never said he wasn't a murderer.  The destruction of the Daughters of Song certainly wasn't justified only that its on a different scale than other campaigns of destruction.

[In Exile]

Aside from the fact that there was no established religion and therefore there couldn't have been heretics, it was still religious genocide, which is rather a bad thing.

But why is this proof of an issue for the Dales? It doesn't matter whether Drakon is an imperialist or a bigot - it matters whether it's a bad idea or the Dales to be on good terms with him. And if he's truly an existential threat then they should have allied with the other humans he was busy killing against him. I just have a hard time following what this conversation about Drakon being a bad person has to do with the thread? Is this just the tired argument that the Dales were right to politically isolate themselves?

[In Exile]

So you'd say that the genocide of the Dales had nothing to do with Andrastianism and was simply a quality of the Orlesian people?


Yes. The difference is between killing twenty people in a convenience store robbery and killing three. You're still a murderer.

I believe the historical account is that the Chantry stopped Orlesians from perpetrating an even worse genocide, by massacring most of the elves. The Orlesians and Chantry may well have agreed on bringing down the Dales, but that doesn't mean they were of one mind on what to do with it or its people.

[Xilizhra]

I'd say the destruction and dispersion of the Dalish kingdom was the end result of the Dalish war of aggression they waged and lost.  War crimes were committed on both sides clearly so no side really holds the moral high ground, but those who attacked first probably are on slightly lower ground.  The conversion of the elves to Andrastianism afterwards and their settlement in alienages is still better than being slaughtered wholesale I'd say, and there doesn't seem to be any lingering resentment over said conversion among the city elves, they aren't still worshiping the Creators in secret.

It was attempted cultural and religious genocide; the Dalish had to flee. Orlais doesn't deserve to keep the Dales, but it can at least be given an elven ruler. As for the Chantry... at minimum, every single marker or monument commemorating the Exalted March in the Dales should be torn down.

 

 

I never said he wasn't a murderer.  The destruction of the Daughters of Song certainly wasn't justified only that its on a different scale than other campaigns of destruction.

Good, then we can agree that Drakon was an evil fiend himself.

 

 

But why is this proof of an issue for the Dales? It doesn't matter whether Drakon is an imperialist or a bigot - it matters whether it's a bad idea or the Dales to be on good terms with him. And if he's truly an existential threat then they should have allied with the other humans he was busy killing against him. I just have a hard time following what this conversation about Drakon being a bad person has to do with the thread? Is this just the tired argument that the Dales were right to politically isolate themselves?

Strategically, it was probably a mistake. Morally, they weren't wrong.

[Steelcan]

It was attempted cultural and religious genocide; the Dalish had to flee. Orlais doesn't deserve to keep the Dales, but it can at least be given an elven ruler. As for the Chantry... at minimum, every single marker or monument commemorating the Exalted March in the Dales should be torn down.

 

 

Good, then we can agree that Drakon was an evil fiend himself.

 

 

Strategically, it was probably a mistake. Morally, they weren't wrong.

It was the subjugation of a dangerous enemy that clearly thought it was a good idea to invade their neighbors and sack all the cities they could after sitting out a Blight.  The rest of the world has moved on, even the majority of city elves aren't pining for a new homeland but for equal rights where they already live.  The Dales are Orlesian land through and through and their inhabitants followers of Andraste.

 

Sure if it makes you happy to cast moral judgement on fictional characters in a time extremely different from our own and in the face of much worse threats as well.

 

They were morally wrong to sit out Blights, they were morally wrong to invade Orlais

[Xilizhra]

It was the subjugation of a dangerous enemy that clearly thought it was a good idea to invade their neighbors and sack all the cities they could after sitting out a Blight.  The rest of the world has moved on, even the majority of city elves aren't pining for a new homeland but for equal rights where they already live.  The Dales are Orlesian land through and through and their inhabitants followers of Andraste.

Note that I never suggested expelling the current inhabitants of the Dales. If they want to live under elven leadership, they're welcome to do so.

 

 

Sure if it makes you happy to cast moral judgement on fictional characters in a time extremely different from our own and in the face of much worse threats as well.

It certainly seems to make you happy.

[Steelcan]

Note that I never suggested expelling the current inhabitants of the Dales. If they want to live under elven leadership, they're welcome to do so.

 

 

It certainly seems to make you happy.

Its a moot point regardless, right now the elves have much bigger things to worry about then who is the Marquis of the Dales.  Like not getting purged once Solas and his fellow rabble rousers have been dealt with.

 

I'm easily amused, what can I say.

[Gervaise]

I dare say initially the elves held off interfering because it did seem just a human matter.  If, and I only say if, they didn't help with the Blight, they may have considered it a sign that the Maker didn't approve of what Drakon was doing, considering the people he was killing were also followers of the Maker, just in a different way.   Ameridan says that many of his countrymen considered that Drakon and his Empire were no better than Tevinter.    If Ferelden or the Marcher states had actually asked for help in fighting back against Orlais, may be the elves would have stepped in but since they didn't, I would imagine the elves initially thought it wiser not to interfere and trust that they would be left alone.   

 

We have no way of knowing if Drakon would have attacked them himself since he died before the end of the 2nd Blight but clearly when a Divine names an age, Glory, it doesn't bode well for peaceful relations between neighbours and there were skirmishes between the two nations for 4 years before it erupted into all out war.  

 

I'm still somewhat disappointed that the history of Red Crossing turned out to be some faux Romeo and Juliet story.   Not nearly enough explanation of why the elves then felt compelled to conquer Orlais, which was evidently the intent in attacking Val Royeaux itself.   Unless the Dalish story is true.  It was because of the constant harassment by the Chantry missionaries and Templars, plus what they knew had happened with their human neighbours of different religious beliefs, that persuaded them the only way they would ever be safe was to attack the heart of the religion itself.

[Xilizhra]

Its a moot point regardless, right now the elves have much bigger things to worry about then who is the Marquis of the Dales.  Like not getting purged once Solas and his fellow rabble rousers have been dealt with.

I dearly hope that it'll be impossible to "deal with" Solas in any permanent fashion, but I take solace in the very high probability that, like Anders, you won't actually have to fight him.

[Steelcan]

I dare say initially the elves held off interfering because it did seem just a human matter.  If, and I only say if, they didn't help with the Blight, they may have considered it a sign that the Maker didn't approve of what Drakon was doing, considering the people he was killing were also followers of the Maker, just in a different way.   Ameridan says that many of his countrymen considered that Drakon and his Empire were no better than Tevinter.    If Ferelden or the Marcher states had actually asked for help in fighting back against Orlais, may be the elves would have stepped in but since they didn't, I would imagine the elves initially thought it wiser not to interfere and trust that they would be left alone.   

There's no no reason to think they did help during the Blight and significant reason to think they did not.  Such inactivity is inexcusable.

[Steelcan]

I dearly hope that it'll be impossible to "deal with" Solas in any permanent fashion, but I take solace in the very high probability that, like Anders, you won't actually have to fight him.

Well Anders was never set up to be the antagonist of the next entry.

[Gervaise]

Yes but with Anders no matter how you felt about his little plan you weren't able to stop him.    It is small consolation if they give you the option to knife Solas after he has turned Thedas into a fiery chaos, even if you are still alive.    My first run with Anders I didn't have the Sebastian DLC so didn't have him ranting on about him, so when Merrill said we should spare Anders so he could help sort out the mess he had caused, I was very much inclined to agree.   For some reason Anders seemed to think this was because I supported his action.   I really didn't.   I have serious objections to placing a bomb under any public building but I just ignored him and we got on with saving the mages from mad Meredith.

 

So if Solas drops the Veil, we survive and then they ask if you want to spare him or not, then of course I will, since he's likely to be the only person who knows how to deal with the situation, certainly when it comes to rampaging Evanuris.   If nothing else they can direct their wrath at him.    On the other hand, if killing Solas is the only way to get him not to drop the Veil and he hasn't explained to me why it is necessary, then reluctantly I am just going to have to do so.

[Xilizhra]

Well Anders was never set up to be the antagonist of the next entry.

Pfft. You really think that Bioware will make the Solavellan legion kill or crush the spirit of their husbando?

[Steelcan]

Pfft. You really think that Bioware will make the Solavellan legion kill or crush the spirit of their husbando?

They made it possible to kill Tali in ME3, and if they can cross that bridge there's nothing safe

[Xilizhra]

They made it possible to kill Tali in ME3, and if they can cross that bridge there's nothing safe

Oh, I'm sure it'll be possible. What it won't be is mandatory.

[LobselVith8]

Well, since this is a thread for the discussion of elves, I wonder if we will ever receive any elaboration on the history of Iloren. In the "Tale of Iloren", it reads he was in the Anderfels with Dalish elves during the Second Blight (it mentions the Archdemon Zazikel), and the story focused on how Iloren lead his people to fight darkspawn in self-defense (a group of them attempted to ambush Iloren and his people at night).