1605 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I'd like to ask you guys about the two major elfy decisions in DAI while leaving my personal note on each of them.

First, the Well of Sorrows. Yes, it is a leap of faith for anyone to take that risk but it still is hard to roleplay a Lavellan that turns it down.

The Well easily is the most valuable find any Dalish elf has ever come across. The knowledge the Inquisitor could share at the next arlathvhen would bring the Dalish much closer to their goal than they've ever been in all their history. It would change everything.

 

I agree. I'd certainly like to think that my Lavellan would use the knowledge from the Well to help the Dalish piece together all the history, knowledge, and lessons that were lost so long ago. Part of the goal of the Dalish is to uncover the secrets of the past, and Lavellan can help them in a significant way by accepting the risks in drinking from the Well of Sorrows.

 

And then we come to the other decision: To remove or not to remove the vallaslin. I applaud the writers for including the option to say the past is the past and these aren't slave markings anymore, but even then it still seems better to get rid of them.

The Evanuris don't deserve to be honored in any way. The vallaslin tradition may be preserved, but with new designs that would only represent the clan you belong to. And for that, removing the markings you currently wear is necessary.

 

If the choice had been presented to my character (he was male, so it never happened), my Lavellan wouldn't have accepted the offer to remove them; the fable of Elgar'nan wrestling the sun resonated with my character, and it's part of the reason he chose his vallaslin. The willingness to take on the impossible, so to speak. Your suggestion is certainly something that I think would work well post-Inquisition - adopt new vallaslin designs to start a new era for the Dalish.​

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not unsupported that Drakon conquered his neighbors or that he killed thousands of men, women, and children who followed a different faith than the one he wanted to institute. The reason some of us addressed these issues is because we're pointing out that Drakon isn't a saint; he did things that would cause any rational person pause to question trusting him.

 

 

Well, in light of Drakon's massacre of the Daughters of Song, I'd say that he doesn't come across all that altruistic to some of us. That's all. You're welcome to disagree.

 

But it IS unsupported that Ameridan was only friends with him in order to placate the Chantry, for example.

 

This goes back to my point about him not being one dimensional. I never said he was a Saint, but just because his forces destroyed that village doesn't mean he didn't legitimately want to save the people of the Anderfels. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd like to ask you guys about the two major elfy decisions in DAI while leaving my personal note on each of them.

First, the Well of Sorrows. Yes, it is a leap of faith for anyone to take that risk but it still is hard to roleplay a Lavellan that turns it down.

The Well easily is the most valuable find any Dalish elf has ever come across. The knowledge the Inquisitor could share at the next arlathvhen would bring the Dalish much closer to their goal than they've ever been in all their history. It would change everything.

And then we come to the other decision: To remove or not to remove the vallaslin. I applaud the writers for including the option to say the past is the past and these aren't slave markings anymore, but even then it still seems better to get rid of them.

The Evanuris don't deserve to be honored in any way. The vallaslin tradition may be preserved, but with new designs that would only represent the clan you belong to. And for that, removing the markings you currently wear is necessary.

 

In the case of the Well of Sorrows, my Lavellan could make a case either way. But since I already chose not to drink with my Trevelyan, and my second Inquisitor is currently my only elf, I'd probably chose to drink when I get that far.

 

I still haven't decided if she's going to romance Solas or Josephine, so I might not even get the vallaslin removal scene, but if I did, I would choose to keep them on. The problem is we don't know the full extent of the Evanuris' evil by that point in the story. That only becomes clear in Trespasser. Even then, the markings were such a part of her sense of personal identity I think she would still opt to keep the for herself, only begin to look at them as a mark of shame instead of a mark of pride. And I'd headcanon she would encourage future generations to either not get them or get different markings.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'd like to ask you guys about the two major elfy decisions in DAI while leaving my personal note on each of them.

First, the Well of Sorrows. Yes, it is a leap of faith for anyone to take that risk but it still is hard to roleplay a Lavellan that turns it down.

I don't think it's that hard. I could RP an elf who didn't much care for Dalish culture or even living in the woods. Combine that with the risks involved, and it's fairly easy to do, in fact.

 

I want to know what it was that drove them to "kill" Mythal. Of the Evanuris, she is the most intriguing to me. The entity was driven to Flemeth because Flemeth "knew the hearts of men". It suggests to me that Mythal might have been directly killed by Elgarnan, and I sincerely wonder what would drive the god to kill his wife. Did she betray them or at least did they believe that she had betrayed them?

My guess is that most of the Evanuris were either going to actively use the blight in some capacity, either as a bioweapon or to augment their magic (we know Andruil was heading this way, and Mythal was the one who stopped her), or they were going to indirectly release it by killing Titans. This would fit with Solas' "What the Evanuris, in their greed, could unleash would destroy us all" (paraphrase) codex.

 

Mythal, being if not the best, seemingly the most sane member of the pantheon, opposed them. Maybe she did it directly, fought them, and was defeated, or maybe they struck first because she was becoming a threat. Also, it's possible not all of the Evanuris killed her.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't think it's that hard. I could RP an elf who didn't much care for Dalish culture or even living in the woods. Combine that with the risks involved, and it's fairly easy to do, in fact.

My guess is that most of the Evanuris were either going to actively use the blight in some capacity, either as a bioweapon or to augment their magic (we know Andruil was heading this way, and Mythal was the one who stopped her), or they were going to indirectly release it by killing Titans. This would fit with Solas' "What the Evanuris, in their greed, could unleash would destroy us all" (paraphrase) codex.

Mythal, being if not the best, seemingly the most sane member of the pantheon, opposed them. Maybe she did it directly, fought them, and was defeated, or maybe they struck first because she was becoming a threat. Also, it's possible not all of the Evanuris killed her.

I'm inclined to favor the blight as a weapon theory that you describe here. My question is if it had begun to infect the Evanuris as they tried to use it thus resulting in their attempted murder. It would be a rather large step for Elgarnan to outright murder his wife, in my opinion.

[Hellion Rex]

I'm curious to know what Andruil's Sacrifice was. It sounded like a weapon of last resort, perhaps something kept in secret from the rest of the Evanuris.

Scratch that, it wasn't hidden from Mythal, since her Well revealed it.

Perhaps Mythal had some sort of relationship with Andruil because of that battle the two had.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I had this pet theory that the surviving followers of the Evanuris decided to use propaganda against Fen'harel post Veil. They wore rose-tinted glasses when they spoke fondly of their gods and declared Fenny as the traitorous heathen who lock up the gods.

I honestly wonder just how much agents/surviving followers of the Evanuris have been at play throughout Thedas' history. Could be some of those voices in the Dales Ameridan was trying to work things out with had far more personal reasons to want to stay at odds with a fledgling human nation and to want to maintain a state where Creator worship was the only game in town. (Not to say regular elves from the Imperium's slave pits wouldn't also have that last desire, of course.)

 

Take Gisharel and how she's practically (and a bit oddly, as scholars note in codex entries/WoT) the only source of current Dalish myth regarding the gods. Its too much of a coincidence that the Creators came out looking as rosy as they did, considering how awful most of them apparently were. Also, yeah, Fen'Harel put up the veil and she got that right; but the accompanying gleefulness and maliciousness attributed to him seems pretty damn inaccurate, having met the man myself. And the fact that there are statues of the wolf everywhere, and they're large and in sacred places, gives the impression that even the Dales elves didn't hate Fen'Harel. Its like Solas was well-liked at one point, but no one remembers b/c it was 800 years ago. And then his popularity a nosedive once the Dales fell. And that just happens to coincide with the time Gisharel was keeper of Raleferin and presumably spread her stories? Yeah.

 

I just can't shake the feeling that there have been guiding hands among the elves' throughout history, and they're ancient and have an agenda.

 

Plus it'd be really interesting to be dealing with some Dalish (or non-Dalish) allies to try to stop Solas' plans and have it turn out the person you were working with is some ancient priest of Falon'Din or something who's popped out of uthenera periodically over the last few millenia to try to facilitate the vilification of Fen'Harel and the Evanuris' return.

 

Perhaps Mythal had some sort of relationship with Andruil because of that battle the two had.

I'm inclined to think that Mythal might actually have been her mother, as opposed to it just being a story.

[LobselVith8]

I honestly wonder just how much agents/surviving followers of the Evanuris have been at play throughout Thedas' history. Could be some of those voices in the Dales Ameridan was trying to work things out with had far more personal reasons to want to stay at odds with a fledgling human nation and to want to maintain a state where Creator worship was the only game in town. (Not to say regular elves from the Imperium's slave pits wouldn't also have that last desire, of course.)

 

I don't think there were any at play. The elves went from having their own society to becoming slaves of the Imperium, and then went from having their own nation to having to live as either nomads (constantly on the move in order to survive) or living in dilapidated sections of the city where they might be purged; it's not hard to see the past as being better than the present. Even Solas thinks the past is better than the present, which is why he's willing to destroy the present in an attempt to bring it back, despite how it'll apparently kill everyone currently living in Thedas.

 

Take Gisharel and how she's practically (and a bit oddly, as scholars note in codex entries/WoT) the only source of current Dalish myth regarding the gods.

 

Gisharel isn't the only source of information for the Dalish clans. Gisharel is usually the one noted in the codex entries because he is the only one who spoke to human scholars to try and help humans understand the Dalish. Some Dalish who weren't part of Clan Ralaferin felt this did more harm than good, however. (Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 2, pp. 270-271)

 

Its too much of a coincidence that the Creators came out looking as rosy as they did, considering how awful most of them apparently were.

 

When Merrill prays to Mythal, she cautions against provoking Mythal (which already indicates she's not meant to be taken as a "roses and rainbows" type of god), and mentions how Elgar'nan's actions nearly lead to the death of all life on Thedas because of his anger. It's not like the Dalish thought the Creators were White Hat Good Guys or anything like that. Merrill also mentions that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, which means they considered the possibility that the Creators could have provoked the war.

 

Plus it'd be really interesting to be dealing with some Dalish (or non-Dalish) allies to try to stop Solas' plans and have it turn out the person you were working with is some ancient priest of Falon'Din or something who's popped out of uthenera periodically over the last few millenia to try to facilitate the vilification of Fen'Harel and the Evanuris' return.

 

I'm inclined to think that Mythal might actually have been her mother, as opposed to it just being a story.

 

You know, I'd really love some Dalish allies. Pro-Dalish allies. I'd love to hear some pro-Dalish perspectives, thoughts, views, ideas. The same way we got to hear non-stop pro-Andrastian viewpoints from advisors, companions, and minor characters in Inquisition, whether we wanted to or not, I'd really enjoy some Dalish companions. Having Dalish companions working to help stop Fen'Harel would be nice.

[Gervaise]

I think there is likely to be a difference between how Gisharel would recount their lore to outside scholars and how the Keepers might discuss such things among themselves and the clans.    Take the story of Zathrian.    Apparently once it came out exactly what was going on there, the elders discussed the whole issue at the next Arlathvhen.   A Keeper of another clan puts forward a document giving her thoughts on the matter for consideration.   In it she in no way condones his actions but calls it a "crime against nature", even though she acknowledges his "family was torn apart by human cruelty".   She then goes on to consider more the mind set of someone who had done that.   Now I doubt she would be as candid in her assessment if asked to comment on the matter to a human scholar but might well just state the facts, possibly agreeing it was the wrong thing to do, without being willing to be drawn on the subject.   So it is possible that the Keepers are well aware the Creators weren't perfect, as the tale about Elgar'nan does suggest, but they are just not willing to admit as much to outsiders, particularly if they are trying to get them to respect their beliefs.  

 

It is this measured approach that many of the Keepers do seem to display that makes it entirely possible for a Dalish not to rush into drinking from the Well.   Even the clan in Masked Empire aren't happy about their Keeper summoning a demon in order to gain access to ancient knowledge.   Sometimes it is not worth the risk.   My Lavellans have all weighed up the positives against the negatives and it has actually been harder to justify drinking from the Well.  

 

Postives:    It is knowledge of the ancient elvhen.   It is part of their heritage.   Searching out and preserving knowledge is part of their purpose in life.  It could help them in their fight with Corypheus.   We may need it for other things and there is no guarantee Morrigan is going to stick around.

 

Negatives: Solas does not want to drink (I always have him with Lavellan in the Temple party).  He always seems so interested in learning about the past, so it seems worrying he wants no part of it.    Cole (if in party) warns against it.   He specifically says you don't want all those voices in your head.   Magical knowledge tells you that it is a geas.   So whilst it could help against Corypheus, for all you know it might actually restrict you in some way so you can't.    Abelas also hints that it might be too much for a mortal to take, so may actually kill you.   That is not going to help in any way at all.   Abelas has already said "You are not my People", so clearly he doesn't think being a modern elf is going to give you any advantages.    In any case you will be bound to the will of Mythal.   Whilst Morrigan is rather dismissive of this, you have witnessed how Corypheus can come back from the dead and even Abelas questions whether a god can truly die.   Even if Mythal is dead, the spirits of the priesthood in the Well are very much alive.   So once again it comes back to losing your freewill, which may not be a good thing either personally or in your role as Inquisitor.   Morrigan is willing to drink and seems genuine in desire to defeat Corypheus, so there is someone else available to take the risk.   Cassandra is usually in my party and she advises against it.      Dorian (my male romance) does not want to drink or lose me to the Well.     Whilst part of the Dalish purpose in life is to recover the past, we also have the mantra: "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit".     Binding yourself to someone's will is basically submitting to them.   So on balance, my Lavellan lets Morrigan drink from the Well.  

 

Mind you, if there is no OGB, so no confrontation in the Fade with Mythal, then it is irksome having to listen to Morrigan going on and on about how wonderful it is she now knows so much more about elven lore.  That was annoying, particularly as she doesn't offer to translate those ancient writings for you.   Still, we then encounter Mythal and I no longer had regrets. 

[Gervaise]

I'm pretty sure those wolf statues in the Dales weren't erected by the Dalish, certainly not the huge one perched on top of the mountain.   In any case they use the same statue for the wolves of the Emerald Knights as well as  Fen'Harel, which makes it difficult to sort out which bit of lore each statue corresponds with.     The Emerald Knights had faithful wolf companions, so wolves are regarded in a benevolent light.   

 

Fen'Harel is also seen as something of a guardian, since  his statue is always used on the edge of camp to ward off evil spirits.   So there does seem some residual memory of him as a guardian.     They make offerings to him, of appeasement if nothing else, because as their god of misfortune, they hope he will direct his gaze against someone else.  (Surely his designation as god of misfortune for the elves is entirely appropriate)  They use his name as a curse "may the Dread Wolf take you" but also a sort of inverted blessing "may the Dread Wolf never hear your step".    They seem to particularly fear him in the Fade (which is interesting because that is where he has been residing in uthenera all this time and he did kill Felsassan in the Fade).   Then we discover that the Evanuris gave a specific warning against him which is in line with their beliefs that he is someone who should not be trusted, even if this aspect of trickery manifests as the Dalish saying he tricked the Creators into becoming trapped in the Beyond.

 

I think the complex nature of their relationship with Fen'Harel shows that the Dalish belief system isn't as simple as people assume it is and the reason we haven't been given such insight into their relationship with the other gods, is because the writers haven't chosen to do so.     In game I only knew of Mythal as a protector but the World of Thedas says that the Dalish also see her as the goddess of justice, just like the ancient elves, so they knew that much.  If we had more opportunity to interact with the Dalish, I'm pretty sure they could have made their relationship to and knowledge of the Creators as complex as the one with Fen'Harel.

[Gervaise]

I would also like to hear the Evanuris' side of the story but somehow I don't feel that is going to happen, not in terms of painting them in a better light.   However, I suppose the fact that we are never allowed to ask who exactly was responsible, does leave it open that they may not all have been guilty and Solas was tricked in some way.   The Evanuris is such a catch all term.   The Dalish believe in two sets of gods, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.    The codex in Jaws of Hakkon seems to suggest that at least one of the latter seemed more of a mind set with Solas concerning the status of the Creators and no reason is given for why Andruil was prepared to go hunting them in the Void apart from the fact that she grew bored with hunting her regular prey.

 

We still don't know how Solas managed to entrap the Evanuris.    You think it must have involved some form of trickery, just as the Dalish believe, for him to have been able to shut away all seven at the same time.   Yet the idea he was able to trick them because they trusted him is refuted by the warning given by the Evanuris.    Clearly it involved more than just raising the Veil since they are not wandering around the Fade and in any case it is clear the place he sent them is somewhere far more terrible.

[Qun00]

I don't expect a full reversal. At best, the Evanuris might show redeeming qualities in a Loghain kind of way.

[Hellion Rex]

Meh, considering they were big proponents of slavery, I have yet to see any majorly redeeming qualities in the Evanuris as of now, minus Mythal.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I kind of assume most Elvhen were followers of the Evanuris back in the day, despite how brutal and evil they were. I don't think it's that different from say Tevinter, or even Orlais. Only the most abused lower classes seem to hate their rulers enough to remember the as evil. The middle classes just seem to accept life as the way it is, and the upper classes actively benefited from the status quo.

 

 

When Merrill prays to Mythal, she cautions against provoking Mythal (which already indicates she's not meant to be taken as a "roses and rainbows" type of god), and mentions how Elgar'nan's actions nearly lead to the death of all life on Thedas because of his anger. It's not like the Dalish thought the Creators were White Hat Good Guys or anything like that. Merrill also mentions that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, which means they considered the possibility that the Creators could have provoked the war.

 

Still though, Merril (and Paivel too for that matter) always describe the Creators as looking out for the elves. They never imagined they used them as slaves, hunted them for sport and slaughtered them in massive numbers to feed their ego.

[LobselVith8]

I kind of assume most Elvhen were followers of the Evanuris back in the day, despite how brutal and evil they were. I don't think it's that different from say Tevinter, or even Orlais. Only the most abused lower classes seem to hate their rulers enough to remember the as evil. The middle classes just seem to accept life as the way it is, and the upper classes actively benefited from the status quo.

I like Xil's suggestion of hearing the other side of the story, and for the Creators not to be written as caricatures. It's possible that what Solas claims isn't the entire truth of how things were. It would be disappointing if the Creators were one-dimensional beings (Bethesda has the right idea in not vilifying the main factions simply because you oppose them, like in Fallout 4, or the civil war in Skyrim).

Still though, Merril (and Paivel too for that matter) always describe the Creators as looking out for the elves. They never imagined they used them as slaves, hunted them for sport and slaughtered them in massive numbers to feed their ego.

Merrill described Mythal striking anyone who garnered her fury, so the concept of the Creators being brutal isn't alien to them.

[Qun00]

Meh, considering they were big proponents of slavery, I have yet to see any majorly redeeming qualities in the Evanuris as of now, minus Mythal.

They're like Tevinter magisters. We always hear they are assholes and that is true about most of them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I like Xil's suggestion of hearing the other side of the story, and for the Creators not to be written as caricatures. It's possible that what Solas claims isn't the entire truth of how things were. It would be disappointing if the Creators were one-dimensional beings (Bethesda has the right idea in not vilifying the main factions simply because you oppose them, like in Fallout 4, or the civil war in Skyrim).

 

Do you apply the same line of thinking to Drakon (or any similar Andrastian character)? The Evanuris were immortal god-kings. No way could his list of crimes possibly approach theirs. 

 

Merrill described Mythal striking anyone who garnered her fury, so the concept of the Creators being brutal isn't alien to them.

 

Yes, I know. But the concept of the Creators doing all of those other things that I mentioned is alien to them.

[Hellion Rex]

I like Xil's suggestion of hearing the other side of the story, and for the Creators not to be written as caricatures. It's possible that what Solas claims isn't the entire truth of how things were. It would be disappointing if the Creators were one-dimensional beings (Bethesda has the right idea in not vilifying the main factions simply because you oppose them, like in Fallout 4, or the civil war in Skyrim).


Merrill described Mythal striking anyone who garnered her fury, so the concept of the Creators being brutal isn't alien to them.

It's hardy fair to write them off as one dimensional or caricatures considering we have only met two elven deities so far.

[Gervaise]

On the whole we only have Solas' testimony about the majority of their crimes, plus Morrigan casting aspersions about certain Dalish and the way they honour Andruil, which Lavellan can categorically deny is the case for their clan.   If as seems likely the ancient elves have their origins in spirits, then it is possible that like spirits they are driven by a particular compulsion.   Andruil is compelled to hunt because she is a hunter.   Dirthamen is a god of secrets so keeps his own counsel and probably will not divulge things without certain conditions being met.  (His priesthood seem to have this attitude).   I'm not saying this excuses their actions but it might account for some of their behaviour.

 

Flemeth/Mythal said she just wanted vengeance without saying against whom.    Abelas said Mythal was murdered but does not say who was responsible, just that Fen'Harel was not, because of a specific accusation being made against him.   

 

In the library we have a memory of a large number of elves building a statue to Elgar'nan.   May be they were just his followers and willing to do so.    There are other memories where the elves seem perfectly content.   They are attending lectures, wandering cities and generally acting quite normally.   None of those whose voices are recorded suggest that they are relieved to be rid of the gods; they are just distressed they are no longer around to help.  

 

Even when Felassan is talking to Briala he only points out that there were servants in ancient Arlathan because she had the quaint idea that all the menial tasks were done by magic.    He says that every atrocity that is committed by nobles against servants in Orlais were also committed by elf nobles on elf servants and nobles schemed against one another.   He does not call them slaves.    Now you can argue that the elves in Orlais are little better than slaves and if life for the servant elves in Arlathan was like the conditions in the alienages in southern Thedas, then saying they weren't actually slaves may be simply splitting hairs.  After all, that is Dorian's whole argument in defence of slavery in his country.    Nevertheless, Felassan never calls them slaves and seems to suggest that elven society was no different to modern day societies throughout Thedas.    From that point of view the Evanuris may have been exactly like the Emperor Drakon.   It is noticeable that in all the stories he tells about Fen'Harel he doesn't sound like a noble rebel against oppression but very much the self serving, clever trickster, who helps when it suits him to.

 

It just seems that on one side we have the Dalish,who regard the Creators as teachers and protectors of their subjects and on the other hand you have Solas saying they were corrupt god kings who murdered one of their own out of lust for power.    The Dalish say that the real bad guys were the Forgotten Ones, which seems borne out by the elves that follow them in the Tirashan, but Solas doesn't seem to mention them at all, unless Evanuris refers to the whole pantheon, which seems strange considering Gelduran's opinion of the Creators.     So I would very much like to be able to speak to a third party on the matter, may be consult a spirit of the Fade, although, according to Solas, even their testimony may be biased.   The Evanruis may be just as bad as Solas claims but I don't like condemning a whole group on the word of a person who has constantly been shown as evasive and sparing with the truth and will stop at nothing to fulfil his own agenda.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Felessan does not call them slaves. But we learn repeatedly in the game that there were. The elves that built the statue of Elgar'nan were all slaves. Solas says they were slaves. The Fade Library says they were slaves. The Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf says they were slaves. And he led the slaves that rebelled against the cruelty of the Evanuris.

 

I don't think the implication was that all elves were slaves to the Evanruis, but in that sense it isn't really much different from Tevinter. Tevinter, Orlais, and the Elvhenan all have multiple social classes. The ones where the elves were content were likely the upper or middle classes.

 

Most spirits are simple, but given that we know of fade beings that are not (Imshael, for instance) I don't think that was the case with the Evanuris. Especially since Solas seems to realize that the world that now exists is as valid as the one he used to know on the basis that the Inquisitor is not a one dimensional black and white figure.

[Gervaise]

Even Imshael is bound by his sphere of patronage.   As he keeps on insisting, he is a "choice" spirit and keeps engineering situations where his victim will be forced to make a choice.   There is no right or wrong decision in this; simply that he requires you to make one.   Naturally he prefers it if the choice favours him.   That is what I am getting at.  

 

I think the truth is that the society very much was like that of Tevinter because the early Tevene probably modelled themselves on what they had managed to learn about elven society.   So there were Evanuris (Magisters) at the top; then noble elves (Altus); lesser nobles (Laetans) and finally the servant/slave class.  Naturally there were no Soporati because everyone had magical ability to a greater or lesser extent.     This seems to be more how Felassan describes it.  However, he also said this was a time when there were no other races except elves, so may have been the situation when the Evanuris was just respected elders and had not yet claimed the mantle of godhood.

 

However, I would point out that there are only very few references to them actually being labelled slave that do not come from Solas.    The memory in the library about the people variously described as "servants" when they start building the statue and "slaves" at the end is not attributed to anyone in particular but then we say to him at the end what we have seen and it is implied those memories were either his own or those of his friends.    The Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf has the message of Solas and his followers.     It also says that the Evanuris enslaved tens of thousands, with no mention of those who were not slaves.    It speaks of the Evanuris marking their slaves with vallaslin, which makes me think that by this point Solas and his friends regard anyone who is loyal to the Evanuris as a slave.    Of course it may be that by this stage everyone under the rulership of the Evanuris effectively was a slave.        So it is not so much a denial that probably it will turn out that this depiction of the Evanuris is true, it just rankles that we do not have any independent confirmation of the fact.

 

Still, I suppose Flemeth's words in DA2 might count as that source:  "Then rise, the People are too quick to bow the knee".    May be this is Mythal acknowledging that the people accepted the claims of divinity far too easily and thus made it easy for the Evanuris to enslave them.     I also have this niggling idea that the parallel that sometimes seems to be there between Mythal and Andraste is that back in the time of the Evanuris it was actually Mythal who finally accepted that something needed to be done to curb their power, joined with Fen'Harel, gave him the orb for safe keeping whilst she went for a parlay with the other gods (she's always had a degree of foresight) and was then betrayed by one of their number (Elgar'nan?) that led to hear death.

[The Ascendant]

Say what you will about the Evanuris, but at least they exist, which is more than can be said about the Maker.

[Gervaise]

That is true and funnily enough I always thought that they would probably turn out to be very powerful mages or something similar, with a strong spiritual dimension, particularly after Jaws of Hakkon, when we discover about how the Avaar gods came to be.   The Dalish might not appreciate quite what their gods were like but they aren't just some story they made up and they did seem to have awesome power that to any modern Thedosian would seem godlike.  

 

I've just realised that Felassan was probably describing the situation before the war that led to godhood.   He says there were no humans or dwarves, just elves, but we know that the elves had made contact with the dwarves during the time of the Evanuris.   It seems likely that the war that started their rise to godhood was the battle with the Titans.    In which case the society was still stratified before then but it was following the war that the adulation and respect the Creators received gradually went to their heads and they starting regarding everyone as lesser beings. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Even Imshael is bound by his sphere of patronage.   As he keeps on insisting, he is a "choice" spirit and keeps engineering situations where his victim will be forced to make a choice.   There is no right or wrong decision in this; simply that he requires you to make one.   Naturally he prefers it if the choice favours him.   That is what I am getting at.  

 

 

So then what is Solas bound by? Does he just have an uncontrollable desire to rebel against society and destroy the world?

 

However, I would point out that there are only very few references to them actually being labelled slave that do not come from Solas.    The memory in the library about the people variously described as "servants" when they start building the statue and "slaves" at the end is not attributed to anyone in particular but then we say to him at the end what we have seen and it is implied those memories were either his own or those of his friends.    The Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf has the message of Solas and his followers.     It also says that the Evanuris enslaved tens of thousands, with no mention of those who were not slaves.    It speaks of the Evanuris marking their slaves with vallaslin, which makes me think that by this point Solas and his friends regard anyone who is loyal to the Evanuris as a slave.    Of course it may be that by this stage everyone under the rulership of the Evanuris effectively was a slave.        So it is not so much a denial that probably it will turn out that this depiction of the Evanuris is true, it just rankles that we do not have any independent confirmation of the fact.

 

That's still a clear testimony that they were slaves. The memory not having a named author does not mean it is unreliable. And the Dread Wolf's followers were rebel slaves. The records of the temple didn't make up their own enslavement for your benefit. 

 

Say what you will about the Evanuris, but at least they exist, which is more than can be said about the Maker.

 

We don't know whether the Maker exists or not. We know that the Evanuris are evil false gods. That means, so far, Bioware has made the truth of Andrastianism unclear, and the elven religion explicitly false.

[LobselVith8]

Do you apply the same line of thinking to Drakon (or any similar Andrastian character)? The Evanuris were immortal god-kings. No way could his list of crimes possibly approach theirs.

I apply Drakon's actions as the reason any neighboring kingdom would be wary of him, which I've already explained.

Yes, I know. But the concept of the Creators doing all of those other things that I mentioned is alien to them.

Depending on what turns out to be the actual truth. Of course, the Dalish are cognizant about the limitations of their knowledge, as Merrill explains. Part of their goal is to uncover the past because they are aware that they don't know it all. The Dalish codex about the fall of Arlathan is addressed as a legend, and something that is acknowledged as a story that could be wrong.