1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Oh, I'm sure it'll be possible. What it won't be is mandatory.

I've never said it should be mandatory to kill Solas, I'll just be disappointed if it isn't possible at all

[Gervaise]

Is their any record of the Alamarri helping against the 2nd Blight?   Or anyone from the southern states whilst it was still largely in the Anderfels and northern Orlais?    The Imperium abandoned the Anderfels to its fate in 1:5.  The darkspawn seem to have been emerging sporadically all over the place.   They appeared at Cumberland in 1:16 and then at Montsimmard in 1:25.   The Alamarri were fighting them in Ferelden in 1:40.   So it is clear that even if people aren't actually recorded as assisting the Emperor in his efforts, they are likely fighting darkspawn on their territory.   Why do you imagine it was any different for the Dalish?

 

There is one record of the elves not helping.   It is in the history as recorded by the victors.    I've already reported that there is at least one lore book that suggests the fact that no one else can bear witness to their lack of action is suspicious particularly since the Chantry went out of its way to demonise the elves so no one would object to conquering them.     As I've also point out, if the elves were watching so far out from their official territory, it is likely that they did go there to help but they were too late to do any good.   So they simply dug in to prevent the spread of the darkspawn further east.     However, when the Chantry wanted additional propaganda to use against the elves, they use an account, that even if true could be interpreted in several ways, but they chose to put the worst possible spin on it.

[Gervaise]

Good spot about Illoren.   I'd forgotten that story it is so long since I played DAO last.    I doubt that Illoren and his clan were living up in the Anderfels. It sounds to me that at least one clan from the Dales joined the efforts against the darkspawn.    Which means it is likely the Chantry were well aware of it but chose to suppress that bit of information, just as they did Shartan and Ameridan, because it didn't suit their political agenda.   Who is to say Illoren wasn't there as part of an official Dalish force honouring their agreement with the Grey Wardens and part of their forces rather then the Emperors?

[Lumix19]

Its a moot point regardless, right now the elves have much bigger things to worry about then who is the Marquis of the Dales.  Like not getting purged once Solas and his fellow rabble rousers have been dealt with.

 

I'm easily amused, what can I say.

 

That's kind of assuming that people even believe it. Elves seem more likely to get lynched if the local pub owner gets murdered rather than due to a apocalypse conspiracy carried out by a doomsday cult devoted to the living god, Fen'Harel.

I'm assuming there's a reason why the Inquisitor meets his compatriots in a dark and damp HQ at the end of Trespasser and I assume that reason is because the plan to go after Solas is a secret one.

 

Obviously this could be completely undone if Solas is stupid enough to do what Corypheus did and announce his plan to all of Thedas (complete with green explosions and end-of-time pronouncements) but somehow I doubt that.

[LobselVith8]

Is their any record of the Alamarri helping against the 2nd Blight?   Or anyone from the southern states whilst it was still largely in the Anderfels and northern Orlais?    The Imperium abandoned the Anderfels to its fate in 1:5.  The darkspawn seem to have been emerging sporadically all over the place.   They appeared at Cumberland in 1:16 and then at Montsimmard in 1:25.   The Alamarri were fighting them in Ferelden in 1:40.   So it is clear that even if people aren't actually recorded as assisting the Emperor in his efforts, they are likely fighting darkspawn on their territory.   Why do you imagine it was any different for the Dalish?

 

That's a good point. The opening to the Tale of Iloren does suggest that the darkspawn weren't an isolated problem: "In the days after the rising of Zazikel, the dark ones covered every corner of the land. The archdemon drove all the nations of the world before him, shemlen and elvhen alike."​

[Hellion Rex]

I had this pet theory that the surviving followers of the Evanuris decided to use propaganda against Fen'harel post Veil. They wore rose-tinted glasses when they spoke fondly of their gods and declared Fenny as the traitorous heathen who lock up the gods.

It would not surprising, given that he did technically destroy their world, regardless of whether or not it was warranted.

[Gervaise]

Look at the reaction of the people in the Library.   Some of them definitely knew Fen'Harel was responsible.   "What has Fen'Harel done?"   Their world was falling apart literally beneath their feet and they certainly weren't grateful for his actions.   Initially they probably thought the Evanuris would come to their rescue and then it dawned on them.  "Where are the gods?"   I don't think it required much propaganda on the part of the priesthood of the Evanuris to turn the majority of survivors against Fen'Harel and any followers that dared still support him.    Also, even Solas is so nostalgic that he wants to restore the world he knew, even if that means the Evanuris are freed because he thinks it is superior to the world they now live in.   Is it any wonder that the majority of elves looked back to that time fondly and remember their gods as benign beings who taught them how to survive in the world and protected them.   Everything went to hell when they lost their gods.   Bearing in mind that their gods even warned against the fair words of Fen'Harel and how they would eventually turn to poison, I dare say even some of his own followers lost faith in him.

[Xilizhra]

Look at the reaction of the people in the Library.   Some of them definitely knew Fen'Harel was responsible.   "What has Fen'Harel done?"   Their world was falling apart literally beneath their feet and they certainly weren't grateful for his actions.   Initially they probably thought the Evanuris would come to their rescue and then it dawned on them.  "Where are the gods?"   I don't think it required much propaganda on the part of the priesthood of the Evanuris to turn the majority of survivors against Fen'Harel and any followers that dared still support him.    Also, even Solas is so nostalgic that he wants to restore the world he knew, even if that means the Evanuris are freed because he thinks it is superior to the world they now live in.   Is it any wonder that the majority of elves looked back to that time fondly and remember their gods as benign beings who taught them how to survive in the world and protected them.   Everything went to hell when they lost their gods.   Bearing in mind that their gods even warned against the fair words of Fen'Harel and how they would eventually turn to poison, I dare say even some of his own followers lost faith in him.

Honestly, I want to hear the Evanuris' side of the story.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's dialogue in Origins that refers to the span of time of the Orlesian occupation in Ferelden as "over a century" which is why I used that span of time in my post. But since an occupation really has no designated period of time to define it (it's not as though it's no longer an occupation if a certain amount of time passes, after all), I'm not sure what the point of this is.

 

I made a post addressing how I would have preferred to see more elven content in the Dales. You're welcome to think differently on the matter, of course, but since this is an elven thread that's why I chose to share my ideas here.

 

I remember Loghain referring to "Those who enslaved us for a century" but I think he was just using inexact language. Either that or Bioware since changed their minds about the timeline. The WoT timeline says it's more like 75 years if you count from the beginning of the Mad Emperor's invasion. 

 

I'll admit, I just using my own personal perspective on this situation, but I do see the Orlesian conquest of the Dales as something different from an occupation. And the reason is the length of it. 

 

I'm not exactly totally unfamiliar with the long term effects of stolen land. Without getting into too many real life political details, I will say two of my grandparents were refugees driven from their home when they were young. 

 

I know what it's like to imagine one's people being able to take back the homes that were stolen from them, but sometimes that's just an implausible dream. And even if it were possible, it would likely involve trying to undo ethnic cleansing by doing more of it.

 

It's one of the reasons I found the Dalish relatable in the first place, even if like them, I'm generations removed and might not even live near that part of the world anymore.

 

Fereldens endured decades of brutal foreign occupation, but when it was done, their nation was still intact.It's cities weren't destroyed, it's people weren't scattered, and their language culture was not subsumed into Orlais. Ferelden was still Ferelden.

 

The tragedy of the Dales was of far greater magnitude. Their capital was a reduced to an uninhabitable ruin for 300 years. Their settlements were uprooted and their people were scattered around the entire continent into either Dalish Clans or Alienages. Humans became the dominant population there. Even if Halamshiral is mostly elven, there are new cities that have sprung up in the Dales in the 700 years since Orlesians conquest. After almost a millennium of human rule, the elves of the Dales are no more.  Their descendants are just the lower class citizens of each individual human nation. The fact that the people of Halamshiral are Orlesians something that even Briala and Celene both acknowledge in the Masked Empire.

 

The Dales is not a country you can just walk in and liberate, because there is not enough left of it to liberate. The Dales, as it once was, is gone. For me, calling it "occupied" undersells their loss.

 

If, hypothetically, at some point in the future an elven nationalist from Orlais somehow restores elven rule over Halamshiral, that wouldn't be liberating the Dales, that would be founding some new kingdom, even if the name were the same.

[LobselVith8]

Honestly, I want to hear the Evanuris' side of the story.

 

I would like to hear what the Creators have to say, too. It's possible that Solas' view of things isn't "the one and only truth" about how things were back then during the time of Arlathan and Elvhenan. There's a saying that everyone is the hero of their own story. Solas' use of certain language does seem intended to vilify the Creators, but his willingness to murder Felassan and have Corypheus activate the Orb shows that his own morality is questionable. The actual truth might be somewhere in the middle of what Solas claims happened and what the Creators say took place.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So many different peoples posts to respond to. I'm doing my best to catch up.

 

That's not the point. The point has always been that their culture is obsessively chasing a myth that actively harms them and holds them from rebuilding a true society. This was right there on the tin in DAO, where a whole clan of Dalish is desperately clinging to an insanely racist myth propagated by a Keeper who is actively allowing his people to die and turn into werewolves out of an irrational and blinding hatred for the children of the people who did him wrong, all while essentially crapping ove his culture's sacred beliefs.

This is also the whole point to Merrill: she's kicked out because unlike the Orthodox Marethari she's willing to mess with the Dalish sacred cow to tangibly help her own people.

 

Dalish culture and religion is not what holds them back from rebuilding a society. Hostility from various human institutions is what keeps them from rebuidling. Merril was kicked out for using forbidden magic to mess around with ancient artifact to that risks her life life.

 

Marethari says in Origins that "whatever this artifact is, it is not worth the lives of our children."

 

It's actually the exact opposite of how you characterize the situation. Merrill is the one messing with the past at the risk to the future, Marethari wants to leave the past be.

 

 

I believe the historical account is that the Chantry stopped Orlesians from perpetrating an even worse genocide, by massacring most of the elves. The Orlesians and Chantry may well have agreed on bringing down the Dales, but that doesn't mean they were of one mind on what to do with it or its people.

 

What is your source for this?

[Xilizhra]

If, hypothetically, at some point in the future an elven nationalist from Orlais somehow restores elven rule over Halamshiral, that wouldn't be liberating the Dales, that would be founding some new kingdom, even if the name were the same. 

That's not the future, that's now if Briala has any power.

[BansheeOwnage]

True. A Dalish elf is also one of the optional Inquisitors who can help Briala, and let's not forget Clan Lavellan defending the elves of Wycome despite the dangers to their own lives.

 

Technically speaking, I also don't see why Lavellan can't help the Dalish settle either southern Dales (near Skyhold) or the unoccupied lands near Kirkwall (given his or her status as Comte of Kirkwall, courtesy of Viscount Varric) since the protagonist is wealthy enough to legally purchase the lands for them.

Because the devs either didn't think of it, or didn't want you to

 

Ha, true. Possibly since the MT war has been "resolved" by then, they didn't feel that need anymore and also the Avvar having that means there'd be no opportunity for Lavellan to go "hey, and the third option here is 'be more like us.'

 

Or more likely they didn't consider it and it will be retconned away or forgotten because we don't interact with them much (I imagine the latter). I don't even know who is in charge of keeping track of it all, if there even is a central person, but I imagine with the creative team changing again + new cultures with very different ideas about magic,  it's gonna be even messier in the next game.  Some mess is good, especially about history and culture, because that's realistic, but some is just headache inducing/confusing.

Well, I hope there might be an Avvar origin/background at some point, and if there is, hopefully they won't forget about how they handle mages. In fact, being an Avvar mage would be very interesting if we got to experience learning from a spirit personally. It would be unlike anything we've experienced in DA before. Especially if, say, you are forced into the fray before you part ways with the spirit, and have it as a sort of companion throughout the game. I doubt that will happen, though, because it would be too different from other backgrounds.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's not the future, that's now if Briala has any power.

 

She also might not have any power. But in either case, Briala is Orlesian and The Dales is still part of Orlais. I meant my hypothetical example to be the Dales becoming independent. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Referring to an exchange on the previous page, I know this is an elven support thread but my assertion about Andraste and the location of the Valarian Fields is based off information given in the first few pages of World of Thedas 2, where it is obvious that she never got further north than Nevarra.   After the battle of the Valarian Fields it has the following to say:

 

"The farther into the Imperium Andraste pressed, the more resistance she encountered.   Her army was running out of territories eager to accept liberation.   The closer they came to the heart of the empire, the more they faced the enemy on home ground."  

   

"If Tevinter found its full strength and its people were rallied against this heretic, Andraste, the Alamarri would be faced with a reversal of their success." 

 

So it clearly says that after the Valarian Fields they were not yet in the heart of the Imperium, but the current location of the Valarian Fields is right in front of Minrathous.   Also the Chantry maintain that the victory had been achieved against all the power that the Imperium could muster, which would make sense in front of the gates of Minrathous but the reality was it was strongest resistance of the outlying territories that they had vanquished, not the full might of the Imperium.    I also would again point to the fact that if the victory had been achieved outside Minrathous, then the last thing you would do is retreat hundreds of miles back down south to Nevarra and allow your enemy the opportunity to recover its full strength. 

 

At her execution it says: "The gathered crowd were not citizens of the borders who had felt the sting of the Alamarri, so they held no burning hatred for Our Lady."

 

Again, if the battle of Valarian Fields had been fought in front of Minrathous, then they had felt the sting of the Alamarri.   The Chant also maintains that the combined forces of the Alamarri and the Imperium witnessed her death.    Not so, according to this history.   Her armies were still in the south.   These citizens were people who had suffered nothing in the war and thus were of a mind to feel sympathy for a woman who seemed anything but a barbarian warlord. 

 

It's not obvious she got no further than Nevarra. That very passage is what says she was fighting Tevinter on it's home ground. She might not have conquered all the provinces of Tevinter, but the battle was outside Minrathous.

 

The book says that the reason it was not the full might of the Imperium was because not all magisters were committed to the war, not because it was only the outer provinces. 

[Xilizhra]

She also might not have any power. But in either case, Briala is Orlesian and The Dales is still part of Orlais. I meant my hypothetical example to be the Dales becoming independent. 

Well, with any luck, Orlais will implode in another civil war and the Dales will someday be able to seize independence.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Tale of Illoren doesn't match up with what we know of history at all. How can there be a Dalish Clan roaming the other side of the continent before the fall of the Dales? Much less during a time it would have been a Tevinter province.

 

I still think it's more likely there was a mixup on the writers' part, or the name of the Archdemon is wrong and it was a tale about the Fourth Blight.

 

That said, I think it's silly people seem to be contriving all these unsupported fanon explanations for why Drakon must be a one dimensional monster and why Ameridan is friends with him. He's a politician and a the ruler of an empire. He's not a Sith Lord. He's not a scorpion with uncontrollable imperialist instincts. The fact that he had unified his territory by force, and planned to expand further doesn't mean that he is incapable of not eventually attacking all his neighbors. As I said, an Imperialist can still have allies. There's no reason not to take Ameridan at his word that he at least believed that Drakon could have been loyal to his country. 

 

Drakon conducted the most proactively heroic campaign against the darkspawn in history. Yet the idea that he must have had sinister ulterior motives, appears to be invariably read into his actions. As if saving the Anderfels from total extinction at the hands of blighted monsters could not possibly ever be something he would risk his life for. He could apparently only ever risk his life for selfish reasons. 

 

Even from a meta perspective it seems unlikely that Bioware intended for Drakon to be a type of ruler that was simple hero or monster.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Honestly, I want to hear the Evanuris' side of the story.

 

Even the Temple of Mythal makers them sound pretty bad. But their own Fade Library makes them sound worse than anyone else in present day Thedas.

 

I kinda got the sense that Inquisition was sort of implying that in ancient times, everyone was extremely brutal and ruthless even by modern Thedosian standards.

[Qun00]

I'd like to ask you guys about the two major elfy decisions in DAI while leaving my personal note on each of them.

First, the Well of Sorrows. Yes, it is a leap of faith for anyone to take that risk but it still is hard to roleplay a Lavellan that turns it down.

The Well easily is the most valuable find any Dalish elf has ever come across. The knowledge the Inquisitor could share at the next arlathvhen would bring the Dalish much closer to their goal than they've ever been in all their history. It would change everything.

And then we come to the other decision: To remove or not to remove the vallaslin. I applaud the writers for including the option to say the past is the past and these aren't slave markings anymore, but even then it still seems better to get rid of them.

The Evanuris don't deserve to be honored in any way. The vallaslin tradition may be preserved, but with new designs that would only represent the clan you belong to. And for that, removing the markings you currently wear is necessary.

[Hellion Rex]

I want to know what it was that drove them to "kill" Mythal. Of the Evanuris, she is the most intriguing to me. The entity was driven to Flemeth because Flemeth "knew the hearts of men". It suggests to me that Mythal might have been directly killed by Elgarnan, and I sincerely wonder what would drive the god to kill his wife. Did she betray them or at least did they believe that she had betrayed them?

[Xilizhra]

The Tale of Illoren doesn't match up with what we know of history at all. How can there be a Dalish Clan roaming the other side of the continent before the fall of the Dales? Much less during a time it would have been a Tevinter province.

 

I still think it's more likely there was a mixup on the writers' part, or the name of the Archdemon is wrong and it was a tale about the Fourth Blight.

 

That said, I think it's silly people seem to be contriving all these unsupported fanon explanations for why Drakon must be a one dimensional monster and why Ameridan is friends with him. He's a politician and a the ruler of an empire. He's not a Sith Lord. He's not a scorpion with uncontrollable imperialist instincts. The fact that he had unified his territory by force, and planned to expand further doesn't mean that he is incapable of not eventually attacking all his neighbors. As I said, an Imperialist can still have allies. There's no reason not to take Ameridan at his word that he at least believed that Drakon could have been loyal to his country. 

 

Drakon conducted the most proactively heroic campaign against the darkspawn in history. Yet the idea that he must have had sinister ulterior motives, appears to be invariably read into his actions. As if saving the Anderfels from total extinction at the hands of blighted monsters could not possibly ever be something he would risk his life for. He could apparently only ever risk his life for selfish reasons. 

 

Even from a meta perspective it seems unlikely that Bioware intended for Drakon to be a type of ruler that was simple hero or monster.

Oh, I would never call Drakon a one-dimensional monster. He was a three-dimensional monster. "Ruler of an empire" is a position that rarely accepts anyone without murder in their hearts. And whether or not he would have conquered the Dales himself, the empire he built in his image did.

[Hellion Rex]

I'd like to ask you guys about the two major elfy decisions in DAI while leaving my personal note on each of them.

First, the Well of Sorrows. Yes, it is a leap of faith for anyone to take that risk but it still is hard to roleplay a Lavellan that turns it down.

The Well easily is the most valuable find any Dalish elf has ever come across. The knowledge the Inquisitor could share at the next arlathvhen would bring the Dalish much closer to their goal than they've ever been in all their history. It would change everything.

And then we come to the other decision: To remove or not to remove the vallaslin. I applaud the writers for including the option to say the past is the past and these aren't slave markings anymore, but even then it still seems better to get rid of them.

The Evanuris don't deserve to be honored in any way. The vallaslin tradition may be preserved, but with new designs that would only represent the clan you belong to. And for that, removing the markings you currently wear is necessary.

In regards to the Well's knowledge, for one, we do not know the entirety of what the geas left on the Well entails. It's entirely possible there are some secrets that are forbidden to be shared. And if Morrigan does indeed become the inheritor of what is left of Mythal (as the dev notes might suggest), she may very well be able to bind you similarly as well.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I want to know what it was that drove them to "kill" Mythal. Of the Evanuris, she is the most intriguing to me. The entity was driven to Flemeth because Flemeth "knew the hearts of men". It suggests to me that Mythal might have been directly killed by Elgarnan, and I sincerely wonder what would drive the god to kill his wife. Did she betray them or at least did they believe that she had betrayed them?

Solas seems to imply her pragmatism got in the way of their greed.

[LobselVith8]

The Tale of Illoren doesn't match up with what we know of history at all. How can there be a Dalish Clan roaming the other side of the continent before the fall of the Dales? Much less during a time it would have been a Tevinter province.

 

I still think it's more likely there was a mixup on the writers' part, or the name of the Archdemon is wrong and it was a tale about the Fourth Blight.

 

The usage of terminology to denote that the elves had their own nation would suggest it was meant to be the Second Blight, not the Fourth Blight. It could have been a group of Dalish following a High Keeper. I think the notion of Iloren and some Dalish elves in darkspawn infested Anderfels is quite interesting, and it would be nice to see it explored further. Maybe there's a modern day clan there who are descended from his original group.

 

That said, I think it's silly people seem to be contriving all these unsupported fanon explanations for why Drakon must be a one dimensional monster and why Ameridan is friends with him. He's a politician and a the ruler of an empire. He's not a Sith Lord. He's not a scorpion with uncontrollable imperialist instincts. The fact that he had unified his territory by force, and planned to expand further doesn't mean that he is incapable of not eventually attacking all his neighbors. As I said, an Imperialist can still have allies. There's no reason not to take Ameridan at his word that he at least believed that Drakon could have been loyal to his country. 

 

It's not unsupported that Drakon conquered his neighbors or that he killed thousands of men, women, and children who followed a different faith than the one he wanted to institute. The reason some of us addressed these issues is because we're pointing out that Drakon isn't a saint; he did things that would cause any rational person pause to question trusting him.

 

Drakon conducted the most proactively heroic campaign against the darkspawn in history. Yet the idea that he must have had sinister ulterior motives, appears to be invariably read into his actions. As if saving the Anderfels from total extinction at the hands of blighted monsters could not possibly ever be something he would risk his life for. He could apparently only ever risk his life for selfish reasons. 

 

Even from a meta perspective it seems unlikely that Bioware intended for Drakon to be a type of ruler that was simple hero or monster.

 

Well, in light of Drakon's massacre of the Daughters of Song, I'd say that he doesn't come across all that altruistic to some of us. That's all. You're welcome to disagree.

[Steelcan]

Well, in light of Drakon's massacre of the Daughters of Song, I'd say that he doesn't come across all that altruistic to some of us. That's all. You're welcome to disagree.

yes we've been over this, one ruler destroying a village isn't really reason to say he's the worst thing since the Imperium