1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Do you think that the imprisonment of the Evanuris has changed them? Imprisoned people can change and being locked away for millennia could have made them better or worse.

In part, I would imagine that they'd be very, very pissed off entities, to say the least. And that hatred and rage hasn't been able to do much but fester.

[Hellion Rex]

Also, I'd imagine they've gonna kinda Fruit Loops.

[Xilizhra]

In part, I would imagine that they'd be very, very pissed off entities, to say the least. And that hatred and rage hasn't been able to do much but fester.

Cole said that they sleep. It's quite possible that they won't even have experienced the passing time.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it's possible they won't be completely insane because they could slumber like Fen'Harel did, but I'm going to work with the assumption that they are going to be preeeetty mad. 

 

And Solas seems to be perfectly knowledgeable about modern Thedas, despite waking only recently so I think he experienced the passing of the ages in his dreams.

[MisterJB]

You're implying that I'd want to conquer Orlais.That's not remotely the case.

1-Yes, it is.

"Dales seizing independence" actually means elves conquering Orlesian territory.

 

2-I wasn't, actually. I was stating the fact that wanting Orlesians to die in droves disqualifies you from holding some moral high ground over Drakon.

 

 

[MisterJB]

That's odd, I don't recall Xil creating a nation through conquest.

 

"I wouldn't personally kill an Orlesian but I sure has hell wouldn't mind if they all *bleeping* died so my cultural paradigma could reign supreme."

 

It's the difference between terrorists and those who cheer them on.
 

[Xilizhra]

1-Yes, it is.

"Dales seizing independence" actually means elves conquering Orlesian territory.

 

2-I wasn't, actually. I was stating the fact that wanting Orlesians to die in droves disqualifies you from holding some moral high ground over Drakon.

1. Only if a different elf overthrew the current Dales liege. If the Dales liege is an elf (an Orlesian one at that), no conquest occurred if she keeps it.

 

2. Well, ideally Orlais would grant its independence, but that seemed less likely.

 

 

"I wouldn't personally kill an Orlesian but I sure has hell wouldn't mind if they all *bleeping* died so my cultural paradigma could reign supreme."

 

It's the difference between terrorists and those who cheer them on.
 

A cultural paradigm already built on mountains of skulls, that continues to gather them via the remarkably frequent oppression and murder of various elves?

[MisterJB]

1. Only if a different elf overthrew the current Dales liege. If the Dales liege is an elf (an Orlesian one at that), no conquest occurred if she keeps it.

Ah, so it's not even sometime in the future. It's wanting for a nation that is just beginning to rebuild itself to have to go through another civil war which is, what, ten times worse?

 

Also, yes, yes it would. The Dales is not Briala's, it belongs to the Orlesian Empire and Crown. Taking advantage of the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Orlesians in order to wrestle away authority is an act of aggression by any definition.

 

 

2. Well, ideally Orlais would grant its independence, but that seemed less likely.

 

A cultural paradigm already built on mountains of skulls, that continues to gather them via the remarkably frequent oppression and murder of various elves?

First, I obviously meant the elven cultural paradigma in my previous post.

 

Second, none of this is even a denial of "I want Orlesians to kill each other by the tens of thousands or more."

[Xilizhra]

Ah, so it's not even sometime in the future. It's wanting for a nation that is just beginning to rebuild itself to have to go through another civil war which is, what, ten times worse?

Well, if Briala's in charge of her own succession, I strongly suspect another elf would follow her.

 

 

Also, yes, yes it would. The Dales is not Briala's, it belongs to the Orlesian Empire and Crown. Taking advantage of the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Orlesians in order to wrestle away authority is an act of aggression by any definition.

That's like saying that the Americans "conquered" the British colonies in the Revolutionary War, which strikes me as a gross misuse of the word "conquer."

 

 

First, I obviously meant the elven cultural paradigma in my previous post.

 

Second, none of this is even a denial of "I want Orlesians to kill each other by the tens of thousands or more."

Basically, the status quo is no better, and in net terms of lives lost, is ultimately worse. Which is the point, really; I want the net number of lives saved to be higher.

[MisterJB]

That's like saying that the Americans "conquered" the British colonies in the Revolutionary War, which strikes me as a gross misuse of the word "conquer."

"Sure, I require the deaths of the people whose land I'm supposedly not stealing but that's not conquest, I swear"

 

Basically, the status quo is no better, and in net terms of lives lost, is ultimately worse. Which is the point, really; I want the net number of lives saved to be higher.

No, you want for the "oppressed" group you identify with to reach some goal you came up with for them and don't care how many people have to die because they're not part of said group.

[Sports72Xtrm]

According to the elves, if you go back far enough, wasn't all Thedas land elven land? So technically, it's humans that are trespassing.

[Gwydden]

According to the elves, if you go back far enough, wasn't all Thedas land elven land? So technically, it's humans that are trespassing.

If you go back far enough, isn't every piece of Earth dinosaur land? For shame, humans, for shame!

 

PS: Naturally, chickens and ostriches are the rightful rulers of the planet.

[Sports72Xtrm]

If you go back far enough, isn't every piece of Earth dinosaur land? For shame, humans, for shame!

 

PS: Naturally, chickens and ostriches are the rightful rulers of the planet.

And if they were as intelligent as humans or more they would be. At least the claim would hold some weight. If an alien with dinosaur ancestry invaded earth, well, it's their armies that will do the talking.

[LobselVith8]

"Sure, I require the deaths of the people whose land I'm supposedly not stealing but that's not conquest, I swear"

 

I don't see what's wrong with Xil thinking that it would be nice for the elves to have a home where they can prosper, and not be killed in purges (like the one in Denerim that also wiped out an orphanage of children) or killed during the chevalier initiation rites simply because they are elves. Briala becoming the elven Marquise of the Dales is already a step in that direction.

 

No, you want for the "oppressed" group you identify with to reach some goal you came up with for them and don't care how many people have to die because they're not part of said group.

 

And you supported the templars during the Mage-Templar War, when the templars were fighting and killing mages for a specific goal, so I don't see how you can vilify Xil for wanting to give the elves at least one safe place on the entire continent for the elves to reside in (much less when she's already addressed that Briala becoming the first elven Marquise of the Dales is already a step towards that goal).

[Gwydden]

And if they were as intelligent as humans or more they would be. At least the claim would hold some weight. If an alien with dinosaur ancestry invaded earth, well, it's their armies that will do the talking.

You racist mother#$^&! 

 

My point is, people don't have more of a claim to a piece of land just because their ancestors have lived there for longer. I find that, and other attempts to assign privilege or guilt based on ancestry, to be a hopelessly passé and feudal attitude.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If there was a populist independence movement in Halamshiral that somehow succeeded where where the previous rebellions failed, then I'd say that could be a new elven state that could be achieved without conquest. If they tried to restore all the entire territory of the old Dales, (which I'm pretty sure includes at least modern day Lydes and Verchiel) then I'd say they'd probably have to be conquerors to do it. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

The elves of the South could retake their lost lands with Qunari support. Since southern Thedas is so prejudiced against the elves, surely the Qun would provide them a fairer life than what the Orlesians offer, in the event that Briala's rebellion failed.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Qunari would only support elves who wish to bring Thedas to the Qun, they would not support elven nationalism. Not all elves will be that thrilled with becoming Qunari.

 

In any event though, it's largely moot. The Dales is too far away from Par Vollen for the Antaam to make a meaningful difference, unless a war with the nations of Thedas is going so well that they probably don't even need elven help.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Qunari would only support elves who wish to bring Thedas to the Qun, they would not support elven nationalism. Not all elves will be that thrilled with becoming Qunari.

 

In any event though, it's largely moot. The Dales is too far away from Par Vollen for the Antaam to make a meaningful difference, unless a war with the nations of Thedas is going so well that they probably don't even need elven help.

But all elves could agree that the Qunari treat their elves more fairly than the Orlesians who kill them for sport and prostitute them to their chevaliers. Since Andrastianism is so exclusive, erasing Shartan from the Chant and putting humans above elves and the alienage provides little protection from the humans' cruelty, why would the elves logically be loyal to that savagery of the humans they must endure in comparison to the fairer life that Tallis lives? The South isn't too far south if they had a nation like Halamshiral acting as saboteurs on the Qunari's behalf. Elven Qunari agents infiltrated the Inquisition, what could their armies accomplish if they had elven spies and assassins in all of the nobles' households? Last time they had elven spies, they almost assassinated all of the Southern Thedas' leadership using only Kirkwall elves. And unless Briala is made a noble, they just been slighted by Empress Celene and Gaspard offers them no mercy either. There's no logical reason for the Qunari  to dismiss elven converts, the Qun takes everyone if they volunteer and if they don't the Qunari are not above killing those that deny the Qun to protect those that do convert.

[Steelcan]

But all elves could agree that the Qunari treat their elves more fairly than the Orlesians who kill them for sport and prostitute them to their chevaliers. Since Andrastianism is so exclusive, erasing Shartan from the Chant and putting humans above elves and the alienage provides little protection from the humans' cruelty, why would the elves logically be loyal to that savagery of the humans they must endure in comparison to the fairer life that Tallis lives? The South isn't too far south if they had a nation like Halamshiral acting as saboteurs on the Qunari's behalf. Elven Qunari agents infiltrated the Inquisition, what could their armies accomplish if they had elven spies and assassins in all of the nobles' households? Last time they had elven spies, they almost assassinated all of the Southern Thedas' leadership using only Kirkwall elves. And unless Briala is made a noble, they just been slighted by Empress Celene and Gaspard offers them no mercy either. There's no logical reason for the Qunari  to dismiss elven converts, the Qun takes everyone if they volunteer and if they don't the Qunari are not above killing those that deny the Qun to protect those that do convert.

not all elves think their lot in life is so terrible that they'd be better as slaves under the Qun

[Sports72Xtrm]

not all elves think their lot in life is so terrible that they'd be better as slaves under the Qun

Tallis was a slave and she loves the Qun. Inescapable poverty and persecution is worse than what the Qun offers. And last I check, Halamshiral elves rebelled for a justified reason. It wasn't content.

[Steelcan]

Tallis was a slave and she loves the Qun. Inescapable poverty and persecution is worse than what the Qun offers. And last I check, Halamshiral elves rebelled for a justified reason. It wasn't content.

Sure some elves will do well and can and do flock to it.  But just because the elves are marginalized doesn't mean they can't be faithful Andrastians, or not want to work in the mines under the Qun.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Sure some elves will do well and can and do flock to it.  But just because the elves are marginalized doesn't mean they can't be faithful Andrastians, or not want to work in the mines under the Qun.

There's no incentive to be a faithful Andrastian. They can't be a noble, they can't be a priest (unless Leliana is Divine)- they can only be a servant to the humans, a criminal, or if they're lucky a merchant with an economy biased against them. Under the Qunari, they can be priest, they can be an assassin, they can be a warrior, they can be a spy. Most of them won't even be working in the mines since elves are lithe and have little muscle. Some of the humans will though.

[Steelcan]

There's no incentive to be a faithful Andrastian. They can't be a noble, they can't be a priest, they can only be a servant to the humans. Under the Qunari, they can be priest, they can be an assassin, they can be a warrior, they can be a spy. Most them won't even be working in the mines since elves are lithe and have little muscle.

you clearly don't really understand how faith works.

 

I'm not going to say that elves have any advantages under the Chantry, but the alternatives for them are significantly worse, and if I need to explain why the Qun isn't a really good solution I'd recommend you consider buying https://www.amazon.c...1&keywords=1984

[Sports72Xtrm]

you clearly don't really understand how faith works.

 

I'm not going to say that elves have any advantages under the Chantry, but the alternatives for them are significantly worse, and if I need to explain why the Qun isn't a really good solution I'd recommend you consider buying https://www.amazon.c...1&keywords=1984

Lol ironic. You know how the book ends right? " Winston feels he has at last ended his "stubborn, self-willed exile", exile from the love of Big Brother—a love Winston returns quite happily as he looks up in admiration at a portrait of Big Brother." Big Brother- or in this the context The Qun- wins because Winston embraces the concept of "Big Brother" at the end.