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[The Ascendant]

I wouldn't really call them false. They definitely exist, and their power is very real. They were not born Divine true, but doesn't that them more admirable? They worked for their power on merit and earned it, not just because they are Gods. Even if the Maker was real, I don't think he deserves to be worshipped any more than the Evanuris do. I respect them, but that is it.
Did the Evanuris ever have children? In a lot of mythologies you have stories of demigod heroes and heroines who embody the best or worst traits of mortals and immortals. Were there any Elves like that in the time before the Veil, and is there a possibility that their descendants could still live?

[LobselVith8]

It's hardy fair to write them off as one dimensional or caricatures considering we have only met two elven deities so far.

You misunderstood. I'm addressing the scenario if we meet the Creators, which is why I said I'd prefer to see them as three-dimensional characters and not merely as caricatures or Saturday Morning Cartoons who can't be taken seriously.

Bethesda had an excellent approach with the civil war in Skyrim and the major factions in Fallout 4. The faction you ended up opposing didn't turn into a monster or a silly villain simply because you elected to oppose their group.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I wouldn't really call them false. They definitely exist, and their power is very real. They were not born Divine true, but doesn't that them more admirable?

 

No, because that makes them egomaniacal impostors. But I have a feeling there would be no point in continuing this particular line of discussion because we aren't even going to agree on a basis for what is or is not admirable. 

 

 

Bethesda had an excellent approach with the civil war in Skyrim and the major factions in Fallout 4. The faction you ended up opposing didn't turn into a monster or a silly villain simply because you elected to oppose their group.

 

But that's a faction you can choose right? If we encounter the Evanuris, they are likely to be mandatory enemies. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Say what you will about the Evanuris, but at least they exist, which is more than can be said about the Maker.

 

The Maker might be the Sun from the Elven legends.

 

also known as the All-Father, the Eldest of the Sun and He Who Overthrew His Father

 

Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched. As a gift to Elgar'nan, the land brought forth great birds and beasts of sky and forest, and all manner of wonderful green things.

 

He was the first of the elven gods, born of the sun and the earth. According to Elven legend, the sun grew jealous of the favor shown by Elgar'nan for the things of the earth, and so burned them to ashes. In retaliation, Elgar'nan threw the sun down from the sky, and only later relented because of Mythal's intervention. He was convinced, with her help, to restore his father to the sky on the promise that the sun would set each night. With the aid of Mythal and his parents, Elgar'nan remade the world.Most elves will invoke Elgar'nan's name when they seek retribution.

 

Source:- http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Elgar'nan

 

The Andrastian Chantry depicts the Maker as the Sun. Coincidence ? I think not. Additionally, the Maker apparently made his first children in his image. Ancient Elves were known for their spiritual nature.

 

Source:- http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Maker

 

Furthermore, Solas refers to the Evanuris as the first of the Elvhen or to use his words:- "The first of my people". If the Evanuris were the first Elves, that makes Elgar'nan's father, the Sun, to be the progenitor of the Elvhen. The Evanuris were the first of the Sun's children.

 

Source:-

 

 

The Maker's first children were spirits. The Evanuris were both creatures of flesh and spiritual creatures. Cole is a classic example of a spirit taking mortal form.

 

As for the Land in the Elven legends, I would hazard a guess that the Land refers to the Titan. It could very well refer to the progenitor of all Titans. However, how can a the interaction between Titan and proto-spirit give rise to an Elf ?

 

The answer lies with Lyrium Ghost Leliana.

 

 

"The Lyrium sang thought into being. Now time is stale, and the melody is called elsewhere. Until I am needed, I am free."

 

Source:-

 

 

As for why the Elgar'nan chose to take on the form of an Elf when he chose to become a creature of flesh, I suspect he got the inspiration from the Dwarves, who were living within the Titans all this time. Ever notice that Elves are the exact physical opposite of Dwarves ? Elves are lean and slim, Dwarves are short and stocky. Dwarves have hair everywhere, Elves only have hair on their scalp and pubic hair (Sera romance).

 

On a related note, Bioware lore and stories have many parallels to other fictional material and the real world.

 

We know that the Andrastian Chantry is modeled somewhat after Christianity. We also know that Christianity incorporates many elements of pagan sun worship within its teachings and practices.

 

Similarly, in Thedas, the concept of a single monotheistic god has long existed before the Andrastian Chantry and the Chantry later incorporated this god and called him the Maker.

 

As for the Evanuris, their story is rather reminiscent of the Olympians. The Elgar'nan - Sun dynamic is quite reminiscent of Zeus - Chronos dynamic.

[Hellion Rex]

In regards to the nature of the Evanuris' nature, what you have posted is merely supposition. We do not have any evidence definitively showing them to be spirits that took elven form.

[LobselVith8]

But that's a faction you can choose right? If we encounter the Evanuris, they are likely to be mandatory enemies. 

 

Yes, they are factions you can choose to side with - their DLC, Far Harbor, did the same with the main factions on the island. It's complicated, not black or white. I prefer Bethesda's approach to the main factions: flawed but well-meaning factions, and no one is needlessly vilified simply to make it easier for you to oppose them once you take a different ideological stance than the one they take.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah but isn't it like that so they can still be a viable choice for you to support? Mandatory villains like Corypheus don't necessarily need to be like that. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I don't think there were any at play.

And, given the revelation that we have at least 15 or so ancient elves still alive and kicking, and that all the elves were immortal at the time, and that the Evanuris would have have their followers and that number likely outnumbered Solas' people, I find it hard to believe there haven't been any.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Given Abelas' attitude, it seems unlikely any Ancient Elves that follow the Evanuris would care about what went on in the Dales.

[LobselVith8]

Yeah but isn't it like that so they can still be a viable choice for you to support? Mandatory villains like Corypheus don't necessarily need to be like that. 

 

I suppose I find Bethesda's approach more interesting because I find their faction dynamics more intriguing than villains like Corypheus, and some of his henchmen came across as a bit one-dimensional.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Given Abelas' attitude, it seems unlikely any Ancient Elves that follow the Evanuris would care about what went on in the Dales.

Well, he doesn't necessarily represent every ancient's views on the matter, does he? Particularly those that might have been more exposed to the outside world.

 

Plus, Abelas' god is gone, and murdered by one or more of the other gods to boot. Its not surprising he'd have zero interest in recreating the society that was lost or helping bring the Evanuris back to power somehow. He was only concerned with hanging on to his mission and guarding what he had. But where there's a few dozen Ancient survivors, there are likely more and they could very well have different priorities than the embittered captain of the guard of a dead goddess.

[IHaveReturned1999]

But why didn't they create the elves to be PoC in the first place? I think that if they do that and they shown how they are treated and they are a person of color the game will not sell one copy, and the elves represent the homogenized PoC who were oppressed by discrimination all over the world and history of slavery and extermination proves it. I think they don't want to really do it because they don't want to rock the boat by showing how it reflects the issues of the real world and people denying it.

That does make a lot of sense...it explains why David "confirms" the elves are Jewish, because of it and they don't want to bring distortion of real history based on that.

[LobselVith8]

That does make a lot of sense...it explains why David "confirms" the elves are Jewish, because of it and they don't want to bring distortion of real history based on that.

Gaider has mentioned Jewish people and Native Americans as the inspiration for elements of elven culture across different areas of the Internet over the years (including the now defunct Dragon Central forum). Is this what you mean? Or have I misunderstood what you were trying to convey?

[Steelcan]

That does make a lot of sense...it explains why David "confirms" the elves are Jewish, because of it and they don't want to bring distortion of real history based on that.

making an alt won't fool anyone, we know its you N7Phantom

[MisterJB]

Well, with any luck, Orlais will implode in another civil war 

 

Oh, I would never call Drakon a one-dimensional monster. He was a three-dimensional monster. "Ruler of an empire" is a position that rarely accepts anyone without murder in their hearts. And whether or not he would have conquered the Dales himself, the empire he built in his image did.

You are really not in any position to admonish people for their warmongering and conqueror ways. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

making an alt won't fool anyone, we know its you N7Phantom

This isn't even his first alt. His other one is Erzulie412 and his only post on that alt was agreeing with himself. 

[Gervaise]

The increasingly isolationist attitude of the Dalish did in fact seem to reflect that of the ancient elves.  I don't just mean Abelas but the inhabitants of Arlathan Forest.   Of course we only have scant information about them and that may once again have been the propaganda of the victors.   So the Tevene say they had no idea there were any elves in the forest and when they discovered there were, they initially sent peace envoys and only after these did not return and other people disappeared or were found dead, they decided to take action.  Still giving Tevinter the benefit of the doubt, what occurred in Arlathan Forest when they intruded was exactly the same as occurred in the Arbor Wilds.   So were these another enclave of ancient elves who only awoke to repel intruders?   They certainly had very strong magic if they could maintain a stalemate with the Tevinter Imperium for 6 years.

 

Of course, what mitigates this idea is the fact that it is claimed it was the surviving elves fleeing from there that formed the bulk of their slave workforce after that.   This would run into thousands, suggesting that was more than some cell of ancient ones.   I wonder if further back there had been more interaction with the early humans, then they started catching humans diseases (the origin of the idea that the humans were responsible for their mortality) and were also worried when they discovered that all human/elf matings looked like humans, so they withdrew from contact.    There may still have been some ancient ones in the settlement and the modern elves were effectively serving them by caring for them while they were in uthenera.   The ancient ones were buried when the city sank and it was the modern ones who escaped.    Since these ancient ones were likely the followers of other gods, this would explain the fond memories of the Creators among the survivors that were enslaved by Tevinter, the idea of Fen'Harel as the enemy and all the other fragments of lore that eventually found their way down to the Dalish..

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, he doesn't necessarily represent every ancient's views on the matter, does he? Particularly those that might have been more exposed to the outside world.

 

Plus, Abelas' god is gone, and murdered by one or more of the other gods to boot. Its not surprising he'd have zero interest in recreating the society that was lost or helping bring the Evanuris back to power somehow. He was only concerned with hanging on to his mission and guarding what he had. But where there's a few dozen Ancient survivors, there are likely more and they could very well have different priorities than the embittered captain of the guard of a dead goddess.

 

That's true, of course, but it does suggest an attitude that might be very prevalent among ancient elves. Abelas seemed to look down on other on the basis of them not being immortal, rather than their religious beliefs.

 

Even Solas killed Felessan essentially for choosing to side with present day elves over the ancient ones.

[LobselVith8]

You are really not in any position to admonish people for their warmongering and conqueror ways. 

 

That's odd, I don't recall Xil creating a nation through conquest.

[Steelcan]

That's odd, I don't recall Xil creating a nation through conquest.

advocating for the creation of dystopian horrors through the use of extreme military force on the other hand....

[Gervaise]

Someone asked what Solas' compulsion might be.   He could well be a spirit of rebellion or possibly freedom, since he does hold personal freedom very dear to his heart.   However, may be he originally was a spirit of intrigue.   That would fit the idea of the trickster, some of the stories that Felassan tells and the fact that Solas was really turned on by the political machinations of the Winter  Palace.     After all, it is not clear exactly when he set up his refuge for runaway slaves, but he admits he only felt compelled to move against the Evanuris directly after they had killed Mythal.    So there had to be a considerable period of time when they were ruling as god kings and he seemed content to let them do so.    He even seemed to be working with Mythal.   May be he wasn't so much a body guard as a spy master.   I can't remember clearly (will have to go and check) but is he shown on her right or left hand?    Based off the people working for the Divine, the right hand always seems the main body guard who visibly protects them, whilst the left is the one who moves in the shadows.

[Gervaise]

Anyone got any theories why the constellation Silentir which is thought to depict Mythal, likely true since it is variously a dragon in flight or a figure with scales of justice, should have ended up being associated with and named after Dumat?   Just an unhappy coincidence or something more?   I know the writers do seem to like to tease us with red herrings but sometimes they turn out to have been genuine clues after all. 

[The Ascendant]

Do you think that the imprisonment of the Evanuris has changed them? Imprisoned people can change and being locked away for millennia could have made them better or worse.

[Gervaise]

I don't think being imprisoned for millennia is going to have made them any better.  If they were the proud, arrogant, ruthless god kings that he describes, then I doubt prison will have humbled them and made them repent of their actions.    I would think that either they fought until only one was left standing or simply went stark staring bonkers.   

 

Assuming they have still got their mental faculties pretty much in tact, then even if they weren't as bad as he claimed, I should think they will have a very big grudge against the person who put them there and they may have been in semi-dormant state simply building up their power waiting for the day they would be released.    So bad news for their jailor and anyone else who gets in their way.

[Xilizhra]

You are really not in any position to admonish people for their warmongering and conqueror ways. 

You're implying that I'd want to conquer Orlais.That's not remotely the case.